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Prior to 2008-05-15
2008-05-13 14:40:41 * Now talking on #berkman
2008-05-13 14:40:41 * Topic for #berkman is: Berkman Chat
2008-05-13 14:40:41 * Topic for #berkman set by davidjoho at Tue May 6 09:52:17 2008
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2008-05-14 09:39:11 <goodell> Hm, is @BerkmanCenter not following me?
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2008-05-14 09:43:00 <wseltzer> I think I'm sitting next to @BerkmanCenter, so we can fix that
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2008-05-15
2008-05-15 00:44:59 * sama (n=sama@88.147.37.67) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 04:46:51 <wseltzer> goodell: the rss bot seems to have been kicked out of the twitter channel
2008-05-15 04:49:44 <goodell> wseltzer: It does. Not sure why, I will put it back.
2008-05-15 04:50:58 <goodell> It is back now.
2008-05-15 04:55:16 <wseltzer> excellent. just tracking down a new YouTube "authorized link" feature before heading Berkmanward
2008-05-15 04:57:28 <goodell> wseltzer: this? http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/14/2125229
2008-05-15 05:00:31 <wseltzer> goodell: yes, though I hadn't yet seen the slashdot article, thanks
2008-05-15 05:06:45 <goodell> Interesting.
2008-05-15 05:07:08 <wseltzer> seems like a better alternative to takedown
2008-05-15 05:07:38 <goodell> http://valleywag.com/390528/how-youtubes-sucking-up-to-modest-mouse-and-other-giants-of-media
2008-05-15 05:08:30 <wseltzer> that wasn't quite the headline I was planning to use :)
2008-05-15 05:09:31 <wseltzer> http://wendy.seltzer.org/blog/archives/2008/05/15/sony-bmg-sends-youtube-ads-instead-of-takedown.html
2008-05-15 05:10:06 <goodell> That article argues that, unlike takedown, this practice could be less obvious and still effective in granting IP owners a means of tracking views on unofficial versions. (Is that the primary issue here? The link that allows posting the video on third-party sites seems secondary...)
2008-05-15 05:12:43 <wseltzer> Given that copyright holders have the right to take down, I think tracking is less intrusive -- if done transparently
2008-05-15 05:13:47 <wseltzer> they're trying to get back some of what they'd have by serving it all from their own site
2008-05-15 05:13:54 <goodell> Are there instances in which videos are tagged this way but the copyright owner does not authorize the use of the content on the site?
2008-05-15 05:14:17 <goodell> Right -- seems that here they are upset that they have lost the tracking ability to the four winds.
2008-05-15 05:17:41 <wseltzer> Unfortunately, I don't see anything in the API representation of the video. I'll have to ask the YouTomb whether they've seen this
2008-05-15 05:21:13 <wseltzer> Heading to Ames now. See you there.
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2008-05-15 05:24:07 <maryhodder> hello? is the webcast going yet? are you guys starting?
2008-05-15 05:28:23 <goodell> Heading to Ames now.
2008-05-15 05:29:21 * goodell has changed the topic to: Berkman Chat | @BerkmanCenter twitter feed -> #berkman-t
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2008-05-15 06:17:22 <wseltzer> Morning Berkmanfolk and friends!
2008-05-15 06:17:57 <jessamyn> hi there.
2008-05-15 06:19:39 * docsearls (n=docsearl@140.247.240.170) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 06:21:00 <davidjoho> yikes! We need to announce this backchannel!
2008-05-15 06:21:51 * davidjoho has changed the topic to: Berkman@10 - the Backchannel
2008-05-15 06:22:11 <davidjoho> what's the tag for this event?
2008-05-15 06:22:26 * chrisc_ (n=chatzill@140.247.249.118) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:22:33 <jessamyn> berkmanat10
2008-05-15 06:22:47 <jessamyn> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/berkmanat10/Social_Tools
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2008-05-15 06:26:48 * EricaG_away is now known as EricaG
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2008-05-15 06:27:53 <EricaG> Hi everyone! If you're remote, tune in to the webcast - Dean Kagan is opening the conference now.
2008-05-15 06:28:00 <wseltzer> Berkman Center becoming a University-wide center
2008-05-15 06:29:14 * millet (n=chatzill@dhcp-0013973058-8b-29.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:30:03 <EricaG> What's Charlie got on his shirt? A deviation from the trademark turtleneck?
2008-05-15 06:30:56 * millet is now known as chrismillet
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2008-05-15 06:31:11 <dsilverman> space: the final frontier
2008-05-15 06:32:43 <jessamyn> spinoffs: the expanding frontier
2008-05-15 06:35:28 * Sam1vp (n=Sam@128.103.182.167) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:35:29 <davidjoho> if you believe in JZ, clap your hands
2008-05-15 06:35:46 <davidjoho> JZ! JZ! JZ! JZ!
2008-05-15 06:36:14 * cori[s] (n=cori@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:37:32 * dsilverman claps, belatedly
2008-05-15 06:38:01 <jessamyn> I just hear "JayZ" and am quite amused.
2008-05-15 06:40:39 * msifry (n=msifry@dhcp-0013978859-39-0a.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:40:48 <msifry> hello and good morning!
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2008-05-15 06:41:17 * dslater (n=dslater@dhcp-0013978809-23-a4.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:41:33 <davidjoho> howdy, msifry!
2008-05-15 06:41:38 <Sam1vp> morning everyone!
2008-05-15 06:41:40 <wseltzer> welcome msifry, dslater, jessamyn
2008-05-15 06:41:55 <jordan___> hi joho and others
2008-05-15 06:41:58 <davidjoho> msifry, are you here (the way dslater and jessamyn are)?
2008-05-15 06:42:02 <msifry> i'm so glad to be here at the Barkmen Center's anniversary! Woof!
2008-05-15 06:42:05 <docsearls> Charlie: our Yoda.
2008-05-15 06:42:06 <msifry> in the flesh
2008-05-15 06:42:14 <wseltzer> Charlie Nesson: "Founder and guru"
2008-05-15 06:42:25 <wseltzer> complete with lightsaber noises!
2008-05-15 06:42:33 <docsearls> are we having our brains erased?
2008-05-15 06:42:55 <jessamyn> did he just say Fred Friendly? that's great!
2008-05-15 06:42:56 <davidjoho> ladies and gentlemen, the fuck barrier was broken at 9:40am
2008-05-15 06:42:56 <Sam1vp> sadly, I can only attend today via webcast--if anything happens off in the wings, please report!
2008-05-15 06:43:00 <dsilverman> oh geez
2008-05-15 06:43:12 <docsearls> Charlie: My mentor is Fred Friendly. His dictum was, "Technology is out to fuck you."
2008-05-15 06:43:34 <davidjoho> JZ: The most overqualified AV Squad member in history.
2008-05-15 06:43:37 * ahoward_ (n=chatzill@140.247.241.76) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:43:41 <dsilverman> JZ! JZ!
2008-05-15 06:43:55 <jessamyn> that's the thing on his sweatshirt, question answered
2008-05-15 06:44:25 <dsilverman> who is the narrator?
2008-05-15 06:44:49 <davidjoho> Eon.
2008-05-15 06:44:53 <wseltzer> he claimed he needed no introduction!
2008-05-15 06:45:22 <EricaG> I still want to know what's on Charlie's shirt.
2008-05-15 06:45:37 <docsearls> I remember JZ first as the guy who ran the Sysops Forum on Compuserve. didn't put 2 and 2 (or SF and Z) together until reminded a few weeks ago.
2008-05-15 06:45:37 <alexleavitt> Dragon of the Internet.
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2008-05-15 06:46:36 * roostah is now known as joshmahoney
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2008-05-15 06:47:30 <msifry> i feel like i'm at a wedding, where they forgot to do the rehearsal dinner
2008-05-15 06:48:20 <Chilmark> a little disconcerting that a grp talking about the Internet has trouble launching an app
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2008-05-15 06:48:45 <wseltzer> Terry: "I was suspicious of this fad"
2008-05-15 06:48:48 * samgilb (n=Sam@128.103.182.167) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:48:50 <sc1olist> We mustn't forget this is academia...
2008-05-15 06:49:07 <sc1olist> Rule #2: The A/V will never work...
2008-05-15 06:49:24 <Chilmark> good rules
2008-05-15 06:49:30 * fonchik (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000117886-f7-0a.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 06:51:31 <dsilverman> cogitate: to think hard; ponder; meditate: to cogitate about a problem.
2008-05-15 06:51:52 * joshuakauffman (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000099983-c4-9b.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:52:52 * ilteris_ (n=ilteris@216.223.194.250) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:53:11 <ahoward_> It's oddly comforting and reaffirming that AV issues persist into the present...the irony of it being here/now is inescapable but amusing
2008-05-15 06:53:25 * davewiner (n=davewine@dhcp-0013973115-ac-a2.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 06:53:34 <davewiner> hello everybody
2008-05-15 06:53:47 <ThomasKriese> not much live tweeting (yet) over at http://twemes.com/berkman
2008-05-15 06:53:53 <davidjoho> what did lessig refer to it as? I heard "zebra," which I'm pretty sure is not what Terry said.
2008-05-15 06:54:19 <joshmahoney> hi dave
2008-05-15 06:54:28 <jessamyn> the dragon shirt is SL/RL http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/cyberone/2006/10/29/the-end-of-a-long-hiatus/ fwiw
2008-05-15 06:54:33 <EricaG> JZ: An avatar of Berkman
2008-05-15 06:54:34 <msifry> it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks, here at Barkmen
2008-05-15 06:54:35 <sc1olist> I think Kagan is under the impression she owns JZ...literally.
2008-05-15 06:54:47 <KevinMarks> stream running at 70% packet loss, no audio
2008-05-15 06:55:05 <dsilverman> eon, thank you
2008-05-15 06:55:15 <KevinMarks> whover set it up, twaek down the video bitrate setting
2008-05-15 06:56:18 <davewiner> Some. Professors. Speak. Slowly. And. Deliberately.
2008-05-15 06:57:09 <KevinMarks> I'm seeing 700 kbit/sec with 50% packet loss - sending out a 1.5mbit/sec stream is sadly assuming a bit too much about net capacity
2008-05-15 06:58:01 <wseltzer> davidjoho: "Z theory," I think
2008-05-15 06:58:04 <ahoward_> KevinMarks, Steve Garfield is streaming on Qik live from his N95 too: http://qik.com/video/78641
2008-05-15 06:58:29 <wseltzer> courgettes!
2008-05-15 06:58:56 <jessamyn> "let's build a global network" club
2008-05-15 06:59:07 * jordan___ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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2008-05-15 07:00:19 <jordan____> are those pickles?
2008-05-15 07:00:34 <sc1olist> Look like Zucchinis -- unpickled
2008-05-15 07:00:48 <TimHwang_> squash maybe?
2008-05-15 07:00:49 <dsilverman> perhaps when this session ends the webcast producer can setup a second, lower-bandwidth stream
2008-05-15 07:00:50 <wseltzer> and yellow squash
2008-05-15 07:00:51 <Chilmark> Zukes and summer squash
2008-05-15 07:00:55 * jwales (n=jwales@wikipedia/Jimbo-Wales) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:00:55 <KevinMarks> I don't want qik, I like Qt H264 (I wrote that broadcaster code)
2008-05-15 07:00:58 <dsilverman> or audio-only
2008-05-15 07:01:19 <KevinMarks> just go down to around 400 kbit/sec, and 320x240 video
2008-05-15 07:01:24 <dsilverman> @KevinMarks then you know you can't lower bandwidth in QT Broadcaster without restarting the broadcast
2008-05-15 07:01:26 <sc1olist> Dude, KUH-TAR.
2008-05-15 07:01:27 <sc1olist> Oops
2008-05-15 07:01:29 <KevinMarks> yep
2008-05-15 07:01:32 <dsilverman> which would cut it off for 40 people in the overflow room
2008-05-15 07:01:33 <jessamyn> ku'tr
2008-05-15 07:01:38 <ilteris_> can someone hook me up with the streaming url please?
2008-05-15 07:01:45 <KevinMarks> but as it has 70% packet loss I can't see it now anyway
2008-05-15 07:01:54 <KevinMarks> http://harmony.law.harvard.edu/webcast.sdp
2008-05-15 07:02:09 <dsilverman> yeah, that's unfortunate, hopefuly can be remedied for next session. perhaps watch the qik for the time being?
2008-05-15 07:02:13 <ilteris_> oh wow stevegarfield qik streaming is pretty nice
2008-05-15 07:02:47 <wseltzer> JZ: the freedom of not needing to have a business plan
2008-05-15 07:05:33 <davewiner> Video: Jon Zittrrain explains the Internet. http://www.flickr.com/photos/scriptingnews/2494926130/
2008-05-15 07:06:01 <dsilverman> look at some of the "power" wireless technologies
2008-05-15 07:06:08 <dsilverman> they trample all available 802.11 channels
2008-05-15 07:06:13 <dsilverman> for better throughput for one person
2008-05-15 07:06:25 <dsilverman> or "turbo"
2008-05-15 07:08:40 <davewiner> the charter of the ietf is bs
2008-05-15 07:08:48 <davewiner> there are definitely insiders and outsiders
2008-05-15 07:09:10 <jordan____> his stories of near anarchy of the origins seems a little beyond truthiness
2008-05-15 07:09:43 <davewiner> why don't the academics ever burst myths
2008-05-15 07:09:58 <jordan____> smal groups took over and won by faster implementation and politics, i recall
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2008-05-15 07:10:20 <EricaG> Dave, isn't that the core problem with any consensus-based community? Unless it's very committed to self-reflection, there's the "tyrrany of structurelessness" < / social systems geek mode >
2008-05-15 07:10:22 <davewiner> and they reinvent the wheel whenever they feel like it, even when rough consensus already exists
2008-05-15 07:10:41 <davewiner> ericag, no they only respect technologists not users.
2008-05-15 07:11:06 <davewiner> if the users have already settled on something it's not uncommon for them to start over from scratch and completely ignore the consensus that already exists
2008-05-15 07:11:24 <davewiner> which has caused them to be routed around
2008-05-15 07:11:33 <davewiner> they may have been relevant once a long time ago
2008-05-15 07:11:39 <davewiner> but not so much anymore
2008-05-15 07:11:51 <davewiner> if you really want to get something done, go ahead and do it, don't wait for the ietf
2008-05-15 07:12:04 <fonchik> why is the video so dark? Steve Garfield's is much prettier
2008-05-15 07:12:19 <davewiner> fonchik cause steve garfield knows what he's doing :-)
2008-05-15 07:12:49 * wendy (n=chatzill@66-207-222-14.beanfield.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:12:51 <davewiner> kazaa == hug amount of spyware
2008-05-15 07:13:03 <davidjoho> steve garfield is the official onsite documentarian of the conference, btw.
2008-05-15 07:13:26 * wendy is now known as redheadatwork
2008-05-15 07:13:34 <TimHwang_> if i remember, JZ'll actually talk about that later. the tainting of kazaa actually ends up fitting into his thesis
2008-05-15 07:14:19 <jessamyn> "other things" = porn, right?
2008-05-15 07:14:25 <jessamyn> re: wikipedia
2008-05-15 07:14:31 <jordan____> ha!
2008-05-15 07:14:55 <devoncopley> i've been to that restaurant!
2008-05-15 07:15:03 <devoncopley> it's mushrooms
2008-05-15 07:15:16 <TimHwang_> i actually prefer the schezwan wikipedia
2008-05-15 07:15:20 <devoncopley> South Silk Road, in the Houhai district of Beijing
2008-05-15 07:15:37 <wseltzer> everyone: don't twitter that!
2008-05-15 07:15:47 <jessamyn> ARRESTED - I wish there were more good twitter stories.
2008-05-15 07:16:25 <msifry> he's right that microblogging seems to be displacing attention from blogging
2008-05-15 07:16:45 <msifry> but in the world i inhabit, soundblasts are now competing with soundbites
2008-05-15 07:16:48 * joshmahoney (n=roostah@dhcp-0013978776-e4-be.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:16:49 <jessamyn> protip: first, have a giant/powerful network
2008-05-15 07:16:51 * luisv (n=louie@dyn-160-39-43-175.dyn.columbia.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:17:08 * luisv waves hello at everyone, wishes he could be there
2008-05-15 07:17:12 <msifry> for ex, the average length of Obama's top ten viewed videos on YouTube is 13+ minutes
2008-05-15 07:17:28 <EricaG> I used Twitter as a doorbell a couple weeks ago - had lost my friend's # and her doorbell was broken. I DM'ed her
2008-05-15 07:17:42 <redheadatwork> I got my job via Twitter.
2008-05-15 07:18:09 * docsearls has quit ()
2008-05-15 07:18:10 <sc1olist> redhead: how?
2008-05-15 07:18:30 <redheadatwork> My now-boss tweeted that he was overwhelmed; I didn't have a job. I offered, he accepted.
2008-05-15 07:18:34 <goodell> I think that I have an idea why the rssbot was killed for Excess Flood earlier. :)
2008-05-15 07:18:36 <jordan____> rh@w: what kind of job (my daughter is looking)
2008-05-15 07:18:58 * dwitzel (i=user@dhcp-0013978928-4e-2a.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 07:19:16 <wseltzer> too many tweets and grunts?
2008-05-15 07:19:20 <redheadatwork> I do events and such for a public policy consultant.
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2008-05-15 07:20:59 <alexleavitt> peek-a-boo is apparently the program that told zittrain what programs he was running, aka. the screenshot
2008-05-15 07:21:43 <samgilb> did anybody catch the source for "1/4 billion computers awaiting instructions"?
2008-05-15 07:21:48 <joshuakauffman> cerf
2008-05-15 07:22:00 <samgilb> thx
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2008-05-15 07:22:11 <sc1olist> Man where can I get that Add DDOS util? That'd be useful. Ha.
2008-05-15 07:22:28 <jessamyn> this is one of my favorite internet bedtime stories - how pakistan killed youtube.
2008-05-15 07:22:58 <sc1olist> "Send it and pray". Is that Zittrain's line, or is that a common phrase?
2008-05-15 07:23:05 <davidjoho> dave clark
2008-05-15 07:23:11 <ahoward_> JessaMyn -- I like how the bedtime story ends: YouTube grows back. Many-headed hydra.
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2008-05-15 07:23:29 <alexleavitt> cats flushing toilets. JZ win.
2008-05-15 07:23:38 <fonchik> Berkman's next publication: Internet Bedtime Stories
2008-05-15 07:23:52 <jessamyn> lizard tail youtube
2008-05-15 07:24:34 <fonchik> redhead: I got my job via SMS
2008-05-15 07:24:42 <redheadatwork> fonchik: sweet
2008-05-15 07:25:49 <jessamyn> let's see if every speaker says "salience" I think we're 3 for 3 now.
2008-05-15 07:25:52 <docsearls> From Richard Sambrook of the BBC:
2008-05-15 07:25:54 <docsearls> sambrook Icon_red_lock @berkmancenter tell JZ to check the reporting of China and Burma on twitter
2008-05-15 07:26:48 <fonchik> What technology are we using to pass messages to speakers live? 85point type on a laptop screen in the front row?
2008-05-15 07:27:27 <wseltzer> fonchick: question tool!
2008-05-15 07:27:35 <sc1olist> I'd use the Live ? Tool: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/Berkmanat10
2008-05-15 07:28:11 <TimHwang_> samgilb: you can grab it from his book http://futureoftheinternet.org/download, chap 3
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2008-05-15 07:29:14 <devoncopley> tragedy of the commons
2008-05-15 07:29:14 <davewiner> geez does he really believe no one is in charge of wikipedia?
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2008-05-15 07:29:47 <goodell> cf. #wikipedia
2008-05-15 07:29:50 <sc1olist> No he doesn't, but he's simplifying for the purpose of explaining philosophy.
2008-05-15 07:30:11 <davewiner> i think there are people who believe it
2008-05-15 07:30:13 <davewiner> i've met them
2008-05-15 07:30:24 <davewiner> the internet is magic
2008-05-15 07:30:24 <goodell> It is important to note that Wikipedia does not quite achieve all of its goals, among them allowing anonymous contributions.
2008-05-15 07:30:41 <davewiner> human beings don't act human on the internet
2008-05-15 07:30:56 <davewiner> or there are "saint zones" where everyone is a saint
2008-05-15 07:31:00 <davidjoho> wikipedia would fit in the lower right: bottom-up hierarchy. And maybe it's trending up the chart.
2008-05-15 07:31:01 <goodell> For example, Wikipedia has blocked Tor nodes from committing changes, implicitly relying upon ISPs to enforce Wikipedia standards for reasonable behavior.
2008-05-15 07:31:19 <davidjoho> Dave, I take him as saying the opposite. "It works until it doesn't."
2008-05-15 07:31:43 <sc1olist> @david I think that's it.
2008-05-15 07:33:06 <davewiner> @davidjoho, you know we disagree on wkipedia
2008-05-15 07:33:14 * EricaG has changed the topic to: Berkman@10 - the Backchannel | Other Social Tools @ http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/berkmanat10/Social_Tools
2008-05-15 07:33:21 <davewiner> jz is very realistic about some things
2008-05-15 07:33:23 <davewiner> but for some reason
2008-05-15 07:33:35 <davewiner> doesn't want to say that the problems he's noticed apply to wikipedia
2008-05-15 07:33:44 <davewiner> why is that?
2008-05-15 07:33:59 <davidjoho> yes, dave, although maybe less (or perhaps more) than we think we do.
2008-05-15 07:34:15 <davewiner> ?
2008-05-15 07:34:49 <davidjoho> i'm not the total wikipedia utopian that i sometimes sound like.
2008-05-15 07:34:50 <davewiner> someone ought to do a realistic study of how wikipedia actually works
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2008-05-15 07:35:08 <davewiner> not the myth but the actual life of a wikipedia page
2008-05-15 07:35:22 <davewiner> and do a jz or joho style talk about it
2008-05-15 07:35:33 <davewiner> or a docsearls or larrylessig style talk
2008-05-15 07:35:36 <davidjoho> it would depend a lot on the page
2008-05-15 07:35:40 <davewiner> right
2008-05-15 07:35:46 <davewiner> you'd have to pick an "interesting" page
2008-05-15 07:35:52 <davewiner> some pages are very very good
2008-05-15 07:36:15 <davidjoho> one could pick some truly hair-raising examples, which is something you and i agree about.
2008-05-15 07:36:19 <davewiner> like I just looked up the page for bloggercon and while I don't think they got it totally accurate it is literate and undestandably mistaken where it is mistaken
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2008-05-15 07:36:49 <davidjoho> an article on the lives of wikipedia pages could be _very_ interesting
2008-05-15 07:36:52 <davewiner> david, it's not just examples, it's whole areas of human knowledge that are getting fucked by wikipedia
2008-05-15 07:37:03 <davewiner> not something to be trifiled with, imho
2008-05-15 07:37:25 <fonchik> Davewiner: defined "fucked" in this context
2008-05-15 07:37:53 <davewiner> you can't define things on IRC
2008-05-15 07:37:55 <davewiner> too informal
2008-05-15 07:38:01 <davewiner> too low bandwidth
2008-05-15 07:38:02 <davewiner> sorry
2008-05-15 07:38:05 <fonchik> touche
2008-05-15 07:38:48 <davewiner> i'm like alan kaye on this -- wikipedia is definitely worth criticizing
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2008-05-15 07:38:54 <davewiner> if it wasn't I wouldn't
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2008-05-15 07:40:37 <davidjoho> :)
2008-05-15 07:41:21 <alexleavitt> "something as gorgeous as this, the iPhone"... and ZR becomes Steve Jobs
2008-05-15 07:42:04 <ilteris_> lol
2008-05-15 07:43:10 <davewiner> i knew the pope used a mac
2008-05-15 07:43:25 <alexleavitt> white hair, white computer
2008-05-15 07:43:43 <fonchik> Don't knock it those product placements keep Berkman in pens
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2008-05-15 07:45:25 <jessamyn> and us all in playing cards.
