ICANN Public Meeting Transcript 

Meeting Held in Cambridge, Massachusetts
Saturday, November 14, 9:00 am - 4:00 pm

Contact Information    Archive    Main ICANN site 
Introduction    Open Comments    Representation    Supporting Organizations    Transparency


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             1                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you, Charlie. 

             2      First, as you may have noticed, due to the amazing

             3      amount of technology in the room, everything is

             4      being taped, transcribed, broadcast live on the

             5      Net, bounced around various satellites.  Carl

             6      Auerback had kindly offered to have set up an

             7      M-bone connection, which did not quite come

             8      together.  There is a missing server of some kind. 

             9      If anybody has it, please talk to Carl, but it is

            10      too late now for there to be a successful M-bone

            11      connection.  But we do apparently have a real

            12      network speed going out, and the trick to it is

            13      not to speak too closely to the mic, but to speak

            14      forcefully, loudly and to have good substance as

            15      well.

            16                 AUDIENCE:  And without excessive

            17      pauses.

            18                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  And without excessive

            19      pauses as well.

            20                 AUDIENCE:  It turns off mid-sentence --

            21                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Talk about the tail

            22      wagging the dog here.  That's what the technology

            23      demands if you want to be -- oh, and John

            24      Willbanks, also of the Berkman Center, is saying



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             1      everything is fine.

             2                 MR. WILLBANKS:  Yes.

             3                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Great.  Also, you'll

             4      notice that there are comment forms in the

             5      binders.  You can fill them out at your leisure

             6      through the afternoon as you're sort of doodling,

             7      picking thoughts, coming up with stuff.  You can

             8      turn that in after.  We plan to take this briefing

             9      book and turn it into the proceedings of the

            10      meeting, which will include any of the comments

            11      that have arrived by whatever media they have

            12      arrived coming out of this meeting and some time

            13      period after that.

            14                 Also, I believe you'll notice that we

            15      have a scribe here.  The scribe will be doing his

            16      best to capture what's going on, not just to have

            17      a list of names as people speak, but to put it

            18      in -- other than this great transcript we're

            19      getting, put it in some form that's actually

            20      lending help to the meeting itself as we go

            21      forward.  Obviously that's a function of

            22      translation.  He can do it wrong, it can be

            23      somehow inexact, so bear with him.  You may want

            24      to correct him, if need be.  Otherwise, there will



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             1      be opportunity at the breaks or after the meeting

             2      to actually talk to the scribe and make changes to

             3      the record.

             4                 Let's see.  We also have, just within

             5      moments, the open agenda part of the meeting. 

             6      This is just an open time where I know people have

             7      been -- there's apparently a box.  Has the box

             8      already gone where it needs to be?  Is it still --

             9      there's a box somewhere with the slips that people

            10      fill out and put in the box, so we're going to

            11      take that and put that over to our team here, who,

            12      without any regard for what name is on the slip,

            13      will pull it out and start getting maybe a list of

            14      five people so we know who's up next and then

            15      who's on deck to speak.  There's a lot of names,

            16      not a lot of time relative to the names.  It could

            17      go all day on the open part of the meeting.

            18                 Also realize there are the three

            19      substantive areas, you'll see those in Esther's

            20      welcome letter, the three agenda items.  The idea

            21      is to, during the agenda times for the substantive

            22      items, stick to those items.  During the open time

            23      now, say whatever's on your mind, ask whatever's

            24      on your mind of the Board, and realize that the



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             1      Board may actually ask something of you or of

             2      somebody else in the room, as just happened, to

             3      help fill out the question.  We actually have had

             4      the scribe arrange for a timer.  The timer will be

             5      a two-minute timer.  I don't know what special

             6      effects we have, but we plan to stick very closely

             7      to it.  Please, if your time runs out when you are

             8      in the middle of a brilliant thought, complete it

             9      within ten seconds and realize that if it is over

            10      that time, I may take some license to tell you

            11      that your time is, in fact, up.  It's not meant to

            12      tell you that you don't have a good idea.  It's

            13      meant to say that there are a lot of people in the

            14      room and we want to keep it moving.

            15                 In fairness, I think I'm going to ask

            16      our scribe, if it's at all possible -- am I

            17      running out of time?  Well, I guess I'm done.  I'm

            18      going to ask the scribe, if at all possible, to

            19      stop the clock while somebody else is talking.  So

            20      if you ask the Board a question and then they eat

            21      up your two minutes by giving you a non-responsive

            22      answer, that shouldn't happen.  So we'll have some

            23      opportunity for you to use up your two minutes

            24      actually as you're talking, and just -- the first



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             1      rule of privilege, I'm told by Charlie Nesson, is

             2      not to abuse it, and we're hoping that that

             3      collective spirit can come today and that truly

             4      the Board, which may not be subject to this sort

             5      of damocles, will also be brief, knowing that

             6      there are that many more comments out there of

             7      people who want to be heard.

             8                 MS. DYSON:  One other point.

             9                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Yes.

            10                 MS. DYSON:  The Board can actually ask

            11      questions of the speaker as well.

            12                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Yes, that's exactly

            13      right, which the speaker may or may not answer,

            14      but hopefully will in the spirit of today.  Also,

            15      if you can and if you so desire, please identify

            16      yourself before you speak so that the scribe can

            17      get the name down and so that you may be

            18      identified later if another point comes up that is

            19      apropos.  So that all being said, why don't we

            20      move right into this session.  And I saw we

            21      already have the list of names, starting with, I

            22      would imagine, the first name, Ronda.  Is Ronda

            23      Hauben here?  Ronda, you have your two minutes. 

            24      Welcome.



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             1                 MS. HAUBEN:  Is this the mic?  It sad

             2      to be here today.  Let me say by way of

             3      introduction, I have submitted a proposal that's

             4      on-line that, in fact, is what should be happening

             5      instead of this.  It's sad to be here today.  The

             6      concentration of power and wealth that is public

             7      in nature and that this private group is taking

             8      from the public is a very sad commentary on the

             9      current times.  The Internet has been created by a

            10      great deal of public contribution and tax money,

            11      and the public has a right to the fruits of their

            12      contribution.  Creating this private corporation,

            13      which is in violation of all the laws forbidding

            14      great concentration of economic power, is the

            15      opposite of safeguarding the public purpose of

            16      access to the Internet.

