9 June 2000. Thanks to Anonymous.



                                UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                               SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

              6   STUDIOS, INC., TRISTAR PICTURES, INC.,   )
                  COLUMBIA PICTURES INDUSTRIES, INC.,      )
              7   TIME WARNER ENTERTAINMENT CO., L.P.,     )
                  DISNEY ENTERPRISES, INC., and TWENTIETH  )
              8   CENTURY FOX FILM CORPORATION,            )
                                                           )  Civ. No.
              9                        Plaintiffs,         )  0277 (LAK)
             10                 vs.                        )
             11   ERIC CORLEY a/k/a "EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN"   )
                  and 2600 ENTERPRISES, INC.,              )
             12                                            )
                                       Defendants.         )
             13   -----------------------------------------)

             14                                   May 15, 2000

             15                                   10:25 a.m.


             17                  DEPOSITION of ROBERT W. SCHUMANN,

             18           held at the offices of Frankfurt Garbus

             19           Klein & Selz, P.C., 488 Madison Avenue, New

             20           York, New York, pursuant to Subpoena and

             21           Notice, before ELIZABETH SANTAMARIA, a

             22           Notary Public of the State of New York.


             24   Reported by:
                  ELIZABETH SANTAMARIA
             25   JOB NO. 05150SCH

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING



              2   A p p e a r a n c e s :


              4           PROSKAUER ROSE LLP

              5           Attorneys for Plaintiffs

              6                  1585 Broadway

              7                  New York, New York 10036-8299

              8           BY:    LEON P. GOLD, ESQ.

              9                       - and -

             10                  WILLIAM M. HART, ESQ. (a.m only)


             12           FRANKFURT GARBUS KLEIN & SELZ, P.C.

             13           Attorneys for Defendants

             14                  488 Madison Avenue

             15                  New York, New York 10022

             16           BY:    MARTIN GARBUS, ESQ.

             17                        - and -

             18                  EDWARD HERNSTADT, ESQ.

                          ALSO PRESENT:
                                 Motion Picture Association
             21                  Mark D. Litvack, Esq.
                                 In-house Counsel



                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING



              2                         --o0o--


              4                 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by

              5           and between the attorneys for the

              6           respective parties herein that filing and

              7           sealing be and the same are hereby waived.

              8                 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED

              9           that all objections, except as to the form

             10           of the question, shall be reserved to the

             11           time of the trial.

             12                 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED

             13           that the within deposition may be sworn to

             14           and signed before any officer authorized to

             15           administer an oath, with the same force and

             16           effect as if signed and sworn to before the

             17           Court.

             18                         --oOo--








                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   R O B E R T   W.    S C H U M A N N, called as a

              3           witness, having been duly sworn by the

              4           Notary Public, was examined and testified

              5           as follows:

              6   EXAMINATION BY

              7   MR. GARBUS:

              8           Q.     CONFIDENTIAL

              9   CONFIDENTIAL

             10           A.     CONFIDENTIAL

             11           Q.     CONFIDENTIAL

             12           A.     CONFIDENTIAL

             13   CONFIDENTIAL

             14                  MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, I would

             15           like to propose that we stipulate that

             16           this deposition is taken pursuant to the

             17           Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and

             18           related Federal law.  Is that okay with

             19           you?

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  Absolutely.

             21                  MR. GOLD:  I also want to note

             22           that the witness appears here today

             23           pursuant to a Subpoena served on the MPAA

             24           and a Notice of Deposition served on all

             25           of the plaintiffs, that he is a

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           designated fact witness of the Motion

              3           Picture Association of America and a

              4           designated fact witness of all of the

              5           plaintiffs, except for Time Warner.

              6                  With respect to Time Warner or

              7           with respect to the Time Warner

              8           plaintiff, the court has ruled that at

              9           this stage you cannot take any

             10           discovery of that organization.  The

             11           designated areas were set out in a

             12           letter to you last week and they are

             13           the following subjects:

             14                  A, DVD, CCS and DeCSS, Linux,

             15           linking and hyperlinking, and the

             16           existence of other DVD decryption

             17           devices.

             18                  Those designations are the only

             19           appropriate area of testimony today.

             20                  Mr. Hart points out that there

             21           was another subject added by a

             22           supplementary designation, and the

             23           subject was injury to the plaintiffs.

             24                  MR. GARBUS:  I respect that as

             25           your position.  You know where we

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           disagree.

              3                  MR. GOLD:  No, but I don't think

              4           it is relevant.

              5           Q.     Mr. Schumann, when did you first

              6   learn about DeCSS?

              7           A.     Probably in, I don't know, September

              8   or October of last year.

              9           Q.     Did you ever hear of something

             10   called MORE?

             11           A.     Yes, I have.

             12           Q.     Have you read the affidavit of

             13   Mr. Stevenson before you came here today?

             14           A.     Frank Stevenson?

             15           Q.     Yes.

             16           A.     Yes.

             17           Q.     Do you know who Mr. Stevenson is?

             18           A.     Only from my analysis in this

             19   effort.

             20                  MR. GOLD:  I'm sorry to interrupt.

             21           I forgot to mention that the deposition

             22           today is subject to the confidentiality

             23           agreement we have all signed and I would

             24           like to agree to reserve my

             25           confidentiality stipulations until we get

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           a transcript.

              3                  MR. GARBUS:  What do you mean by

              4           that?

              5                  MR. GOLD:  I will designate what

              6           is confidential when I get the

              7           transcript.

              8                  MR. GARBUS:  I think if you have

              9           an objection now as to anything that is

             10           confidential, you should say.

             11                  MR. GOLD:  Well, I don't know what

             12           you are going to bring up.  In that

             13           event, since you don't want to agree to

             14           that, then I will designate the whole

             15           transcript as confidential.  However,

             16           when I get the transcript I will promptly

             17           get to you an amendment, if an amendment

             18           is called for.

             19                  MR. GARBUS:  I disagree that this

             20           deposition is confidential.

             21                  MR. GOLD:  Do you intend to not

             22           keep it confidential?  Because we may

             23           have to apply for an order.

             24                  MR. GARBUS:  We will deal with it

             25           at the appropriate time.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GOLD:  Do you want to agree

              3           that you will hold it confidential until

              4           we make a specific designation when we

              5           get the transcript?

              6                  MR. GARBUS:  It may well be that I

              7           am going to go through questions now that

              8           have nothing to do with confidentiality.

              9                  MR. GOLD:  It may be.

             10                  MR. GARBUS:  If that is so, then

             11           we don't get into any disagreement about

             12           confidentiality.

             13                  MR. GOLD:  That's not good enough,

             14           because, among other things, I don't want

             15           to wake up and see this transcript in the

             16           newspaper tomorrow, and I have reasons to

             17           believe that that is a possibility, but I

             18           won't get into that thoroughly.

             19                  In light of this discussion, I

             20           have designated the entire transcript

             21           as confidential.

             22   RL             MR. GARBUS:  Needless to say, I

             23           object to it.  Needless to say, we will get

             24           a ruling on it.

             25   BY MR. GARBUS:

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Going back now to Masters of Reverse

              3   Engineering or MORE, when for the first time did

              4   you hear that?

              5           A.     Would have been probably November of

              6   1999.

              7           Q.     Did you also read the affidavit of

              8   Chris DiBona in this case?

              9           A.     I believe I did, yes.

             10           Q.     Did you receive the affidavit of

             11   Robin Gross in this case?

             12           A.     Yes, I did.

             13           Q.     You saw the statement in her

             14   affidavit that Mr. Carl Geckner had said, as far as

             15   he knew, as far as ten days ago, there was no

             16   piracy resulting from DeCSS?  Did you see that?

             17           A.     I saw that statement, yes.

             18           Q.     Do you know that to be true?

             19           A.     No, I don't.

             20           Q.     You don't know one way or the other?

             21           A.     That's correct.

             22           Q.     So as of today you don't know

             23   whether or not there has been any piracy or not

             24   with respect to DeCSS?

             25           A.     That's accurate.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Getting back to Mr. Stevenson, when

              3   for the first time did you see his affidavit?

              4           A.     His affidavit?

              5           Q.     Yes.

              6           A.     The one, I don't know, dated a

              7   couple of weeks ago, I guess?

              8           Q.     Yes.

              9           A.     I would have seen it probably in the

             10   last five days.

             11           Q.     Did you sign an affidavit in this

             12   case?

             13           A.     Yes, I did.

             14           Q.     Did you sign two affidavits in this

             15   case?

             16           A.     I believe I did, yes.

             17           Q.     Did you review them before you came

             18   in here this morning?

             19           A.     Yes.

             20           Q.     Is everything that you said in those

             21   affidavits true?

             22           A.     To the best of my knowledge, yes.

             23           Q.     Is there anything that you want to

             24   change now before we go into a discussion of those

             25   affidavits?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     No.