2008-05-15 07:45:30 <wseltzer> "every photo of Steve Jobs is blurry"
2008-05-15 07:46:49 <KevinMarks> is the Zittrain the counterpoint to the Cluetrain?
2008-05-15 07:47:10 <wseltzer> won't anyone join me in applauding spam's possibility?
2008-05-15 07:47:30 <ahoward_> there's no real spam on Facebook? Hello, bacn? Application spam?
2008-05-15 07:47:44 <davewiner> now jz is being helpful
2008-05-15 07:47:49 <davewiner> lawyers run amok
2008-05-15 07:47:49 <devoncopley> you have to opt in to app spam on facebook
2008-05-15 07:47:52 <jordan____> did he just call us "the nerds?"
2008-05-15 07:47:53 <devoncopley> it's your own damn fault
2008-05-15 07:47:57 <KevinMarks> no you don't
2008-05-15 07:48:05 <KevinMarks> your freends send you it
2008-05-15 07:48:17 <joshuakauffman> friends are the new spam
2008-05-15 07:48:20 <devoncopley> with friends like that, who needs spam
2008-05-15 07:48:24 <ahoward_> it's my fault for being on Facebook, maybe.
2008-05-15 07:48:31 <TimHwang_> with spam like that, who needs friends
2008-05-15 07:48:45 <jessamyn> frenz
2008-05-15 07:48:57 <fonchik> I cannot wait for Facebook to be over
2008-05-15 07:49:19 <KevinMarks> I recommend orkut, you can see how everyone looked 4 years ago...
2008-05-15 07:49:47 <jessamyn> if you read portuguese
2008-05-15 07:49:57 <sc1olist> Yeah, exactly...ha.
2008-05-15 07:50:07 <davidjoho> i feel better about myself when i jaywalk.
2008-05-15 07:50:09 <ahoward_> @KevinMarks I log onto Friendster to see what 2002 looks like
2008-05-15 07:50:16 <davidjoho> I am such a rebel
2008-05-15 07:50:21 <jordan____> the question tool needs a character counter. can anyone hack the javascript.
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2008-05-15 07:50:41 <sc1olist> I telnet into my MUD to remind myself what a loser I was in 1998.
2008-05-15 07:50:46 <devoncopley> skeptical. they're doing that experiment in the whole country of vietnam. not working
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2008-05-15 07:51:00 <fonchik> Jordan: Hal Roberts could - Hal are you on?
2008-05-15 07:51:14 <davewiner> just posted a link to an article asking about mccain's health and people are complaining that i've resorted to republican tactics. amazing.
2008-05-15 07:51:20 <jordan____> It took too long to cut my question down to 255, that JZ addressed it before it got posted
2008-05-15 07:51:42 <luisv> just write it in your twitter tool first ;)
2008-05-15 07:52:57 <EricaG> Hal's down here in the overflow room
2008-05-15 07:53:13 <guan> can't we get the video feed in HD?
2008-05-15 07:53:27 <luisv> there is a video feed?
2008-05-15 07:53:29 <EricaG> i'm never going to live down that one shout-out
2008-05-15 07:53:39 <TimHwang_> yeah Erica!
2008-05-15 07:53:40 <guan> luisv: here in the overflow room
2008-05-15 07:53:55 <EricaG> Luis the webcast is linked from the social tools page
2008-05-15 07:54:05 <wseltzer> those who don't like governance are doomed to reinvent it, badly
2008-05-15 07:54:10 <guan> luisv: my shitty eyes can barely see anything, and he's poorly lit
2008-05-15 07:54:14 <EricaG> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/berkmanat10/Social_Tools
2008-05-15 07:54:54 <wseltzer> wow, that robots.txt is crufty
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2008-05-15 07:55:16 <wseltzer> we haven't run htdig in eons
2008-05-15 07:55:32 <davidjoho> olan mills?
2008-05-15 07:56:05 <guan> wseltzer: wget used to have a bug in the robots.txt parser that ignored lines ending in a space; hugely awkward for me
2008-05-15 07:56:07 <davewiner> most people are honorable
2008-05-15 07:56:17 <davewiner> the world wouldn't work if it weren't so
2008-05-15 07:56:22 <luisv> wseltzer: I think we were actually running htdig (or trying to) as recently as '06
2008-05-15 07:56:41 <ahoward_> Olan mills: http://listoftheday.blogspot.com/2007/09/great-olan-mills-photos.html
2008-05-15 07:57:13 <wseltzer> luisv: when did it last work :)
2008-05-15 07:57:28 <davidjoho> so , what's olan mills?
2008-05-15 07:57:36 <jessamyn> "this is about ethics" that's a example where it works, but man there's so many where it doesn't
2008-05-15 07:57:59 <jessamyn> Olan Mills, like Sears photo studio.
2008-05-15 07:58:03 <luisv> wseltzer: before '06 ;)
2008-05-15 07:58:13 <davidjoho> thx
2008-05-15 07:58:47 <guan> davewiner would twitter it
2008-05-15 07:58:57 <dwitzel> but he
2008-05-15 07:59:05 <dwitzel> 'd block you from seeing it
2008-05-15 07:59:38 <davewiner> wow that's disrespectful guan
2008-05-15 08:00:04 <guan> davewiner: sorry, i tried to be humorous
2008-05-15 08:00:22 <guan> davewiner: didn't quite hear what you said in here
2008-05-15 08:00:44 <ilteris_> me either. I wish the stream was better too.
2008-05-15 08:00:49 <davewiner> i would not have twittered it -- and I just asked for clarification didn't say anything
2008-05-15 08:01:03 <joshmahoney> wait, didn't JZ start late?
2008-05-15 08:01:34 <wseltzer> Questions on the screen: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/Berkmanat10
2008-05-15 08:01:59 <sc1olist> Yes, he did. Kind of unfair, actually.
2008-05-15 08:03:15 <wseltzer> Bradner: "Jonathan does hyperbole quite well"
2008-05-15 08:03:16 <msifry> who is this?
2008-05-15 08:03:33 <jessamyn> http://www.sobco.com/sob/sob.html
2008-05-15 08:03:38 <wseltzer> Scott Bradner speaking
2008-05-15 08:03:46 <joshmahoney> iPhone haz evil?! Oh n0z!
2008-05-15 08:03:53 <TimHwang_> JZ: "I'm ur your internet, predicting ur problemz."
2008-05-15 08:05:03 <EricaG> (re time: we have to stay on time cos the post-lunch panel needs to start on time, due to panelist travel schedules)
2008-05-15 08:05:55 <joshmahoney> fair enough EricaG - but JZ shouldn't apologize for going "late".. vice versa.
2008-05-15 08:05:58 <wseltzer> Bradner: the Internet fails to fail often enough that new fixes are needed
2008-05-15 08:06:28 <jessamyn> well JZ said 4.5 minutes....
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2008-05-15 08:07:27 <joshmahoney> his session started a good 20 mins late
2008-05-15 08:07:36 <EricaG> Micha, Scott Bradner is one of the long-time IETF engineers, head of network security @ Harvard, longtime Berkman affiliate
2008-05-15 08:07:40 <davidjoho> if they don't take a question from the Question Tool, people will give up on it.
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2008-05-15 08:07:59 <sc1olist> True, true. Though the ?s there aren't very good on there.
2008-05-15 08:08:13 <sc1olist> David Reed, or Rhee?
2008-05-15 08:08:16 <davidjoho> reed
2008-05-15 08:08:25 <sc1olist> Gracias.
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2008-05-15 08:08:27 <davidjoho> "end-to-end" argument reed
2008-05-15 08:08:32 <jwales> http://www.media.mit.edu/people/bio_dpreed.html
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2008-05-15 08:10:02 <jwales> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed%27s_law
2008-05-15 08:10:08 <fonchik> What's the opposite of "end-to-end"?
2008-05-15 08:10:30 <dsilverman> end to middle?
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2008-05-15 08:11:07 <ahoward_> ouroboros model? there is no end?
2008-05-15 08:11:15 <davidjoho> centralized
2008-05-15 08:11:20 <TimHwang_> "managed packet care"?
2008-05-15 08:11:22 <jessamyn> revolutionary fervor! tweedy revolutionary fervor!
2008-05-15 08:11:25 <jordan____> joho: go again and vote mine up. In fact the bot problem is a direct result of a closed platform.
2008-05-15 08:11:50 <jordan____> we can use the irc to control the question tool...
2008-05-15 08:12:28 <davidjoho> good question, jordan____________________________________
2008-05-15 08:12:42 <devoncopley> yup i'll freep it
2008-05-15 08:12:49 <EricaG> in an irc-mob vs twitter-mob, which would win?
2008-05-15 08:12:50 <wseltzer> Fisher: Are you a Federalist or an Anti-Federalist?
2008-05-15 08:12:52 <devoncopley> :)
2008-05-15 08:13:23 <davidjoho> I also like aaron's question: Does the future of the internet use institutions?
2008-05-15 08:13:54 <jessamyn> re: federalist "it depends"
2008-05-15 08:15:19 <wseltzer> Who's got a favorite question from the tool?
2008-05-15 08:15:46 <msifry> I just voted for doc's
2008-05-15 08:15:48 <jordan____> thanks. up to 10!
2008-05-15 08:16:02 <davidjoho> Personally, i sort of like mine about what has to change to get the social mechanisms to work, since they're not working now
2008-05-15 08:16:21 <davidjoho> because i'm not sure what jz would hae us do
2008-05-15 08:16:25 <davidjoho> hae=have
2008-05-15 08:16:41 <sc1olist> I think it's in the book.
2008-05-15 08:16:43 <sc1olist> He iddn't get to it.
2008-05-15 08:16:44 <wseltzer> I'll try to ask that and Aaron's re: institutions
2008-05-15 08:16:46 <joshmahoney> agreed davidjoho - i voted for yours
2008-05-15 08:16:59 <sc1olist> Yeah, I'd like to see that asked.
2008-05-15 08:17:00 <alexleavitt> Although Web 3.0 was introduced in the question tool, are we ready to define what Web 3.0 will be?
2008-05-15 08:17:08 <samgilb> as would I
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2008-05-15 08:17:44 <TimHwang_> agreed
2008-05-15 08:17:45 <joshmahoney> Question Tool = FAIL
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2008-05-15 08:18:29 <samgilb> thanks all, good discussion
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2008-05-15 08:20:13 <wseltzer> alas, too late to catch their attention
2008-05-15 08:20:17 <wseltzer> break now
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2008-05-15 08:41:32 <wseltzer> starting up; going to 1
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2008-05-15 08:42:13 <davewiner> sorry to be missing JP's talk
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2008-05-15 08:43:18 <ilteris__> when are we starting back again?
2008-05-15 08:43:33 <davidjoho> http://publius.cc
2008-05-15 08:43:59 <wseltzer> now-1, back at 2
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2008-05-15 08:47:11 <EricaG_> Has it started back up yet upstairs?
2008-05-15 08:47:16 <ahoward_> @davewiner It should be recorded and archived... but JP is on now
2008-05-15 08:47:19 <ahoward_> about the Publius projec
2008-05-15 08:47:37 <guan> screen is dark down here
2008-05-15 08:47:37 <ahoward_> http://publius.cc/
2008-05-15 08:47:53 <dwitzel> is it on upstairs?
2008-05-15 08:47:56 <davewiner> I'm really happy JP got the new job. It's a great place to spend the next few years. Libraries are where it's happening.
2008-05-15 08:48:03 * sc1olist (n=sc1olist@dhcp-0013978784-0e-22.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 08:48:16 <sc1olist> welcome back everyone
2008-05-15 08:48:33 <guan> we have sound, no video
2008-05-15 08:48:38 <EricaG_> is the webcast working for remote people, or just not working for us in the overflow room?
2008-05-15 08:48:41 <sc1olist> aw christ again?
2008-05-15 08:48:52 <sc1olist> I had someone report that the last one needed better keyframing but was working alright...
2008-05-15 08:48:57 * chrismillet (n=chatzill@dhcp-0013973058-8b-29.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 08:49:01 <EricaG_> we're listening to the sound via Persephone's ;laptop & the desk microphone
2008-05-15 08:49:11 <sc1olist> Are the video folks on the IRC?
2008-05-15 08:50:03 <msifry> and we're back
2008-05-15 08:50:23 <msifry> but i'm trying to take live blog notes for a post on this session, so snarking will be light
2008-05-15 08:50:33 * jordan_p (n=chatzill@dhcp-0013978820-b2-f2.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 08:51:21 <jessamyn> let us all endeavor to fill the snark vacuum
2008-05-15 08:51:44 * jake_shapiro (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000029028-b5-68.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 08:52:14 * fonchik (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000117886-f7-0a.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 08:52:15 <wseltzer> ethanz: we've gone from international news being a supply problem to a demand problem
2008-05-15 08:53:13 <fonchik> great eyepatch - too bad he didn't bring the parrot
2008-05-15 08:53:53 * dkims (n=XircUser@dhcp-0000042571-21-bb.client.student.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 08:54:05 <jessamyn> here's the "what's up with the eyepatch" post http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2008/05/10/reality-by-rothko/
2008-05-15 08:55:40 <jordan_p> ohh, did JP say that YesWeCan people are here??
2008-05-15 08:55:52 * dkims has quit (Remote closed the connection)
2008-05-15 08:55:53 <wseltzer> jordan_p, yes they are
2008-05-15 08:55:59 <wseltzer> or should that be YesTheyAre :)
2008-05-15 08:56:31 <fonchik> both Wes and Jesse are here, I registered them.
2008-05-15 08:56:55 * EricaG has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
2008-05-15 08:56:57 <jordan_p> I need a 2 second clip of the Israeli Actress for http://jewsforobama.com
2008-05-15 08:57:01 * OFF-meister (n=bway@c-98-198-183-215.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 08:57:11 <jordan_p> wendy, can u introduce me?
2008-05-15 08:57:37 <EricaG_> we just lost sound again
2008-05-15 08:57:40 <EricaG_> on the webcast
2008-05-15 08:58:02 <guan> can anyone here read lips?
2008-05-15 08:58:28 <wseltzer> John Kelly describing his map of the Farsi blogosphere
2008-05-15 08:58:31 <fonchik> DAvid W can you live IRC
2008-05-15 08:58:34 <OFF-meister> strange, just about that time safari crashed
2008-05-15 08:58:51 <ilteris__> yep
2008-05-15 08:58:54 <wseltzer> Every dot represents a blog, positioning=relationships
2008-05-15 08:58:54 <ilteris__> sound is gone
2008-05-15 08:59:01 <davidjoho> can I live IRC? I'm doing my best, but every now and then I need to eat something.
2008-05-15 08:59:04 * OFF-meister is now known as bway
2008-05-15 08:59:08 <davidjoho> i.e., i don't understand your question, fonchick
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2008-05-15 08:59:18 <EricaG_> we lost sound downstairs
2008-05-15 08:59:20 <wseltzer> links = "attentive gravity"
2008-05-15 08:59:28 <EricaG_> can anyone summarize for us til we get sound back
2008-05-15 08:59:30 <msifry> anyone know where we can find that image online?
2008-05-15 08:59:33 <wseltzer> color indicates their subject
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2008-05-15 08:59:40 <wseltzer> EricaG, that's what I'm trying to do
2008-05-15 08:59:40 <sc1olist> they cluster by linking histories
2008-05-15 08:59:56 <wseltzer> EricaG, do you have video?
2008-05-15 09:00:03 <EricaG_> we do have video
2008-05-15 09:00:04 <sc1olist> Size = # of inbound links
2008-05-15 09:00:05 <davidjoho> http://datamining.typepad.com/data_mining/images/2008/04/09/iranblogosphere.png
2008-05-15 09:00:06 <jessamyn> http://datamining.typepad.com/data_mining/images/2008/04/09/iranblogosphere.png
2008-05-15 09:00:15 <wseltzer> graph: what are the groups in society, how are they formed, what are they interested in
2008-05-15 09:00:22 <sc1olist> (going through the various typologies)
2008-05-15 09:00:26 <wseltzer> poetry, surprisingly large
2008-05-15 09:00:26 <msifry> http://blogs.reuters.com/reuters-editors/files/2008/04/picture-7.png
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2008-05-15 09:00:41 <fonchik> can someone tell Steve Garfield to turn his thing on ??
2008-05-15 09:00:50 <joshuakauffman> twelvers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelvers
2008-05-15 09:00:50 <wseltzer> 3 distinct subgroups of conservative, religious bloggers, but that's only a small part of the sphere
2008-05-15 09:00:54 <sc1olist> It's picking up in the room speakesr
2008-05-15 09:01:25 * Corinna_ (n=chatzill@c-76-24-18-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:01:40 <sc1olist> ((Here you can see how this public network dialogue is forming))
2008-05-15 09:02:01 <fonchik> corinna! How are you?
2008-05-15 09:02:02 <sc1olist> ((What you see is a picture of a population that is much clearer than the cartoon visions we get in the media))
2008-05-15 09:02:06 * Corinna_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)
2008-05-15 09:02:12 <wseltzer> Qs: where's ahmedinejad's blog -- big pink dot
2008-05-15 09:02:14 * KevinMarks has quit ("The computer fell asleep")
2008-05-15 09:02:31 <wseltzer> what's it say?: who's paying attention to them
2008-05-15 09:02:49 <EricaG_> now our picture is also frozen
2008-05-15 09:02:57 <ilteris__> same here :(
2008-05-15 09:03:06 <wseltzer> the picture hasn't changed
2008-05-15 09:03:09 <wseltzer> still the graph
2008-05-15 09:03:11 <fonchik> where is Steve Garfield? We need him to livecast
2008-05-15 09:03:12 <bway> getting a 404 on the feed
2008-05-15 09:03:14 <jessamyn> post about the image: http://datamining.typepad.com/data_mining/2008/04/map-of-iranian.html
2008-05-15 09:03:18 <guan> http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/
2008-05-15 09:03:24 <sc1olist> Question from the audience: Ellen Hume @ MIT
2008-05-15 09:03:31 <wseltzer> Ellen Hume, cfcm MIT, asks for map of voters 2008
2008-05-15 09:03:38 <jessamyn> Democratic voters
2008-05-15 09:03:39 <sc1olist> "Have you done this for voters in 2008?"
2008-05-15 09:04:01 <wseltzer> JP: give us the scoop
2008-05-15 09:04:08 * jordan_p_ (n=chatzill@dhcp-0013978820-b2-f2.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 09:04:29 <wseltzer> JK: liberal and conservative are largest clusters, distinct subgroups
2008-05-15 09:04:35 * jordan_p_ is now known as jordan_p
2008-05-15 09:05:09 <wseltzer> JK: interesting groups that straddle the divide, biggest is law
2008-05-15 09:05:23 <guan> eerily quiet down here. somebody say something.
2008-05-15 09:05:28 <EricaG_> how crowded is it in ames
2008-05-15 09:05:35 <sc1olist> Palfrey: Sessions can be created tomorow to self-organize
2008-05-15 09:05:35 <wseltzer> tomorrow, make-your-own sessions
2008-05-15 09:05:36 <EricaG_> can we send folks from the overflow up there
2008-05-15 09:05:51 <wseltzer> EricaG: sure, not too many seats, but welcome
2008-05-15 09:05:52 <EricaG_> we still got nothing
2008-05-15 09:06:19 <EricaG_> ok, some folks may go up
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2008-05-15 09:06:49 <EricaG_> oooh now we have sound
2008-05-15 09:06:54 <EricaG_> *crosses fingers*
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2008-05-15 09:07:23 <wseltzer> ok, so who brought the Faraday cage, then?
2008-05-15 09:07:48 <fonchik> We have audio and video again YAY
2008-05-15 09:07:55 * ilteris_ (n=ilteris@216.223.194.250) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:07:55 <wseltzer> is anyone using question tool this session? http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/list.php
2008-05-15 09:08:06 <sc1olist> I EMP'd the room. Sorry guys.
2008-05-15 09:08:17 <sc1olist> Oh, no, I think they were only using that for the Zittrain talk (insofar as it was actually ignored)
2008-05-15 09:08:28 * maryhodder (n=hodder@207.47.11.2.static.nextweb.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:08:40 <wseltzer> sorry, tried to get it into the conversation, but time pressed against
2008-05-15 09:08:55 <ilteris_> is there a low-bitrate of the stream somewhere?
2008-05-15 09:09:14 <jessamyn> question about Cass Sunstein's hypotheis
2008-05-15 09:10:05 <sc1olist> @Wseltzer: understandable.
2008-05-15 09:10:13 * davewiner has quit ()
2008-05-15 09:10:36 <EricaG_> We can use the question tool for this session too - it's for the wholke conference
2008-05-15 09:11:04 <EricaG_> doesn't necessarily mean that all QT questions will make it into live discussion - also have to take qs from folks not on laptops
2008-05-15 09:11:09 <ilteris_> is it really true that two different wings are reading each others blogs?
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2008-05-15 09:11:43 <jessamyn> also the QT questions stay up from speaker to speaker which diminishes its usefulness somewhat, no?
2008-05-15 09:11:51 <ilteris_> I remember reading otherwise in Nicholas Carr's book. People are becoming more fragmented
2008-05-15 09:12:37 * maryhodder has quit (Client Quit)
2008-05-15 09:13:08 <guan> map of where political speech is blocked on net
2008-05-15 09:14:20 * sama has quit (Connection timed out)
2008-05-15 09:14:32 <davidjoho> can we clear the question tool of the jz questions?
2008-05-15 09:15:16 <joshuakauffman> Rob Feris, Open Net Initiative: "dictator's dilemma" - do we let the conversation play out, or do we close it down?
2008-05-15 09:15:16 <fonchik> Daivdjoho: I will ask Hal to do that.
2008-05-15 09:15:40 <wseltzer> thanks fonchik
2008-05-15 09:15:51 * Chilmark (n=chatzill@dhcp-0013978831-d8-c9.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 09:16:25 <jessamyn> thanks
2008-05-15 09:17:01 <fonchik> JZ is working on it, there was a request to preserve it so as not to lose the questions, but we're working something out
2008-05-15 09:17:13 <jessamyn> is anyone else having a really hard time hearing this guy?
2008-05-15 09:17:29 <guan> they're also blocking poetry blogs that are a bit erotic
2008-05-15 09:18:08 <fonchik> This guy is Rob Faris, btw
2008-05-15 09:18:50 <fonchik> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/people/rfaris
2008-05-15 09:19:07 <jessamyn> super, thanks.
2008-05-15 09:19:38 <davidjoho> is the tool down at the moment? (and thanks, fonchik)
2008-05-15 09:20:06 <fonchik> Phillip Hallam-Baker, VeriSign Inc. speaking
2008-05-15 09:20:24 <guan> "the fact that it is censored gives it legitimacy"
2008-05-15 09:20:29 <wseltzer> Qtool now cleared (thanks all!) http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/list.php
2008-05-15 09:20:47 <fonchik> Bravo Zittrain!
2008-05-15 09:20:59 <davidjoho> i'm having trouble posting to the question tool
2008-05-15 09:21:25 <fonchik> what is your question?
2008-05-15 09:21:28 <jessamyn> "let's have a flash drive version of TOR if you really want to undermine dictators..."
2008-05-15 09:21:29 * redheadatwork has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
2008-05-15 09:21:33 <sc1olist> Flashdrive version of TOR? Sweet.
2008-05-15 09:21:34 <wseltzer> PHB is asking for Portable Tor
2008-05-15 09:21:41 <EricaG_> isn't torpark doing that?
2008-05-15 09:21:48 <ahoward_> flashdrive democracy
2008-05-15 09:21:48 <sc1olist> Josh Kaufman?