            17                 For many years, the statements have

            18      been made that there is no central points of

            19      control over the Internet.  That is known now to

            20      be false.  But for many years, the central points

            21      of the control were in public hands, with public

            22      interest surrounding their use.  This has now all

            23      changed with the creation of this private

            24      corporation to usurp these public assets.  This



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             1      corporation has been created by your secret

             2      process and the Board members chosen by a secret

             3      process involving corporate entities and

             4      government people serving these corporate

             5      entities.

             6                 This is contrary to the whole effort of

             7      people to build and develop the Internet, which has been

             8      successfully created to oppose the creation of

             9      power and to make it possible for the people to

            10      speak for themselves about their needs and their

            11      visions.  This private corporation has been

            12      created by the U.S. Government and

            13      Corporate Entities, who have ignored the vision

            14      that has built the Internet and that has made it

            15      the hope of people around the world for a better

            16      future.  The policy-making powers that have been

            17      given to this private corporation belong to

            18      governments and to cooperative public processes, not

            19      to any private entity.

            20                 Thus, this private entity is trying to

            21      usurp people's rights to maintain their

            22      sovereignty.  There is no membership

            23      organizational structure that can change this, as

            24      the power will still reside, and in who knows who



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             1      will control the Board.  This is a centralized

             2      structure that is fundamentally hostile to the

             3      nature of the Internet as a participatory structure.  If the U.S.

             4      government and any other government that has

             5      helped the U.S. government to create this private

             6      corporate entity really had any concern for the

             7      Internet and its users, they would have created an

             8      on-line forum that would work to solve any

             9      problems that exist in the participatory way that

            10      the Internet makes possible.  It is --

            11                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you, Ronda, thank

            12      you.  I believe everybody has a copy of that, and

            13      maybe I could just ask Esther or any of the Board

            14      members to respond.

            15                 MS. DYSON:  Actually, no.  At this

            16      point, we've listened, and I think we'll go on. 

            17      Thank you.

            18                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you.  Jay Fenello

            19      is next from Microdome.

            20                 MR. FENELLO:  Good morning, Jay

            21      Fenello, Microdome.  By this morning's show of

            22      hands, it's apparent that we want to support this

            23      Board.  It's also apparent that we do not trust

            24      this Board, nor this process.  We don't know where



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             1      you came from.  Apparently, in recent

             2      congressional testimony, Joe Sims said he didn't

             3      know who made the phone calls.  This Board has

             4      countered that claim.  In spite of this, we still

             5      want to trust this Board.

             6                 Recently, members of ORC and members of

             7      Boston (inaudible) have had a lengthy conversation

             8      with the members of this Board.  We've reported

             9      our concerns, and they were not adequately

            10      addressed.  Well, we asked the reasons why and we

            11      asked for Board minutes to be released before this

            12      meeting so we could understand the rationale for

            13      ignoring those suggestions.  Those were not

            14      forthcoming.  So we do want to support this Board. 

            15      However, you're not making it easy for us.

            16             In Esther's response to an article

            17      summarizing the ORC position, she said this would

            18      not be a dog-and-pony show.  Well, from this

            19      morning's meeting and format, I think it will be a

            20      dog-and-pony show, and I'm very concerned about

            21      that.  So I'd like this to go on the record.  And

            22      as I say, we want to support this Board, but the

            23      Board has to help us.  Thank you.

            24                 MS. DYSON:  Okay.  One comment in



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             1      response.  I think our transmittal letter was

             2      probably a better analysis of the recent sort of

             3      changes we made or did not make, and our minutes

             4      will be -- which one or two of the Board members

             5      are still not approved, so we couldn't post them

             6      yet.  The second is, I hope we will explain some

             7      of our reasoning to you today, and I hope we will

             8      also get a lot of remaining questions answered. 

             9      For example, we did agree to have a membership

            10      structure, and we'd like to know how to do that. 

            11      And that's one of the things we want to discuss

            12      with you.

            13                 MR. FENELLO:  I ask who are the Board

            14      members (inaudible) so far.

            15                 MS. DYSON:  George, and I know there --

            16      Mike Weinberg, who's missing.

            17                 AUDIENCE:  Geraldine.

            18                 MS. DYSON:  And Geraldine.  They've

            19      been encouraged to do this.  We hope to have it

            20      done (inaudible).  But honestly, the transmittal

            21      letter is more useful.

            22                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  I'd just like to say

            23      something to Jay's point from the point of view of

            24      the Berkman Center, at least from myself, and that



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             1      is, I hope the dogs and ponies won't be brought in

             2      at any point during the day.  It's true we have a

             3      lot of tech here and a lot of process, that kind

             4      of thing, but at least from our point of view, the

             5      reason is actually to get substantive ideas out,

             6      whatever they may be, and both in this session and

             7      in the specific sessions that are to follow.  We

             8      participate in the IFWP process in some fashion. 

             9      We've tried to put together consensus points

            10      there.  And we're right with you that -- and I'm

            11      convinced, at least personally, that Esther is

            12      behind the idea of actually having this be a real

            13      meeting, not just having it kind of be a pat on

            14      the back and that's it.

            15                 MR. FENELLO:  We are supportive of the

            16      process of defining the membership structure over

            17      the course of the year, but there are outstanding

            18      issues with the by-laws that need to be addressed

            19      before the U.S. government gives this Board

            20      approval to go forward.  That's the issue here.

            21                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Indeed.  Who's next?

            22                 SCRIBE:  Michael Sondow.

            23                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Michael Sondow?

            24                 MR. SONDOW:  Good morning.  I just --



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             1                 MS. DYSON:  It's not working.

             2                 MR. SONDOW:  This microphone's not

             3      working?  Good morning.  I would just like to ask

             4      the Board, with all due respect, I'm sure

             5      everybody on the Board is very competent, that

             6      this Board may, indeed, accomplish what it says

             7      that it has set out to accomplish, but I would

             8      just like to ask each and every one of you if it

             9      didn't -- if the question didn't cross your minds

            10      when you were contacted about this Board as to

            11      just who these people were who were calling you

            12      and asking you to sit on this Board, what the

            13      thought -- the question of authority is very

            14      complicated.  This Esther Dyson has said that yes,

            15      we can mess around and waste years discussing who

            16      has authority.  Well, we don't have years to mess

            17      around discussing it, but it is, nevertheless, an

            18      extremely important question.  Where does the

            19      authority spring for this organization?  Was John

            20      Costello designated as the person to choose the

            21      Board members of the International Central

            22      Internet Authority?

            23                 When Joe Sims called you, did you ask

            24      him, "Who are you?  Who do you represent?  What



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             1      paper has established your authority to designate

             2      me, a person who has admittedly" -- who admitted,

             3      most of you have, except perhaps Mike Robertson,

             4      not been involved in this process?  Why were you

             5      called?  Why were you chosen?  Why are you sitting

             6      here rather than other people who might be on this

             7      Board that many of us would rather see on this

             8      Board?

             9                 MS. DYSON:  I'll answer it.  Any other

            10      Board member who wants to take a crack at this

            11      can.  The ICANN, as constructed, in some sense,

            12      had no authority other than to be itself and to

            13      pick Board members it wanted.  Then it got

            14      indicated -- the government indicated that, "We

            15      think you are the people we might give authority

            16      to if we believe that you are appropriate,"

            17      including the Board members that --

            18                 MR. SONDOW:  I beg your pardon, but I

            19      don't believe the government -- the government

            20      didn't contact you, did they?