              3           Q.     Are there any factors that you have

              4   learned since you signed those affidavits which

              5   make any of the allegations in the affidavits

              6   untrue?

              7           A.     Not to my knowledge.

              8           Q.     Going back to MORE, you say you

              9   first heard of them in November of 1999?

             10           A.     Would have been November or early

             11   December.

             12           Q.     Can you tell me what you heard about

             13   them?

             14           A.     Only what I saw -- what I saw about

             15   them in the development as journals, for lack of a

             16   better word, of the Linux Group and then obviously

             17   they were in the -- I must have seen them in

             18   various newspaper press articles.

             19           Q.     To your knowledge, was MORE or any

             20   members of MORE involved in the decrypting of

             21   DeCSS?

             22           A.     Can you define "decrypting"?

             23                  MR. GARBUS:  Withdraw the

             24           question.

             25   BY MR. GARBUS:

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     To your knowledge, was John Johansen

              3   involved in any way with MORE?

              4           A.     I believe he stated he was.

              5           Q.     Can you tell me what your

              6   recollection is of what he stated?

              7           A.     I believe he stated he was a member

              8   of MORE in various forms.

              9           Q.     Do you know what MORE does or what

             10   it claims to do?

             11           A.     All I know is their name stands for

             12   Masters of Reverse Engineering and they claim to

             13   have created DeCSS.

             14           Q.     Do you know that they claim to have

             15   been working on developing an open source Linux DVD

             16   player?

             17                  MR. GOLD:  What is the question?

             18           Read the question back, please.

             19           A.     I am not aware of any such claim.

             20           Q.     You don't know one way or another?

             21           A.     No.  I said I was -- I am not aware

             22   of any such claim.

             23           Q.     What is CSS-auth?

             24           A.     It is in reference to a particular

             25   program?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Yes.

              3           A.     To my knowledge, it is a piece of

              4   code for the Linux environment.

              5           Q.     Is it a program?

              6           A.     Yes, it is.

              7           Q.     Do you know who wrote it?

              8           A.     It was, I believe, written by Derek

              9   Fawcus.

             10           Q.     Who is Derek Fawcus?

             11           A.     He was a member -- in my dealings

             12   with that name, I don't know who he really is.

             13   That's a name that was used.  He was a member of

             14   the DVD Development Group.

             15           Q.     Do you know what the Livid Group is?

             16           A.     Yes, I am aware of that name.

             17           Q.     What is the Livid Group?

             18           A.     It is a group of Linus developers

             19   who are in the process of -- I assume they are

             20   still doing it, developing a DVD player for Linux.

             21           Q.     When did they start to do that?

             22           A.     I don't know exactly when they

             23   started.

             24           Q.     Approximately.

             25           A.     I guess early 1999, but I don't know

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   the exact date.

              3           Q.     Do you know who are the members of

              4   the Livid Group?

              5           A.     I knew some of them at the time I

              6   reviewed materials, but I certainly don't claim to

              7   know all the members.

              8           Q.     At the time you reviewed the

              9   materials, can you tell me who some of the members

             10   were?

             11           A.     I believe there was Derek Fawcus was

             12   a member of that group, I believe Matt Pavlovich or

             13   something like that, and there are a host of

             14   others.

             15           Q.     Do you know anything about Derek

             16   Fawcus's academic background?

             17           A.     No knowledge of that.

             18           Q.     How about Matt Pavlovich.

             19           A.     Only from, I believe, he gave a

             20   deposition in this case.  Not a deposition.  I mean

             21   an affidavit in this case, and he said he had been

             22   to school -- been to college for four years.

             23           Q.     Did you ever have any dealings with

             24   him?

             25           A.     No.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     After you heard that the Livid Group

              3   was developing a DVD program in early 1999, did you

              4   hear anything further about it?

              5           A.     I did not know -- I did not know of

              6   their existence in early 1999.

              7           Q.     When did you first learn of their

              8   existence?

              9           A.     In November-December of 1999.

             10           Q.     Do you know what they have done

             11   since with respect to the attempt to develop such a

             12   program?

             13           A.     I have not followed the development

             14   efforts.

             15           Q.     Do you know anything at all about

             16   those developments from November to the present

             17   day?

             18           A.     Only through what I have read in the

             19   affidavits.

             20                  MR. GOLD:  By the way, it being

             21           Monday morning, I wasn't strong at

             22           remembering everything I wanted to say

             23           right away, but I gather that we have

             24           agreed that objections to specific

             25           questions are reserved.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GARBUS:  Why wouldn't you make

              3           your objections now?

              4                  MR. GOLD:  I would rather reserve

              5           them until the time of trial, which is

              6           what everybody usually does.

              7                  MR. GARBUS:  I think you reserve

              8           objections as to substance, but not

              9           objections as to form.  I thought that

             10           was the understanding.  So that if there

             11           is an objection as to form --

             12                  MR. GOLD:  That will not be

             13           reserved.

             14                  MR. GARBUS:  Right.

             15                  MR. GOLD:  Every other objection

             16           will be reserved, if you agree to that.

             17                  MR. GARBUS:  If you agree to that

             18           for your examination of my people.

             19                  MR. GOLD:  Sure.

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  Good.  Can I have the

             21           last question, please.

             22                  (Record read.)

             23   BY MR. GARBUS:

             24           Q.     Do you know anything about the

             25   development of CSS-auth, when it was first done?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I don't fully understand your

              3   question.

              4           Q.     CSS-auth we have agreed is a Linux

              5   BSD program written by the Livid Group?

              6           A.     It is a Linux program written by

              7   Derek Fawcus.

              8           Q.     Do you know when it was written?

              9           A.     I believe, if recollections are

             10   correct, it was written in June or July of 1999.

             11           Q.     What is its function?

             12           A.     Its function is to unlock a DVD

             13   drive.

             14           Q.     Have you ever tried to use CSS-auth?

             15           A.     No, I have not used CSS-auth.

             16           Q.     Do you know whether it performs the

             17   function that you just stated it did?

             18           A.     Based on the reports, it appears --

             19                  MR. GOLD:  I am going to object to

             20           the form of that question.  If you would

             21           like to restate it.

             22                  MR. GARBUS:  What was the

             23           question?

             24                  (Record read.)

             25                  MR. GARBUS:  You object to the

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           form?

              3                  MR. GOLD:  Yes.

              4   BY MR. GARBUS:

              5           Q.     Does the CSS-auth perform the

              6   authorization to the DVD drive enabling the results

              7   of a hidden block of data?

              8           A.     I'm sorry.  The end of that question

              9   was enabling --

             10           Q.     The reading of a hidden block of

             11   data.

             12                  MR. GOLD:  Maybe we can read the

             13           whole question back, please.

             14                  (Record read.)

             15           Q.     Enabling the reading of a hidden

             16   block of data.

             17           A.     I believe it might.

             18           Q.     What is CSS-cat?

             19           A.     I don't exactly know what that is.

             20           Q.     When you say you don't exactly know,

             21   do you have any idea what it is?

             22           A.     I can only presume from its name.

             23           Q.     What is your presumption?

             24           A.     It is a --

             25                  MR. GOLD:  I am going to object to

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           the form.

              3           Q.     Go ahead.  What is your

              4   understanding of CSS-cat based on its name?

              5           A.     It is a mechanism for reading files.

              6           Q.     Do you know who developed CSS-cat?

              7           A.     I do not.

              8           Q.     Do you know whether or not it is a

              9   Linux BSD program?

             10           A.     Can you describe Linux BSD?

             11           Q.     You previously said that CSS-auth

             12   was a Linux BSD program.

             13           A.     I belief I said CSS-auth was a Linux

             14   program.

             15           Q.     Is CSS-cat a Linux program?

             16           A.     I believe it is.

             17           Q.     Do you know who developed it?

             18           A.     I do not.

             19           Q.     Was it developed by the Livid Group?

             20           A.     It may have been.  I have no

             21   detailed knowledge.

             22           Q.     Was it developed by Mr. Fawcus?

             23           A.     I do not know.

             24           Q.     Can you tell me something about your

             25   educational background?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     Sure.

              3           Q.     Go ahead.  Where did you go to

              4   college?

              5           A.     Rochester Institute of Technology.

              6           Q.     When did you finish?

              7           A.     1985.

              8           Q.     What degree did you get?

              9           A.     Bachelor's.

             10           Q.     Did you get any subsequent

             11   education?

             12           A.     I did not.  No degree.

             13           Q.     Do you know what Linux is?

             14           A.     I assume so, yes.

             15           Q.     You assume you know?

             16           A.     As much as anybody knows what Linux

             17   is.

             18           Q.     Tell me what you understand Linux to

             19   be.

             20           A.     Linux is a variation of the UNIX

             21   operating system.

             22           Q.     Have you ever operated Linux?

             23           A.     Yes, I have.

             24           Q.     Do you know what the term "open

             25   source" means?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     Yes, I do.