2008-05-15 09:21:48 <jordan_p> what is TOR
2008-05-15 09:22:00 <wseltzer> http://portabletor.sourceforge.net/
2008-05-15 09:22:00 <sc1olist> http://www.torproject.org/
2008-05-15 09:22:00 <davidjoho> the onion router
2008-05-15 09:22:10 <davidjoho> anonymizing router
2008-05-15 09:22:11 <guan> @jordan_p: network/software for anonymous internet use
2008-05-15 09:22:19 <wseltzer> Tor is the Onion Router network anonymizing technology
2008-05-15 09:22:21 <jordan_p> ok, got it.
2008-05-15 09:22:22 <jessamyn> http://www.joshuakauffman.org/
2008-05-15 09:22:25 <jessamyn> speaking now
2008-05-15 09:22:32 <wseltzer> Portable Tor is the USB flashdrive version
2008-05-15 09:22:50 <jessamyn> see also: http://en.oreilly.com/et2008/public/schedule/detail/1615
2008-05-15 09:23:04 <fonchik> Seems to work (Question Tool) did you refresh?
2008-05-15 09:23:08 <davidjoho> still unable to post at question tool
2008-05-15 09:23:11 <ThomasKriese> http://craphound.com/etech08_Swarm_Storm_Cuba.txt
2008-05-15 09:23:22 <davidjoho> yes, i've refreshed. i've also posted my stupid question about 8 times.
2008-05-15 09:23:25 <davidjoho> maybe the stupid filter is on
2008-05-15 09:23:34 * edmanm_ (i=edmanm@pasiphae.cs.rpi.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:23:37 <wseltzer> Davidjoho, you must be being censored
2008-05-15 09:23:56 <fonchik> Oh, yeah, I asked JZ to keep the riff raff out
2008-05-15 09:23:56 * dr|z3d (i=dr|z3d@gateway/tor/x-98eefc1b2b147ca1) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:24:06 <sc1olist> Better use amiblocked.com
2008-05-15 09:24:10 * sc1olist (n=sc1olist@dhcp-0013978784-0e-22.client.fas.harvard.edu) has left #berkman
2008-05-15 09:24:29 <davidjoho> damn. I knew I shouldn't have signed up for the AARR.
2008-05-15 09:24:34 * sc1olist (n=sc1olist@dhcp-0013978784-0e-22.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:24:42 <fonchik> JZ renamed the old session Berkmanat10leadup, maybe you're stuck there?
2008-05-15 09:25:04 <guan> "the question is not freedom of speech, the question is freedom after speech" (in fake russian accent)
2008-05-15 09:25:12 <goodell> By the way, there is a Tor browser bundle that runs on USB:
2008-05-15 09:25:13 <goodell> https://www.torproject.org/torbrowser/
2008-05-15 09:25:14 <davidjoho> nope. I'm at http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/Berkmanat10. Is that so wrong?
2008-05-15 09:25:35 <joshuakauffman> @jessamyn thanks!
2008-05-15 09:25:48 <jessamyn> sure, good to hear what you're up to!
2008-05-15 09:26:51 <fonchik> Just tell us your question already, we'll post it
2008-05-15 09:27:35 <sc1olist> This is a very good point.
2008-05-15 09:27:46 <fonchik> oh those damn people, they're so messy.
2008-05-15 09:28:20 <sc1olist> A huge numer of folks in countries that block, under a misshapen nationalism, actually do believe censorship is right. This idea that freedom of information is a human right is indeed a particularly American construction.
2008-05-15 09:28:51 <jessamyn> when I was in Dubai there was very little pushback against the web blocking they dealt with precisely because the elite could circumvent it
2008-05-15 09:29:14 <fonchik> As the country that brought you the PATRIOT act, who are we to call anyone else's nationalism misshapen?
2008-05-15 09:29:21 <msifry> Jeff who? last name please?
2008-05-15 09:30:07 <jessamyn> Jeff ooi
2008-05-15 09:30:10 <devoncopley> it's easy to bypass the "great firewall" of china - but even a small hurdle is high enough that the vast majority of users don't bother
2008-05-15 09:30:25 <jessamyn> it's awesome to be able to google "jeff malaysia" and find him
2008-05-15 09:30:30 * dsilverman (n=zeno@dhcp-0008355076-d1-17.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:30:37 <jessamyn> http://www.jeffooi.com/
2008-05-15 09:30:55 <msifry> thanks jessamyn!!
2008-05-15 09:31:47 <guan> james fallows wrote on the effects of the great firewall in the march atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/chinese-firewall
2008-05-15 09:32:16 <dwitzel> does anyone know if the great firewall is built on open source? i've always assumed...
2008-05-15 09:32:39 <luisv> cisco, so no
2008-05-15 09:32:48 <sc1olist> @Devon, yes, it is easy, but the deeper issue is one of will. Many of those I talked to in the PRC, I was horrifed to find, are convinced filtering is necessary to "protect" -- and they bring their own interpretation to what kind of protection is served; content, hegemonic cultural influence, whatever. It plugs into a very esoteric and threatening form of nationalistic fervor particular but not unique to Chinese society
2008-05-15 09:32:49 <dr|z3d> devoncopley: given that most network access is provisioned in highly monitored net cafes, it's not so easy to bypass china's firewall.
2008-05-15 09:33:12 <dr|z3d> easy in theory, sure, but not so in practice.
2008-05-15 09:33:59 <fonchik> http://bethkolko.com/
2008-05-15 09:34:00 <devoncopley> drlz3d: good point. users who don't own/control their machines have a much harder time.
2008-05-15 09:34:26 <guan> dr|z3d: a huge number of chinese have internet access at home, and not all net cafes are monitored, despite the government's attempts
2008-05-15 09:34:58 <guan> dr|z3d: most hotel rooms have free internet access behind NAT, and i doubt there are very sophisticated monitoring systems internally at the local 2 star hotel
2008-05-15 09:35:07 <davidjoho> If could post to the question tool (which I still can't), I'd ask whether there are real ways that the Net is worse for democracy? Or are we really asking _how_ good is it for democ?
2008-05-15 09:35:39 * beex (n=fetale@dhcp-0000116219-5b-03.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:35:47 <jessamyn> I asked it for you.
2008-05-15 09:36:08 <dr|z3d> essentially, then, there's an economic angle to censorship in china.
2008-05-15 09:36:18 <wseltzer> now it's there twice, so there, censors!
2008-05-15 09:36:28 <devoncopley> sc1olist: it's true that most don't object to the filtering, and the "fervor" you refer to is fed by the gov't-controlled media ... but mr. chomsky here in cambridge would say much the same thing happens in corp-dominated media in the west
2008-05-15 09:36:39 <davidjoho> thank you. thank you.
2008-05-15 09:36:46 * tchatter (n=chatzill@dhcp-0006196316-d6-32.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:37:43 <ahoward_> @devoncopley chomsky might say it but traffic shaping doesn't equal traffic censorship, a la Great Firewall
2008-05-15 09:38:06 <sc1olist> @wseltzer, yes, that argument can be made, and it's certainly valid in a structural sense, but it depends on how you parse "deeply-entrenched values", if they're socially constructed or externally-impressed. I am more in favor o the notion that the idea of freedom of access to information as a human right is indeed socially-construced, and that may ultimtaely reinforce a particularistic "American" worldview, but that doe
2008-05-15 09:38:30 * beex has quit ("leaving")
2008-05-15 09:39:24 <wseltzer> @sc1olist, sync problem? not sure what you're responding to
2008-05-15 09:39:35 <jessamyn> youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMl3JFulO0A
2008-05-15 09:39:36 <davidjoho> the fact that the net was created architecturally without a built-in ability to censor at its center builds into the net architecture a preference for Western-style openness of info.
2008-05-15 09:39:39 * beex (n=fetale@dhcp-0000116219-5b-03.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 09:39:42 <beex> <C2><B2>
2008-05-15 09:39:46 <sc1olist> @wseltzer ((apologies, meant to be @devoncople))
2008-05-15 09:39:48 <jessamyn> cuban students criticize the government
2008-05-15 09:39:58 <sc1olist> @davidjoho absolutely.
2008-05-15 09:40:43 <EricaG_> (fyi i modded out the duplicate of david's question that didn't have the comments or votes on it)
2008-05-15 09:40:49 <devoncopley> davidjoho: simultaneously, that architectural philosophy also helps give rise to the fragile "participatory hallucination" nature that JZ was discussing
2008-05-15 09:40:58 <ThomasKriese> link to vid on YouTube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=EMl3JFulO0A
2008-05-15 09:41:34 <ahoward_> @davidjoho Could passing ICANN into international hands potentially move the Net as a whole into more walled gardens with centralized control and filtering at the backbone level?
2008-05-15 09:41:52 <davidjoho> exactly, @devoncopley, which is why the values baked into the architecture can be so easily subverted.
2008-05-15 09:42:16 <davidjoho> @ahoward, that's a great question for (a) @wendy and (b) the question tool.
2008-05-15 09:42:43 <sc1olist> @ahoward -- Yes. And that's terrifying.
2008-05-15 09:42:47 <jessamyn> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-hpi5Fu0p0 current vid
2008-05-15 09:42:50 <sc1olist> But let's do ask it
2008-05-15 09:42:59 <fonchik> The Russians and the Chinese are working on that.
2008-05-15 09:43:04 <jessamyn> Cuban student forced to rescind his statement
2008-05-15 09:43:22 <wseltzer> foreign embassies pass out flash drives like candy
2008-05-15 09:43:38 <sc1olist> Is there still no audio downstairs?
2008-05-15 09:44:01 <EricaG_> we've had audio downstairs for a while now
2008-05-15 09:44:05 <EricaG_> we were out for about 10 min
2008-05-15 09:44:11 <devoncopley> @ahoward_ - we can't have one without the other, though, right? we can't address the fragility of the current architecture without simultaneously damaging the net's ability to "route around" censorship. or can we?
2008-05-15 09:45:10 <ahoward_> a catch 22 for the 21st century. more robust networks could mean less robust communication
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2008-05-15 09:47:33 <jessamyn> Ellen Miller/Micah Sifry http://www.sunlightfoundation.com/ http://www.sunlightfoundation.com/about/bios
2008-05-15 09:47:40 <wseltzer> @ahoward_, not sure ICANN's control is strong enough to be meaningful (thankfully)
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2008-05-15 09:48:17 <davidjoho> i missed the project she's talking about...
2008-05-15 09:48:29 <wseltzer> Public Markup
2008-05-15 09:48:34 <davidjoho> thx
2008-05-15 09:48:43 <wseltzer> http://publicmarkup.org/
2008-05-15 09:48:44 <jessamyn> http://publicmarkup.org/
2008-05-15 09:48:45 <ahoward_> I'm also not sure that the USMIL will loosen its control of the Internet entirely either... ARPANET lives on, with Carnivore/TIA attached
2008-05-15 09:49:21 <jessamyn> http://fedspending.org/
2008-05-15 09:49:47 <sc1olist> I'd take a CARNIVORE-laden net to an internationally-governed one, begrudgingly. It's all about relative risk.
2008-05-15 09:50:28 <PHB> International government does not mean what you think it means
2008-05-15 09:51:06 <PHB> If you have an international system you will have international government
2008-05-15 09:51:17 <davidjoho> How about a CARNIVORE-bin-laden net?
2008-05-15 09:51:21 <PHB> The question is who the acknowledged stakeholders will be
2008-05-15 09:51:56 <sc1olist> Correction: international governance of any aspect of net protocols/ANN/ &c.
2008-05-15 09:51:57 <PHB> davifjoho, you have that today, the important data is in the public feeds
2008-05-15 09:52:09 <sc1olist> Indeed.
2008-05-15 09:52:30 <PHB> sc1olist why would that be so bad? you can write a spec but you cannot get people to deploy let alone use
2008-05-15 09:53:04 <jordan_p> i predict ronpaul will join bob barr on the libertarian ticket..
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2008-05-15 09:54:00 <jessamyn> Yochai Benkler http://benkler.org/
2008-05-15 09:54:06 <sc1olist> (I'm afraid it's a longer explanation than I can give here, but the short answer is my conviction that that which underlies the internet's true value is the content side of JZ's generativity argument, and that even governments like the UK, let alone Burma, don't have instilled in them a respect for the philosophy of free speech that underpins that fact. Therefore, they shouldn't be given a seat at the table.)
2008-05-15 09:54:14 <devoncopley> paul said some nice things about obama:
2008-05-15 09:54:15 <devoncopley> http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/02/paul-not-ready-to-endorse-mccain-likes-obamas-foreign-policy/
2008-05-15 09:54:17 <wseltzer> Benker: "I'm sorry, I didn't do the reading,"; JP "You did the writing"
2008-05-15 09:54:33 <sc1olist> Haha nice line
2008-05-15 09:54:55 <jordan_p> my question is that democracy isn't the right thing. It only works in very limited domains.
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2008-05-15 09:55:42 <devoncopley> @sc1olist: i agree with you, but who is to impose such a normative judgement? and on what basis?
2008-05-15 09:55:42 <Chilmark> well, this is the US and we are at the law school so not so surprising it has democracy as a leading topic
2008-05-15 09:55:43 <jordan_p> its about governance which involves reason
2008-05-15 09:55:58 <dr|z3d> that's a statement, jordan_p.. not a question!
2008-05-15 09:56:13 <jordan_p> 255 characters (:
2008-05-15 09:56:14 <xu_> dr|z3d: zing
2008-05-15 09:56:32 <dr|z3d> democracy is a sham.
2008-05-15 09:56:39 <moot> where's the mike gravel love: http://youtube.com/watch?v=TI6PA4v6dZg
2008-05-15 09:56:44 <sc1olist> Oh, now we're getting deep. haha.
2008-05-15 09:56:59 <dr|z3d> it purports to represent the populace, but only serves to represent limited self interest.
2008-05-15 09:57:06 <davidjoho> we should probably be talking about open discourse or free speech, rather than democracy. No?
2008-05-15 09:57:25 <moot> if ron paul did the soulja boy, maybe he'd be the presumptive nominee by now!
2008-05-15 09:57:28 <devoncopley> yes, rhetorical questions.
2008-05-15 09:57:48 <sc1olist> moot has really hit on something.
2008-05-15 09:58:35 <davidjoho> lord knows, I find mike gravel's deep, probing videos have me rethinking my political commitment
2008-05-15 09:58:48 <fonchik> wendy - speak up on behalf of qustion tool?
2008-05-15 09:58:55 <xu_> yeah, thanks for showing us rock via your blog, davidjoho
2008-05-15 09:59:54 <wseltzer> We've at least got the Q tool up on screen, with DavidW's question
2008-05-15 10:00:24 <wseltzer> and the good dialogue below it
2008-05-15 10:01:15 <guan> who is talking? url?
2008-05-15 10:01:17 <ahoward_> @davidjoho's focus on free speech vs. democracy, I would think the two are rather intertwined. the fourth estate, and now the blogosphere, matters
2008-05-15 10:01:32 <fonchik> ah, ok, I'm downstairs, didn't realize
2008-05-15 10:01:37 <jessamyn> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/mediaberkman/2007/02/21/rehabilitation-and-restorative-justice-in-jamaicas-prisons/
2008-05-15 10:01:52 <jessamyn> I think it's Kevin Wallen http://www.kevinwallen.com/cms/
2008-05-15 10:02:06 <jessamyn> yes
2008-05-15 10:02:12 <guan> kthx
2008-05-15 10:02:26 <fonchik> @ ahoward free speech is a necessary but not sufficient condition for democracy, no?
2008-05-15 10:02:29 <sc1olist> Someone on Berkman staff please speak up on behalf of the ? tool...?
2008-05-15 10:02:33 <xu_> http://sset.wordpress.com/
2008-05-15 10:02:40 <xu_> that's the project kevin works on
2008-05-15 10:02:41 <davidjoho> @ahoward - definitely intertwined. But the talk of the net's effect on democ leads us to think (perhaps) that it only succeeds if it topples tyrants, whereas its most direct effect is on the ability of people to speak their minds.
2008-05-15 10:02:47 <davidjoho> and speaking minds may, of course, topple tyrants
2008-05-15 10:03:14 <davidjoho> @sc 1 - I did after the last session. I'll mention it again.
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2008-05-15 10:03:30 <sc1olist> @davidjoho great thanks
2008-05-15 10:03:32 <sc1olist> later folks
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2008-05-15 10:03:33 <ahoward_> @fonchik Absolutely agreed. Necessary to preserve but rarely enough to establish initially.
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2008-05-15 10:03:34 <ahoward_> thx all
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2008-05-15 10:03:41 <daithi> lunchtime!
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2008-05-15 10:03:47 <guan> yeah!
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2008-05-15 10:03:48 <beex> everybody go to #lunch
2008-05-15 10:03:49 <wseltzer> breaking for lunch, returning @2
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2008-05-15 10:03:52 <wseltzer> thanks!
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2008-05-15 10:04:11 <wseltzer> qtool was on screen, still hard to get into the speech flow...
2008-05-15 10:04:16 <wseltzer> will keep trying
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2008-05-15 11:03:59 <ilteris_> are we starting?
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2008-05-15 11:04:21 <mooptop> RON PAUL, #berkman
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2008-05-15 11:06:53 <ilteris_> I wish there was audio only stream of the conference.
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2008-05-15 11:15:54 <daithi> Would love to see the playlist for the background music.
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2008-05-15 11:16:22 <TimHwang__> was that feist earlier?
2008-05-15 11:17:09 <daithi> I think so. And there was something English (possibly Kate Nash) that has played twice. Just curious as to if this is someone's Mp3 collection, or if there's a theme...
2008-05-15 11:17:51 <ilteris_> I don't think there's a theme :)
2008-05-15 11:18:24 <daithi> Pity. Could have crowdsourced it. "If the Berkman Center was a song, what would it be"
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2008-05-15 11:19:06 <TimHwang__> heh, i'm still waiting for the cyberlaw-themed playlist
2008-05-15 11:19:15 <TimHwang__> "Every Step You Take" -- ONI
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2008-05-15 11:20:16 <ilteris_> so Yochai Benkler is next right?
2008-05-15 11:20:24 <sc1olist> yeah
2008-05-15 11:20:26 <sc1olist> And Jimbo
2008-05-15 11:21:42 <daithi> "Cooperation" is the theme.
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2008-05-15 11:22:19 <sc1olist> Can someone clear the online ?s list again?
2008-05-15 11:23:02 <msifry> and we'reback from lunch
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2008-05-15 11:23:51 <sc1olist> Satisfaction with the lasagna everyone? 1-10
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2008-05-15 11:26:01 <jessamyn> Jimmy Wales speaking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wales http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales
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2008-05-15 11:26:48 <davidjoho> I've moved to the comfort of the overflow room. It's like upgrading from coach to business class. Plus, the movie is free!
2008-05-15 11:27:03 <sc1olist> The only downside is that your plane crashes every 20 minutes or os.
2008-05-15 11:27:04 <sc1olist> *so
2008-05-15 11:27:04 <daithi> But the heckling may be more difficult ;)
2008-05-15 11:27:17 <guan> we should have a special heckling channel
2008-05-15 11:27:27 <sc1olist> I'm all for that.
2008-05-15 11:27:39 <davidjoho> we could use this if we implement some markup to indicate heckles
2008-05-15 11:27:48 <guan> #heckle
2008-05-15 11:27:55 <ahoward_> <heckle>
2008-05-15 11:27:56 <davidjoho> <heck>So's your old man!</heck>
2008-05-15 11:28:13 <daithi> *rabble rubble hum ho*
2008-05-15 11:28:15 <sc1olist> I don't have time in my heckling for carrot-tags.
2008-05-15 11:28:53 <guan> true re: flamewar
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2008-05-15 11:29:07 <davidjoho> ok, so we can use all caps.
2008-05-15 11:29:09 <msifry> where's the coffee?
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2008-05-15 11:29:13 <davidjoho> SO'S YOUR OLD MAN
2008-05-15 11:29:13 <jessamyn> "most people are horrible and the internet makes them worse, therefore wikipedia is impossible"
2008-05-15 11:29:15 <davidjoho> does that work for you?
2008-05-15 11:29:23 <sc1olist> All gone I think. :(
2008-05-15 11:29:34 <jessamyn> they removed all stimulants and cake.
2008-05-15 11:29:35 <pde_was_stolen> "volume of non spam on usenet is decreasing"
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2008-05-15 11:29:45 <pde_was_stolen> except, reportedly, for alt.binaries
2008-05-15 11:29:48 <ahoward_> oh no! the coffee and cake is gone. sad me.
2008-05-15 11:29:49 <daithi> Jimmy says we're not laughing enough.
2008-05-15 11:29:57 <xu_> where is this steak, jimmy?
2008-05-15 11:30:00 <sc1olist> LAUGH UNCONTROLLABLY --and with no prompting.
2008-05-15 11:30:01 <daithi> Overflow room, how are the giggles with you?
2008-05-15 11:30:01 <jessamyn> can we dim the lights in the Big Room some?
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2008-05-15 11:30:04 <ahoward_> we laughed about knives and cages
2008-05-15 11:30:24 <wseltzer> you need the lights down?
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2008-05-15 11:30:44 <melanieddr> melanieddr
2008-05-15 11:30:58 <sc1olist> nice -- thank you light god
2008-05-15 11:31:04 <daithi> also known as Wendy
2008-05-15 11:31:09 <xu_> question tool is still unwiped
2008-05-15 11:31:13 <jessamyn> omg this is the best magic lantern ever, thanks!
2008-05-15 11:31:17 <sc1olist> bargh
2008-05-15 11:31:51 <sc1olist> @xu_ : any idea who on the irc is in charge of the ?tool?
2008-05-15 11:32:00 <davidjoho> plastic knives on planes just make hijacking a longer and _much_ messier process.
2008-05-15 11:32:03 <xu_> not a clue
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2008-05-15 11:32:17 <goodell> sc1olist: what tool?
2008-05-15 11:32:23 <xu_> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/berkmanat10
2008-05-15 11:32:33 <goodell> ah, the Question Tool
2008-05-15 11:32:35 <goodell> hmm
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2008-05-15 11:32:38 <sc1olist> (beat me to it, xu.)
2008-05-15 11:32:47 <ilteris_> streaming is incredibly good. thanks for that
2008-05-15 11:32:57 <xu_> What is the definition of "reasonable"?
2008-05-15 11:33:01 <sc1olist> Finally; taking dictation last time was getting a bit tiring.
2008-05-15 11:33:04 <xu_> when he says "we try to present all the reasonable sides"?
2008-05-15 11:33:08 <davidjoho> Breaking news: CA court oks gay marriage.
2008-05-15 11:33:19 <sc1olist> Jimbo does not explain things like that. He's an impressionist
2008-05-15 11:33:22 <xu_> wooo!
2008-05-15 11:33:24 <xu_> hahaha
2008-05-15 11:33:28 <daithi> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/16/us/15cnd-marriage.html
2008-05-15 11:33:28 <sc1olist> Whoa really?
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2008-05-15 11:33:30 <sc1olist> damn
2008-05-15 11:33:31 <guan> ruling http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/S147999.PDF
2008-05-15 11:33:34 <sc1olist> See how long until it's on drudge
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2008-05-15 11:33:43 <sc1olist> Ha it's on
2008-05-15 11:33:51 <sc1olist> No siren though.
2008-05-15 11:33:54 <sc1olist> :(
2008-05-15 11:34:15 <xu_> i have such trouble with this concept of neutrality
2008-05-15 11:34:30 <sc1olist> @xu the problem with this approach, which he gave last time I heard him talk, is that it's hijacked by large numbers or speed in numbers.
2008-05-15 11:34:33 <fonchik> Mary's working on the Q. Tool
2008-05-15 11:34:44 <xu_> yeah
2008-05-15 11:34:50 <ahoward_> so did Foucalt...