            21                 MS. DYSON:  No.  I mean, well, I --

            22                 MR. SONDOW:  Just -- let me just say I

            23      don't understand what you're saying.

            24                 MS. DYSON:  You mean should I



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             1      believe -- should I think that these guys are

             2      lying and that the U.S. government wasn't

             3      negotiating with them?  I mean --

             4                 MR. SONDOW:  I beg your pardon, but the

             5      U.S. government talked about a democratic

             6      processing consensus approach to forming this

             7      organization, not that one man, John Costello, his

             8      legal representatives chosen by him for his own

             9      reasons.  That was not the process that was

            10      defined by the U.S. government.

            11                 MS. DYSON:  What the U.S. government

            12      basically said was, we want to hand over this --

            13      call it authority, to a consensus of the Internet

            14      community.  And at first, I think they thought

            15      they could form it, and then they said, we want it

            16      to form itself, and if we are satisfied with the

            17      outcome, then we will hand over that authority. 

            18      And that, as I understand it, is the essence of

            19      what happened.  The government is trying to get

            20      you to create consensus that it can give that

            21      authority to.

            22                 MR. SONDOW:  Now, what was the

            23      process --

            24                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Michael, thank you. 



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             1      Your time's up.

             2                 MS. DYSON:  And the process continues. 

             3      The process changes.  The goal of consensus

             4      continues.

             5                 SCRIBE:  Harold Feld?

             6                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Harold Feld's next? 

             7      Yeah, go ahead.

             8                 MR. FENELLO:  Harold Feld, thanks to

             9      his translator.  As these comments have

            10      demonstrated, there is the question of the issue

            11      of access to information and how that builds

            12      trust.  I'd like to suggest a specific membership

            13      structure that could be adopted in a short term

            14      with the goal of disseminating information rather

            15      than directly electing Board members.  I would ask

            16      the Board to consider creating a general

            17      membership category which would be open to either

            18      individuals or corporations which would have

            19      certain rights of access to the books of account

            20      or to Board meetings on par with those of the

            21      shareholders to a private corporation.

            22                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Sounds like if you have

            23      an interim Board, an interim chair, an interim

            24      (inaudible), you could have an interim membership,



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             1      is the idea.  I don't know if you want to defer

             2      that to the time when we're talking about

             3      membership or respond to it now.  Is there a

             4      preference?

             5                 MS. DYSON:  If someone has a comment. 

             6      I think we will note it and return to it during

             7      the membership section.  Thank you.

             8                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Okay.  Who's up next,

             9      scribe?  Richard Snow.

            10                 MR. SNOW:  I come to this meeting as a

            11      user of the Internet.

            12                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Name?  Name?

            13                 MR. SNOW:  Richard Snow, sorry.  I'm

            14      coming to the meeting as a user of the Internet,

            15      someone who's spent a number of years lurking and

            16      participating in Usenet in a variety of different

            17      places, and while I realize that there is a very

            18      dramatic argument about the process, I think the

            19      thing that is very important to me is what Hans

            20      was saying earlier, that this needs to be an

            21      enabling process, that this is not a process by

            22      which some organization is taking ownership of the

            23      Internet, that what you all have to put in your

            24      hearts as you go forward is to create a space



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             1      where an open public forum can exist, multi-

             2      national, that's not U.S.-biased, that's not

             3      biased towards one particular religion or creed or

             4      one particular view of sexuality, one particular

             5      view of what is a definition of pornography, what

             6      is correct religiously.

             7                 It's very important that, as Esther was

             8      saying, there a transition to something that can

             9      release a butterfly, this organization, sometimes

            10      perhaps ugly, provides simply a cocoon which can

            11      then later grow and release something which is

            12      completely different, an organization that

            13      blossoms.  So with that, I am placing my faith in

            14      you.  And I'd like to say one thing in particular,

            15      that we look at this with the wise eyes of a

            16      grandparent, as someone older watching children at

            17      play.  Thank you.

            18                 MS. DYSON:  Thanks.

            19                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Who's up next?

            20                 MS. DYSON:  We really appreciate that

            21      sentiment, and we just want to make it work.  We

            22      want your support in making it work.

            23                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Richard Lindsey?

            24                 MR. LINDSEY:  I am Richard Lindsey.  I



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             1      represent a company (inaudible) Corporation in

             2      Japan.  The reason I say that is because I came a

             3      long way, which means that people around the world

             4      believe this is a very important process.  Other

             5      than some of the prior speakers, I have three main

             6      points.  The first is, this important to us.

             7                 The second is that, it was unique

             8      that -- Esther's comment about the former Soviet

             9      Union's attempts at privatization.  The problem

            10      with the former Soviet Union is, things didn't

            11      work then, whereas with the (inaudible) basically

            12      things worked.  They're going to go from one

            13      system that worked to another system that worked. 

            14      I think the big problem is the issue of time.  And

            15      there can be discussions forever regarding this

            16      issue.  There will not be a consensus.  I think

            17      that will be impossible.  The issue, though, I

            18      believe is to accept, well, is this the way we're

            19      going to do things, and then let's get down to

            20      business and see if it works or not.  If it

            21      doesn't work, then people should revolt and throw

            22      up their arms and say this is not the way it was

            23      supposed to work.

            24                 My final comment is that I think things



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             1      should be done in a unique manner.  We're not

             2      looking to build another committee or to set up

             3      another company, basically.  This is a new way of

             4      doing business.  And I think that at least as far

             5      as the rest of the world is concerned, we're

             6      saying, well, let's see what happens, we want to

             7      see something unique.  I think the comments have

             8      had (inaudible) an on-line page on the Web

             9      (inaudible).  If things don't work, we'll cancel

            10      them.  But overall, I feel that there is unique

            11      opportunity, and I'd encourage everyone to move

            12      quickly and get down to business.