              3           Q.     What does it mean?

              4           A.     It references a development style

              5   where the source code is openly made available to

              6   all developers.

              7           Q.     How did you learn about CSS-auth?

              8           A.     In my review of the development logs

              9   from the Linux Development Group.

             10           Q.     When was that?

             11           A.     Would have been November or December

             12   of 1999.

             13           Q.     Did you do any investigation as to

             14   the amount of use of CSS-auth?

             15           A.     In what sense?

             16           Q.     Were people using it, to your

             17   knowledge, in an attempt to replay DVDs?

             18           A.     Yes.

             19           Q.     Tell me how you came to that

             20   knowledge.  Merely from reading the Linux postings

             21   or through some other source of information?

             22           A.     Through the Linux postings.

             23           Q.     Did you ever speak to anyone who had

             24   done it?

             25           A.     No.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Today, so far as your own knowledge

              3   goes, other than what you read on the Linux

              4   postings, do you know if anyone had you ever used

              5   Linux CSS-auth to go into DVDs or play DVDs?

              6           A.     No.

              7           Q.     With respect to your affidavit,

              8   after you first learned of DeCSS, what did you then

              9   do?

             10                  MR. GOLD:  I object to the form of

             11           the question.

             12           Q.     Did you try and see whether DeCSS

             13   could decrypt the DVD?

             14           A.     Yes, I did.

             15           Q.     When did you do that?

             16           A.     It would have been the same,

             17   November-December time frame.

             18           Q.     Tell me exactly what you did, when

             19   you did it, and where you did it.

             20           A.     I would have done it in my office

             21   and I'm sure I downloaded DeCSS from a site.  I

             22   don't know exactly which one offhand.  And then I

             23   ran it against a -- on a Windows machine against

             24   the DVD drive.

             25           Q.     What happened?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     It showed me a very nice screen that

              3   asks me what files, what I wanted to copy from the

              4   DVD, and whether I wanted to merge the files

              5   together, and where on my computer or the network

              6   attached to my computer I wanted to write the

              7   resultant file.

              8           Q.     Did you do that?

              9           A.     I did that, yes.

             10           Q.     How long did that take?

             11           A.     Not terribly long.

             12           Q.     Can you tell me what day this was?

             13           A.     I don't recall the exact date.

             14           Q.     When you say it's in your office,

             15   where is your office?

             16           A.     In Herndon, Virginia.

             17           Q.     Are there any records that indicate

             18   what you did on that date with respect to the

             19   DeCSS?

             20           A.     I doubt I would have written a

             21   detailed log, to that level of detail.

             22           Q.     I presume there is information on

             23   your computer that would indicate what you did and

             24   when you did it with respect to DeCSS; is that

             25   right?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     If there is still a copy of DeCSS on

              3   my computer, it might show the data I downloaded.

              4           Q.     Do you know if there is a copy of

              5   DeCSS on your computer?

              6           A.     There quite possibly is.

              7           Q.     Isn't DeCSS designed to send the

              8   material to a permanent computer file or a

              9   computer's hard drive?

             10           A.     That is the function that it

             11   performs, yes.

             12           Q.     So wouldn't you have that hard

             13   drive?

             14           A.     Certainly.

             15           Q.     Where would that hard drive be?

             16           A.     It would be in a computer in my

             17   office.

             18                  MR. GARBUS:  Will you produce

             19           that?

             20                  MR. GOLD:  The entire computer in

             21           his office?

             22                  MR. GARBUS:  The hard drive.

             23                  MR. GOLD:  You want the whole hard

             24           drive?

             25                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GOLD:  I object to that as

              3           irrelevant.

              4   BY MR. GARBUS:

              5           Q.     After you stored it on the hard

              6   drive, then what did you do?

              7           A.     Then I presume I -- it may have been

              8   zipped or compressed, so it downloaded faster.  I

              9   would presume it would have decompressed and I

             10   would have executed the program.  What I did with

             11   the movie after --

             12           Q.     When you say it was zipped or

             13   compressed, tell me the kind of computer you were

             14   using to download the --

             15           A.     It was a Windows machine.  I think

             16   it was a Windows NT machine.

             17           Q.     You say it was zipped or compressed.

             18   Can you tell me what that means?

             19           A.     It means that the executable file

             20   was compressed, which is standard technique used in

             21   the industry.

             22           Q.     Was this done on your machine also?

             23           A.     The compression?

             24           Q.     Yes.

             25           A.     No.

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              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Where was that done?

              3           A.     I don't know where it was done.

              4           Q.     Well, tell me how you had it

              5   compressed.

              6           A.     I didn't compress it.  I received

              7   it -- I would have received it, I believe,

              8   compressed.  I don't remember the details.  It's a

              9   standard technique, however.

             10           Q.     And then after you received it

             11   compressed, what was then done?

             12           A.     I would have decompressed it or

             13   perhaps it decompressed itself.  I don't remember

             14   the details.  And then it installed itself.

             15           Q.     Did there come a time when you used

             16   DeCSS?

             17           A.     I used DeCSS to test the -- to test

             18   that it decrypted, yes.

             19           Q.     And you found that it did?

             20           A.     It appeared to have, yes.

             21           Q.     Did you then try and decrypt the

             22   DVD?

             23           A.     That's what I would have done with

             24   DeCSS.

             25           Q.     Did you ever try and see the movie,

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   a particular DVD movie using DeCSS?

              3           A.     I did not, no.

              4           Q.     To your knowledge, has anyone ever

              5   done that?

              6           A.     Yes.

              7           Q.     Who?

              8           A.     I believe some of the defendant

              9   affidavits referenced that.

             10           Q.     To your knowledge, has other than

             11   the defendants affidavits, prior to your seeing

             12   those affidavits, did you know of one instance

             13   where somebody used DeCSS to watch a DVD movie?

             14                  MR. GOLD:  If your knowledge

             15           resulted from any conversation with an

             16           attorney or any conversation with the

             17           plaintiffs after this suit was commenced,

             18           I wouldn't answer the question.

             19           Otherwise, I would answer.

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead.

             21           A.     Based on that, I think I will need

             22   to refuse --

             23                  MR. GOLD:  In response to that

             24           question, I am objecting on the

             25           attorney-client privilege and the work

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              1                         Schumann

              2           product privilege.

              3           Q.     Prior to January 14th, which is when

              4   the suit started, had you ever heard of anyone

              5   watching a DVD movie, having had access to the DVD

              6   movie through DeCSS?

              7           A.     Yes.

              8           Q.     Who was that?

              9           A.     I don't remember the exact names,

             10   but there are a variety of descriptions in the

             11   Linux development logs of people who had using

             12   DeCSS then proceeded to watch the movie.

             13           Q.     Other than the Linux logs, have you

             14   ever heard of anyone using DeCSS to observe or

             15   watch a DVD?

             16           A.     Prior to January 14th, no.

             17           Q.     You annexed some of those logs, did

             18   you not, to your affidavit in this case?

             19           A.     I believe, yes, that's true.

             20           Q.     Now, you took those documents that

             21   you annexed from your affidavit to your affidavit,

             22   I presume, out of lengthier logs that you had.

             23                  In other words, you selected which

             24   documents reflected the use of DeCSS to watch DVDs;

             25   is that right?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GOLD:  Do you understand the

              3           question?

              4                  THE WITNESS:  I understand part of

              5           the question.

              6                  MR. GOLD:  Let's have the question

              7           read back.

              8                  Actually, I am going to object

              9           to the form of this.  Do you want to

             10           restate it?

             11                  MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, will you

             12           produce those logs?

             13                  MR. GOLD:  Which logs?

             14   RQ             MR. GARBUS:  The logs that your

             15           witness just referred to.  Namely, he

             16           referred in his Exhibit, Exhibit B of his

             17           affidavit, to photostatic copies of

             18           documents entitled "Linux DVD Re: Linux DVD

             19           posting."

             20                  As I understand it, he had logs

             21           of the Linux DVD postings.  I am asking

             22           him to produce those logs.

             23                  MR. GOLD:  I object to the form of

             24           the question and I don't -- I think you

             25           are misrepresenting the witness'

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              1                         Schumann

              2           testimony also.

              3                  By misrepresenting it, I just

              4           mean that your question doesn't conform

              5           to the prior testimony.  I'm not yet

              6           suggesting a willful act.

              7                  MR. GARBUS:  Please mark this as

              8           Defendants' 1.

              9                  (Defendants' Exhibit 1, Mr. Robert

             10           W. Schumann's Declaration, dated January

             11           19, 2000, marked for identification, as of

             12           this date.)

             13   BY MR. GARBUS:

             14           Q.     Mr. Schumann, I hand you what has

             15   been marked as Defendants' Exhibit 1, your

             16   affidavit dated January 19, 2000, along with a copy

             17   of the exhibits that were submitted with the

             18   affidavit, and I direct your attention to Exhibit B

             19   of the affidavit, which is referred to at Paragraph

             20   11 of your affidavit.