2008-05-15 11:35:01 <sc1olist> @ah-d: lol.
2008-05-15 11:35:04 <xu_> this sounds very nesson-esque
2008-05-15 11:35:22 <wseltzer> qtool cleared. Thanks!
2008-05-15 11:35:22 <sc1olist> Nesson must be something of a cult figure around here, eh? He seems like the type to command a good enturouage
2008-05-15 11:35:26 <sc1olist> Thank!!
2008-05-15 11:35:39 <xu_> sc1olist: have you seen the I'm with eon shirts?
2008-05-15 11:35:45 <xu_> they're *amazing*
2008-05-15 11:35:55 <sc1olist> @xu, haha, no, link?
2008-05-15 11:36:04 <ahoward_> just in case you aren't tracking twitter convo: http://twemes.com/berkman
2008-05-15 11:36:12 <xu_> no link, there's just a couple of people wearing them around
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2008-05-15 11:37:09 <sc1olist> @xu I'll look out for 'em.
2008-05-15 11:37:24 <xu_> they're grey
2008-05-15 11:37:28 <davidjoho> I once asked jimbo about neutrality, foucault, etc. He said that he doesn't care that much about french philosophy and that for him, a post is neutral when no one is editing it any more
2008-05-15 11:37:30 <davidjoho> something like that
2008-05-15 11:37:40 <davidjoho> i think that's a really useful operational definiition of "neutrality."
2008-05-15 11:38:02 <daithi> The French philosophers would probably see that as a philosophy in itself, of course. Don't tell him.
2008-05-15 11:38:03 <xu_> haha
2008-05-15 11:38:04 <pde_was_stolen> davidjoho: but correct only while the transaction costs for editing are small
2008-05-15 11:38:07 <sc1olist> @dajo: I think he presumes an equilibrium of information neutrality that frankly doesn't exist.
2008-05-15 11:38:21 <xu_> that's good, but it's also kind of a useful definition for "irrelevant"
2008-05-15 11:38:23 <wseltzer> Mary sporting an I'm with eon t-shirt: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wseltzer/2494641037/
2008-05-15 11:38:25 <davidjoho> sc 1, say more
2008-05-15 11:38:34 <davidjoho> pde, yes, that sounds right
2008-05-15 11:38:39 <pde_was_stolen> (compared to the value of the result)
2008-05-15 11:39:08 <davidjoho> and note that something can be no longer edited because a homogeneous group is doing the editing. So, neutrality here does not presume objectivity.
2008-05-15 11:39:15 <daithi> @wendy: can we buy those t-shirts?
2008-05-15 11:39:49 <sc1olist> @dajo: Well, he presumes that there is a neutral end-state, that once the "collective" has spoken, it will accurately reflect the agreed-upon fundamental truth. He ignores the fact that those editing represent a kind of inherently-biased knowledge aristocracy.
2008-05-15 11:40:05 <wseltzer> @daithi, ask someone at the registration desk
2008-05-15 11:40:06 <sc1olist> Now that may be no different from the "way it was" -- only authors or intellects could get books published.
2008-05-15 11:40:09 <davidjoho> sc 1, i don't think he ignores that at all.
2008-05-15 11:40:18 <sc1olist> But that flies in the face of what Wikipedia, in his explanation, should be.
2008-05-15 11:40:23 <sc1olist> Okay, explain?
2008-05-15 11:40:23 <daithi> thx
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2008-05-15 11:40:51 <davidjoho> in fact, his def of neutrality works within various value groups -- the french article on hstory of flight can be neutral even though it differs from the english (andequally neutral) view
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2008-05-15 11:41:10 <xu_> davidjoho: that's really interesting!
2008-05-15 11:41:25 <devoncopley> those groups are defacto defined by language
2008-05-15 11:41:36 <guan> davidjoho: what if someone is bilingual and tries to merge the two articles?
2008-05-15 11:41:48 <sc1olist> @dajo: ah, that's a good articulation. And as a whole, it works. But article-to-article, it's tyranny of a majority.
2008-05-15 11:41:56 <fonchik> Guan: the person's brain will explode.
2008-05-15 11:41:58 <jessamyn> http://ask.metafilter.com/57644/Warning-this-is-a-bad-site
2008-05-15 11:41:59 <sc1olist> Or the most active.
2008-05-15 11:42:15 * EricaG (n=EricaG@dhcp-0000074987-c9-6e.client.student.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 11:42:21 <jessamyn> [thread YB was showing from MeFi]
2008-05-15 11:43:02 <davidjoho> But what isn't a tyranny of the majority? And since the neutral positions are reached through conversation, where's the tyranny? Unless you're defining culture itself as a tyranny.
2008-05-15 11:43:22 <devoncopley> wait, @sc1olist, is it tyranny of a majority or of a privileged elite?
2008-05-15 11:43:32 <devoncopley> both?
2008-05-15 11:43:43 <guan> davidjoho: "culture is tyranny" - should be on a t-shirt
2008-05-15 11:43:43 <xu_> i think it's more the privileged elite
2008-05-15 11:43:53 <xu_> in that they compose of the majority online
2008-05-15 11:43:56 <davidjoho> Guan, i think you probably end up with an uber-article that says, "The French credit X with the invention, while the Americans credit Y." Not very satisfying, albeit informative.
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2008-05-15 11:44:12 <devoncopley> where's the privilege when anyone can participate? simple literacy as a bar to entry? isn't that a feature not a bug?
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2008-05-15 11:44:34 <fonchik> In some circumstances what you get is not the wisdom of the crowd but the lowest common denominator
2008-05-15 11:44:39 <davidjoho> well, devoncopley, anyone can participate if they have a device, a network, skills, opposed thumbs ...
2008-05-15 11:44:40 <sc1olist> @dajo: okay, to be fair, I'm just okay's devil's advocate here, I actually agree with you. BUT, @decon, both. It's tyranny of those with the most access to technology and with the most time (arist) and those most able to sway the dialogue on what constitutes an acceptable contributio (majority)
2008-05-15 11:44:45 <xu_> devoncopley: digital divide?
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2008-05-15 11:45:12 <sc1olist> @xu: Yes. And it's deeper than that. It's about digital literacy. And a deeper desire of individuals--not shared equally--to skew discourse.
2008-05-15 11:45:13 <jessamyn> yeah it's a real illusion that anyone can participate
2008-05-15 11:45:18 <davidjoho> there's no doubt that wikipedia initially heavily reflected geek culture. And it still does to some degree.
2008-05-15 11:45:20 <sc1olist> Not necessarily negatively. But skew nonetheless.
2008-05-15 11:45:22 <jessamyn> more and more people have access but not know-how
2008-05-15 11:45:25 <xu_> yes, absolutely it's deeper than that
2008-05-15 11:45:28 <xu_> but at a very basic level
2008-05-15 11:45:32 <xu_> as was brought up earlier
2008-05-15 11:45:33 <daithi> interesting element on the elite point (david/devon/etc discussing) - http://www.calacanis.com/2007/02/20/technological-obscurification-three-ways-wikipedia-keeps-99-of/ - don't really agree with it but fun to read
2008-05-15 11:45:36 <devoncopley> @davidjoho: that is a limitation of the medium not of wikipedia
2008-05-15 11:45:42 <Frank_Paynter> not receiving audio on live feed
2008-05-15 11:45:42 <xu_> a place like jamaica doesn't have wide-spread internet access
2008-05-15 11:45:49 <xu_> which is why the jamaican articles are crap on wikipedia
2008-05-15 11:45:55 <sc1olist> @dajo: Sure it does: most of wikipedia is, after all, largely one series of embedded, hidden references to Naruto.
2008-05-15 11:45:58 <jessamyn> neither does a place like Vermont in many ways, same thing
2008-05-15 11:46:07 <sc1olist> @xu True, true.
2008-05-15 11:46:07 <xu_> absolutely, jessamyn
2008-05-15 11:46:10 <davidjoho> which is why the article on maple syrup sucks.
2008-05-15 11:46:13 <xu_> hahaha
2008-05-15 11:46:14 * madamelevy is now known as treeshapiro
2008-05-15 11:46:17 <moot__> kage bunshin no jutsu
2008-05-15 11:46:18 <xu_> davidjoho: zing
2008-05-15 11:46:19 <sc1olist> why is he yelling?
2008-05-15 11:46:23 <davidjoho> I shoud hae put in the <heck> tags.
2008-05-15 11:46:27 <daithi> becuase you can MAKE MONEY
2008-05-15 11:46:39 <jessamyn> which is why there is an ihop in every state but VT
2008-05-15 11:46:44 <xu_> is yochai going to put these slides online?
2008-05-15 11:46:53 <sc1olist> Oh! I like making money...I should probably be paying more attention then.
2008-05-15 11:47:00 <davidjoho> i blogged last night about zenzuu, a social network/pyramid scheme.
2008-05-15 11:47:01 <devoncopley> thanks for the link @daithi - i think the bias here is more to individuals who care enough about a topic to jump the hurdles
2008-05-15 11:47:02 <joshuakauffman> 17695 unread emails
2008-05-15 11:47:10 <devoncopley> tyranny of the interested
2008-05-15 11:47:13 <sc1olist> LOL
2008-05-15 11:47:16 <davidjoho> :)
2008-05-15 11:47:20 <TimHwang__> everyone on the internet wants to talk to YB
2008-05-15 11:47:24 <sc1olist> Yochai needs to readz him some email.
2008-05-15 11:47:26 <joshuakauffman> (Benkler's inbox)
2008-05-15 11:47:44 <msifry> davidjoho: i loved that post...it reminded me of all those newspaper columns where the foreign correspondent talks to his cabdriver and then "reports"
2008-05-15 11:48:08 <devoncopley> @davidjoho: link?
2008-05-15 11:48:30 <daithi> http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/2008/05/14/zenzuu-the-social-network-with-a-one-track-mind/
2008-05-15 11:48:41 <daithi> best bit : "Iâm not sure because itâs in a font designed by and for squirrels"
2008-05-15 11:48:48 <davidjoho> msifry, thanks, but i'm too much of a coward to have told you more about the cab driver who was flogging "his" site, telling me that he's sure they'll have a million users by August, but, no he's never personally visited facebook or myspace.
2008-05-15 11:48:48 * jcallina (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000078918-cd-8a.client.student.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 11:49:38 <davidjoho> when you're not using shared bandwidth, you should watch the video I linked to. It is the definition of "shady"
2008-05-15 11:50:04 * vicki has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]")
2008-05-15 11:50:30 <ahoward_> @davidjoho When are we NOT using shared bandwidth? </snark>
2008-05-15 11:50:31 * Helmi has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]")
2008-05-15 11:50:39 <EricaG> davidjoho no, i'm the real slim shady ;)
2008-05-15 11:50:56 <davidjoho> I am Spartacus.
2008-05-15 11:51:08 <ahoward_> I am Iron Man?
2008-05-15 11:51:09 <jcallina> ericag, please standup, please stand up
2008-05-15 11:51:27 <davewiner> how about the wiki-stock-market page?
2008-05-15 11:51:38 <davewiner> let's say I own APPL stock
2008-05-15 11:51:42 <davewiner> and the price went down
2008-05-15 11:51:47 <davewiner> but I'd rather have it go up
2008-05-15 11:51:56 <davewiner> just edit the stock page to make it work the way I want to
2008-05-15 11:52:01 <davewiner> much better solution!
2008-05-15 11:52:11 <davewiner> :-)
2008-05-15 11:52:22 <davewiner> if you flame me
2008-05-15 11:52:22 <msifry> i print my own currency, same idea
2008-05-15 11:52:30 <davewiner> we'll have to ban you
2008-05-15 11:52:32 <davewiner> so sorry
2008-05-15 11:52:33 <msifry> faster ROI
2008-05-15 11:52:33 <davewiner> :-(
2008-05-15 11:52:46 <davewiner> many advantages!!
2008-05-15 11:52:47 <ahoward_> engadget works better, Dave. your edit on Wikipedia would get taken down right away and would be relatively low traffic
2008-05-15 11:52:56 <ahoward_> now, scripting.net...
2008-05-15 11:53:21 <xu_> whoa, andrew keen is here?
2008-05-15 11:53:22 <davewiner> ahoward, sorry we'd have to ban you for flaming people
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2008-05-15 11:53:38 <guan> game theory has very specific predictions? realistic games have gazillions of equilibria...
2008-05-15 11:53:57 <treeshapiro> where are these stats coming from?
2008-05-15 11:54:15 <daithi> we have to get these slides on the web
2008-05-15 11:54:22 <EricaG> keen is here? or just taking that from the Q on the Q tool?
2008-05-15 11:54:27 <msifry> is all this research about the commons happening now because the internet has shown that it's viable, or is the internet making the research itself viable?
2008-05-15 11:54:40 <sc1olist> Hey, did you guys know JZ is going to be on Colbert in a couple of weeks?
2008-05-15 11:54:56 <jessamyn> I want to see JZ and JayZ on Clobert
2008-05-15 11:54:57 <xu_> i don't know
2008-05-15 11:54:57 <xu_> yeah, taking it from the Q
2008-05-15 11:54:57 <xu_> really?
2008-05-15 11:55:02 <davewiner> benkler speaks very quickl
2008-05-15 11:55:04 <sc1olist> Yeah.
2008-05-15 11:55:05 <xu_> i just want to see JZ and Jay Z anywhere
2008-05-15 11:55:18 <xu_> i missed my Henry Jenkins / Leeroy Jenkins photo op at ROFLCon =(
2008-05-15 11:55:22 <EricaG> They could do a rap together on the future of the net :D
2008-05-15 11:55:27 <davewiner> punishment and reward
2008-05-15 11:55:29 <treeshapiro> i missed the slick rick gig
2008-05-15 11:55:32 <davewiner> absolutely central
2008-05-15 11:55:36 <xu_> i got 99 problems, generativity ain't one
2008-05-15 11:55:37 <davewiner> crowding out
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2008-05-15 11:55:43 <sc1olist> @xu Ha! At one point earlier someone referred to him as J-Z, but put the stress on it wrong, and I certainly thought they were referring to Jay-Z for a moment.
2008-05-15 11:55:53 <sc1olist> @xu lol
2008-05-15 11:55:55 * Shashwat has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]")
2008-05-15 11:55:57 <msifry> there's no way to speak fast on IRC
2008-05-15 11:56:03 <daithi> yes
2008-05-15 11:56:05 <daithi> there
2008-05-15 11:56:06 <daithi> is
2008-05-15 11:56:07 <jessamyn> what's the ROLFcon B@10 overlap?
2008-05-15 11:56:26 <sc1olist> they're *everywhere*. Sleeper cells of 'em in the audience.
2008-05-15 11:56:27 <davewiner> does benkler ever finish a sentence?
2008-05-15 11:56:34 <treeshapiro> lost sound here
2008-05-15 11:56:39 <msifry> How to design for cooperation. That's the big question.
2008-05-15 11:56:41 <daithi> Watching Benkler's slides is like watching a movie in fast forward
2008-05-15 11:56:45 <msifry> Benkler in 10 seconds.
2008-05-15 11:56:49 <xu_> yeah
2008-05-15 11:56:53 <davewiner> whew
2008-05-15 11:56:54 <TimHwang__> gah, sc1olist, was trying to stay incognito
2008-05-15 11:57:01 <davewiner> my head is spinning
2008-05-15 11:57:04 <sc1olist> You didn't have to out yourself, sir.
2008-05-15 11:57:16 <devoncopley> oof. at one point i thought we'd have some bullet points but it turned into moving circles and lines and bullets all over the page
2008-05-15 11:57:19 <alexleavitt> key point: what's NOT the overlap from ROFLCon in Berk10: not enough young people who will be the main demographic in the 'future of the internet'
2008-05-15 11:57:25 <devoncopley> not your typical powerpoint
2008-05-15 11:57:26 <sc1olist> Thankfully, TIA being run on us as we speak, so the powers that be already knew.
2008-05-15 11:57:29 <davewiner> he's asking jason calacanis's question
2008-05-15 11:57:34 <davewiner> why no ads jimbo?
2008-05-15 11:57:38 <xu_> sc1olist: thanks! sleeper cell makes us sound so badass
2008-05-15 11:57:50 <xu_> yeah, the demographic of b@10 is like ROFLCon + 20 years
2008-05-15 11:57:51 <davewiner> jimbo's head is spinning too?
2008-05-15 11:57:52 <sc1olist> @xu: Yeah, well, I'm nothing if not good PR for you guys. Wht?
2008-05-15 11:58:06 <sc1olist> Jimbo seems to have an unfortunate philosophy of collar-mixing.
2008-05-15 11:58:11 <treeshapiro> jimbo spins
2008-05-15 11:58:12 <davewiner> jimbo: I don't understand the question so I'll answer another one
2008-05-15 11:58:28 <moot__> jimbo: jimbo
2008-05-15 11:58:32 <davewiner> is docsearls here??
2008-05-15 11:58:32 <jessamyn> I don't think of wikipedians as primarily fun-seeking
2008-05-15 11:58:33 <ahoward_> double collars are very preppy, @sc1. think hahvahd
2008-05-15 11:58:34 <goodell> sc1olist: collar-mixing?
2008-05-15 11:58:35 <treeshapiro> like a record baby
2008-05-15 11:58:39 <davewiner> hey doc -- WAKE UP!
2008-05-15 11:58:46 <sc1olist> Popped chinese collar of a blazer, then the popped yellow polo. Major faux pas.
2008-05-15 11:58:57 <davewiner> :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
2008-05-15 11:59:11 <davewiner> business buzzword
2008-05-15 11:59:17 <jessamyn> jimbo: I find corwdsourcing offensive and annoying
2008-05-15 11:59:18 <sc1olist> @ahoward, no, I think Georgetown more.
2008-05-15 11:59:18 <goodell> "crowdsourcing"
2008-05-15 11:59:19 <xu_> jimbo finds the term "crowdsourcing" offensive?
2008-05-15 11:59:20 <treeshapiro> is doc wearing tie dye?
2008-05-15 11:59:20 <davewiner> he doesn't like crowdsourcing (I don't either)
2008-05-15 11:59:22 <xu_> oh i see
2008-05-15 11:59:29 <davewiner> it's an ugly word
2008-05-15 11:59:32 <pde_was_stolen> except Gracenote
2008-05-15 11:59:33 <treeshapiro> trick the public
2008-05-15 11:59:35 <devoncopley> gracenote knew exactly what they were doing
2008-05-15 11:59:39 <devoncopley> hah you beat me
2008-05-15 11:59:41 <sc1olist> It can be said with such wonderful pejorativeness though.
2008-05-15 11:59:42 <jessamyn> "they are missing something very fundamental about the business"
2008-05-15 12:00:04 <guan> "user generated content" -- i haven't actually heard that recently
2008-05-15 12:00:10 <davewiner> wiki bowling alley
2008-05-15 12:00:12 <pde_was_stolen> UGC
2008-05-15 12:00:17 <davewiner> you can use my ball anytime
2008-05-15 12:00:20 <treeshapiro> yeah lots of money in bowling
2008-05-15 12:00:22 <sc1olist> I want to bowl with Jimbo.
2008-05-15 12:00:30 <sc1olist> I bet he's really badass at it. Where's he from again? Kansas?
2008-05-15 12:00:35 <guan> bowl with jimbo and obama
2008-05-15 12:00:38 <davewiner> louisiana
2008-05-15 12:00:41 <moot__> jimbowling
2008-05-15 12:00:43 <treeshapiro> this bowling alley analogy is NICE!
2008-05-15 12:00:44 <sc1olist> Close enough. Major bowling state.
2008-05-15 12:00:44 <msifry> the community scores each frame
2008-05-15 12:00:46 * jwonderlich (n=chatzill@dhcp-0013978908-77-0b.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:00:48 <sc1olist> Jimbowling
2008-05-15 12:00:50 <sc1olist> win.
2008-05-15 12:01:00 <treeshapiro> i bet he's got some nice balls
2008-05-15 12:01:10 <davewiner> butt-sniffin at the dog park http://www.flickr.com/photos/scriptingnews/2493498806/
2008-05-15 12:01:41 <davewiner> Welcome to PuppyLand! http://www.flickr.com/photos/scriptingnews/2492848911/
2008-05-15 12:01:47 <ilteris_> benkler was surprised to hear about balls I guess :)
2008-05-15 12:01:55 <sc1olist> @davew: are those sfw?
2008-05-15 12:02:01 <Frank_Paynter> he's more into nice pins
2008-05-15 12:02:01 <davewiner> yes
2008-05-15 12:02:16 <sc1olist> OR are you just trying to get me to pull up some row-behind-me-scandalizing content?
2008-05-15 12:02:22 <sc1olist> I'd understand if you were.
2008-05-15 12:02:26 <davewiner> heh
2008-05-15 12:02:37 <davewiner> i could post some scandalous butt-sniffin pics
2008-05-15 12:02:40 <treeshapiro> and like the bowling shoe rentals are like the ads
2008-05-15 12:02:41 <davewiner> but these are work safe
2008-05-15 12:02:43 <jessamyn> I clicked them row behind me be damned
2008-05-15 12:02:50 <guan> as long as it's not goatse...
2008-05-15 12:03:05 <treeshapiro> ORLY?
2008-05-15 12:03:09 <ahoward_> yes. no goat-rolling please
2008-05-15 12:03:09 <sc1olist> Oh, I'm doing a break-out session on goatse.
2008-05-15 12:03:22 <sc1olist> long live the un-conference.
2008-05-15 12:03:25 <moot__> we can bring some roflcondoms
2008-05-15 12:03:29 <Frank_Paynter> jimbo doesn't get myspace
2008-05-15 12:03:29 <treeshapiro> charitable for whom?
2008-05-15 12:03:30 <moot__> it will be a par-tay
2008-05-15 12:03:40 <davewiner> i wish they'd open the window
2008-05-15 12:03:43 <treeshapiro> i go bowling
2008-05-15 12:03:48 <davewiner> someone is farting in the overflow room
2008-05-15 12:03:59 <Frank_Paynter> but you wear your own shoes
2008-05-15 12:04:01 <treeshapiro> church!!!!!?????
2008-05-15 12:04:10 * PHB (n=hallam@dhcp-0013978935-0f-2f.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:04:18 <treeshapiro> our lady of the bowling alley
2008-05-15 12:04:24 <Frank_Paynter> nice pins
2008-05-15 12:04:33 <jessamyn> church has some interesting mutual aid associations but it's a strange choice imo
2008-05-15 12:04:49 <treeshapiro> all hail the crying pin
2008-05-15 12:05:02 <sc1olist> I appreciate how "7 years ago" is considered truly agéd, ancient history in this conference.
2008-05-15 12:05:04 * marc10 has quit ("Computer goes to sleep!")
2008-05-15 12:05:16 <docsearls> sorry, I did nod off for a bit. been up since 4am, working on my Publius piece, which needs to be done this afternoon.
2008-05-15 12:05:18 * Deaner (n=Deaner@dhcp-0000019431-ea-c2.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:05:30 <treeshapiro> please tell us
2008-05-15 12:05:30 <docsearls> Sometimes "heads down" goes too far.
2008-05-15 12:05:36 <moot__> Hello Deaner, welcome to the chat.
2008-05-15 12:05:38 * moot__ welcomes.
2008-05-15 12:05:39 <fonchik> As if there were something wrong with being cliquish
2008-05-15 12:05:40 <treeshapiro> oh?
2008-05-15 12:05:41 <davewiner> President Bush suggested Thursday that Sen. Barack Obama and other Democrats are in favor of âappeasementâ of terrorists in the same way U.S. leaders appeased Nazis in the run-up to World War II.
2008-05-15 12:05:45 <Frank_Paynter> bumped forehead
2008-05-15 12:05:48 * ilteris_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
2008-05-15 12:05:57 <treeshapiro> wiki funded bridge jumpers
2008-05-15 12:06:00 <sc1olist> @davewiner nothing new. That's been the R line for years.