            13                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you.

            14                 MS. DYSON:  Let me just say one thing

            15      about the Soviet Union and Russia, because I

            16      probably didn't make this clear.  What I learned

            17      from Russia was how not to do it.  And what I've

            18      learned, to some extent, with places like Poland

            19      is how well it worked.  You're absolutely right;

            20      in Russia, things didn't work before and they're

            21      not working afterwards.  And it's, on the one

            22      hand, a model of what secrecy and abuse of power

            23      can do, and on the other, the chaos you have now

            24      with no authority and no rule of law.  Whereas in



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             1      a place like Poland, you had some of the same

             2      tensions, and they created a process that was

             3      generally considered to be fair and to make that

             4      transition.  And now in Poland, nobody worries,

             5      frankly, about privatization morality.  Every

             6      Polish consumer wants a washing machine and a

             7      vacation in Greece, and most of them get it.  But

             8      the process of transition was very important to

             9      making that happen.

            10                 And so when Ronda talks about the

            11      users, you know, they are important here.  They

            12      may want nothing more than Internet access and a

            13      domain name that works.  But yes, there has to be,

            14      behind all that, a process that works and, if you

            15      like, the factories of the Internet along with all

            16      these other systems that work quietly.

            17                 MR. LINDSEY:  One point, that the

            18      Polish had a head start over the Soviet Union, and

            19      it did take about ten years before they started

            20      getting some success.

            21                 MS. DYSON:  Thanks for the

            22      encouragement.

            23                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  On to the next two

            24      minutes of the rest of this organization's life. 



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             1      Einar Stefferud?

             2                 MR. STEFFERUD:  First, you have my name

             3      misspelled.

             4                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  That's --

             5                 MR. STEFFERUD:  E-I-N-A-R --

             6                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  A-R, isn't it?  I was

             7      wondering.  I figured I'd trust the scribe.

             8                 MR. STEFFERUD:  I'd like to say that

             9      (inaudible) problems.  If you can't find the

            10      answer to the problem you're trying to solve, it's

            11      probably because the problem is a bigger problem

            12      and you are looking too many levels below where

            13      you should be.  The problem we have is a lack of

            14      trust.  Trust has to be earned.  Trust is not

            15      bought.  It has to be earned.  You guys have to

            16      earn it.  There's no other way to do this, and

            17      begging is not a good strategy.  We understand

            18      you're a whiz, but begging isn't going to get it. 

            19      Okay?  We really want this all to be organized

            20      around principals rather than around people.  The

            21      reason for that is fairly obvious and became so

            22      with passing of John.  If we were depending on him

            23      to save our butts, we aren't going to be able to

            24      use that now.  We need to do it on our own.



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             1                 The other point is that by doing that,

             2      by making the Board by-laws appropriate to be

             3      based on principals rather than people, then we

             4      don't care so much who it is that's sitting up

             5      there at the head table.  What we want is by-laws

             6      that protect us from you in a way that we can

             7      trust.  That's the beginning of the building of

             8      trust.  As long as your by-laws consistently are

             9      organized to make you unsuable and unaccountable

            10      and free from all of our pressures and all of our

            11      wishes, we will give you our trust.  The community

            12      will not trust that.  You simply need to find a

            13      way to give us trust by writing by-laws that we

            14      can breathe and feel and taste and trust instead

            15      of stories about how you got there and all of

            16      that.  We don't care who's on the Board; we will

            17      accept your Board; use our by-laws.  And that's

            18      our basic position.  It's all documented.

            19                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you.  You now have

            20      minus twenty-three seconds, so thank you.  Any

            21      response?

            22                 MS. DYSON:  Basically I hope we'll be

            23      answering a lot of those questions during the day,

            24      without begging.



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             1                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Is it really Dan Stein

             2      or is there two Dan Steinbergs?

             3                 SCRIBE:  Two people.  Dan Stein is

             4      the --

             5                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Two people.  Dan Stein

             6      first.

             7                 MS. DYSON:  No, that's --

             8                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Yes.  Did you stuff the

             9      ballot box, you put your name in twice, or . . .?

            10                 MR. STEINBERG:  Actually, you guys did. 

            11      So I figure you did --

            12                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  I must say, it looks

            13      like your handwriting on both, but let's not get

            14      into that.  Dan Stein's opportunity to speak is

            15      now waved, but I guess we're fortunate that they

            16      were drawn in succession.  Very close to each

            17      other in the box, I take it.  Anyway, go ahead.

            18                 MR. STEINBERG:  All right.  I'm

            19      actually not going to take all of four minutes.  I

            20      probably won't need two.  All right.  I just want

            21      to carry on with what Steff said.  What we're

            22      really talking about is what we feel is a need for

            23      accountability.  And by accountability, we mean it

            24      in a much larger sense than the ability to elect



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             1      members of the Board.  It means the ability to

             2      have some sort of member panel or ADR, a way to

             3      get to the Board to get quickly to simple

             4      problems, the ability to sue the Board if you

             5      don't get that (inaudible), the ability to have

             6      oversight other than, in this case, the attorney

             7      general of the State of California, ability to

             8      have fiscal accountability.  That's all we're

             9      talking about.  They're very, very simple changes

            10      we're asking for.  Doesn't have to be (inaudible)

            11      suggestion, as long as we get the same

            12      functionality.

            13                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Okay.  Certainly sounds

            14      like lots of those issues will be visited today,

            15      at least if you're here to help with it.  Any

            16      other comments?  Okay.  Dan Parisi is next, and

            17      then we have -- I feel like I'm on talk-back

            18      live -- we have an E-mail to read, too.  Go ahead,

            19      Dan.

            20                 MR. PARISI:  Hello, how are you doing? 

            21      Many people have been saying for years, that, you

            22      know, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts

            23      absolutely.  Just one thing so people know how

            24      much power you actually have in your Board, let's



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             1      get a little (inaudible) seen it happen to us in

             2      October, and what happened was, for two weeks in

             3      October, our site just wouldn't work.  And

             4      basically what happened was, my engineers from our

             5      site and the engineers (inaudible) were fighting

             6      each other.  My guys were blaming them and they

             7      were blaming us.  The bottom line was, something

             8      either through some kind of problem with the root

             9      servers or not, but whatever, it took two weeks to

            10      get resolved.  Okay?