             21                  I ask you, when did you first see

             22   these documents?

             23           A.     These documents?

             24           Q.     Yes.

             25           A.     I would have first seen them in

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   October or November.

              3           Q.     At 11 of your affidavit on Page 4

              4   you say, "I attached as Exhibits B and C true

              5   copies of pertinent pages from relevant internet

              6   groups."

              7                  How did you decide which pages were

              8   pertinent and which pages were not pertinent?  What

              9   were you looking for?

             10           A.     I was looking for pages that were

             11   pertinent to the text of my affidavit.

             12           Q.     In other words, you were looking for

             13   pages that indicated that there was some usage by

             14   people who posted on that particular website of

             15   DeCSS to get into a DVD?

             16           A.     I don't believe that that was the

             17   particular purpose of those selections.

             18           Q.     What was the purpose of those

             19   selections?

             20           A.     To define and illustrate the text of

             21   the affidavit.

             22           Q.     You say, "that were downloaded from

             23   the internet and examined by me and certain of my

             24   colleagues under my supervision."

             25                  Who were those other colleagues?

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              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     Would have been Richard Whittemore.

              3           Q.     Do you have training in

              4   cryptography?

              5           A.     Not in cryptography per se, no.

              6           Q.     Did you ever take any courses in

              7   cryptography?

              8           A.     Not particular to cryptography, no.

              9           Q.     Have you ever taught at any

             10   university?

             11           A.     I have not.

             12           Q.     Have you ever written any articles

             13   that have been published in academic journals?

             14           A.     I have not.

             15           Q.     Have you written any articles that

             16   have been published anywhere?

             17           A.     I have not.

             18           Q.     Have you ever been invited to speak

             19   at any university on any matter?

             20           A.     I have not.

             21           Q.     Have you ever heard of the name

             22   Mr. Stevenson before you first read his affidavit?

             23           A.     Frank Stevenson?

             24           Q.     Yes.

             25           A.     Yes, I had.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     In what context?

              3           A.     My review of looking through the

              4   Linux development logs.

              5           Q.     Tell me what you saw there.

              6           A.     He published a paper that reviewed

              7   CSS.

              8           Q.     Did you take down a copy of that

              9   when you did your exercise in downloading relevant

             10   documents from Linux DVD?

             11           A.     Did I download his paper?

             12           Q.     Yes.

             13           A.     Yes, I downloaded his paper.

             14           Q.     What else did you download from that

             15   that you did not include in that affidavit?

             16           A.     I downloaded a -- I didn't download.

             17   There is a large amount of Linux DVD development, I

             18   guess, history that you looked through.

             19           Q.     You chose not to put that into your

             20   affidavit?

             21           A.     It is three inches of paper.

             22   RQ             MR. GARBUS:  I ask that that be

             23           produced.

             24                  MR. GOLD:  I will take it under

             25           advisement.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Can you remember what other

              3   documents you downloaded?  You saw Mr. Stevenson's

              4   information.  Did you see any information from

              5   Mr. Pavlovich?

              6           A.     Yes.  He was a frequent contributor.

              7           Q.     Do you know anything about his

              8   background?

              9           A.     Only what I referenced earlier.

             10           Q.     Had you heard of him prior to your

             11   looking at these Linux postings?

             12           A.     No.

             13           Q.     Do you know Chris DiBona?

             14           A.     No.

             15           Q.     Had you ever heard of him prior to

             16   your involvement in this case?

             17           A.     No.

             18           Q.     As Exhibit C to your affidavit, you

             19   have some documents which are entitled "Livid-DEV."

             20   You have distinguished that from Exhibit B.  Can

             21   you tell me what the difference is?

             22                  MR. GOLD:  I don't know what you

             23           mean by distinguished.  You mean that

             24           this is not in Exhibit B?  Is that what

             25           you mean.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.  He made a

              3           distinction between Exhibit B and Exhibit

              4           C.

              5           Q.     What is the distinction?  Why are

              6   documents put behind a certain set of exhibits and

              7   the other documents put behind a different set of

              8   exhibits?  What is the distinction?  If you

              9   understand it.

             10                  MR. GOLD:  I object to the form of

             11           the question, but I believe that what

             12           Marty is asking is:  Do you know why the

             13           pieces of paper in Exhibit C weren't put

             14           in Exhibit B?  I think that's his

             15           question.

             16                  Is that right?

             17                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

             18           Q.     Do they come from a different source

             19   or do they come from the same source?

             20           A.     Well, in reviewing them and not -- I

             21   would have to look in detail.  I mean I don't

             22   recall a specific reason that I broke them up as I

             23   did, but they appear -- the primary parts of B

             24   appear to come from a group called Linux DVD and

             25   the bulk of what is in C appears to come from a

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   different development group.  Namely, Livid-DEV.

              3           Q.     With respect to Livid-DEV, did you

              4   also download other documents than these two pages

              5   that you have annexed hereto as Exhibit B?

              6                  MR. GOLD:  You mean that same day

              7           did he download any other --

              8                  MR. GARBUS:  That same day or any

              9           other day.

             10                  MR. GOLD:  Relating to what?

             11                  MR. GARBUS:  Relating to his

             12           investigation into how DeCSS was being

             13           used.

             14           A.     I did not download any other

             15   information from Linux-DVD.

             16           Q.     Only those --

             17           A.     But I reviewed many other pages of

             18   the Livid-DEV development --

             19           Q.     How many pages?

             20           A.     -- groups.

             21           Q.     How many pages, to the best of your

             22   recollection?

             23           A.     I'm sorry.  My earlier answer, the 2

             24   to 3 inches of paper includes both.

             25           Q.     In other words, everything that you

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   reviewed you printed out?

              3           A.     That's correct.  I reviewed a

              4   printout.

              5           Q.     So that you did not see anything

              6   other than what was in that 3 and a half inches of

              7   papers relating to either the Livid Development

              8   Group or the Linux DVD group?

              9                  MR. GOLD:  I object to the form.

             10           A.     I may have looked occasionally at

             11   some references, but nothing of major significance.

             12           Q.     We are saying this was done at

             13   sometime in November or December in your office in

             14   Virginia?

             15           A.     Late November, early December, yes.

             16           Q.     Since then, have you looked at

             17   either of these sites?

             18                  MR. GOLD:  I object to the

             19           question on the grounds of

             20           attorney-client privilege and work

             21           product privilege.

             22           A.     (No response.)

             23           Q.     From the time you first saw it until

             24   January 14th, the date this lawsuit was instituted,

             25   did you look at either of those sites again?

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              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     Not to my recollection.

              3   RL      Q.     To your recollection, have you

              4   looked at those sites since January 14th?

              5   DI             MR. GOLD:  Same objection I made

              6           before.

              7           A.     (No response.)

              8                  MR. GARBUS:  So it is your

              9           position that all the questions I would

             10           have after January 14th of this witness

             11           are subject to the attorney-client

             12           privilege?

             13                  MR. GOLD:  I don't know.  I don't

             14           think I could answer that question now.

             15           I don't know what you are going to ask.

             16   BY MR. GARBUS:

             17           Q.     After you downloaded all this

             18   information in November or December of 1999, the

             19   Linux postings, what did you do with it?

             20                  MR. GOLD:  I am going to object to

             21           that, but maybe first you want to break

             22           that up as to time.

             23                  MR. GARBUS:  He is saying November

             24           or December.

             25                  MR. GOLD:  Oh, in November and

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           December?

              3                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

              4                  MR. GOLD:  Read me the last

              5           question back, please.

              6                  (Record read.)

              7                  MR. GOLD:  That means what did you

              8           do with it in November or December.  I

              9           think that's what he is saying.  In those

             10           two months.

             11           A.     After I -- or as I reviewed the

             12   downloaded materials, after I finished reviewing

             13   them, I did nothing with the downloaded materials.

             14           Q.     Did you download the materials the

             15   same day that you downloaded the DeCSS?

             16           A.     No.

             17           Q.     What was the difference in time, if

             18   you remember, between the time you downloaded the

             19   DeCSS and you downloaded the materials?

             20           A.     It was infinite.

             21           Q.     Did you do it the same day?

             22           A.     No.

             23           Q.     Which did you do first, to the best

             24   of your recollection?

             25           A.     I'm sorry.  I did not download the

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   materials I reviewed that is attached here.  I did

              3   not do the downloading.  I reviewed downloaded

              4   materials, which is what I said in my affidavits,

              5   but I did not, myself, download these materials.

              6           Q.     Your colleagues did?

              7           A.     They did not.

              8           Q.     Who did?

              9           A.     My client did.

             10           Q.     Which client?

             11           A.     That would have been MPAA.

             12   RL      Q.     The client asked you to download the

             13   materials when?