2008-05-15 12:06:06 * moot__ is now known as WelcomeBot
2008-05-15 12:06:16 <sc1olist> It does demonstrate a wonderful desperation on their part though.
2008-05-15 12:06:23 <treeshapiro> like bowling teams
2008-05-15 12:06:25 * WelcomeBot is now known as _WelcomeBot_
2008-05-15 12:06:32 <sc1olist> It's a very evocative intellectual tic.
2008-05-15 12:06:34 * ilteris_ (n=ilteris@216.223.194.250) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:06:35 <sc1olist> moot___ wtf are you up to?
2008-05-15 12:06:36 <davewiner> I love the headline of this article. http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/President_Bush_committed_treason_today.html
2008-05-15 12:06:43 * EricaG waves at Frank_Paynter are you here in person?
2008-05-15 12:06:59 <Frank_Paynter> nope, laptop on the boat
2008-05-15 12:07:02 <docsearls> may we speak of "appeasement" in respect to those who wish to stuff the Internet genie insie the pre-1984 bottle?
2008-05-15 12:07:13 <PHB> @davewiner so will Bush dennounce the GOP presidential candidate who has for years supported the terrorist organization that tried to murder my own family? I think not.
2008-05-15 12:07:14 <docsearls> great headline
2008-05-15 12:07:24 <msifry> thanks for that breaking news, davewiner
2008-05-15 12:07:26 * jordan_p_ (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000036995-17-ec.client.student.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:07:28 * jordan_p_ is now known as jordan_p
2008-05-15 12:07:32 <treeshapiro> News Alert: California Supreme Court Overturns Gay Marriage Ban
2008-05-15 12:07:44 <docsearls> back to writing longform....
2008-05-15 12:08:01 <sc1olist> later doc
2008-05-15 12:08:13 <_WelcomeBot_> hooary hopefully virginia's is next to go
2008-05-15 12:08:23 <treeshapiro> "The ruling paves the way for California to become the second
2008-05-15 12:08:24 <treeshapiro> state where gay men and lesbians can marry." laughing.
2008-05-15 12:09:14 * amar (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000072912-91-1a.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:09:27 <PHB> "Sen. Kerry blasts President Bush's "shameless" act of launching a domestic political attack in front of a foreign parliament."
2008-05-15 12:09:41 <sc1olist> Biden called it, quote, "total bullshit"
2008-05-15 12:09:57 <sc1olist> Hate to bring this back, but that last point was a good one,
2008-05-15 12:10:10 <davewiner> Wales was caught editing his own bio on Wikipedia
2008-05-15 12:10:11 * tchatter (n=chatzill@140.247.252.19) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:10:13 <jessamyn> the good faith one?
2008-05-15 12:10:14 * chrisc_ (n=chatzill@140.247.241.82) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:10:31 <goodell> Aw. I bet that he is the most knowledgable expert on Jimmy Wales
2008-05-15 12:10:37 <sc1olist> No the "don't have to be an expert to contribute" one. Not new, but powerful.
2008-05-15 12:10:42 <jessamyn> I've edited my own bio, it happens
2008-05-15 12:12:13 <wseltzer> good to hear that the number of lawsuits against wikipedia is very small
2008-05-15 12:12:16 * Corinna_ (n=chatzill@c-76-24-18-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:12:35 <daithi> Anyone familiar with the Italian case that was just mentioned?
2008-05-15 12:12:51 <goodell> We are the community, right?
2008-05-15 12:13:02 <jessamyn> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/01/1426201&from=rss
2008-05-15 12:13:12 <sc1olist> Thanks, jess
2008-05-15 12:13:17 <PHB> OK so what when someone puts libellous information into their own article under a false name so that they can sue? MIT has defended a case of that type already
2008-05-15 12:13:17 <daithi> great thanks
2008-05-15 12:13:27 <Frank_Paynter> rotten webcast audio is best argument for QoS
2008-05-15 12:13:33 <PHB> [not on Wikipedia, USENET]
2008-05-15 12:13:37 <jessamyn> librarians represent! you're welcome.
2008-05-15 12:14:46 <jessamyn> would *love* to know how many people in this room [either room] have Wikipedia pages about them....
2008-05-15 12:15:17 <davidjoho> yes, and how many of us have the shame of stubs?
2008-05-15 12:15:25 <wseltzer> Is this his argument against putting everything into wikipedia: if it's just a niche, there might not be critical mass to NPV it
2008-05-15 12:15:37 <sc1olist> @jess I've personally looked up about 8 in this room already -- folks asking ?s etc.
2008-05-15 12:15:44 <davidjoho> T-shirt idea: "Look me up in Wikipedia" on the front. "I'm a stub" on the back.
2008-05-15 12:15:52 <wseltzer> jessamyn: sounds like a job for perlscripts!
2008-05-15 12:16:13 <sc1olist> @davidjo: awesome.
2008-05-15 12:16:13 <davidjoho> doesn't jimbo tend toward the inclusionist side in the perpetual wikipedia debate?
2008-05-15 12:16:14 <jessamyn> can someone get right on that?
2008-05-15 12:16:27 <sc1olist> Doing it as we speak
2008-05-15 12:16:29 <sc1olist> give me 5 mins
2008-05-15 12:16:29 <msifry> davidjoho this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Weinberger doesn't look like a stub
2008-05-15 12:16:44 <davidjoho> I've been promoted!
2008-05-15 12:16:50 <jessamyn> davidjoho, do you have a better photo? I'll add it if you email it to me.
2008-05-15 12:17:03 <msifry> i'm impressed to learn that you are a "professional speaker"
2008-05-15 12:17:18 <guan> star wars kid for governor!
2008-05-15 12:17:26 <davidjoho> Ego rising. Rising. Narcissism alert: http://www.hyperorg.com/photos.html
2008-05-15 12:17:43 <daithi> The requested URL /photos.html was not found on this server.
2008-05-15 12:18:03 <davidjoho> Broken url. Ego tumbles. Black mood looms.
2008-05-15 12:18:15 <davidjoho> http://www.hyperorg.com/speaker/photos.html
2008-05-15 12:18:17 <daithi> LOL.
2008-05-15 12:18:45 <jessamyn> @davidjoho if these are free-licensed, I'll replace what's there.
2008-05-15 12:18:47 <davidjoho> yes, msifry, and as you can tell from my comments on this very forum, i charge by the word.
2008-05-15 12:18:58 <daithi> like all good lawyers
2008-05-15 12:18:59 <TimHwang__> http://www.flickr.com/photos/veeliam/211439627/
2008-05-15 12:19:02 * treeshapiro_ (n=chatzill@77.201.85.75) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:19:02 <davidjoho> yes, they're free licensed. At least they are now that you mention it.
2008-05-15 12:19:25 <davidjoho> Also, can you improve my biceps? Thanks.
2008-05-15 12:20:01 <ilteris_> lol
2008-05-15 12:20:51 * fetale (n=fetale@dhcp-0000116219-5b-03.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:21:00 * xu_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
2008-05-15 12:21:05 * fetale is now known as beex
2008-05-15 12:21:14 * xu__ (n=xu@dhcp-0000071367-e7-d4.client.student.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:21:45 <Frank_Paynter> a few years ago esthr tried to charge me a dime for an elevator ride
2008-05-15 12:21:48 <EricaG> ah Livejournal.
2008-05-15 12:21:48 * jeckman (n=jeckman@dhcp-0013973125-ae-3c.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:21:53 * zamiang (n=bmoore@68.236.98.2) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:22:02 <dwitzel> Frank, did you pay?
2008-05-15 12:22:18 <Frank_Paynter> no... but th efee for service model was intriguing
2008-05-15 12:22:20 <davidjoho> esther's brain: http://flickr.com/photos/edyson/2493849930/
2008-05-15 12:22:50 <msifry> that new book "Predictable Irrationality" has a whole section on how people's behavior changes once you bring money into the euation
2008-05-15 12:22:53 <msifry> equation
2008-05-15 12:22:58 <EricaG> that's an awesome story
2008-05-15 12:23:11 <guan> davidjoho: http://senduit.com/c2b0e8
2008-05-15 12:23:16 <dwitzel> if she asked for 5 cents the next time, would you eventually stop riding elevators?
2008-05-15 12:23:27 <msifry> oops, Predictably Irrational: http://web.mit.edu/ariely/www/MIT/
2008-05-15 12:23:39 <Frank_Paynter> well, I only had a nickel then so I had to get off at before my floor
2008-05-15 12:23:39 <msifry> i need caffeine
2008-05-15 12:23:54 <jake> hi Tree Shapiro I'm Jake Shapiro but wish I was something more like Tree
2008-05-15 12:24:00 <wseltzer> Thanks msifry
2008-05-15 12:24:00 <dwitzel> charlie on the MBTA
2008-05-15 12:24:06 <treeshapiro_> were you buffaloed?
2008-05-15 12:24:25 <Frank_Paynter> more a jeffersonian thing
2008-05-15 12:24:28 <devoncopley> there's a great study about a day care center: when they instituted a late fee for picking up your kids late, lateness actually *increased* ... the social stigma was more powerful than the monetary penalty; the penalty was like an indulgence and people gladly paid to sin
2008-05-15 12:24:52 <TimHwang__> devoncopley
2008-05-15 12:24:55 <treeshapiro_> is that jp?
2008-05-15 12:24:57 <TimHwang__> that's awesome -- do you have a link?
2008-05-15 12:24:58 <Frank_Paynter> good story devon
2008-05-15 12:25:17 <devoncopley> looking
2008-05-15 12:25:20 <msifry> if my mother inlaw brings a potroast to my seder, and afterwards I offer to pay her, it kinda ruins the social contract
2008-05-15 12:25:27 <davidjoho> Wealth of Networks has good stuff on the effect of the introduction of $
2008-05-15 12:25:31 <daithi> devon, I think it's in freakonomics
2008-05-15 12:25:44 * hec has quit ("leaving")
2008-05-15 12:25:52 <devoncopley> http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:KuTWEOCng04J:www.rady.ucsd.edu/faculty/directory/gneezy/docs/fine.pdf+day+care+late+fee+study+haifa&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a
2008-05-15 12:26:08 <msifry> devon, that's also discussed in Predictably Irrational
2008-05-15 12:26:17 <davidjoho> guan, the senduit has punked out :(
2008-05-15 12:26:17 <devoncopley> http://www.rady.ucsd.edu/faculty/directory/gneezy/docs/fine.pdf
2008-05-15 12:26:18 <wseltzer> YB: ease of undoing damage creates the ability to take risks, extend trust
2008-05-15 12:26:26 * treeshapiro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
2008-05-15 12:26:53 <guan> davidjoho: mnm, http://unicast.org/download/joho.jpg
2008-05-15 12:27:15 <davidjoho> guan, how on earth did you guess? That is eerie!
2008-05-15 12:27:17 <daithi> oi!
2008-05-15 12:27:25 <daithi> i'll scare the people behind me...
2008-05-15 12:27:31 <guan> nsfw?
2008-05-15 12:27:32 <daithi> i mean, make them jealous
2008-05-15 12:27:33 <daithi> whatever
2008-05-15 12:27:40 * cmaclay (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000101413-98-34.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:28:39 <ahoward_> does anyone think it's appropriate to ask Jimmy about pedophilia, given recent news about staff & content staying up?
2008-05-15 12:28:54 <ahoward_> not him, per se -- just about openness and standards for included info
2008-05-15 12:28:57 * geeta (n=chatzill@dhcp-0014014353-a0-e3.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:29:24 <wseltzer> Top-rated question in the qtool: "Why are you wearing yellow?"
2008-05-15 12:29:42 <treeshapiro_> hillary yellow
2008-05-15 12:29:53 * how2 (n=howardg@68.236.98.2) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:29:55 <beex> canary yellow
2008-05-15 12:29:55 <treeshapiro_> peni
2008-05-15 12:29:59 <dwitzel> isn't that peni
2008-05-15 12:30:05 <daithi> After that 'relax, it's Wikipedia' answer : "they call him mellow yellow, quite rightly" (add to the playlist)
2008-05-15 12:30:12 * _WelcomeBot_ has quit (Connection timed out)
2008-05-15 12:30:14 <dwitzel> donovan!
2008-05-15 12:30:25 <davidjoho> what exactly, then, would be one less than one-too-many giant penises?
2008-05-15 12:30:28 <treeshapiro_> quite right ahhhh
2008-05-15 12:30:47 <wseltzer> davidjoho: zero?
2008-05-15 12:30:50 <ilteris_> first time I am watching benkler and he kind of dissapointed me I don't know why.
2008-05-15 12:30:51 <jessamyn> E lec tri cal BANANA
2008-05-15 12:30:54 <treeshapiro_> he came in through the bathroom window
2008-05-15 12:31:00 <guan> well, "Giant penis" might be the featured article one day
2008-05-15 12:31:12 <treeshapiro_> first there was a mountain
2008-05-15 12:31:17 <ahoward_> I believe the Dodge Viper has been on the front page...
2008-05-15 12:31:25 <how2> jimbo is a bully he calls people directly and threatens them if he feels you are not working in his interest
2008-05-15 12:31:40 <treeshapiro_> cons
2008-05-15 12:31:44 <geeta> hey! i'm geeta. i just joined the irc channel. i know some of you, but not all
2008-05-15 12:31:56 <xu__> hi geeta, it's christina from c4fcm
2008-05-15 12:31:58 <sc1olist> Hey geeta
2008-05-15 12:32:00 <geeta> hey christina
2008-05-15 12:32:05 <xu__> are you here?
2008-05-15 12:32:08 <geeta> yup!
2008-05-15 12:32:12 <xu__> cool!
2008-05-15 12:32:14 <sc1olist> @how2 source?
2008-05-15 12:32:18 <beex> hey geeta, I see you in the overflow
2008-05-15 12:32:30 <how2> user and someone he has called and bullied
2008-05-15 12:32:42 <TimHwang__> also wickerpedia
2008-05-15 12:32:51 <how2> but i am not the only one this has happened to
2008-05-15 12:32:56 <sc1olist> @how2 Hrm, what would actually rile him enough for that? As in, someone editing his personal page, or someone flaming?
2008-05-15 12:32:58 <xu__> also encyclopedia dramatica = not good-natured AT ALL =(
2008-05-15 12:33:25 <guan> when conservapedia first appeared, i thought it was satire
2008-05-15 12:33:28 <TimHwang__> http://www.wickerpedia.org/
2008-05-15 12:33:31 <how2> not at all the wiki community made all the correct behaviors he called on his own very uncool
2008-05-15 12:33:40 <daithi> http://www.sickipedia.org - the sick jokes wiki
2008-05-15 12:33:46 <how2> but thanks for assuming the worst of me
2008-05-15 12:33:55 <treeshapiro_> you're funny
2008-05-15 12:34:18 <davidjoho> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Main_Page
2008-05-15 12:34:25 <fonchik> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=berkman&go=Go
2008-05-15 12:34:29 <ahoward_> funny -- when he mentioned giant phalluses, I instantly thought of this: http://www.dickipedia.org/ (SFW)
2008-05-15 12:34:29 <how2> it was very sad for me as a wiki fan and user
2008-05-15 12:34:32 <sc1olist> @how2 no, not at all, just curious.
2008-05-15 12:34:37 <fonchik> We must write the Berkman page before the end of the conference!
2008-05-15 12:34:39 <how2> but hey we lost eliot spitzer this year also
2008-05-15 12:34:51 <sc1olist> @how2: ahahaha
2008-05-15 12:35:06 <jessamyn> I thought of Second Life re: giant dicks
2008-05-15 12:35:26 * beth_ has quit (Connection timed out)
2008-05-15 12:35:31 <sc1olist> We didn't lose him. We gained Ashley Alexandra Dupré
2008-05-15 12:36:07 <how2> cant wait for her album to drop
2008-05-15 12:36:35 <EricaG> The Berkman wikipedia page could use updating - I think us Berkfolk hold off cos we don't want to risk npov, but it'd be awesome if folks here wanted to add stuff to it :D.
2008-05-15 12:36:44 <treeshapiro_> or the bowling video
2008-05-15 12:36:52 * hec (n=cjh@thundercougarfalconbird.et-test.psu.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:36:59 <fonchik> Ethan Zuckerman speaking
2008-05-15 12:37:10 <jessamyn> Ethan Zuckerman asks about the participation gap
2008-05-15 12:37:17 <treeshapiro_> shoes?
2008-05-15 12:37:36 <fonchik> I think we exclude them Not involuntarily at all
2008-05-15 12:37:36 <jessamyn> http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/
2008-05-15 12:37:58 <sc1olist> @fonchik it's a structural deficiency, c'mon.
2008-05-15 12:38:48 * beth_ (n=chatzill@dhcp-0003718859-0b-04.client.student.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 12:39:07 <how2> this cat is very interesting on these issues http://www.collectivate.net/
2008-05-15 12:39:10 <how2> trebor
2008-05-15 12:40:01 * hec has quit (Remote closed the connection)
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2008-05-15 12:40:14 <davidjoho> they really need to take a question from the question tool.
2008-05-15 12:40:16 * treeshapiro__ (n=chatzill@77.198.26.232) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 12:41:17 <wseltzer> anyone voting on interesting qs at http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/questions/list.php ?
2008-05-15 12:41:17 <xu__> ugh, the question tool is kind of frustrating me
2008-05-15 12:41:36 <msifry> the discussion on the question tool is pretty interesting, even if none of the questions get asked!
2008-05-15 12:41:37 <xu__> the character limits are making people make overly-simplistic arguments
2008-05-15 12:41:39 <xu__> (myself included)
2008-05-15 12:41:52 <xu__> but yes, i love the discussion feature
2008-05-15 12:41:53 <sc1olist> @xu__ what're you looking to ask?
2008-05-15 12:42:15 * cjh (n=cjh@thundercougarfalconbird.et-test.psu.edu) has joined #berkman
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2008-05-15 12:42:37 <guan> "Wikipedia relies upon ISPs to enforce a backchannel for complaints about abuse." - what does that mean?
2008-05-15 12:43:58 <treeshapiro> look at gawker : they're paid
2008-05-15 12:44:18 <goodell> guan: if someone edits a page in a manner that wikipedia admins dislike,
2008-05-15 12:44:44 <goodell> then the wikipedia admins either complain to the ISP about the abuse, or they block the IP address (range), or both.
2008-05-15 12:45:31 <goodell> guan: does this make sense?
2008-05-15 12:45:39 <jwonderlich> is there an alternate parallel to 'long tail' besides "fat head"?
2008-05-15 12:45:42 <fonchik> who's speaking?
2008-05-15 12:45:47 <daithi> David Reed.
2008-05-15 12:45:52 <fonchik> thanks!
2008-05-15 12:46:13 <guan> goodell: yes. is this backchannel very important to wikipedia as a means of controlling abuse?
2008-05-15 12:46:34 <goodell> guan: Without it, Wikipedia would be in trouble.
2008-05-15 12:46:46 <goodell> guan: at least, I think that that is what Jimmy Wales would say.
2008-05-15 12:47:00 <daithi> WWJWD
2008-05-15 12:47:02 <davidjoho> do you need the ISP to block an IP address??
2008-05-15 12:47:04 <devoncopley> boy, the questioners are awfully chummy ... i mean it's great that all these accomplished and relevant people are here but it's seeming like the same half-dozen people talking
2008-05-15 12:47:07 <jessamyn> http://www.media.mit.edu/people/bio_dpreed.html
2008-05-15 12:47:32 <guan> davidjoho: i think the questioner is implying that blocking an IP address is itself a violation of net neutrality
2008-05-15 12:47:35 <sc1olist> @devon totally agreed.
2008-05-15 12:47:40 <devoncopley> i guess if we'd use the QUESTION TOOL that might address this
2008-05-15 12:47:41 <goodell> davidjoho: no -- what guan said
2008-05-15 12:47:47 <devoncopley> was kind of the point, no?
2008-05-15 12:47:48 <ahoward_> @guan I'd like to see him answer the question of IP blocking -- how often it happens, where, when. wish they'd use the question tool...
2008-05-15 12:47:52 <goodell> davidjoho: also, we are relying upon the user to be locked into the ISP
2008-05-15 12:47:57 * Deaner has quit ()
2008-05-15 12:48:03 <ahoward_> or at least put the question tool on the big screen
2008-05-15 12:48:03 <goodell> (even for blocking)
2008-05-15 12:48:06 <davidjoho> so, if i auto-move spam into my junk folder, does that violate net neutrality?
2008-05-15 12:48:10 <davidjoho> (A: No.)
2008-05-15 12:48:44 <davidjoho> Net neutrality, as I understand it, has to do with letting the carriers decide which packets get through and how quickly they get through.
2008-05-15 12:49:05 <davidjoho> Under that def, Wikipedia blocking an IP is totally not a violation of NN.
2008-05-15 12:49:13 <jessamyn> questiontoolquestiontoolquestiontool
2008-05-15 12:49:15 <guan> devoncopley: the talk about a "backchannel" confused me
2008-05-15 12:49:33 <wseltzer> TIMETIMETIME, we keep getting told
2008-05-15 12:49:34 <jessamyn> craigslist makes 80 mil a year, is what is important about CL
2008-05-15 12:50:02 <goodell> davidjoho: if we define network neutrality narrowly, then yes, I agree.
2008-05-15 12:50:05 <davidjoho> @wendy, but they're shooting the question tool in the foot. Why put it up if they're not going to take questions?
2008-05-15 12:50:11 <wseltzer> beats me
2008-05-15 12:50:12 <how2> http://www.savetheinternet.com/ on net neutrality
2008-05-15 12:50:20 <davidjoho> @goodell, what alternate def would you propose
2008-05-15 12:50:32 <jessamyn> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/technology/12craig.html
2008-05-15 12:50:34 <daithi> @david - agreed; wikipedia blocking might be a speech/censorship/participation issue and that's part of an important debate, but the NN debate can't accommodate every tech-related speech-related issue. IMHO.
2008-05-15 12:50:36 <goodell> davidjoho: however, there is still something problematic about using network location as a proxy for identity or as a means of gleaning information about users.
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2008-05-15 12:51:03 <how2> new media use is really hard for people without practice more virtual interaction coming soon we hope
2008-05-15 12:51:08 <davidjoho> sure, @goodell, but when you allow anonymous editing, you have little choice if you also want to block anonymous abusers.
2008-05-15 12:51:23 <goodell> (regardless of how we categorize it in the taxonomy -- personally, I think that it is part of network neutrality in the sense that the network implicitly determines the decision.)
2008-05-15 12:51:42 <daithi> correction to self- i mean wikipedia doing the blocking, not wikipedia being blocked, of course.
2008-05-15 12:51:48 <davidjoho> and, AFAIK, @goodell, wikipedia doesn't use your ip to get more info about you. They just block it, if you're an abuser. Plus, the blocks are almost always temporary
2008-05-15 12:52:09 <ahoward_> Net neutrality is the principle that data packets on the Internet should be moved impartially, without regard to content, destination or source. (from our def) -- IP blocking is not about that at all.
2008-05-15 12:52:25 <guan> i think i can personally block ip adresses in my usenet client without violating nn. in what sense is wikipedia the "network"?
2008-05-15 12:52:42 <how2> thats right the ip blocking is a form of behavior modification
2008-05-15 12:52:48 <how2> in this case
2008-05-15 12:52:50 <davidjoho> @ahoward +1
2008-05-15 12:53:04 <jessamyn> yeah net neutrality is all about the routers
2008-05-15 12:53:11 <jessamyn> non-human
2008-05-15 12:53:17 <goodell> davidjoho: I agree that there is a practical consideration here, but ultimately we are relying upon an emergent property of the network as a way of enforcing policy
2008-05-15 12:53:17 <wseltzer> then we need to talk about "freedom of communication"
2008-05-15 12:53:34 <daithi> yes, wendy :)
2008-05-15 12:53:49 <goodell> ahoward_: OK, then we should categorize this differently
2008-05-15 12:53:50 <davidjoho> and, from my pov, the question about NN is about whether the carriers will be given the power to decide whose packets are more important than others.