            11                 Obviously I know (inaudible) that you

            12      guys will have a chokehold on the economy of the

            13      United States.  But I think people should be very

            14      careful in giving you absolute power.  And that's

            15      one of the things I'm here for, because I just

            16      don't think it's right, you know, that the

            17      American citizens or people throughout the world,

            18      who right now have the U.S. government protecting

            19      them, are going to have no protection.  And I know

            20      -- and I just also don't think that it's right

            21      that the U.S. government should be handing you,

            22      you know, all this power, which basically says to

            23      me that they're trying to privatize government

            24      actions.



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             1                 And it seems very analogous to what

             2      happened in the fifties when the states themselves

             3      tried to do the same thing, when they tried to get

             4      around the Constitution and get around the 14th

             5      amendment by trying to privatize the schools.  I

             6      think people should look very closely at you, and

             7      even though I think you all are very nice people,

             8      I just worry about the power situation.  And I

             9      just hope, you know, that everyone will have the

            10      power of free speech and so forth, because I don't

            11      want to have something happen that happened in

            12      Korea where people got jailed for saying something

            13      bad about the government.

            14                 And one of the first things that --

            15      letters I got when we first opened our site was

            16      from somebody in China in which (inaudible),

            17      because if he did it right now, he'd be going to

            18      jail.  I hope everybody makes sure they understand

            19      that.

            20                 MS. DYSON:  How did you get your

            21      problem resolved?

            22                 MR. PARISI:  We just -- it just went

            23      away.  It was very weird.  As I said, it was like

            24      they were blaming us, my engineers were blaming



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             1      them.  And for two weeks, we had maybe ten percent

             2      of our business.  Nothing -- it was ridiculous. 

             3      But it took almost two or three weeks.  We didn't

             4      even notice at the beginning, because our servers

             5      (inaudible) serves and it just -- we just noticed

             6      it, then it took two weeks.  So people should

             7      understand that could happen -- you know, if

             8      somebody has a chokehold, the same thing can

             9      happen.

            10                 MS. DYSON:  So did the U.S. government

            11      help to --

            12                 MR. PARISI:  No, it just -- the problem

            13      went away.  No one could figure out exactly why

            14      the problem happened.

            15                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  It's amazing, just

            16      waiting a while sometimes actually works to make

            17      the problem go away.

            18                 MS. DYSON:  Interesting question worth

            19      addressing.

            20                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Yeah.  Sounds very much

            21      more along the lines of Ronda's thesis, too. 

            22      Next, Carl Oppendahl coming from the Net.  I hope

            23      I didn't mispronounce the name too poorly.  He

            24      says (Reading):



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             1                               "The latest NSI contract

             2                               says by November 1, 1998,

             3                               NSI shall provide

             4                               functional and interface

             5                               specifications for the

             6                               shared registration system

             7                               and a milestone schedule

             8                               for its development and

             9                               implementation.  NSI says

            10                               it provided the spec, but

            11                               refuses to let the Internet

            12                               community see the spec. 

            13                               Will ICANN permit the

            14                               Internet community to see

            15                               the spec that NSI

            16                               provided?"

            17                 MR. ROBERTS:  The spec was provided to

            18      the Department of Commerce on schedule in

            19      accordance with the amendment to the agreement,

            20      and as such, it is the Department of Commerce's

            21      agency which takes the next steps.  My

            22      understanding is that this is not involving a

            23      secret, and in fact that the amendment to

            24      agreement with the government and NSI executed



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             1      provides that a panel of experts will be created

             2      within the next thirty or sixty days to go over

             3      that spec.  But that -- you know, the Department

             4      of Commerce is the present custodian of the spec,

             5      and they're working on how to get that into the

             6      hands of the right people.

             7                 MS. DYSON:  Will that be our

             8      responsibility once the transition is complete?

             9                 MR. ROBERTS:  My understanding is that

            10      the agreements that are contemplated between the

            11      government and ICANN and between ICANN and NSI

            12      will have that result.

            13                 MS. DYSON:  Okay.  Which means in the

            14      end, that will be something that we probably will

            15      have to get involved in and figure out what is

            16      proprietary and what is --

            17                 MR. ROBERTS:  I don't want to be opaque

            18      about this.  It's very obvious that one of the

            19      objectives of the whole white-paper process is to

            20      end up with a system that has competitive

            21      registration services.  The mechanics of that are

            22      not spelled out on the white paper, and

            23      consequently the community is going to have to

            24      work on that.  There are people in that business



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             1      now all over the world.  Obviously their success

             2      or lack of success and what documentation -- I

             3      mean record they are using and how they're doing

             4      they're business will have a big effect on how

             5      ICANN implements the commitment for those

             6      services.

             7                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Next up, Heather Boyles.

             8                 MS. BOYLES:  My name is Heather Boyles. 

             9      I'm here to make comments on behalf of the

            10      University Corporation for Advanced Internet

            11      Development.

            12                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  If you can speak up,

            13      too --

            14                 MS. BOYLES:  Sorry.

            15                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  -- just to make sure

            16      that . . .

            17                 MS. BOYLES:  I'm here on behalf of the

            18      University Corporation for Advanced Internet

            19      Development, U.K., which is a not-for-profit

            20      corporation that is primarily -- whose members are

            21      primarily research universities here in the U.S.

            22      along with our industrial and other not-for-profit

            23      partners.  All of the members are engaged in the

            24      Internet team project to develop next-generation



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             1      Internet technology and applications.  Our

             2      comments are in support of ICANN and the process

             3      by which the organization now exists.  We commend

             4      the efforts of the organization to continue -- in

             5      the past and to continue to consider public

             6      interest and comments.  We believe and our

             7      organization and our Board of Directors believes

             8      that an international not-for-profit corporation

             9      is the most appropriate vehicle to ensure the

            10      stability and robustness of the environment for

            11      this very crucial piece of the Internet

            12      infrastructure.

            13                 And we also support the notion that the

            14      by-laws have made the very best -- in the by-laws,

            15      the Board has made its very best effort to strike

            16      a balance between effective representation and the

            17      ability to move in a timely and decisive manner. 

            18      We understand that the membership issue is still

            19      under discussion, and to the extent that we can be

            20      helpful in providing advice on membership, we will

            21      do so in the process that's been established. 

            22      Thank you.

            23                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you.

            24                 MS. DYSON:  Thank you.  Just how to do



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             1      membership is under discussion.  Membership itself

             2      is not.

             3                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Who's up next, scribe? 