             14   DI             MR. GOLD:  I am going to object to

             15           the question as work product and

             16           attorney-client privilege.

             17   RL      Q.     Did you review the materials that

             18   the MPAA asked you to review after or before you

             19   first learned of the existence of DeCSS?

             20                  MR. GOLD:  Same objection.  If you

             21           want to limit it to before the lawsuit, I

             22           guess you can.

             23                  MR. GARBUS:  He is talking

             24           about --

             25                  MR. GOLD:  Your question wasn't

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           related to before the lawsuit.

              3           Q.     Did you at any time prior to the

              4   lawsuit review the documents that are referred to

              5   in Exhibits B and C?

              6           A.     Yes.

              7           Q.     When did you review those?

              8           A.     Late November, early December.

              9           Q.     Do you remember whether or not you

             10   reviewed those documents before or after you first

             11   learned of the existence of DeCSS?

             12           A.     Probably prior.

             13           Q.     When you say your client MPAA, how

             14   long have they been your client?

             15           A.     I was hired by them to perform this

             16   review.

             17           Q.     When was that?

             18           A.     Late November.

             19           Q.     Prior to that, had you ever been

             20   involved with the MPAA?

             21           A.     Not directly, no.

             22           Q.     Are you now a consultant for them on

             23   this particular job?

             24           A.     I was a consultant for them on --

             25   for that review.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Are you doing any other work for

              3   them?

              4           A.     Not at this time.

              5           Q.     Directing your attention to

              6   Paragraph 2, the first sentence of your affidavit,

              7   it says, and you can read the sentence, "The DeCSS

              8   utility serves one function only.  To decrypt CSS

              9   protected cipher text, including that embodied in

             10   the DVD disk containing plaintiffs' motion pictures

             11   and to copy and store the resulting unencrypted

             12   audio-visual data in one or more computer files."

             13                  Is that an accurate statement?

             14           A.     To the best of my knowledge, yes.

             15           Q.     Does the DeCSS serve any other

             16   function?

             17           A.     The DeCSS utility?

             18           Q.     Yes.

             19           A.     No.

             20           Q.     Can you, through the DeCSS utility

             21   ultimately play the DVD or is its only function to

             22   copy and store?

             23           A.     Its only function is to copy and

             24   store.

             25           Q.     Have you had any conversations with

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   Mr. Valenti?

              3           A.     I have not.  I presume you mean

              4   Mr. Valenti of the MPAA.

              5           Q.     Yes.

              6           A.     No, I have not.

              7           Q.     Have you ever been retained by

              8   Columbia Pictures, Disney Enterprises,

              9   Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, or Universal City Studios to

             10   do any work on their behalf?

             11           A.     No.

             12           Q.     Do you know any of the employees of

             13   those companies?

             14           A.     I do.

             15           Q.     Do you know, have any of the

             16   employees of those companies ever told you that

             17   they have ever watched a DVD that has been

             18   decrypted with DeCSS?

             19           A.     Have they ever watched a DVD that

             20   has been decrypted with DeCSS?

             21           Q.     Yes.

             22           A.     No.

             23           Q.     When you say you have spoken to

             24   people at those companies, who is it that you have

             25   spoken to at each of the companies?  For example,

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   Universal.

              3                  MR. GOLD:  If it was after January

              4           of 00, don't answer.  If it was before,

              5           don't answer.

              6           A.     I assume my business -- confidential

              7   information is covered under the confidentiality

              8   clause, the earlier confidentiality issue.

              9           Q.     You have a lawyer there.

             10                  MR. GOLD:  We are going to take

             11           two minutes.

             12                  MR. GARBUS:  Is there an open

             13           question.

             14                  MR. GOLD:  Please read back the

             15           question.

             16                  (Record read.)

             17                  MR. GOLD:  Off the record.

             18                  (Discussion off the record.)

             19                  MR. GARBUS:  Merely the name of

             20           the person.

             21                  MR. GOLD:  The name of the person

             22           and what they talked about would have to

             23           be kept confidential.

             24                  MR. GARBUS:  Let's start first off

             25           with the name of the person.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GOLD:  I'm saying that the

              3           name of the person would have to be kept

              4           confidential, as well as the subject

              5           matter.

              6                  MR. GARBUS:  We would have to get

              7           a ruling.  All I am asking now, if you

              8           are saying the names of any of the people

              9           that he spoke to prior to January 14th

             10           are to be kept confidential, then we

             11           should get a ruling on it so that --

             12                  MR. GOLD:  Let me take it another

             13           way.  Would you restate your question to

             14           cover the issues related to this lawsuit?

             15                  MR. GARBUS:  Surely.

             16                  MR. GOLD:  If you do that, then he

             17           can answer.

             18   BY MR. GARBUS:

             19           Q.     Can you tell me who prior to

             20   January 14th you spoke to at Universal relating to

             21   the issues relevant to this lawsuit?

             22           A.     No one.

             23           Q.     You can't tell me?  You don't

             24   remember?

             25           A.     I mean --

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GOLD:  He said no one.  You

              3           asked him who has he spoke to about the

              4           issues in this lawsuit.  He said nobody.

              5           Nobody at that studio.

              6           Q.     Would your answer be the same with

              7   respect to the other studios?

              8                  MR. GOLD:  Except for Time Warner.

              9           Q.     Namely, that everything I asked you,

             10   except for Time Warner, for our deposition, take

             11   Time Warner out of it as if they were not here.

             12   Don't tell me anything about Time Warner or anybody

             13   you ever spoke to there.

             14           A.     To any material degree, nobody.

             15           Q.     To your knowledge, prior to

             16   January 14th, did you know whether or not each of

             17   these studios maintained information on whether or

             18   not DeCSS was used to watch any DVDs that they had

             19   manufactured, distributed, or been in any way

             20   involved in?

             21           A.     Do I have any knowledge of that?

             22           Q.     Yes.

             23           A.     I have no knowledge either way.

             24           Q.     Do you have any knowledge of the

             25   record keeping at any of the plaintiffs?  Do you

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   know what I mean by "the plaintiffs"?

              3           A.     Yes.

              4           Q.     Everybody except for Time Warner,

              5   relating to DeCSS or its application.

              6           A.     I have no knowledge.

              7           Q.     Do you know whether after

              8   January 14th, do you have any knowledge whether or

              9   not any of the plaintiffs, other than Time Warner,

             10   maintain any records concerning the use of DeCSS?

             11           A.     I have no knowledge.

             12           Q.     Do you have any knowledge of who the

             13   person is, if anyone, at each of the plaintiffs,

             14   other than Time Warner, who is in charge of

             15   securing information about the use of DeCSS?

             16           A.     I have no knowledge.

             17           Q.     Do you have any knowledge since

             18   January 14th whether any of the plaintiffs, other

             19   than Time Warner, maintain any records on DeCSS?

             20           A.     I have no knowledge.

             21           Q.     Have you ever been told by anybody

             22   from the MPAA that since January 14th any one of

             23   them has seen a movie, a DVD that has been

             24   decrypted --

             25                  MR. GOLD:  Objection.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     -- by DeCSS?

              3                  MR. GOLD:  Objection as to work

              4           product and attorney-client privilege.

              5           Q.     By the way, are you a lawyer,

              6   Mr. Schumann?

              7           A.     I am not.

              8           Q.     Who have you had conversations with

              9   at the MPAA since November or December of 1999?

             10                  MR. GOLD:  Do you have a cut-off

             11           date on that question?

             12                  MR. GARBUS:  Let's use

             13           January 14th as the cut-off date.

             14           A.     Mark Litvack.

             15           Q.     That's the attorney sitting in this

             16   room today?

             17           A.     Yes.

             18           Q.     Is he the sole person you spoke to

             19   at the MPAA from November or December until

             20   January 14th?

             21           A.     I was on a phone call with one other

             22   gentleman, a conference call, and Mark, but I don't

             23   recall the name of that other gentleman.

             24           Q.     Was the other gentleman a lawyer?

             25           A.     He may have been, but I don't know.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Was he an MPAA employee?

              3           A.     To my knowledge, yes.

              4           Q.     Since January 14th, have you made

              5   any investigation on your own to determine whether

              6   or not DeCSS was being used to decrypt DVDs?

              7                  MR. GOLD:  Just answer "yes" or

              8           "no."

              9           A.     No.

             10           Q.     Pardon me?

             11           A.     On my own?

             12           Q.     Yes.

             13           A.     No.

             14           Q.     Has your company?

             15           A.     No.

             16           Q.     Do you know if any other company

             17   has?

             18                  MR. GOLD:  I think he means did

             19           you obtain knowledge prior to

             20           January 14th that any company did.

             21           A.     What is the current question?

             22                  MR. GARBUS:  Read it back.

             23                  (Record read.)