2008-05-15 12:53:51 <how2> who are the enforcers are the questions is it the community or the capital concerns
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2008-05-15 12:54:03 <daithi> coffee!
2008-05-15 12:54:05 <davidjoho> I don't get that, @goodell. What emergent property?
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2008-05-15 12:54:07 <daithi> and the music is back
2008-05-15 12:54:20 <how2> thanks all
2008-05-15 12:54:25 <ahoward_> coffee time -- see y'all in meatspace
2008-05-15 12:54:38 <davidjoho> Ah, coffee time. See you in the flesh?
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2008-05-15 12:54:54 <guan> later, guys, i need to go
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2008-05-15 13:17:28 <wseltzer> back, with Nesson
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2008-05-15 13:18:11 <goodell> davidjoho: I meant the property that in general, most users tend to have a unique IP address that can be traced back to them uniquely.
2008-05-15 13:18:34 <sc1olist> What a ledge
2008-05-15 13:18:39 <sc1olist> he even rhymes in his introductions
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2008-05-15 13:18:44 <davidjoho> first poker reference within three sentences. Go, Eon!
2008-05-15 13:18:45 <msifry> and we're back
2008-05-15 13:18:54 <docsearls> What about people, Charlie?
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2008-05-15 13:19:35 <ThomasKriese> a rather shatner-esque cadence
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2008-05-15 13:20:06 <sc1olist> @Thomas : Dead-on
2008-05-15 13:20:07 <daithi> $10 for someone who gets him to do Common People.
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2008-05-15 13:23:27 <xu_> lok!
2008-05-15 13:23:34 <xu_> why aren't you here? all the other ONI interns 2005 are
2008-05-15 13:23:35 <jessamyn> /msg NickServ IDENTIFY daspaz
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2008-05-15 13:24:03 <ltsui> aw :( say hi to everyone for me
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2008-05-15 13:25:46 <msifry> They must put sherry in the drinking water here at Harvard...all these Harvard guys talk slowlllly...
2008-05-15 13:26:08 <wseltzer> "eon has some questions"
2008-05-15 13:26:17 <ltsui> lol
2008-05-15 13:26:32 <xu_> ltsui: charlie is wearing an "i'm with eon" shirt
2008-05-15 13:26:33 <daithi> For those of you who aren't watching, the Eon t-shirt we discussed earlier..Charlie/Eon is wearing one
2008-05-15 13:26:35 <xu_> it's extra trippy
2008-05-15 13:26:56 <ltsui> hahahaha thats awesome
2008-05-15 13:27:06 <Chilmark> its extra weird
2008-05-15 13:27:41 <davidjoho> what, he shouldn't be with eon? That would be REALLY weird.
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2008-05-15 13:29:17 <xu_> davidjoho: it'd be kind of cool if there was a dr. jekyll/mr. hyde thing going
2008-05-15 13:29:28 <Chilmark> I'm new here and thus not really in the "know"
2008-05-15 13:29:34 <Chilmark> obviously an inside joke
2008-05-15 13:29:48 <alexleavitt> random question: possible to get one of the berkman 10 jackets?
2008-05-15 13:30:16 <daithi> alex, two people watching on webcast just IMed me to ask that too! They must be making some impact...
2008-05-15 13:30:36 <alexleavitt> I wanted one as soon as I saw it at Wednesday's Civic Engagement session
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2008-05-15 13:30:41 <xu_> Chilmark: Charles Nesson, founder of the Berkman Center, has an alter ego named eon
2008-05-15 13:30:45 <xu_> eon is the dean of cyberspace
2008-05-15 13:30:52 <msifry> I feel this offers an opportunity to talk...too
2008-05-15 13:31:00 <jessamyn> total land grab - dean of cyberspace
2008-05-15 13:31:15 <sc1olist> @jess like that guy who bought pizza.com ;)
2008-05-15 13:31:16 <xu_> yeah
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2008-05-15 13:31:55 <msifry> in other news, pace Josh Marshall
2008-05-15 13:32:02 <msifry> We seem to have arrived at an equitable compromise: Sen. Clinton is staying in the nomination race while Sen. Obama drops out to move on to the general.
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2008-05-15 13:32:08 <sc1olist> QUote of the day: "You sit on a whole pile of...assets"
2008-05-15 13:32:13 <EricaG> alexleavitt I think there's only enough for Berkman fellows/faculty/staff but I could be wrong
2008-05-15 13:32:29 <EricaG> don't think anyone planned on selling 'em
2008-05-15 13:32:38 <alexleavitt> ah.... jacket fail.
2008-05-15 13:32:40 <jessamyn> copyright - another land grab
2008-05-15 13:32:42 <daithi> flog 'em on ebay :-P
2008-05-15 13:32:50 <alexleavitt> or offer cash on the spot tomorrow
2008-05-15 13:32:53 <jessamyn> I'd buy one; jacket.
2008-05-15 13:32:58 <dwitzel> has the question tool been abandoned?
2008-05-15 13:33:04 <sc1olist> Me too.
2008-05-15 13:33:05 <EricaG> maybe we should make another batch of 'em :)
2008-05-15 13:33:10 <alexleavitt> plzkthx
2008-05-15 13:33:10 <sc1olist> Oh well they politely cleared it for us...
2008-05-15 13:33:19 <EricaG> the question tool is getting cleared after every session
2008-05-15 13:33:22 <davidjoho> what is mike saying?
2008-05-15 13:33:35 <davidjoho> ah, here we go
2008-05-15 13:33:39 <dwitzel> i want Berkman at 20 so i can be ahead of my time
2008-05-15 13:33:53 <jessamyn> Berkman mine goes to 11
2008-05-15 13:33:58 <goodell> EricaG: the question, I think, is whether questions on the board will have consequence for what is going on in the front of the room.
2008-05-15 13:34:17 <jordan_p> media consumption
2008-05-15 13:34:25 <jessamyn> "and we have no money left over, none"
2008-05-15 13:34:32 <Chilmark> dean of cyberspace, well must have been good friends Gore, the founder
2008-05-15 13:34:32 <davidjoho> yes, icnentives are useful. Incentives that go to 70 yrs after you die don't produce any works that 30 yrs after your death wouldn't.
2008-05-15 13:34:39 <wseltzer> we've been trying to get qs into the mix from the tool.
2008-05-15 13:34:39 <daithi> Go on Charlie, pin him down - I couldn't make sense of that answer...
2008-05-15 13:34:48 <wseltzer> and have failed so far... but we'll keep trying!
2008-05-15 13:34:49 <EricaG> goodell Agreed entirely. I think the moderators are forgetting about it bc it's not as visible if you're not online & using it yourself
2008-05-15 13:35:28 <Chilmark> i'll take a jacket - hmm maybe threadless?
2008-05-15 13:35:33 <goodell> EricaG: right, though we could bring up the questions during the question period at the end of the session.
2008-05-15 13:35:45 <jessamyn> "this systemhas issues with how it works *in this world* yes..." nice qualifier
2008-05-15 13:36:08 <wseltzer> evading the question... "Would you design copyright today, as it currently exists?"
2008-05-15 13:36:15 <jessamyn> is he just saying the library model is broken???
2008-05-15 13:36:22 <pde_was_stolen> Wow that's so sneaky
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2008-05-15 13:36:30 <jordan_p> everyone should read http://truprop.com which turns permanent-right-to-use-licenses into actual property.
2008-05-15 13:36:35 <wseltzer> eon wasn't asking about settled expectations
2008-05-15 13:36:36 <jessamyn> OMGOMGOMG
2008-05-15 13:36:36 <pde_was_stolen> ask a Movie lawyer about the scholarly open access problem
2008-05-15 13:36:41 <wseltzer> hope he'll ask again
2008-05-15 13:36:43 <davidjoho> no one (?) is saying there should be NO copyright.
2008-05-15 13:36:49 <pde_was_stolen> which is about works the authors never controlled
2008-05-15 13:36:57 <guan> davidjoho: the pirate bay people?
2008-05-15 13:37:05 <jordan_p> once you sell a book to everyone in the world, you should have made enough money.
2008-05-15 13:37:07 <daithi> Are Viacom opposed to libraries or in favour of them?
2008-05-15 13:37:22 <jessamyn> they seem to think they are for suckers, is what I am hearing....
2008-05-15 13:37:24 <pde_was_stolen> (because they had to publish in/with whatever prestigious journal/publisher existed in 19xx)
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2008-05-15 13:37:56 <pde_was_stolen> daithi: firmly opposed
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2008-05-15 13:38:14 <guan> registration for reboot10 is now open, for those who will be in denmark in late june
2008-05-15 13:38:17 <ahoward_> great. Twitter appears to be down again. shocker.
2008-05-15 13:38:27 <pde_was_stolen> most of the pirate folk only advocate abolishing copyright for non-commercial use
2008-05-15 13:39:19 <EricaG> site licenses are meaningless if we could have had fair use first, though (not saying everything on YouTube necessarily is fair use, but a lot is and should not require a site license)
2008-05-15 13:39:19 <ltsui> @ahoward twitter is down here as well
2008-05-15 13:39:24 <devoncopley> while also abolishing any viable commercial models?
2008-05-15 13:39:28 <how2> http://www.commonhouse.net/wiki/drm/FrontPage
2008-05-15 13:39:36 <fonchik> Lokman, are you here in CAmbridge?
2008-05-15 13:39:50 <davidjoho> The notion that creators ought to control the distrubition of their stuff as a natural right is quite new. The Constitution has a different pov.
2008-05-15 13:39:53 <msifry> registration for PdF 2008 is also open, if you'll be in NYC in late June: http://pdf2008.confabb.com
2008-05-15 13:40:12 <ltsui> @fonchik couldn't come unfortunately :(
2008-05-15 13:41:10 <jordan_p> university is only giving away for free what they never firgured out how to control, IMO.
2008-05-15 13:41:18 <wseltzer> "so here's some facts that might be true"
2008-05-15 13:41:18 <xu_> "here are some facts that might be true"
2008-05-15 13:41:22 <pde_was_stolen> devoncopley: no, just the biggest ones
2008-05-15 13:41:26 <wseltzer> :-P
2008-05-15 13:41:37 <devoncopley> @pde: i.e., the ones which cover bandwidth costs
2008-05-15 13:41:51 <goodell> how2: awesome, thanks for the link :)
2008-05-15 13:41:53 <Frank_Paynter> price declined but what about net cost?
2008-05-15 13:42:00 <how2> http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm
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2008-05-15 13:42:33 <how2> that is an old cory link but he is always on and was 4yrs ago on this subject really
2008-05-15 13:42:35 <bob___> Wow there's a lot of people on here
2008-05-15 13:42:41 <sc1olist> Is Hundt good or evil? Does anyone know the history here?
2008-05-15 13:42:44 <pde_was_stolen> devoncopley: what bandwidth costs? ;)
2008-05-15 13:42:59 <pde_was_stolen> More seriously...
2008-05-15 13:43:10 <jessamyn> twitter back.
2008-05-15 13:43:11 <jordan_p> people keep confusing the information, with the license to use it.
2008-05-15 13:43:14 <jessamyn> IPR is...?
2008-05-15 13:43:15 <goodell> What is IPR?
2008-05-15 13:43:18 <xu_> "user generated content is another word for no ipr"
2008-05-15 13:43:21 <daithi> "UGC is another word for no IPR"???????????
2008-05-15 13:43:21 <xu_> = intellectual property rights?
2008-05-15 13:43:21 <goodell> intellectual property rights?
2008-05-15 13:43:22 <wseltzer> "User-generated content is another word for no IPR"??
2008-05-15 13:43:27 <ltsui> intellectual property rights
2008-05-15 13:43:28 <daithi> snap
2008-05-15 13:43:28 <guan> buzzword overload
2008-05-15 13:43:29 <xu_> that was TERRIBLE.
2008-05-15 13:43:49 <goodell> Since when did user-generated content mean no IPR?
2008-05-15 13:43:50 <wseltzer> we have to stop finding the same quotes salient (a word that hasn't yet made it into this panel)
2008-05-15 13:44:00 <goodell> (I mean, I do not understand the argument.)
2008-05-15 13:44:01 <pde_was_stolen> devoncopley: it's an interesting theoretical question how well one can do with rights against commercial use but not rights against non-commercial use
2008-05-15 13:44:01 <daithi> wendy, it's the wisdom of the crowd.
2008-05-15 13:44:05 <wseltzer> it's nonsens
2008-05-15 13:44:06 <wseltzer> e
2008-05-15 13:44:10 <jessamyn> people on metafilter have IPR to their generated content, wtf
2008-05-15 13:44:14 <jordan_p> livejournal owns all you write, eg
2008-05-15 13:44:15 <jessamyn> lots of people do
2008-05-15 13:44:16 <pde_was_stolen> you still have the street performer protocol
2008-05-15 13:44:18 <pde_was_stolen> and advertising
2008-05-15 13:44:21 <daithi> i mean we're the wise ones, of course
2008-05-15 13:44:26 <pde_was_stolen> and merchandising
2008-05-15 13:44:37 <fonchik> hardly at all distributed? what is he talking about? It reaches millions and millons
2008-05-15 13:44:58 <jessamyn> "doesn't know how to deliver it to its own people...."
2008-05-15 13:45:04 <pde_was_stolen> it may or may not be a good alternative world, but it's the one the pirate folk advocate
2008-05-15 13:45:05 <jessamyn> that's really sketch sounding....
2008-05-15 13:45:05 <xu_> man that was patronizing
2008-05-15 13:45:15 <sc1olist> Jah, lots of manhandling happening here
2008-05-15 13:45:21 <joshuakauffman> fundamentally wrong with the system because 30 million people see it?
2008-05-15 13:45:21 <xu_> WTFFFFF
2008-05-15 13:45:29 <guan> "if we all had spaceships"
2008-05-15 13:45:35 <jessamyn> to be fair, we knew this panel would go this way
2008-05-15 13:45:43 <xu_> this is a shit. show.
2008-05-15 13:45:43 <ahoward_> @wseltzer good point about quotes -- can't help noticing that tweets kept matching up
2008-05-15 13:45:45 <ahoward_> heh
2008-05-15 13:45:55 <ahoward_> thought we just finished the wikiality session
2008-05-15 13:45:57 <daithi> btw, whoever asked about Reed Hundt's background - he has a very interesting book, "you say you want a revolution" - worth reading if you're interested in the 1996 communciations act history
2008-05-15 13:46:00 <jordan_p> truprop.com
2008-05-15 13:46:10 <wseltzer> anyone who wants to send an audience comment, we're really trying to lob them in
2008-05-15 13:46:11 <bob___> hrm fcc talk
2008-05-15 13:46:19 <devoncopley> @pde yes that's the point: copyright policy should encourage good alternative worlds
2008-05-15 13:46:21 <bob___> spectrum can't be owned
2008-05-15 13:46:22 <xu_> reed hundt is the guy who's takling now?
2008-05-15 13:46:25 <sc1olist> No
2008-05-15 13:46:30 <wseltzer> no, that's Viacom
2008-05-15 13:46:30 <sc1olist> He's the FCC guy on the far right
2008-05-15 13:46:32 <xu_> oh okay
2008-05-15 13:46:33 <sc1olist> This is the Viacom guy talking now
2008-05-15 13:46:33 <xu_> yeah
2008-05-15 13:46:43 * jordan_p is now known as truprop
2008-05-15 13:46:50 <xu_> this viacom guy is a sucker for punishment--he's at all the berkman events
2008-05-15 13:46:53 <daithi> LOL @ "on the far right"
2008-05-15 13:46:55 <sc1olist> Really? Awesome
2008-05-15 13:46:56 * truprop is now known as truprop-dot-com
2008-05-15 13:47:05 <bob___> 'far right' - a one dimensional person
2008-05-15 13:47:09 <jessamyn> "transaction costs" and libraries, oy
2008-05-15 13:47:13 <pde_was_stolen> I think he's suggesting that one could talk Reed Elsevier and Thomson into putting their portfolios on YouTube
2008-05-15 13:47:14 <xu_> 'far right ' - conservapedia.com
2008-05-15 13:47:32 <sc1olist> You're right: that was foolish, referring to physical reality.
2008-05-15 13:47:33 <xu_> AND THEN YOU TAKE IT DOWN
2008-05-15 13:47:37 <sc1olist> Oops, right.
2008-05-15 13:47:39 <sc1olist> *correct
2008-05-15 13:48:00 <xu_> down:copyright:Viacom International Inc. 346
2008-05-15 13:48:09 <truprop-dot-com> reed hundt's point which is Jaron's point that moores law doesn't accellerate software production.
2008-05-15 13:48:14 <jessamyn> LOCK UP KNOWLEDGE IN THE LIBRARY
2008-05-15 13:48:21 <xu_> oh SNAP
2008-05-15 13:48:23 <truprop-dot-com> doesnt seem to bear on movies and cable tv content
2008-05-15 13:48:24 <sc1olist> NAILED
2008-05-15 13:48:27 <davidjoho> if authors write books because they want to get ideas out, then why does copyright extend until 70 years after ttheyd ay?
2008-05-15 13:48:28 <goodell> ouch
2008-05-15 13:48:32 <joshuakauffman> You guys see from wikipedia: "Hundt is an advisor to Barack Obama on technology and communications issues."
2008-05-15 13:48:35 <how2> go eon
2008-05-15 13:48:39 <sc1olist> Viacom isn't paying his ass enough to be here.
2008-05-15 13:48:39 <xu_> charlie: "no no, you talked enough"
2008-05-15 13:48:40 <xu_> haha
2008-05-15 13:48:46 <sc1olist> win.
2008-05-15 13:48:52 <robotika> the librarian row back here is getting mad! watch out viacom!
2008-05-15 13:48:57 <xu_> uh oh
2008-05-15 13:49:01 <xu_> angry librarians are a mighty force
2008-05-15 13:49:03 <bob___> librarians of doom
2008-05-15 13:49:12 <davidjoho> copyright doesn't scale.
2008-05-15 13:49:19 <EricaG> i so want to see the lirbarian smackdown. make it happen!!
2008-05-15 13:49:27 <k1v1n> I like that David. Going to use it.
2008-05-15 13:49:29 <dsilverman> sharpen your rulers...
2008-05-15 13:49:32 <jessamyn> let's try the question board
2008-05-15 13:49:33 * amar has quit (Connection timed out)
2008-05-15 13:49:33 <bob___> cohen the librarian
2008-05-15 13:49:36 <daithi> never mind hipster librarians, but raging librarians
2008-05-15 13:49:41 <xu_> ???
2008-05-15 13:49:47 <Chilmark> a little off topic, but how does this affect the "future of the internet" Full story: http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20080514_6745.php?zone=ngtoday
2008-05-15 13:49:49 <truprop-dot-com> COHAN the libarian
2008-05-15 13:50:02 <bob___> whichever
2008-05-15 13:50:12 <truprop-dot-com> :)
2008-05-15 13:50:19 <sc1olist> @chilmark: Yeah, that's my field. If you're interested we could do a break-out on it tomorrow
2008-05-15 13:50:25 <xu_> the cyberspace war zone?
2008-05-15 13:50:28 <xu_> @_@ what does that MEAN
2008-05-15 13:50:29 <sc1olist> would people come to a cyberwar break-out?
2008-05-15 13:50:29 <sc1olist> Yeah
2008-05-15 13:50:56 <bob___> Perhaps I ought to hop on the bus and go down to harvard square
2008-05-15 13:51:01 <sc1olist> @xu: ha, yeah, actually. Network-based warfare. If it's warfare. Unclear.
2008-05-15 13:51:07 <dsilverman> or when MSN Music's DRM server shuts down!
2008-05-15 13:51:19 <wseltzer> mm.. how do we re-engineer the exceptions, rather than clearing out the cruft?
2008-05-15 13:51:21 <Chilmark> sounds good, I'll be there, although my interest is more on new biz models the net creates particularly in software delivery, data access and use
2008-05-15 13:51:28 <Chilmark> healthcare is my secotr right now
2008-05-15 13:51:34 <bob___> i think estonia is the only country that has been successfully disabled by cyberwarfare
2008-05-15 13:51:35 <truprop-dot-com> if wikipedia can replace britannica, and linux can take on windows, where are the distributed-production-movies and tvshows which can displace Seinfeld from a weekly schedule?
2008-05-15 13:51:36 <xu_> yeah
2008-05-15 13:51:47 <sc1olist> @bob__ correct. It's the one case-study
2008-05-15 13:51:57 <sc1olist> WHERE IS VALENTI?
2008-05-15 13:51:59 <dsilverman> @trupop: they're coming
2008-05-15 13:52:02 <sc1olist> I WANT VALENTI. ;)
2008-05-15 13:52:08 <Chilmark> Estonia will not be the last
2008-05-15 13:52:08 <PHB> @Chilmark the real threats of cyberwar are probably that it provides an opportunity for low intensity warfare between countries that would not possibly engage in a conventional war
2008-05-15 13:52:09 <bob___> valenti retired from riaa
2008-05-15 13:52:29 <xu_> didn't valenti die or something?
2008-05-15 13:52:32 <dsilverman> @trupop: startup costs are higher
2008-05-15 13:52:35 <davidjoho> Valenti retired the hard way. It's going to take more than cheering to get Valenti here.
2008-05-15 13:52:36 <sc1olist> Yeah, he did
2008-05-15 13:52:41 <sc1olist> @PHB that's part of it, though the intensity can actually become far more war-like then we think if you recontextualize it as an embargo.
2008-05-15 13:52:42 <bob___> anyhow, i produced some cyberweapons and open-sourced them back in 2000. All i got out of it was laid off
2008-05-15 13:52:47 <xu_> righto
2008-05-15 13:52:48 <davidjoho> Valenti was, by the way, a war hero.
2008-05-15 13:52:51 <Chilmark> conventional war is so messy
2008-05-15 13:52:53 <PHB> @Chilmark Putin's people maintain a stable of cyber-criminals. They do a few political jobs for them such as the Estonian attack
2008-05-15 13:52:56 <wseltzer> and a gentleman
2008-05-15 13:52:57 <sc1olist> @bob__: joking?
2008-05-15 13:52:59 * jsd (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000105846-66-30.client.law.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 13:53:10 <PHB> @Chilmark deniability built in
2008-05-15 13:53:12 <sc1olist> @PHB: right-on.
2008-05-15 13:53:19 <Chilmark> why not criple a country by completely hacking their digital supply chain
2008-05-15 13:53:19 <truprop-dot-com> claiming they work so that creatives can get paid, is the shield that the publishing guilds used to get the original law of elizabeth passed.
2008-05-15 13:53:25 <sc1olist> Okay, we'll do this break-out, since it appears there are folks for it
2008-05-15 13:53:35 <jessamyn> I tried, questionbot ate my question "People keep mentioning libraries as the counterexample to media/corporate ownership of IP/IPR as if the library model were something to be avoided or smoehow non-functional for someone. Can you expand on this? Who doesn\'t benefit appropriately from libraries?"
2008-05-15 13:53:40 <bob___> sc1olist - checkout the keywords 'naptha' 'dos' and 'cert'
2008-05-15 13:53:52 <xu_> ziing!
2008-05-15 13:53:57 <wseltzer> jessamyn: I'll work on it, thanks
2008-05-15 13:53:58 <ltsui> wtf
2008-05-15 13:54:03 <dsilverman> wtf?
2008-05-15 13:54:07 <fonchik> All of universities' advertising will go online?
2008-05-15 13:54:09 <sc1olist> err?