             4      Tom Barrett.

             5                 MR. BARRETT:  Hi.  I'm Tom Barrett from

             6      a company called Thompson & Thompson.  For those

             7      of you who don't know us, we are a trademark and

             8      copyright research firm, been around for seventy-

             9      five years, headquartered here in Quincy, Mass.,

            10      with major operating centers in Belgium, Tokyo,

            11      Japan and scattered around in other places.  The

            12      Internet is growing up, and obviously that's why

            13      all of you are here today.  And Web addresses are

            14      not just addresses, but increasingly on-line

            15      identities as well.  That's our interest.  We're

            16      not lawyers; we're technologists.  We don't focus

            17      on litigation or dispute resolution; we focus on

            18      dispute prevention.  And we think that not enough

            19      discussion has occurred around this area.

            20                 I'd like to offer some areas of

            21      substance, perhaps.  We haven't quite got into

            22      these areas yet.  (inaudible) nomenclature exists

            23      that allow identical names for different

            24      industries, such as Delta, McDonald's, etcetera. 



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             1      And we believe fundamentally that for any commerce

             2      to succeed globally, we need to solve the

             3      infrastructure of DNS to allow the structure to

             4      exist.

             5                 The Board (inaudible) has us here today

             6      is great.  We do believe you need some other

             7      perspectives.  For example, a company such as

             8      Thompson & Thompson has probably the largest

             9      collection of trademarks in the world, it's an

            10      asset that can be applied in solving some of the

            11      DNS problems on the Internet.

            12                 Let me offer three suggestions for

            13      discussion.  One is a recommendation on how to

            14      prevent trademark infringement such as a global

            15      directory so that an applicant can understand how

            16      you need a distinctive name and, in fact,

            17      understand that there's potential infringement

            18      litigation in store for them if they proceed with

            19      their name.

            20                 Secondly, perhaps a potential waiting

            21      period so we can publish a proposed address for

            22      comment.  Again, the objective of a waiting period

            23      is to protect an applicant from potential

            24      litigation later on.  No one wants to --



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             1                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  You might want to go to

             2      the third suggestion just to get it on the record.

             3                 MR. BARRETT:  The third suggestion is

             4      to ask for additional information at the time of

             5      application and understand what the intent of use

             6      is for the proposed address.

             7                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Great, thanks very much. 

             8      David Schutt?  Is David Schutt here?  Ahh, there

             9      you are.

            10                 MR. SCHUTT:  I'm going to yield my two

            11      minutes to Eric Weisberg, who is a better public

            12      speaker than I am.

            13                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  This puts us to the

            14      transferability question, which was not addressed

            15      by the moderator, who now addresses it.  Of

            16      course, we also have the exception, which was

            17      Harold Feld, who spoke and had Jay Fenello speak

            18      on his behalf, but saying only what he said.  I'm

            19      going to make an on-the-flight call.  We can't

            20      have line-holding by people, so Eric, please

            21      deposit your thing in the box.  It will be put in

            22      the mix immediately.  David, is there anything you

            23      want to say in the meantime?

            24                 MR. SCHUTT:  No, I'm going to pass.



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             1                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Okay.  On to Don Telage.

             2                 MR. TELAGE:  Thank you.  Don Telage

             3      from Network Solutions.  I'd like to make a couple

             4      of points I think that are important and try not

             5      to attack the Board.  I'll give them a break for

             6      two minutes.  I'd like to remind us all that the

             7      reason we're here is that the mechanism we've had

             8      to deal with policy decisions is no longer among

             9      us, and we need a better, more robust mechanism to

            10      deal with the complete re-commercialization of the

            11      Net, and that's what this is all about.  ICANN is

            12      to develop a mechanism we can all live with

            13      (inaudible) policy.  This is not a governance

            14      body, and I think it's very important that we stop

            15      using that term.  Okay?  This is a mechanism to

            16      (inaudible) policy.

            17                 I want to commend Esther for

            18      understanding that the legitimacy of this

            19      organization comes bottom-up, but I want to

            20      chastise her for not recognizing that its

            21      authority does not come from the U.S. government. 

            22      Okay?  Her authority and the authority of this

            23      organization will come when it recognizes that

            24      through contracts with the suppliers of services



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             1      that are now supplying services on the Net, okay,

             2      (inaudible) provide stability to the Internet. 

             3      And that's a very important consideration.  That

             4      was a model set by the U.S. government in trying

             5      to form a contract or a cooperative agreement with

             6      NSI.  And to that end, I recommend that the U.S.

             7      government/ICANN agreement and that the NSI/ICANN

             8      agreement both be put out for public comment

             9      before they're signed.

            10                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Who's up next?

            11                 MS. DYSON:  Dan Karenberg.

            12                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Dan Karenberg.

            13                 MR. KARENBERG:  Thank you.  I am Daniel

            14      Karenberg.  I am representing (inaudible)

            15      administration in Europe.  We have twelve hundred

            16      members from eighty-two countries.  We've been

            17      doing this since seven years and involving local

            18      processes.  We are fully supportive of the ICANN

            19      Board.  Following the untimely passing away of

            20      John Costello, we have a number of concerns.  One

            21      major concern is that there are, indeed, regional

            22      processes or policies, I think, in the address

            23      area, there's also processes in -- or policies in

            24      the protocol area.  And we're very much concerned



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             1      that these discussions will lead to supplanting

             2      those processes with a global process, which will

             3      disenfranchise the people in the existing

             4      processes and the people participating in them. 

             5      Our members are very concerned that they may be

             6      obliged to participate in a global process in

             7      addition to the regional ones.

             8                 We are also very concerned about the

             9      discussion and suggestions being made that the

            10      supporting organizations should not appoint

            11      members to the ICANN Board.  I think it's very

            12      important to understand that the legitimacy of

            13      ICANN is (inaudible), as a previous speaker has so

            14      eloquently said, and that the supporting

            15      organizations (inaudible) provide very much --

            16      will provide very much of that (inaudible) will be

            17      open to question.

            18                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you.

            19                 MS. DYSON:  Please make sure you don't

            20      leave after lunch.

            21                 MR. KARENBERG:  Obviously not.

            22                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Who do we have up next?

            23                 SCRIBE:  Nigel Roberts.

            24                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Nigel Roberts.