             24           Q.     -- been retained by the MPAA to

             25   determine if DeCSS is being used to allow people to

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   see DVDs?

              3           A.     I have no knowledge.

              4           Q.     Have you ever seen any reports from

              5   any other company indicating that the MPAA has

              6   retained any company or individuals to determine if

              7   DeCSS is being used to watch DVDs?

              8           A.     I have not seen any reports.

              9                  MR. GOLD:  Before you ask another

             10           question, I have to take a short break.

             11                  (Recess taken.)

             12   BY MR. GARBUS:

             13           Q.     Are you presently employed by the

             14   MPAA on this project?

             15           A.     No.

             16           Q.     When did your employment with the

             17   MPAA end?

             18           A.     The end of the project would have

             19   been in December.

             20           Q.     So you have not been employed by the

             21   MPAA this year at all?

             22           A.     Cinea, my company, all the contracts

             23   were with my company.  Not with me personally.

             24           Q.     Have you ever been employed by any

             25   of the plaintiffs in this lawsuit, at any time?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I have not.

              3           Q.     The conversations that you had --

              4                  MR. GOLD:  Before you ask a

              5           question, off the record.

              6                  (Discussion off the record.)

              7           Q.     The conversations that you had, did

              8   they indicate that you would be paid for your

              9   testimony here today?

             10                  MR. GOLD:  Conversations he had

             11           with who?

             12                  MR. GARBUS:  With anybody at the

             13           MPAA.

             14           A.     Not with anyone at the MPAA, no.

             15           Q.     With who?

             16                  MR. GOLD:  Objection to the form

             17           of the question.

             18           Q.     Did anybody tell you you were going

             19   to be paid for coming here to testify today?

             20           A.     Yes.

             21           Q.     Is that the Proskauer law firm?

             22           A.     Yes.

             23           Q.     Were you paid also for preparing the

             24   affidavits or taking the time to do the affidavits?

             25           A.     I was reimbursed for my time, yes.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     You said you reviewed the documents

              3   which are Exhibits B and C, amongst others, and you

              4   were asked to review those by the MPAA; is that

              5   correct?

              6           A.     That's correct.

              7           Q.     Did you then furnish them with a

              8   report?

              9           A.     I did.

             10           Q.     When did you furnish them with that

             11   report?

             12           A.     It would have been, I guess,

             13   mid-December.

             14           Q.     How many pages is that report?

             15           A.     I don't remember the exact amount.

             16   Fifty to one hundred pages.

             17   RQ             MR. GARBUS:  May I have a copy of

             18           that report, Mr. Gold?

             19                  MR. GOLD:  I will take that under

             20           advisement.  I think that is work product

             21           privilege.

             22           Q.     Have you ever been retained by

             23   Proskauer, the law firm?

             24           A.     Can you --

             25           Q.     Is there a letter of agreement or

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   any understanding between you and Proskauer that

              3   you are going to do any work for Proskauer?

              4                  MR. GOLD:  You are asking if there

              5           is a letter or oral agreement?

              6                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

              7           Q.     Related to?

              8           A.     Related to this case?

              9           Q.     Yes.

             10           A.     Yes.

             11           Q.     Is it an oral agreement or a written

             12   retainer?

             13           A.     There is an oral agreement.

             14           Q.     When were you retained by Proskauer?

             15           A.     I don't remember if it was late

             16   December or early January.  I think it was early

             17   January.

             18           Q.     Were you retained by Proskauer after

             19   your relationship with the MPAA ended?

             20           A.     I was.

             21           Q.     Were you retained by Proskauer to

             22   specifically help them out on this project?

             23   Namely --

             24           A.     I was, yes.

             25           Q.     Have you ever done any other work

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   for Proskauer?

              3           A.     Yes, I have.

              4           Q.     When was that?

              5           A.     The last three weeks, I guess.

              6           Q.     On a different matter?

              7           A.     On a different matter, that's

              8   correct.

              9           Q.     The DVD/CCA matter or something

             10   entirely different?

             11           A.     Something entirely different.

             12           Q.     With respect to the MPAA, after

             13   January 14th, did you have any conversations with

             14   them concerning this matter?

             15                  MR. GOLD:  Yes or no?

             16           A.     Any material conversations?

             17           Q.     Any conversations, after

             18   January 14th.

             19           A.     Yes.

             20           Q.     With whom?

             21           A.     Would have been with Mark Litvack.

             22           Q.     Did you also have conversations with

             23   the MPAA after January 14th with respect to helping

             24   them or being retained by them in another matter?

             25           A.     No.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Have you ever previously testified

              3   for either the MPAA or Proskauer?

              4           A.     I have not.

              5           Q.     Have you ever been deposed before?

              6           A.     I have not.

              7           Q.     The report that you originally

              8   furnished to the MPAA, did a copy of that go to

              9   Proskauer?

             10           A.     I have no knowledge.

             11           Q.     You just sent it on to the MPAA?

             12           A.     That's correct.

             13           Q.     Who did you send it on to?

             14           A.     Mark Litvack.

             15           Q.     Is there any other correspondence

             16   exchanged between you and the MPAA prior to the

             17   time that they ended their employment of you?  By

             18   "you," of course, I am referring to you and your

             19   company.

             20                  MR. GOLD:  I am going to object to

             21           that.  It misstates the witness' prior

             22           testimony.

             23                  MR. GARBUS:  Can I have the

             24           question read again.

             25                  (Record read.)

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   BY MR. GARBUS:

              3           Q.     Did you ever exchange any

              4   correspondence, other than this report, with the

              5   MPAA during the course of your employment with

              6   them?

              7           A.     Yes.

              8           Q.     Did they send letters back to you?

              9           A.     Not that I recall.  They did send a

             10   check, though.

             11           Q.     Do you have copies of any of the

             12   letters you sent to them today with you?

             13           A.     Not with me, no.

             14           Q.     How much such letters were there?

             15           A.     I believe there was only one.

             16           Q.     Was that the letter just enclosing

             17   the report?

             18           A.     And a separate one that enclosed the

             19   invoice.

             20           Q.     In addition to physical letters, is

             21   there any e-mail correspondence between you and the

             22   MPAA, in November, December, and January?

             23           A.     No.

             24                  MR. GARBUS:  For the purposes of

             25           this deposition, any time I say

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           "letters," it will include e-mails, as

              3           well.

              4                  MR. GOLD:  It would probably be

              5           better if you use all the words.  It's

              6           not that hard.

              7           Q.     Did you send to the MPAA any of the

              8   logs that you had concerning DeCSS?

              9                  MR. GOLD:  Yes or no?

             10           A.     Did I send to the MPAA any of the

             11   logs?

             12           Q.     Yes.

             13           A.     No.

             14           Q.     Did you download any materials in

             15   addition to that which was sent to you by the MPAA

             16   from either of these websites prior to

             17   January 14th?

             18           A.     How do you describe "download"?

             19           Q.     Take it off the machine and print

             20   it.

             21           A.     I may have.

             22           Q.     Would that be back in your office?

             23           A.     It's possible, but I probably would

             24   have thrown it away at the time.

             25           Q.     Do you have a file in your office on

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   this matter concerning the terms of your employment

              3   with the MPAA?

              4                  MR. GOLD:  Which is this matter?

              5           You mean the one in 1999 or -- is that

              6           the one you are talking about?

              7                  MR. GARBUS:  No.

              8           Q.     November and December you were

              9   employed with the MPAA.  Do you have a file of that

             10   in your office?

             11           A.     I have a file of that matter.  Not

             12   relating to the agreement.

             13   RL      Q.     What else is there in the file,

             14   other than the documents you have previously

             15   mentioned?

             16   DI             MR. GOLD:  I am going to object to

             17           that.  Attorney-client privilege.

             18                  MR. GARBUS:  We are talking about

             19           now when he was working for the MPAA,

             20           November and December.

             21                  MR. GOLD:  Of 1999.

             22                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

             23           Q.     You have a separate file maintained

             24   in your office after you were retained by

             25   Proskauer?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I do have a separate file for that,

              3   yes.

              4                  MR. GARBUS:  It occurs to me,

              5           Mr. Gold, that you just might have an

              6           objection if I ask for that file.

              7                  MR. GOLD:  I think I would.

              8           Although you might have been so amazingly

              9           clever I wouldn't have recognized it.  I

             10           gave him a compliment and I think it

             11           deserves to be on the record.

             12   BY MR. GARBUS:

             13           Q.     How many people work with Cinea?

             14           A.     There are currently two.

             15           Q.     It is you and?

             16           A.     A gentleman, David Degrooth, an

             17   employee of mine.

             18           Q.     What is his background?

             19           A.     He is an engineer.

             20           Q.     How long has that company been in

             21   existence?

             22           A.     Since June of 1999.

             23           Q.     You mentioned before that you had a

             24   colleague involved with you when you reviewed the

             25   downloaded material.  Do you recall?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     Yes.