2008-05-15 13:54:10 <dsilverman> record industry != newspaper industry
2008-05-15 13:54:12 <ltsui> record industry --> newspaper industry --> universities
2008-05-15 13:54:22 <msifry> finally, a provocative statement: what's happening to the newspaper industry now will happen to elite universities
2008-05-15 13:54:23 <ahoward_> what's happening to the record industry is happening to the newspaper industry??! Um... no. napster/p2p vs craigslist
2008-05-15 13:54:24 <PHB> Sign me up for it, I have been thinking about the nexus between national security and internet crime for some time
2008-05-15 13:54:43 <truprop-dot-com> but a new model of creatives organization is seen in games dotcom, where the creatives form a corp which owns the IP they create and can share the royalties wthout many middlement
2008-05-15 13:54:46 <jessamyn> ow my eyes!!
2008-05-15 13:54:47 <PHB> But the proof only started to arrive after the book went to press last year
2008-05-15 13:55:03 <xu_> what is the "P & L"?
2008-05-15 13:55:08 <goodell> Profit and Loss
2008-05-15 13:55:09 <xu_> oh
2008-05-15 13:55:13 <daithi> Profit and loss
2008-05-15 13:55:19 <goodell> Universities are about Profit after all
2008-05-15 13:55:19 <fonchik> since when to universities publish P&L's?
2008-05-15 13:55:21 <jessamyn> holding cash is somehow a bad idea?
2008-05-15 13:55:21 <goodell> wait a minute...
2008-05-15 13:55:23 <bob___> the fundamental trick in a doS attack is that it is aymmetrical
2008-05-15 13:55:24 <xu_> i, like all good harvard students, am good at econ >_> <_<
2008-05-15 13:55:35 <truprop-dot-com> whoa! this has gone off the rails
2008-05-15 13:55:36 <sc1olist> bob___: may or may not be.
2008-05-15 13:55:47 <xu_> bob___: have you seen the article by the electrohippies?
2008-05-15 13:55:51 <dsilverman> what are we talking about again?
2008-05-15 13:55:52 <jessamyn> he likes the word "fact"
2008-05-15 13:55:52 <sc1olist> Actually, it's kind of symmetrical when it requires infratsructure to support it within a country.
2008-05-15 13:55:56 <bob___> no i haven't xu_
2008-05-15 13:55:58 <Frank_Paynter> bizarre application of business models to non-business institutions like colleges and governments
2008-05-15 13:56:02 <xu_> bob___:
2008-05-15 13:56:03 <xu_> http://www.fraw.org.uk/download/ehippies/op-01.html
2008-05-15 13:56:10 <truprop-dot-com> harvards 34b endowment means it hasn't decided to change its business model??
2008-05-15 13:56:12 <xu_> it's really interesting
2008-05-15 13:56:17 <davidjoho> he probably supports the yankees, too.
2008-05-15 13:56:24 <Frank_Paynter> need to reverse that and burn down the straussian stuff
2008-05-15 13:56:27 <xu_> "transfer western knowledge to china"
2008-05-15 13:56:31 <xu_> *twitch*
2008-05-15 13:56:31 <dsilverman> harvard's business model has worked since, well, before the founding of the united states
2008-05-15 13:56:34 <jessamyn> western knowledge to china is another odd example
2008-05-15 13:56:34 <how2> this is interesting vetor on this from everyware author adam greenfield http://www.lulu.com/content/1554599 free download
2008-05-15 13:56:37 <dwitzel> business model == mission
2008-05-15 13:56:37 <Chilmark> yale+yankees fan
2008-05-15 13:56:43 <sc1olist> @xu yeah, except Levin is quite obsessed with China...
2008-05-15 13:56:47 <davidjoho> burn the witch!
2008-05-15 13:56:48 <Frank_Paynter> values = values
2008-05-15 13:56:51 <goodell> Chilmark: scary, huh?
2008-05-15 13:56:52 <bob___> bah, whenever someone start's using the word 'terrorist', i run away in boredom
2008-05-15 13:56:54 <dwitzel> that's way too much money. what are they going to do with it?
2008-05-15 13:57:02 <sc1olist> @bob: Agreed.
2008-05-15 13:57:04 <xu_> wait so china outsourced education to the US? =P
2008-05-15 13:57:05 <Chilmark> quite
2008-05-15 13:57:14 * jsd has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]")
2008-05-15 13:57:15 <xu_> china is maybe a couple billion people long
2008-05-15 13:57:16 <truprop-dot-com> the new bsiness model for university is PHOENIX, which can be practiced only overseas by US schools.
2008-05-15 13:57:19 <xu_> to have a reasonable economy
2008-05-15 13:57:19 <sc1olist> @xu yeah, they bought yale. You didn't hear?
2008-05-15 13:57:20 <joshuakauffman> managers am
2008-05-15 13:57:27 <xu_> hahaha
2008-05-15 13:57:28 <davidjoho> i want to ask a harvard law prof if Esther's statement is right, namely that creators ought to be able to control distribution of their stuff. Is that what the Constitution says? Did it change?
2008-05-15 13:57:30 <joshuakauffman> sorry, managers make a world class economy actually
2008-05-15 13:57:31 <jcallina_> adding 30mil managers sounds like a terrible idea
2008-05-15 13:57:38 <sc1olist> http://www.yale.edu/opa/president/speeches/20070526.html
2008-05-15 13:57:43 <sc1olist> Read it; see how.
2008-05-15 13:57:53 <wseltzer> davidjoho: not a harvard law prof, but that's not my read of copyright
2008-05-15 13:58:15 <bob___> well this channel has many fragments of conversations. It's kind of an irc problem, really
2008-05-15 13:58:18 <daithi> @david : it's obviously the other constitution that they use for special occasions.
2008-05-15 13:58:20 <xu_> also, thanks for being imperialistic, US
2008-05-15 13:58:22 <truprop-dot-com> original consitition arranged patent and copyright as limited time monopoly to encourage innovation, as aI recall
2008-05-15 13:58:28 <jessamyn> @xu my point exactly
2008-05-15 13:58:35 <k1v1n> Please tell me that Phonix isn't the model.
2008-05-15 13:58:36 * jcallina_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 3.0b5/2008032620]")
2008-05-15 13:58:38 <PHB> hmm do we need western experts for that?
2008-05-15 13:58:56 <bob___> Every time i hear accusations of the us being imperialistic, but attention starts to wander
2008-05-15 13:58:57 <davidjoho> ues, truprop, I thought the assumption was that published works belong to the public, although a temporary monopoly is carved out to provide an incentive
2008-05-15 13:59:02 <Frank_Paynter> hooked on Phoenix
2008-05-15 13:59:02 <fonchik> we get cheap clothes and toys, they get business schools? is this a fair trade?
2008-05-15 13:59:03 <xu_> jessamyn: modern-day colonialism makes me itchy
2008-05-15 13:59:10 <bob___> ha ha Frank_Paynter
2008-05-15 13:59:13 <sc1olist> @xu: we do kind of throw that phrase around, though.
2008-05-15 13:59:13 <PHB> Can imagine cases where content comes in from Harvard/MIT and the teaching comes local
2008-05-15 13:59:23 <jessamyn> @xu, yeah me too and technology is such a trojan horse for that sometimes
2008-05-15 13:59:27 <xu_> sc1olist: what phrase?
2008-05-15 13:59:28 <guan> davidjoho: yes, the congress has to explicitly grant the right
2008-05-15 13:59:28 <sc1olist> @xu: is it possible, then, to hvae a Western-style university in China without it being imperailistic?
2008-05-15 13:59:36 <sc1olist> "modern-day colonialism"
2008-05-15 13:59:42 <xu_> sc1olist: why western-styled?
2008-05-15 13:59:46 <ahoward_> MIT already puts nearly all of their courses online now -- no need to go local
2008-05-15 13:59:49 <devoncopley> Section 8: The Congress shall have the power ... To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
2008-05-15 13:59:53 <guan> davidjoho: article 1, section 8, congress can "promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"
2008-05-15 13:59:58 <ltsui> @davidjoho i m no expert, but copyright as a natural right is more a european philosophy
2008-05-15 13:59:59 <guan> argh
2008-05-15 14:00:00 <fonchik> @xu is modern-day colonialism more or less dangerous than the old-fashioned kind?
2008-05-15 14:00:00 <sc1olist> @xu: just an example...since I thought we were referring to that, the whole Yale exporting thing.
2008-05-15 14:00:02 <Frank_Paynter> poker reference
2008-05-15 14:00:03 <dsilverman> knew this was coming!
2008-05-15 14:00:09 <xu_> haha
2008-05-15 14:00:10 <EricaG> BINGO!
2008-05-15 14:00:11 <davidjoho> so, the notion that creators just naturally ought to be allowed to control their stuff -- as if IP is like physical prop -- is a relatively new assumption.
2008-05-15 14:00:13 <sc1olist> All in!
2008-05-15 14:00:21 <devoncopley> not new in france
2008-05-15 14:00:24 <bob___> copyright is not a natural right, it is a contract
2008-05-15 14:00:30 <ltsui> @davidjoho not new in europe
2008-05-15 14:00:30 <davidjoho> no, moral rights are not new in europe.
2008-05-15 14:00:38 <devoncopley> france has the "droit moral" which connotes exactly that
2008-05-15 14:00:38 <truprop-dot-com> profiting from your own labor, could be a natural right
2008-05-15 14:00:38 <wseltzer> we export our movies to France, and import their droit d'auteur
2008-05-15 14:00:39 <sc1olist> @xu--we'll have to continue this offline.
2008-05-15 14:00:44 <davewiner> twitter is down
2008-05-15 14:00:50 <sc1olist> @davew down down?
2008-05-15 14:00:54 <xu_> fonchik: i don't know. i don't think it matters whether it's more or less, it just is
2008-05-15 14:00:56 <davewiner> i wonder if charlie would like to know
2008-05-15 14:01:02 <k1v1n> Twitter down? That's hard to believe.
2008-05-15 14:01:10 <davewiner> i'm in the overflow room so i can't tell him
2008-05-15 14:01:12 <Frank_Paynter> first time
2008-05-15 14:01:14 <daithi> no, it's not a contract, in a strict sense...it's a statutory privilege. you can deal with it by contract of course.
2008-05-15 14:01:17 <xu_> sc1olist: yeah, but my point is...the way western education has been ported to China has not really been healthy for the education system there
2008-05-15 14:01:22 <davewiner> esther might want to know
2008-05-15 14:01:30 <davewiner> i doubt if the guy from viacom wants to know
2008-05-15 14:01:39 <davewiner> he thinks the riaa are good people
2008-05-15 14:01:44 * amar (n=chatzill@dhcp-0000072912-91-1a.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 14:01:45 <xu_> sc1olist: the problem with management in china isn't that we don't have enough managers
2008-05-15 14:01:45 <truprop-dot-com> neeson: I'm already doing it at http://beeweb.org
2008-05-15 14:01:47 <bob___> truprop-dot-com: you could keep you work secret, and profit by its results. but then you have to worry about losing your secret. by disclosing its workings, you are guarantted exclusie use for a limited period of time,. it is a contact.
2008-05-15 14:01:56 <sc1olist> @xu: yeah, I agree with you, I kind of want to tease that out though. I'm interested in it. Yeah, definitely.
2008-05-15 14:01:57 <xu_> it's that people aren't accountable and respectful and corruption is dime a dozen
2008-05-15 14:02:08 <xu_> in jamaica, too, for that matter
2008-05-15 14:02:13 <thinkingSage> 30% of people do the right thing they say
2008-05-15 14:02:20 <thinkingSage> given the opportunity
2008-05-15 14:02:25 <how2> http://www.openmoko.com/
2008-05-15 14:02:25 <sc1olist> @xu: though I wonder if that's an issue of education or the governmental culture, or simply underdevelopment...? Anyways, we'll talk.
2008-05-15 14:02:39 <msifry> damn, for a second there, i thought we were going to get into a discussion of the future of the elite university
2008-05-15 14:02:43 <fonchik> Statements that begin with "In most countries" make me itchy.
2008-05-15 14:02:52 <xu_> sc1olist: this is totally uneducated, but i kind of pin it on the aftermath of the cultural revolution
2008-05-15 14:02:58 <bob___> ha ha fonchik
2008-05-15 14:03:08 <truprop-dot-com> I think that copyright is a social contract of the sort that JZ talked about this morning. It workd for books for many years as copying was hard and people liked when folks like JKRowling made money.
2008-05-15 14:03:11 <wseltzer> why will we still be using "the Internet" in 15 years?
2008-05-15 14:03:12 <sc1olist> @xu: no it's not. That's quite a fair starting-point.
2008-05-15 14:03:14 <Frank_Paynter> UN defines a country as an entity that is equipped to make war
2008-05-15 14:03:21 <bob___> I think that Harvard should not worry about other countries, and should simply focus on educating the US.
2008-05-15 14:03:26 <sc1olist> @wseltzer: because we're addicted to the information it provides?
2008-05-15 14:03:31 <PHB> How many divisions has the Pope?
2008-05-15 14:03:38 <Frank_Paynter> I think they should buy modern armaments
2008-05-15 14:03:41 <xu_> bob___: here here, but that doesn't get professors and students onto exotic field trips, so it won't happen
2008-05-15 14:03:48 <wseltzer> I sure don't want to be using just the one being described up here
2008-05-15 14:03:55 <daithi> what will "the Internet" be in 15 years? What was it 15 years ago (remember, that's pre-commercialisation)?
2008-05-15 14:03:55 <goodell> sc1olist: arguably, that may be the answer to why we are still using cable...?
2008-05-15 14:03:57 <bob___> xu_: ha ha ok
2008-05-15 14:03:58 <truprop-dot-com> harvard should buy armaments?
2008-05-15 14:04:02 <davewiner> :D
2008-05-15 14:04:04 <sc1olist> @bob: why about the fact that I find it fascinating to have foreign students in my course? Isn't that a boon to my education to have their perspectives?
2008-05-15 14:04:06 <Frank_Paynter> yup
2008-05-15 14:04:09 <truprop-dot-com> to defend its 34$b frm the state treasurer?
2008-05-15 14:04:10 <bob___> harvard has armaments
2008-05-15 14:04:11 <davidjoho> @bob___, Charlie has a commitment to open access, which means the world is there anyway.
2008-05-15 14:04:13 <xu_> 1993: was Q-Link still around?!
2008-05-15 14:04:15 <Frank_Paynter> zackly
2008-05-15 14:04:17 <fonchik> re: the pope Is the myth true that Harvard University is the world's second largest non-profit true?
2008-05-15 14:04:19 <bob___> harvard was founded by vikings
2008-05-15 14:04:30 <fonchik> (the first supposedly being the Vatican)
2008-05-15 14:04:30 <xu_> yeah it was.
2008-05-15 14:04:30 <sc1olist> @fonchik behind the church?
2008-05-15 14:04:35 <bob___> 3rd largest non profit now
2008-05-15 14:04:41 <sc1olist> @bob: what's #2 now?
2008-05-15 14:04:47 <bob___> with buffet's donation to the gates foundation, it's bigger
2008-05-15 14:04:51 <sc1olist> ahahaha
2008-05-15 14:04:54 <goodell> ah, right.
2008-05-15 14:04:54 * pde_was_stolen has quit (Remote closed the connection)
2008-05-15 14:05:02 <daithi> Esther: "I want to tell stories about the real world"
2008-05-15 14:05:04 <truprop-dot-com> ok - now I get the analogy -- the music industry didnt change in time; will the university change in time?
2008-05-15 14:05:09 <xu_> everyone else: What is that?
2008-05-15 14:05:13 * ilteris_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
2008-05-15 14:05:25 <Frank_Paynter> wears a cape
2008-05-15 14:05:28 * davewiner has quit ()
2008-05-15 14:05:29 <bob___> I'd like to start my own university. i think harvard is too broken to be fixed.
2008-05-15 14:05:40 <xu_> bob___: do you go to harvard?
2008-05-15 14:05:42 <truprop-dot-com> multimouse? any url
2008-05-15 14:05:45 <guan> http://research.microsoft.com/users/udaip/multipoint.htm
2008-05-15 14:05:47 <bob___> xu_: yes
2008-05-15 14:05:47 <PHB> Why is everyone concentrating on how Harvard is going to spread existing education rather than developing the next generation of content?
2008-05-15 14:05:47 <sc1olist> @bob: Hence, Yale.
2008-05-15 14:05:48 <Frank_Paynter> multi-mouse will save the day
2008-05-15 14:05:53 <xu_> bob___: what year are you?
2008-05-15 14:05:54 <truprop-dot-com> Bob, if you can raise the $100M, I will be president.
2008-05-15 14:05:56 <jessamyn> multimouse http://research.microsoft.com/displayarticle.aspx?id=1471
2008-05-15 14:06:05 <jessamyn> http://www.archive.org/details/tucows_8493_MultiMouse
2008-05-15 14:06:10 * ilteris_ (n=ilteris@216.223.194.250) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 14:06:14 <PHB> The assumption seems to be that the future academy will still be run on the same silos as the past
2008-05-15 14:06:15 <bob___> sc1olist: it's broken too. Also, it's not in my neighborhood. Harvard is the neighborhood schoolhouse.
2008-05-15 14:06:15 <truprop-dot-com> thanks jessamyn
2008-05-15 14:06:21 <jessamyn> http://web.mit.edu/maiki/www/portfolio/multi.html
2008-05-15 14:06:25 <Frank_Paynter> http://www.fitbuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/mighty-mouse.jpg
2008-05-15 14:06:38 <bob___> truprop-dot-com: what are your qualifications?
2008-05-15 14:06:56 * pde_was_stolen (n=pde@209.237.230.67) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 14:07:30 <bob___> My qualifications for starting a university is that i have been a student at 5 now, and i am a renaissance man / dilletante
2008-05-15 14:07:45 * Deaner has quit ()
2008-05-15 14:08:06 <bob___> Also, with my greying hair i look the part
2008-05-15 14:08:37 <fonchik> which country is she talking about?
2008-05-15 14:08:45 <jessamyn> south africa
2008-05-15 14:08:46 <dwitzel> south africa
2008-05-15 14:08:47 <xu_> when has the government EVER succeeded at doing that?
2008-05-15 14:08:54 <truprop-dot-com> Bob - search for bigname@scientist.com
2008-05-15 14:09:01 <how2> using the cellphone as controllers and community space such examples as http://www.megaphone3000.com/
2008-05-15 14:09:02 <xu_> the only situation i really know about that is similar is the cell phone industry in jamaica
2008-05-15 14:09:09 <sc1olist> @xu South Korea?
2008-05-15 14:09:12 <xu_> and until they privatized, it was the biggest crappiest crapfest ever
2008-05-15 14:09:13 <sc1olist> (not sure tho)
2008-05-15 14:09:22 <sc1olist> @xu that was infrastructure investment tho
2008-05-15 14:09:33 <how2> the cellphone is our multi mouse now
2008-05-15 14:09:38 <goodell> Is it just me, or is twitter.com not responding to HTTP requests?
2008-05-15 14:09:38 <xu_> yaeh but south korea is a strange situation
2008-05-15 14:09:46 <xu_> and hardly a developing country, i would argue
2008-05-15 14:09:56 <bob___> what i want to know is where and when is the free beer?
2008-05-15 14:09:57 <xu_> (any country whose national sport is starcraft definitely shouldn't count =P)
2008-05-15 14:10:01 <wseltzer> goodell: twitter is down
2008-05-15 14:10:11 <sc1olist> @xu Are you familiar with the K-Scae?
2008-05-15 14:10:13 <sc1olist> *scale
2008-05-15 14:10:15 <jessamyn> David Markham?
2008-05-15 14:10:19 <goodell> wseltzer: thanks, just asking because the bot seems inactive.
2008-05-15 14:10:42 <wseltzer> David Marglin
2008-05-15 14:11:01 * guan has quit ()
2008-05-15 14:11:04 <sc1olist> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/node/144
2008-05-15 14:11:21 <jessamyn> http://www.taste.com/marglin/about/
2008-05-15 14:11:27 * bob___ is wearing his legion of doom t-shirt
2008-05-15 14:11:47 <jessamyn> what a dude metaphor
2008-05-15 14:12:02 <xu_> sc1olist: nope
2008-05-15 14:12:03 <sc1olist> Did he just say his loins of code?
2008-05-15 14:12:06 <robotika> loins?
2008-05-15 14:12:24 <bob___> wow i hope his uses a long__int
2008-05-15 14:12:25 <ahoward_> brandished his saber and then girded his loins. dangerous order.
2008-05-15 14:12:33 <sc1olist> @xu (the scale of internet addiction. hi-larious. the K is for Korea)
2008-05-15 14:12:35 <daithi> i hope he doesn't get a viris
2008-05-15 14:12:40 <daithi> (virus)
2008-05-15 14:12:46 <sc1olist> @xu actual psychological measurement scale.
2008-05-15 14:12:46 <davidjoho> "Loins of Code" ... another great t shirt!
2008-05-15 14:12:55 <sc1olist> @davidjohn Okay, shirt #2
2008-05-15 14:12:59 <bob___> davidjoho: I agree!
2008-05-15 14:13:10 <xu_> sc1olist: hahaha, that's awesome! i don't want to know where i am on that scale.
2008-05-15 14:13:18 <sc1olist> @xu I'd rather not know where I fall.
2008-05-15 14:13:24 <Chilmark> harvard open access?
2008-05-15 14:13:29 <sc1olist> @xu but it involves a deep longing for information in my downtime. That's rough.
2008-05-15 14:13:43 <sc1olist> http://chronicle.com/news/article/3943/harvard-faculty-adopts-open-access-requirement
2008-05-15 14:13:57 * Deaner (n=Deaner@dhcp-0000019431-ea-c2.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 14:14:06 <daithi> http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2008/05/07_openaccess.php
2008-05-15 14:14:07 <davidjoho> faculty are required to put into an open accewss repository any paper accepted by a journal.
2008-05-15 14:14:13 <davidjoho> there is an easy, automatic opt-out
2008-05-15 14:14:22 <robotika> and dont forget National Library of Medicine Open Access
2008-05-15 14:14:26 <bob___> yea the open access idea is good
2008-05-15 14:14:26 * beex is now known as EON__
2008-05-15 14:14:27 <Chilmark> thanks- quite interesting, what does taht mean to Nature or Science
2008-05-15 14:14:30 <davidjoho> Arts&Scis passed it a few months ago. Law school passed it a couple of weeks ago.
2008-05-15 14:14:31 * EON__ is now known as beex
2008-05-15 14:14:56 <jessamyn> I like to think we killed twitter :\
2008-05-15 14:14:58 <bob___> i've managed to legally hack my way into a wide variety of scientific libraries
2008-05-15 14:15:13 <xu_> jessamyn: if roflcon couldn't kill twitter, NOTHING CAN
2008-05-15 14:15:24 <jessamyn> all librarians have a list of library cards - skeleton keys of information if you will
2008-05-15 14:15:25 <sc1olist> @xu: nice to know you all had an empirical purpose...
2008-05-15 14:15:27 <ahoward_> NIH has gone open access too: http://www.genomeweb.com/issues/news/146121-1.html
2008-05-15 14:15:27 <davidjoho> I killed twitter. I posted a tweet whose length was an irrational number.
2008-05-15 14:15:30 <goodell> compare OpenCourseWare at MIT
2008-05-15 14:15:37 <bob___> the church of scientology could kill it
2008-05-15 14:15:46 <sc1olist> @bob: Xenu killed twitter.
2008-05-15 14:16:05 <beex> I blame eon
2008-05-15 14:16:06 <bob___> yes! xenu did it!
2008-05-15 14:16:08 * Deaner has quit (Client Quit)
2008-05-15 14:16:10 <sc1olist> Who?
