July 22 2009 Conference Call

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Conference Call Notes

Drafted by Joe Andrieu, July 21, 2009


#vrm at chat.freenode.net

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Category:conference call


  • Joe Andrieu
  • Dean Landsman
  • Doc Searls
  • Charles Andres
  • Judi Clark
  • Iain Henderson
  • Chris Carfi
  • Allan Gregory
  • Keith Hopper


Nick Givotovsky

Nick had a few initiatives underway and we've been discussing how to keep his efforts moving forward.

Doc has been talking with Brett McDowell to coordinate something.

Nick had an idea... that when data about oneself is collected... and is copyrightable by an individual, and is shared under a copyright regime. Brett wanted to probe Berkman in carrying that forward. Brett asked if the idea passed the law school sniff test.

Iain mentions that this has been explored a bit in the UDVPI group. And that database rights is a clearer regime than copyright. Joe mentions that not all jurisdictions support database rights, largely because its much newer than copyright. There's a consensus that this would be a good area to explore for VRM.

One initial tasks is working through Nick's papers to see if there's something that could form the foundation of an effort. Dean is going to be meeting with some of the family to discuss the options. It is early and we want to be sensitive. As Brett says, there's no rush. But if we could support what Nick wanted wrt privacy and copyright, that would be a cool thing.

Judi mentions that we risk losing access to online information as TOSes typically freeze access upon death. So, we may lose vital information if we don't move quickly, at least in that sphere.

Dean is willing to be a point of contact for this.



Two days in October. Dean had been pushing for Sunday/Monday.

We had suggested the 14/15 W/TH Doc's busy on the 15th. So, we are agreed that Tuesday, Wednesday 13th and 14th of.


IIW. Dean likes Sunday the 1st rather than Monday the 2nd. IIW is the 3rd, 4th, 5th.

As we discussed a schedule of a "full workshop" in October in Boston, a light meeting near IIW, and spring "full workshop" in Jan/Feb on the West coast.

We agreed that it makes sense to make the IIW a "leadership" meeting, open to anyone who is willing to step up as leadership. So, slightly larger than steering committee group, but self-selecting to keep the focus on moving the movement forward rather than introducing and engaging new people.


There's a lot of good activity. The NPR tuner 2.0 is out and for the first time, you can search for programs rather than just stations.

Along this same radio vector, Doc recently had a conversation with Bill Goldsmith of Radio Paradise. There is a lot going on with the online radio deals in the US between "pure play" online audio services and "Sound Exchange". We've done markups and talked using Radio Paradise as an example... well Bill is willing to be a part of that.

Sound Exchange is basically a legal arm of the RIAA travelling as a royalty collection group. And doing a bad job at it, because they are unaccountable and act like it. So there is very little incentive for the artist to cooperate with Sound Exchange, because it is so little a functioning organization. It turns out that artists can opt-out of Sound Exchange and take direct payment. Radio Paradise sees this as a great opportunity to work around the Sound Exchange mess by building a bridge directly between listeners and artists.

Keith points out that a third party entity, that is separate from the NPR political quagmire, may be a good choice for handling anything around $$$ moving around.

Apple has increasingly severe restrictions around "donations" through the iPhone. You can't call it donations.

Latest on ListenLog: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-19512_7-10292870-233.html?tag=rtcol;relnews

Of course, within the audio, you can select donations. But you can't do it in the app. Also, you can only have in-app upsales in for-fee applications. Free applications can't charge on demand within their app.

Joe mentions that for Emancipay, the general case isn't necessarily a donation. If one is directly supporting an artist, that is most likely not a deductible donation.

Doc says Emancipay will not have a payment mechanism, but it will actuate them... linking to Paypal, Visa, etc.

Some of these things are not allowed... for example you may make a payment and hold it in escrow.

Emancipay is a decision tree about who you want to pay, how much, when, and it what way. It can include pledging and payment.

Judi mentions this is broader than just money. There are lots of way to assign value to another person. Emancipay is a way of recording intent. Other mechanisms can go get that value.

Doc reminds us that Apple had the iPhone out there for 6 months before you could even put an app on it. The current policies are not likely to be set in stone.


Chris mentions that it is looking good. Still waiting to hear from the approval process. A bit of back & forth. Last submission was 7/10. And it is supposedly being "expedited", but it is typically 3-4 weeks to get approved.

Once it gets released, the next thing is dealing with sharing/deployment.

Joe says "RDF".

Chris says, "with attachments?"

Joe: yep, we are doing that.

Chris & Joe will talk soon to figure that out. Iain chimes in and will join the conversation.


Allan & Doc will be commandeering a fellows meeting to bring up "Chilling effects verses Internet radio".

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