              3           Q.     Did that colleague then work for the

              4   company?

              5           A.     Yes.  He is one of my partners.

              6           Q.     Is he still a partner in the

              7   company?

              8           A.     He is still a minority partner, yes.

              9           Q.     Does he still work with the company?

             10           A.     No.

             11           Q.     Did he then work for the company?

             12           A.     Yes.

             13           Q.     What is his background?

             14           A.     He is an IT professional.

             15           Q.     What does that mean?

             16           A.     He has a software background.

             17           Q.     Are any of the three of you

             18   cryptographers?

             19           A.     No, we are not.

             20           Q.     Do any of the three of you have a

             21   degree in cryptography?

             22           A.     We do not.

             23           Q.     What is your minority partner's

             24   education?

             25           A.     I believe he has a master's in

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   business administration.

              3           Q.     And his bachelor's is in?

              4           A.     I think it is in computer science,

              5   but I don't know.

              6           Q.     Prior to the time that you sent the

              7   report to the MPAA, did you do a draft of the

              8   report?

              9           A.     I'm sure I would have done an

             10   internal draft.

             11           Q.     Do you have copies of that internal

             12   draft?

             13           A.     I doubt it.  I typically remove

             14   earlier drafts.

             15           Q.     Wouldn't it be on your computer?

             16           A.     It might be, but I tend to clean up,

             17   sometimes.

             18           Q.     With respect to the report that the

             19   MPAA got from you, had they seen a draft of the

             20   report prior to the time you gave them the final

             21   report?

             22           A.     No.

             23           Q.     Had you had any discussions with

             24   anyone at the MPAA, including Mr. Litvack, about

             25   the nature of the report prior to the time they saw

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   it?

              3                  MR. GOLD:  Yes or no?

              4           A.     Yes.

              5           Q.     With who was that conversation?

              6           A.     Mr. Litvack.

              7           Q.     When was that conversation?

              8           A.     It would have been, I think, early

              9   December.

             10           Q.     What did Mr. Litvack say to you?

             11           A.     I don't remember the exact nature,

             12   but let me clarify my previous answer.  Okay?

             13           Q.     Go ahead.

             14           A.     I believe -- I have to check my

             15   records.  I believe we did an interim report to the

             16   MPAA, a short interim report, and this conversation

             17   would have been around that interim report.

             18           Q.     The interim report was a written

             19   report?

             20           A.     I believe it was.

             21           Q.     In addition to the interim report

             22   and the final report, were there any oral reports?

             23           A.     There were, I believe, several phone

             24   conversations, but I don't particularly remember

             25   any, I guess, meaningful revelations in those that

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   were not in the written reports.

              3           Q.     All those conversations were with

              4   Mr. Litvack?

              5           A.     That's correct.  Prior to the

              6   report.

              7           Q.     Did you make memos of any of those

              8   conversations?

              9           A.     I certainly didn't make any memos.

             10   I may have made a report -- not a report.  Some

             11   notes.

             12           Q.     When for the first time did you

             13   learn that Proskauer were the lawyers for the MPAA

             14   or any of the movie studios?

             15           A.     It would have been when I was

             16   retained by them in late December or early January.

             17           Q.     Since you have been retained by

             18   them, have you spoken to any other third parties to

             19   see if DeCSS has been used to decrypt DVDs?

             20                  MR. GOLD:  I think that by "third

             21           parties" Marty means people not at any of

             22           the plaintiffs and not at MPAA, and not

             23           at Proskauer.

             24           A.     Is that true?

             25                  MR. GOLD:  Is that true?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

              3           A.     Have I been retained by them?  Is

              4   that your question?

              5                  MR. GOLD:  No.  He asked, have you

              6           spoken with such third parties.

              7                  You are talking about matters

              8           relevant to this lawsuit?

              9                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

             10           A.     Not to any material respect, no.

             11           Q.     Have you made any investigation,

             12   since you have been retained by Proskauer, to

             13   determine if DeCSS is being used by anyone to

             14   decrypt DVDs?

             15           A.     You mean am I going out looking for

             16   information?

             17           Q.     Yes.

             18           A.     No, but I have seen press reports

             19   that it is being done.

             20           Q.     Which press reports are you

             21   referring to?

             22           A.     I believe there is a Toronto Star

             23   article where a reporter describes essentially

             24   exactly how to do what DeCSS -- what is described

             25   by the plaintiffs.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     What is the date of that article?

              3           A.     It was recent.  Within, I guess, the

              4   last two weeks.

              5           Q.     Do you have a copy of it?

              6           A.     I believe I do in my files.

              7           Q.     Can you give it to me?

              8                  MR. GOLD:  Yes.  You can probably

              9           get it from the system, I guess.

             10           Q.     Other than the Toronto article,

             11   since the day you were retained by Proskauer, have

             12   you learned whether anyone is using DeCSS to

             13   decrypt DVDs?

             14           A.     I mean the affidavits, again, speak

             15   to it.

             16           Q.     Other than the affidavits, you have

             17   no information?  Is there one person named in your

             18   affidavit who, to your knowledge, is using --

             19           A.     In my affidavits?

             20           Q.     Yes.

             21           A.     No.

             22           Q.     The affidavits don't mention

             23   anyone -- your last affidavit is dated --

             24           A.     Not my affidavits.  The affidavits

             25   provided by yourself.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     So the only information you have,

              3   then, about the use of DeCSS with respect to DVDs

              4   is the information that you have seen from the

              5   affidavits we have submitted?

              6                  MR. GOLD:  I am going to say that

              7           that is subject to the attorney-client

              8           and work product privileges.

              9           A.     Now, are you --

             10                  MR. GOLD:  That's it.  Wait for

             11           the next question.

             12                  MR. GARBUS:  Can I hear the

             13           question back?

             14                  (Record read.)

             15                  MR. GOLD:  If you want to ask him

             16           a question other than conversations that

             17           would be protected, you can.

             18           Q.     Other than conversations that you

             19   have had with Proskauer or any of their clients,

             20   and the reference that you just made to the Toronto

             21   Star, have you ever heard of anyone or know the

             22   name of anyone who has used DeCSS to download a DVD

             23   and watch a DVD?

             24           A.     I have certainly seen much, I guess,

             25   ancillary evidence of it occurring.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Specific evidence.

              3                  MR. GOLD:  I am going to object to

              4           the form of the question.

              5           Q.     When you say ancillary --

              6                  MR. GOLD:  If you want to ask the

              7           witness what evidence he has seen, ask

              8           him that.

              9           Q.     What ancillary evidence have you

             10   seen?

             11           A.     A variety of websites that describe

             12   copy and share your movies.

             13           Q.     Do you know if anyone has acted on

             14   those websites, what is said in the websites,

             15   mainly copy and share your movies?

             16           A.     I have no personal knowledge.

             17   RL      Q.     As of today, you have no personal

             18   knowledge of whether or not anyone has ever shared

             19   a movie by using DeCSS to decrypt a DVD?  All you

             20   know is that the websites tell people to do it?

             21   DI             MR. GOLD:  The witness' answers

             22           stand for themselves.

             23           Q.     Is that right?

             24                  MR. GOLD:  I have already taken

             25           objection to a part of this question, so

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           I am going to object to this question,

              3           but you have all of the information at

              4           the time that you ask direct questions.

              5           Q.     Have you ever seen a movie that had

              6   been on DVD on the internet?

              7           A.     Have I ever seen a movie that had

              8   been on DVD on the internet?

              9           Q.     Yes.

             10                  MR. GOLD:  By "seen," I think he

             11           means watched.  Is that what you mean?

             12                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

             13           A.     Have I ever watched one off the

             14   internet?

             15           Q.     Yes.

             16           A.     No.

             17           Q.     Do you know of anyone who has?

             18           A.     Yes.

             19           Q.     Who?

             20           A.     I know of a cousin of mine.

             21           Q.     Do you know how it got on the

             22   internet?

             23           A.     I do not.

             24           Q.     Do you know if it came from DeCSS?

             25           A.     In that particular case, it almost

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   certainly did not come from DeCSS.

              3           Q.     So you don't know of one situation

              4   as you sit here today, to the best of your

              5   knowledge, where a movie was ever shown on the

              6   internet that originally came from the use of

              7   DeCSS; is that right?

              8           A.     That is correct.

              9           Q.     Has anyone ever told you that they

             10   have ever seen a movie on the internet that came

             11   from the use of DeCSS?

             12                  MR. GOLD:  This would be other

             13           than conversations with your counsel or

             14           with the plaintiffs.

             15           A.     No.

             16                  MR. GARBUS:  Off the record.

             17                  (Discussion off the record.)

             18                  MR. GOLD:  Marty and I have just

             19           agreed that none of us is going to object

             20           to two people taking parts of a

             21           deposition when the person taking the

             22           majority of it has to leave for whatever

             23           important purpose he has.