2008-05-15 14:16:20 <Frank_Paynter> wikipedia versus peer review?
2008-05-15 14:16:20 <geeta> this is kind of cool
2008-05-15 14:16:24 <bob___> he who must not be named
2008-05-15 14:16:25 <geeta> http://www.instructables.com/id/Wikipedia-in-your-pocket/
2008-05-15 14:16:42 <ahoward_> that's way cool, geeta
2008-05-15 14:16:45 <jessamyn> "mass listening"
2008-05-15 14:16:49 <bob___> i have a very good wikipedia article i maintain, thank you
2008-05-15 14:16:59 <EricaG> does paris hilton *have* ideas?
2008-05-15 14:17:03 <Frank_Paynter> those aren't ideas she broadcasts
2008-05-15 14:17:07 <bob___> if you care to search for botryococcus braunii
2008-05-15 14:17:33 * davewiner (n=davewine@dsl092-085-227.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 14:17:39 * amar has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
2008-05-15 14:17:41 <msifry> davidjoho: was your number predictably irrational?
2008-05-15 14:17:43 <jessamyn> forget answers, MORE QUESTIONS!
2008-05-15 14:18:01 <bob___> what is the answer to life, the universe, and....everything?
2008-05-15 14:18:02 * Deaner (n=Deaner@dhcp-0000019431-ea-c2.client.fas.harvard.edu) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 14:18:03 <wseltzer> I have a mic!
2008-05-15 14:18:10 <davidjoho> not irrational so much as just poorly thought through,
2008-05-15 14:18:18 <davidjoho> go wendy! go wendy!
2008-05-15 14:18:29 <wseltzer> now I just need eon
2008-05-15 14:18:33 <wseltzer> 's attention
2008-05-15 14:18:33 <robotika> @ bob__ 42
2008-05-15 14:18:38 <davidjoho> we are all eon
2008-05-15 14:18:40 <Frank_Paynter> and crop circles
2008-05-15 14:18:48 <PHB> @davidjoho a t-shirt? I would have thought a different article of clothing
2008-05-15 14:18:52 <bob___> robotika - nah, it's sqrt(-1)
2008-05-15 14:19:00 <sc1olist> 0 came from Al Gore.
2008-05-15 14:19:05 <sc1olist> She lies.
2008-05-15 14:19:15 <xu_> haha
2008-05-15 14:19:16 <Frank_Paynter> sara doesn't lie
2008-05-15 14:19:22 <geeta> back in a few!
2008-05-15 14:19:23 <goodell> currently speaking: http://sarasworld.blogspot.com/
2008-05-15 14:19:25 <davidjoho> Are you saying that Al Gore invented nothing?
2008-05-15 14:19:26 * geeta has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]")
2008-05-15 14:19:29 <Frank_Paynter> al gore invented oh
2008-05-15 14:19:37 <xu_> i didn't like the way eon phrased that
2008-05-15 14:19:40 <bob___> al gore invented allegory
2008-05-15 14:19:45 <xu_> it's a really inaccurate representation of what SSET actually does
2008-05-15 14:19:49 <davidjoho> al gore invented algorithms
2008-05-15 14:19:54 <xu_> it also makes it sound like Berkman runs SSET
2008-05-15 14:19:54 <bob___> that too
2008-05-15 14:20:00 <xu_> whereras SSET is just sponsored BY berkman
2008-05-15 14:20:03 <sc1olist> Al Gore draws all our crop circles by hand.
2008-05-15 14:20:04 <xu_> it's run by kevin, who is very jamaican
2008-05-15 14:20:07 <Frank_Paynter> is al gore albanian?
2008-05-15 14:20:13 <truprop-dot-com> algorithms were from Iraq, all destroyed in the library
2008-05-15 14:20:19 <xu_> al-khwarizmi
2008-05-15 14:20:28 <bob___> al-kohol
2008-05-15 14:20:37 <Frank_Paynter> homeland security jhas been alerted via NSA
2008-05-15 14:20:47 <sc1olist> ha
2008-05-15 14:20:49 <jessamyn> listening, they are!
2008-05-15 14:20:53 <how2> http://www.rpi.edu/~eglash/eglash.dir/afractal/afractal.htm
2008-05-15 14:20:56 <fonchik> who's the questioner?
2008-05-15 14:21:01 <xu_> oh man
2008-05-15 14:21:02 <Frank_Paynter> jhas = jihas
2008-05-15 14:21:03 <sc1olist> Well we do have an NSA guy in the audience...
2008-05-15 14:21:06 <davidjoho> sarah wedeman
2008-05-15 14:21:12 <bob___> I have the nsa key
2008-05-15 14:21:20 <daithi> Sarah Wedeman : http://sarasworld.blogspot.com/
2008-05-15 14:21:31 * dsilverman (n=zeno@140.247.243.177) has left #berkman
2008-05-15 14:21:34 <davidjoho> In the midwest, egocentonic is called egocenpop.
2008-05-15 14:21:44 <Frank_Paynter> egocensoda
2008-05-15 14:21:57 <Frank_Paynter> NSA guy
2008-05-15 14:21:59 <jessamyn> egocentrifuge
2008-05-15 14:22:04 <ahoward_> @davidjoho and sneakernets are called shoenets
2008-05-15 14:22:04 <bob___> egowaffle
2008-05-15 14:22:06 <davidjoho> wendy! wendy! wendy!
2008-05-15 14:22:16 * robotika has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]")
2008-05-15 14:22:41 <davidjoho> a birdie whispers in my ear: "I am feeling egocatatonic."
2008-05-15 14:22:58 <bob___> so, how about that beer?
2008-05-15 14:23:08 <sc1olist> @bob soon!
2008-05-15 14:23:20 <bob___> good because i am thirsty
2008-05-15 14:23:26 <davidjoho> wendy! wendy! wendy!
2008-05-15 14:23:41 <jessamyn> "I'm on the Obama team..."
2008-05-15 14:23:50 <davidjoho> yeah, yeah, gobama. get on with it.
2008-05-15 14:23:56 <bob___> Was anyone else here in my Berkman LTSU E-120 class this semester?
2008-05-15 14:24:12 <bob___> Obama! The higher primate!
2008-05-15 14:24:18 <Frank_Paynter> will we have a foreign policy again?
2008-05-15 14:24:31 <bob___> now, just foreign police
2008-05-15 14:24:42 <Frank_Paynter> yup
2008-05-15 14:24:47 * devoncopley is now known as djdevvydev
2008-05-15 14:25:01 <davidjoho> better a foreign policy than a foreign bolixy.
2008-05-15 14:25:03 <Frank_Paynter> djdevvydev!!!
2008-05-15 14:25:17 <davidjoho> my attention is finding nothing to hang on to in this part of the discussion.
2008-05-15 14:25:22 * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@207.47.11.2.static.nextweb.net) has joined #berkman
2008-05-15 14:25:26 <davidjoho> i may just be conferenced out :(
2008-05-15 14:25:27 <ltsui> public opinion != polling
2008-05-15 14:25:28 <xu_> davidjoho: i hear that
2008-05-15 14:25:35 <sc1olist> @david 4pm is Death Hour for conferences
2008-05-15 14:25:44 <Chilmark> just can't quite get from this conversation to the title of the session
2008-05-15 14:25:46 <Frank_Paynter> thinking and doing!
2008-05-15 14:25:47 <sc1olist> @xu Reed was saying that right beofre we sat down.
2008-05-15 14:25:47 <msifry> what is 5:25pm?
2008-05-15 14:25:48 <davidjoho> so, are we in the afterlife now?
2008-05-15 14:25:52 <daithi> i'm trying to liveblog and the topic keeps changing, so i'm just giving up and doing random thoughts and quotes!
2008-05-15 14:25:53 <xu_> bob___: are you extension school?
2008-05-15 14:25:58 <bob___> xu_: yes
2008-05-15 14:25:59 <EricaG> i want wendy to get the mic
2008-05-15 14:26:00 <Chilmark> something about the future of the internet as recall
2008-05-15 14:26:00 <sc1olist> His quote: "Oh god, the dreaded 4pm slot."
2008-05-15 14:26:08 <davidjoho> wendy! wendy! wendy!
2008-05-15 14:26:11 <daithi> @Erica, agreed. Draft Wendy!
2008-05-15 14:26:12 <jessamyn> it beats just after lunch, actually
2008-05-15 14:26:13 <xu_> ahh
2008-05-15 14:26:15 <sc1olist> Thank god you all are here, staving off my jetlag.
2008-05-15 14:26:23 <bob___> it's not 4pm that['s the problem, it's 4:20
2008-05-15 14:26:24 <davidjoho> as long as no one says "I'm the only thing standing between you and a beer.":
2008-05-15 14:26:36 <ahoward_> yes. where's the discussion about the future of the Internet? here? lack of Twitter snark making me tetchy.
2008-05-15 14:26:58 * djdevvydev is now known as djdevvydev_
2008-05-15 14:27:03 <bob___> the Internet will be cancelled
2008-05-15 14:27:23 <bob___> only the interweb 2.0 will survive
2008-05-15 14:27:28 <sc1olist> What'll be its mid-season replacement?
2008-05-15 14:27:43 <Chilmark> regression
2008-05-15 14:27:47 <bob___> dukes of hazzard
2008-05-15 14:27:51 <davidjoho> Internet: The Reality TV Show
2008-05-15 14:27:52 <jessamyn> blogonets?
2008-05-15 14:28:01 <Chilmark> car 54 where are you
2008-05-15 14:28:04 <daithi> Woohoooooo!
2008-05-15 14:28:06 <jessamyn> WENDY!!!!!
2008-05-15 14:28:10 <daithi> WENDY
2008-05-15 14:28:13 <ahoward_> wendy wendy wendy!
2008-05-15 14:28:14 <sc1olist> I can't help be reminded, in Nessen's shirt, of the Oxford New College Master who dines every niht in front of a portrait of himself.
2008-05-15 14:28:15 <ltsui> wendy!
2008-05-15 14:28:27 <EricaG> Yay Wendy!!
2008-05-15 14:28:43 <bob___> sc1olist: I am unfamiliar with that
2008-05-15 14:28:51 <EricaG> Is this the first time all day the question tool has gotten representation in the main conversation?
2008-05-15 14:29:01 <sc1olist> Yes, officially.
2008-05-15 14:29:02 <davidjoho> yes
2008-05-15 14:29:02 * djdevvydev_ is now known as djdevvydev
2008-05-15 14:29:03 <ahoward_> I think so, Erica.
2008-05-15 14:29:07 <davidjoho> go jessamyn!
2008-05-15 14:29:08 <sc1olist> Though Nessen brought up a question from it to start this off.
2008-05-15 14:29:18 <daithi> Thanks Wendy...
2008-05-15 14:29:19 <EricaG> Ok, we need to do a lot better on that tomorrow.
2008-05-15 14:29:24 <sc1olist> Yes
2008-05-15 14:29:26 <jessamyn> thanks wendy
2008-05-15 14:29:55 <wseltzer> thanks for the questions, sorry we couldn't get more in earlier
2008-05-15 14:30:10 <jessamyn> ooh fascinating answer, about the communicative "function" of copyrights
2008-05-15 14:30:13 <sc1olist> No prolem; we ran out of time with the most active one: JZ
2008-05-15 14:30:32 <EricaG> does this make any sense at all?
2008-05-15 14:30:33 * KevinMarks has quit ("The computer fell asleep")
2008-05-15 14:30:39 <daithi> what did he just say?
2008-05-15 14:30:39 <dwitzel> no copyright = no feedback
2008-05-15 14:30:50 <EricaG> yeah, no sense at all
2008-05-15 14:30:52 <jessamyn> they don' tknow what to make for us
2008-05-15 14:30:55 <xu_> "in many cases we are the artist"
2008-05-15 14:30:55 <daithi> "in many cases, we are the artist"
2008-05-15 14:30:55 <xu_> Um
2008-05-15 14:30:56 <xu_> NO
2008-05-15 14:30:57 <ThomasKriese> we are the decider
2008-05-15 14:30:57 <jessamyn> if we don't VOTE WITH DOLLARS
2008-05-15 14:30:58 <daithi> um
2008-05-15 14:30:59 <sc1olist> "WE OWN MUSIC
2008-05-15 14:31:03 <xu_> vomit
2008-05-15 14:31:03 <jessamyn> and libraroes, as you know, keep no records at all
2008-05-15 14:31:03 <sc1olist> WE OWN OUR ARTISTS
2008-05-15 14:31:05 <EricaG> "we are the artist" !?? WTF?
2008-05-15 14:31:06 <sc1olist> ::cackle::
2008-05-15 14:31:06 <wseltzer> we need copyright so we have a way for the public to tell us what they want
2008-05-15 14:31:09 <bob___> Mormon Church Handbook of Instructions (1999)
2008-05-15 14:31:09 <ahoward_> viacom: we can't force you to buy/watch our content. Hmm. Advertising? Copyright is consumer's way of telling them what we want to see?
2008-05-15 14:31:11 <ahoward_> errr
2008-05-15 14:31:14 <ltsui> we pay you, we own you
2008-05-15 14:31:15 <sc1olist> @Erica (as in a Comedy Central show)
2008-05-15 14:31:16 <bob___> ewps sorry mispaste
2008-05-15 14:31:19 <jessamyn> I mean it's a good parry, really
2008-05-15 14:31:33 <bway> that was a lame point, how come no one can respond coherently.
2008-05-15 14:31:38 <wseltzer> but I bet we could find a dozen better communications methods
2008-05-15 14:31:50 <sc1olist> He is speaking words but not saying anything.
2008-05-15 14:31:52 <EricaG> @sc1olist OK I get it, but still. The corporation is not the creative, it is the facilitator of the creatives
2008-05-15 14:31:53 <xu_> yeah
2008-05-15 14:31:54 <jessamyn> yeah, totally true, this should be more of a lighting round, imo
2008-05-15 14:32:04 <bway> If they want "feedback" to know what to produce, put up a Damn web form!
2008-05-15 14:32:26 <davidjoho> given that every site in the world that offers up creative works for us to enjoy has SOME method for tracking popularity, Mike's point seems, um, weak.
2008-05-15 14:32:28 <jessamyn> as if media is all "give the people what they want" and not a way to push product anyhow
2008-05-15 14:32:30 <sc1olist> Who's this?
2008-05-15 14:33:01 <bob___> funny, i don't use any popular culture
2008-05-15 14:33:02 <EricaG> A restaurant doesn't claim that it "is" its chefs... (and the chefs are often the key selling point, not the corporation behind them)
2008-05-15 14:33:03 <sc1olist> That's because Europe is in the techonological dark ages.
2008-05-15 14:33:30 <EricaG> @bob___ My mother raised me to be contemptuous of popular culture. My rebellion was to become a student of it :D.
2008-05-15 14:33:33 <Frank_Paynter> I haven't used popular culture since the prices went up
2008-05-15 14:33:40 <sc1olist> @EricaG: Well, actually, it does, unless you're very much in the food world. The pedigree is the restaurant, and even when they sell chefs, it has do to with where they served.
2008-05-15 14:33:52 <bob___> EricaG: ha ha! well you can be a good outsider looking in that case!
2008-05-15 14:33:55 <EricaG> I get all my pop culture for free (or a few on Hulu w minimal ads)
2008-05-15 14:33:56 <sc1olist> E.g. "Eric Rippert, ex-Gary Danko sous chef"...
2008-05-15 14:34:24 <EricaG> @bob___ No I mean, my rebellion ended up being that I deeply adore and find serious meaning in pop culture
2008-05-15 14:34:37 <xu_> aca/fan
2008-05-15 14:34:46 <bob___> EricaG: well, that that's too bad for you
2008-05-15 14:34:53 <xu_> bob___: why?
2008-05-15 14:34:57 <ahoward_> @EricaG Watch Hulu without ads using Safari AdBlocker: http://www.zaphu.com/2008/04/17/watch-hulucom-and-abccom-videos-without-commercial-interruption/
2008-05-15 14:35:23 <jessamyn> globl warming - thanks for staying awake!!
2008-05-15 14:35:25 <bob___> xu_: because pop culture is embued with messages of control
2008-05-15 14:35:25 <EricaG> I really don't mind a total of a couple minutes of ads in exchange for content.
2008-05-15 14:35:32 <sc1olist> Hey is there such thing as a free-use US-Based VPN I can use, short of logging into my alma mater, to get hulu while abroad?
2008-05-15 14:35:37 <xu_> um. what isn't?
2008-05-15 14:35:48 <sc1olist> @bob: uh-oh, this just got into crop circle territory.
2008-05-15 14:35:51 <EricaG> And subverting, coopting, remixing, and critiquing pop culture is a major aspect of pop culture
2008-05-15 14:35:55 <sc1olist> @xu yeah.
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2008-05-15 14:36:04 <bob___> sc1olist: anyone can make a crop circle
2008-05-15 14:36:09 <jessamyn> I like the idea of defaults generally though
2008-05-15 14:36:18 <sc1olist> Bob: no, only Al Gore can. This we've established. ;)
2008-05-15 14:36:19 <jessamyn> which a few people have mentioned
2008-05-15 14:36:22 <bway> I love librarians
2008-05-15 14:36:26 <bob___> sc1olist: oh sorry
2008-05-15 14:36:33 <sc1olist> no problem. fair mistake
2008-05-15 14:36:38 <Frank_Paynter> who is this with the cicrophone
2008-05-15 14:36:42 <davidjoho> great question!!
2008-05-15 14:36:42 <Frank_Paynter> microphone
2008-05-15 14:36:44 <davidjoho> yay!
2008-05-15 14:37:02 <wseltzer> excellent riposte
2008-05-15 14:37:06 <daithi> "answer the question again" - hear hear. Will try and make sense of it this time.
2008-05-15 14:37:09 <ltsui> ha :)
2008-05-15 14:37:19 <bob___> ok this is making my head hurt. I need to go listen to some music....something calm and soothing like skinny puppy or genocide organ
2008-05-15 14:37:28 <sc1olist> ha!@
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2008-05-15 14:38:01 <jessamyn> libraries predate copyright, AMIRITE??
2008-05-15 14:38:06 <EricaG> isn;t this an old, old old argument?
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2008-05-15 14:38:08 <thinkingSage> Charles Dickens would disagree
2008-05-15 14:38:08 <daithi> Oh dear
2008-05-15 14:38:18 <daithi> Libraries wouldn't exist without compensation?
2008-05-15 14:38:20 <goodell> But do free markets imply ownership in perpetuity?
2008-05-15 14:38:30 * andysellars is now known as andys
2008-05-15 14:38:33 <sc1olist> @Erica Yes. It is. Everyone who hasn't seen it needs to re-watch the Valenti/Lessig debate from 2000 here.
2008-05-15 14:38:40 <sc1olist> Great TV
2008-05-15 14:38:41 <thinkingSage> the Industrial Revolution would have stayed in Britian with lawful adherence to copyright.
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2008-05-15 14:38:46 <EricaG> "I drank the company kool-aid so I am unable to give anything other than the corporate-approved canned response"
2008-05-15 14:38:48 <bway> I think bittorrent is redefining the term "free market"
2008-05-15 14:39:02 <thinkingSage> that dude practically IS the coproration
2008-05-15 14:39:02 <Frank_Paynter> as in free beer
2008-05-15 14:39:03 <jessamyn> he's pretty good natured about it, considering
2008-05-15 14:39:25 <docsearls> there is so much I want to say here... jeebus.
2008-05-15 14:39:27 * andys is now known as andyontheroad
2008-05-15 14:39:34 <sc1olist> THEN HE WOULD BE UNEMPLOYED.
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2008-05-15 14:40:04 <daithi> Metadata for all content proposed by Viacom = nice way of talking about RMI!
2008-05-15 14:40:05 <jessamyn> "If you had to get a new job in 2008, not in a media corporation, what would you like to do?"
2008-05-15 14:40:22 <docsearls> The net was not produced so people could make money with it. It was produced, among other reasons, so people could make money ON it.
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2008-05-15 14:40:44 <pde_was_stolen> EricaG: when you are the General Counsel for viacom, your position and pay-grade counsel caution in a forum like this :)
2008-05-15 14:40:44 <bob___> docsearls: the net was not produced
2008-05-15 14:40:56 <docsearls> right.
2008-05-15 14:41:03 <docsearls> I'll go back to what I was writing.
2008-05-15 14:41:06 <ahoward_> jordan pollock speaking
2008-05-15 14:41:09 <davidjoho> i want to ask (but can't) : we now have two visions. One says we want to build the commons. The other is that we should hae a system of perfect control. Discuss.
2008-05-15 14:41:11 <goodell> Don't abandon the market --> is it that the role of market as a filtering and selection process might be lost?
2008-05-15 14:41:24 <ahoward_> and I thought the Net was created for communications in the event of thermonuclear war
2008-05-15 14:41:31 <ahoward_> .com came later
2008-05-15 14:41:43 <bob___> .arpa? .nato? .mil?
2008-05-15 14:41:45 <Chilmark> much later
2008-05-15 14:41:46 <jessamyn> http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~pollack/
2008-05-15 14:41:55 <EricaG> @pds True enough. But it's more interesting when a corporate rep can respond in context rather than having to default to a set of responses we all already know
2008-05-15 14:42:02 <Chilmark> still can recall the first commercial site & spam
2008-05-15 14:42:07 <Chilmark> what a stir that created
2008-05-15 14:42:18 <andyontheroad> anyone else find it strange that he keeps lauding YouTube, when he wrote this last year? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032301451.html
2008-05-15 14:42:30 <bob___> the Internet came into being on Arpanet. But that was just where it caught hold. it existed in transient states before then.
2008-05-15 14:42:36 <daithi> @andy: that's politics ;)
2008-05-15 14:42:43 <pde_was_stolen> EricaG yes but it's dangerous for him to do so. Pretty much anything he says could be used against him
2008-05-15 14:42:47 <ahoward_> he isn't just a rep, tho. not a spokesman/pr flack. he's general counsel / EVP = policy maker
2008-05-15 14:42:59 <bway> It is curious that the copyright industry's goal is to add inconvenience to an otherwise over-efficient technical system.
2008-05-15 14:43:10 <andyontheroad> @daithi i know, i still have ideals.
2008-05-15 14:43:23 <daithi> indeed
2008-05-15 14:43:24 <pde_was_stolen> EricaG: http://www.google.com/search?q=viacom+youtube
2008-05-15 14:43:25 <bob___> fidonet, uucp, x.25, ax.25, bbs networks, etc
2008-05-15 14:44:12 <EricaG> I guess the kind of conversation I'd be interested in from him would need to be closed-door or chatham-house rules so he could speak/think freely.
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2008-05-15 14:44:12 <Frank_Paynter> Tymnet, PT&Ts X.35 gateways
2008-05-15 14:44:12 <sc1olist> later all
2008-05-15 14:44:15 <sc1olist> beer time bob
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2008-05-15 14:44:29 <daithi> Colin's on his feet, for logistics.
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2008-05-15 14:44:36 <wseltzer> wrapping
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2008-05-15 14:44:41 <pde_was_stolen> EricaG: you'll have to catch him at drinks for that
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2008-05-15 14:44:45 <ahoward_> take care all
2008-05-15 14:44:46 <daithi> Colin rapping, that would be good.
2008-05-15 14:44:53 <ahoward_> beer o'clock
2008-05-15 14:44:58 <bob___> it is beer time? OK time to go hop the bus
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2008-05-15 14:45:10 <ahoward_> cocktail thirty
2008-05-15 14:45:19 <ThomasKriese> buh bye
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2008-05-15 14:45:34 <bob___> precisely where is the booze?
2008-05-15 14:45:35 <wseltzer> see you tomorrow
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2008-05-15 14:45:39 <wseltzer> RopesGray
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2008-05-15 14:46:14 <daithi> over and out
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2008-05-15 18:11:24 <bob___> anyone still here?
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