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             1                 MR. ROBERTS:  I'm going to proceed on

             2      the assumption that this process is all going to

             3      work.  I noted from the submission of the Boston

             4      (inaudible), which I'm not a member and I have no

             5      connection with, they propose that Board elections

             6      be held by an electoral system in which the result

             7      is proportional to and fully representative of the

             8      diversity of the electorate.  I have to declare an

             9      interest in this.  I'm a member of another non-

            10      profit organization, the Electoral Reform Society

            11      of Great Britain, which has many decades of

            12      researching and organizing elections on exactly

            13      this same system.  So it will come as no surprise

            14      that I am personally in support of this proposal. 

            15      I believe SGB also has a long and honorable

            16      tradition right here in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

            17                 Under such a system, minorities, even

            18      vocal minorities, can feel that they have

            19      influence in direct proportion to their support,

            20      or, indeed, the lack of it.  It's been very

            21      successful in elections in Northern Ireland.  And

            22      many people know the situation there has also been

            23      contentious, to say the least.

            24                 I'd like last of all to make a



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             1      statement that all elections to all ICANN bodies,

             2      not just the Board, will use a system, as

             3      proposed. of proportional representation.

             4                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you.  I don't

             5      know, again, if you want to wait until we get to

             6      the representation section which starts at eleven

             7      or speak to it now.

             8                 MS. DYSON:  Well, I just want to say

             9      one thing that is (inaudible) to them.  We will

            10      definitely be interested in hearing more about

            11      after eleven.  We, today, will not make any

            12      statements, because in order to do that, we need

            13      to have an open sort of -- we need to have a Board

            14      meeting that is publicly announced and pre-planned

            15      and so forth and so on.  So our goal today is to

            16      listen to questions, maybe voice our personal

            17      opinions, but we can't make any statements.

            18                 MR. ROBERTS:  Of course I accept that

            19      and consider the point being made as a strong one.

            20                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Jonathan Robertson?

            21                 MR. ROBERTSON:  Hi, my name is Jonathan

            22      Robertson.  I represent a private organization, a

            23      domain registry organization in my present

            24      capacity as chairman of (inaudible) Council of



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             1      Registrars.  I want to make a very small

             2      statement, essentially commenting that we've been

             3      through a long process whereby many of us feel

             4      that we could have got here a little faster and a

             5      little more efficiently.  I'm sure that -- I just

             6      feel that we haven't gone fast enough.  But the

             7      key point is that from this stage, we need to look

             8      at an efficient, forward movement and that the

             9      question of trust, I have confidence in the Board,

            10      will be built in time, and that as far as I

            11      believe, that the process -- and I believe I can

            12      speak reasonably on behalf of our organization --

            13      that in spite of all our reservations, the essence

            14      is that we must move forward.

            15                 And we'd like to express our support to

            16      the Board and their ability to -- or at least give

            17      them a chance to take the rest of the Board and

            18      make some decisions through which trust will be

            19      built.  Thank you.

            20                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you.  You'll see

            21      on the schedules that we're slated to end this

            22      session at 10:45, so we'll draw as many as we

            23      figure can fit until that time.  Realize also, I

            24      think we're going to have some form of additional



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             1      at-large consultation rather than just on the

             2      agenda items later in the day, and there's also,

             3      of course, the ability to put in comments in

             4      writing.  Anthony Van Covering?

             5                 MR. VAN COUVERING:  Van Couvering,

             6      Antony Van Couvering, here representing the IATLD,

             7      International Association of (inaudible) Local

             8      Domains, and (inaudible).  And I have a quick

             9      question, then I'd like to follow up.  Does the

            10      ICANN think that the relation between country code

            11      and domain at any time will be governed by a

            12      contract directly between the ICANN and the domain

            13      administrators?

            14                 MS. DYSON:  We don't know yet, and this

            15      is a -- what can I say?  This is a complicated

            16      issue that at least most of us don't quite

            17      understand.  We're eager to understand it better. 

            18      It's clear it's something that falls in our court

            19      somehow.  It's not on the agenda today, because

            20      it's not -- it's not even part of the by-laws or

            21      some of the structural issues, but it's an issue

            22      we need to deal with.  And we will welcome

            23      submissions, comments, information, arguments. 

            24      Clearly we're going to have to have some open



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             1      meetings on this topic specifically, but we just

             2      don't know yet.  Personally, I'm actually eager to

             3      tackle this, because I think it's a very

             4      interesting, important, complex -- and again,

             5      we're going to have to be perceived to be fair.

             6                 MR. VAN COUVERING:  I'd like to follow

             7      that up by just saying that in the past, obviously

             8      this has all been handled rather privately by John

             9      Costello and, indeed, he had trust in the matter,

            10      although I can't say not without flaws.  The way

            11      that domain administrators, most of them, anyway,

            12      have worked is by using RFC, which provides them

            13      some protections in the code and conduct.  And we

            14      would very much like to see that established in

            15      some specific way in the ICANN by-laws and in some

            16      written way so that these people can get on with

            17      their job and not feel threatened by instability

            18      and the introduction of new powers that they have

            19      not had to deal with in the past.

            20                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you.  Do we have a

            21      next?  Richard Foreman.

            22                 MR. FOREMAN:  Good morning.  My name is

            23      Richard Foreman.  I am president and CEO of

            24      Register.com.  First I want to say thank you to



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             1      the Board.  I think you're doing a great public

             2      service, and I don't envy you at all.  Part of

             3      ICANN's power and authority is deriving probably

             4      from the U.S. government, but also from

             5      (inaudible) Internet.

             6                 And since ICANN will be assuming the

             7      role of the -- assuming the power that the U.S.

             8      government had previously, I would like to give a

             9      recommendation that ICANN commit itself to the

            10      entire cooperative agreement, most specifically to

            11      the most recent one, which was amendment number 11

            12      to the cooperative agreement which someone had

            13      brought up before, Carl Oppendahl in an E-mail,

            14      that by November 1, the NSI will submit the specs,

            15      which they have done; but more importantly, that

            16      by March 31st, there will be five new registrars

            17      interfacing to the NSI shared registration system. 

            18      And ICANN, assuming the role of Newco, is going to

            19      be choosing those five new registrars.  And I just

            20      want to recommend strongly that ICANN commit

            21      itself to that time table.

            22                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Anybody?

            23                 MS. DYSON:  I believe it's a commitment

            24      that we will inherit, we can -- yeah, it's --



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             1      right now it's going to be part of our negotiation

             2      with the government.

             3                 MR. VAN COUVERING:  But according to

             4      amendment number eleven, I believe that it does

             5      specifically say that Newco will assume the rights

             6      and the responsibilities that were previously or

             7      currently are handled by the Department of

             8      Commerce.

             9                 MS. DYSON:  Right.

            10                 MR. VAN COUVERING:  Thank you.

            11                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  We have time for one

            12      more name, and then we're going to move on.  Tony

            13      Rutkowski.

            14                 MR. RUTKOWSKI:  Tony Rutkowski. 

            15      Pleased to be here.  I'm interested in

            16      particularly following up on a couple of points. 

            17      One is that the Internet is a private shared user

            18      network legally, and this (inaudible) very

            19      significantly to the question of the authority. 

            20      The authority does not come from the United States

            21      government or ICANN.  I believe the government

            22      representative made that fairly clear yesterday

            23      and that shouldn't be complicated.

            24                 It shouldn't be complicated for yet



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             1      another reason, which is, the United States do not

             2      have the authority over the Internet (inaudible),

             3      these are not sovereign domains and that legally,

             4      there really is a separate route over which

             5      (inaudible) specifications.  And in that domain

             6      name system which exists in a parallel universe

             7      and for which there are gateways (inaudible).  I

             8      think this is an extraordinarily important

             9      question for the future.  Thank you.

            10                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Any comments?

            11                 AUDIENCE:  Point or order.  Ten minutes

            12      was taken with the logistics for the Board, I

            13      think.  Can we have five more speakers?

            14                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Which is to say I

            15      blabbed too long.  It's amazing that we're

            16      actually on schedule, and with the indulgence of

            17      the Board, I'm happy to have two more names drawn

            18      to take up the time I spent just talking about

            19      logistics.  Wow, we get to take a vote.  All

            20      right, the way to do this, all those in favor of

            21      taking another few minutes say aye.

            22                 (Responses)

            23                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  All those who want to

            24      break right now say nay.



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             1                 (Responses)

             2                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  The ayes have it, in the

             3      opinion of the chair.  We have several more

             4      speakers.  Which is to say the interim moderator,

             5      not the chair.  Mark Luker and Jay Hauben.

             6                 MR. LUKER:  Good morning.  I'm Mark

             7      Luker.  I speak for Educause (phonetic).  We're a

             8      non-profit association of sixteen hundred colleges

             9      and universities.  We focus on how information and

            10      technology can be used to transform higher

            11      education, teaching, learning, research,

            12      operations.  Today this focus is on the Internet. 

            13      We've also been central figures in the development

            14      of the campus networks and our regional networks.

            15                 Our members believe that the present

            16      Board, the interim Board and the by-laws are an

            17      excellent start.  We would urge that we get on

            18      with this business.

            19                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you.  Okay,

            20      Hauben.  Ahh, perfect.

            21                 MR. HAUBEN:  I believe the draw was

            22      fixed and that the names were not what were on the

            23      paper, but I'll speak in any case.  The --

            24                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Are you saying you don't



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             1      want your time?

             2                 MR. HAUBEN:  I'll take my time.  The

             3      big problem we face is that there's no one

             4      representing the public essence of the Internet

             5      and the public.  And by the public, I mean the

             6      students, the senior citizens, E-mail users, the

             7      medical students, the library patrons and all the

             8      people who look to the Internet as a

             9      communications medium.  It's not IT, it's CT,

            10      communications technology.  That's what people

            11      need, that's what people want and that's what's

            12      left out of this.

            13                 I think that the problem is, it's a

            14      Constitutional crisis in the United States,

            15      because the executive branch is willing to,

            16      without legal authority and without Constitutional

            17      authority, suggest this process, encouraging --

            18      (inaudible) purpose to this Board, with the result

            19      that we're facing congressional branch

            20      (inaudible).  And I think that Newco is not

            21      (inaudible), it hasn't been given that right, it

            22      won't be given that right if Congress finds that

            23      the process has been inappropriate or if the point

            24      is made that there is no authority, which there is



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             1      none.  And I'd like anybody on the Board to state

             2      what Constitutional legal authority there is for

             3      the government to do what it's doing.

             4                 But what I'd like to do is ask the

             5      Board to respect the U.S. Constitution and to

             6      respect the people of the world and to do what the

             7      Supreme Court did when the government was doing

             8      unconstitutional things, it asked it to step down. 

             9      So I would ask the Board to consider stepping

            10      down, because that will give encouragement and

            11      strength to those who want to see something

            12      better.  We want to see the international and the

            13      public Internet grow and spread.  The world

            14      network that doesn't have classes on it is what

            15      serves people, and that's what's at stake.

            16                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  Thank you.  Any

            17      response?

            18                 MS. DYSON:  Well, I've certainly

            19      considered stepping down, because I'd like to -- I

            20      like to keep an open mind.  But as someone

            21      watching this process first from outside and now

            22      from inside, as someone who wrote a book targeted

            23      at those same consumers, workers, teachers --

            24                 MR. HAUBEN:  Those are not consumers. 



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             1      They're not consuming when --

             2                 MS. DYSON:  Excuse me, please read my

             3      book.

             4                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  He has fifteen seconds. 

             5      I mean, come on.

             6                 MR. HAUBEN:  Don't turn this into a

             7      business.  We're not doing business, we're

             8      communicating.  When we communicate, we don't have

             9      a product, we're not buying and selling something. 

            10      You can't bring this to people that have no money

            11      to buy it.  They can't be consumers.  You're

            12      looking at school kids who can't be consumers. 

            13      You're looking at a world of people who are using

            14      this for communication.  So (inaudible) consumer

            15      leads us to a buying/selling network.  We want a

            16      communications network.

            17                 MS. DYSON:  Excuse me, I didn't finish

            18      my list, which included citizens, people in

            19      eastern Europe who have no money, people who are

            20      more interested in a water supply than in a Net

            21      supply.  Anyway, yes, I considered stepping down,

            22      but I thought better of it, because --

            23                 MR. HAUBEN:  Can you show me where in

            24      the Constitution there's the authority for the



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             1      government to do what it's doing?

             2                 MS. DYSON:  It's -- it's --

             3                 MR. ZITTRAIN:  At this moment, we

             4      appear to have adjourned ourselves into group

             5      discussion.  I now ratify that decision by saying

             6      that this part of the meeting is in recess.  We'll

             7      reconvene at 11:05 here to start the structured

             8      agenda points.  Thank you.

             9                               (Whereupon a recess was

            10                               held.  Meeting resumed at

            11                               11:13 a.m.)



CONTACT INFORMATION  

For additional information, please contact:  

Wendy Seltzer, Ben Edelman, Alexander Macgillivray, and Antoun Nabhan. 
Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard Law School