             24   EXAMINATION BY

             25   MR. HERNSTADT:

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     I am Ed Hernstadt.  I will be the

              3   lawyer on the other side of the table for the next

              4   45 minutes or so.

              5                  Did you review any documents in

              6   preparation for this deposition?

              7           A.     I did.

              8           Q.     What did you review?

              9           A.     I reviewed the affidavits provided

             10   by the defendants, as well as my own affidavits.

             11           Q.     Did you read all of them or just

             12   some of them?

             13           A.     I read most of them.

             14           Q.     You are currently employed by

             15   Proskauer?

             16           A.     Define "employed."

             17           Q.     Do you have some kind of an

             18   agreement -- is it you or your company?

             19           A.     My company.

             20           Q.     Cinea has some kind of agreement

             21   with Proskauer to provide your services?

             22           A.     That's correct.

             23           Q.     What are the terms of that

             24   agreement?

             25           A.     I am reimbursed for my time.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     On an hourly basis?

              3           A.     That's correct.

              4           Q.     You said that you started doing work

              5   unrelated to this case for Proskauer.  Is that

              6   subject to a second agreement?

              7           A.     Yes, it is.

              8           Q.     I am only interested in the

              9   agreement that has to do with this case.

             10           A.     Yes.

             11           Q.     Although, I do want to ask you one

             12   question about this new case.  Is it a DVD case?

             13           A.     It is not a DVD case per se, no.

             14           Q.     Does it implicate copying or piracy?

             15           A.     It might, yes.

             16           Q.     When you worked for MPAA, that was

             17   also through your company Cinea?

             18           A.     That's correct.

             19           Q.     You personally have never had a

             20   relationship with the MPAA?

             21           A.     That is correct.

             22           Q.     And you never have had a

             23   relationship with any of the plaintiffs in this

             24   matter?

             25           A.     Me personally, that's correct.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     And you never have had a

              3   relationship with Proskauer?

              4           A.     That's correct.

              5           Q.     And Proskauer, are they representing

              6   you today, you personally?

              7           A.     (No response.)

              8           Q.     That is not a technical question.  I

              9   mean have you hired the Proskauer firm to be your

             10   lawyers for the purposes of being your lawyers?

             11           A.     Separate from their hiring me as an

             12   expert witness?

             13           Q.     Yes.

             14           A.     No.

             15           Q.     Can you tell me the terms of the

             16   agreement that exists between Cinea and Proskauer?

             17           A.     Yes.  Cinea is reimbursed at the

             18   rate of $325 per hour for my time, plus reasonable

             19   expenses.

             20           Q.     What was Cinea hired to do?

             21           A.     Cinea was hired to provide factual

             22   evidence to the best of our ability.

             23           Q.     Factual evidence about what?

             24           A.     About what we were asked questions

             25   about.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Tell me to help me out.

              3           A.     Effectively, about the two --

              4   essentially around the essence of the two

              5   affidavits that have been filed under my name or

              6   that I have filed, I guess.  I don't know what the

              7   terminology is.  I'm sure there is a legal term.  I

              8   don't know.

              9           Q.     Specifically looking at Exhibit A,

             10   it's the three items in Paragraph 1 of your

             11   Declaration.

             12           A.     The first Declaration?

             13           Q.     Yes, the first Declaration.

             14           A.     Okay.  My resume.

             15           Q.     No.  Paragraph 1 of the Declaration.

             16           A.     I'm sorry.  Paragraph 1 of the

             17   Declaration.  Yes.

             18                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Let's mark this as

             19           Defendant's Exhibit 2.

             20                  (Defendants' Exhibit 2, Supplemental

             21           Declaration of Robert Schumann, dated

             22           April 3rd, marked for identification, as of

             23           this date.)

             24                  MR. HERNSTADT:  This is the

             25           Supplemental Declaration of Robert

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Schumann, dated April 3rd.

              3   BY MR. HERNSTADT:

              4           Q.     These are the only two declarations

              5   that you have done in this case; is that correct?

              6           A.     Yes.

              7           Q.     Turning to Paragraph 1 of the

              8   Supplemental Declaration, you list two things.  The

              9   technical aspects of hyperlinks on the internet and

             10   the particular hyperlinks presented on the website

             11   of 2600.

             12                  Taken together, those are the areas

             13   that you were hired to provide Proskauer with

             14   expert information about; is that correct?

             15           A.     Yes.

             16                  MR. GOLD:  The document says that.

             17                  THE WITNESS:  Work product.

             18           Q.     I'm sorry?

             19           A.     This is the result of the

             20   discussions.

             21                  MR. GOLD:  The sentence says:

             22           "In this Declaration I focus particularly

             23           on the issues of linking on the internet,

             24           including --" and he mentions two of a

             25           group of issues that he is looking into

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           and then, of course, there is the

              3           original agreement where he says what he

              4           is looking into.

              5                  MR. HERNSTADT:  In the first

              6           Declaration?

              7                  MR. GOLD:  In the first

              8           Declaration.

              9                  MR. HERNSTADT:  That's what I

             10           said.

             11           Q.     Taken together, the two

             12   declarations, the areas laid out in Paragraph 1 of

             13   the first Declaration and the second Declaration,

             14   does that define the scope of the work that you

             15   were hired to perform services?

             16                  MR. GOLD:  You mean define it at

             17           the beginning or define it at the end?

             18                  MR. HERNSTADT:  In Paragraph 1 of

             19           the first Declaration, there is sub A,

             20           sub B, and sub C, which says that this is

             21           what in particular he has focused on in

             22           that Declaration.

             23                  In the Supplemental Declaration

             24           Paragraph 1, sub A and sub B, he says

             25           he is focusing on two particular areas.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     My question is:  Are those areas the

              3   areas for which you were hired to provide expert

              4   fact testimony or expert fact information for

              5   Proskauer?

              6           A.     I was not hired for a particular

              7   area, I guess.  I mean there was no -- there was no

              8   agreement up front that I would testify in these

              9   two particular areas to provide information.

             10           Q.     What I am trying to get at is what

             11   were you hired to give them?

             12           A.     I was hired to provide my

             13   professional opinion and expertise in this case.

             14           Q.     On any aspect of this case or on

             15   particular aspects of this case?

             16                  MR. GOLD:  What the witness said

             17           was that he was going to deal -- he

             18           just -- this is the third or fourth time.

             19                  MR. HERNSTADT:  He is going back

             20           and forth.

             21                  MR. GOLD:  No.  You are.

             22                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Mr. Gold, --

             23                  MR. GOLD:  I object to the form of

             24           the question.

             25                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Go ahead.  You can

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           answer it.

              3                  MR. GOLD:  Do you remember the

              4           question?

              5                  THE WITNESS:  Can you please read

              6           back the question?

              7                  (Record read.)

              8           A.     I presume they will only ask me

              9   questions on particular aspects of this case.

             10           Q.     What are the particular aspects of

             11   the case?

             12           A.     Two examples are embodied in the

             13   Supplement in the Declaration.

             14           Q.     Can you take a look at the first

             15   Declaration, if you would.

             16           A.     Yes.

             17           Q.     In 1B you say that you are going to

             18   focus on historical developments within the Linux

             19   community showing that DeCSS is not a program

             20   designed as a part of the development of the Linux

             21   compatible DVD player.

             22           A.     Correct.

             23                  MR. GOLD:  It says that he did

             24           focus on it.

             25                  MR. HERNSTADT:  It says what it

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           says.

              3                  MR. GOLD:  I know, but you keep on

              4           asking -- let me just read it right and I

              5           won't say anything.

              6                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Whatever.

              7           Q.     I take it the basis for the

              8   information contained in the Declaration were the

              9   logs that were sent to you by the MPAA; is that

             10   correct?

             11           A.     Relative to the historical

             12   developments --

             13                  MR. GOLD:  You can ask what you

             14           want to ask, but you can't interrupt the

             15           witness.

             16                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Please do not

             17           interrupt my deposition.

             18                  MR. GOLD:  Not if you are going to

             19           interrupt the witness.  I am telling you

             20           clearly, not if you are going to

             21           interrupt the witness.  You cannot

             22           interrupt the witness.

             23                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Mr. Gold, let me

             24           just continue.

             25                  MR. GOLD:  You cannot interrupt

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           the witness.

              3                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Read back the

              4           question.

              5                  (Record read.)

              6                  MR. GOLD:  Did you finish your

              7           answer?

              8           A.     Within the Linux community.

              9           Q.     What did you do with those logs

             10   after you sent the MPAA the report that you

             11   described earlier to Mr. Garbus?

             12           A.     I filed them.

             13           Q.     So you possess those logs still?

             14           A.     I do.

             15           Q.     Do you possess all of them?  In

             16   other words, do you take photocopies of the

             17   excerpts from those logs that are attached as

             18   Exhibits A and B?

             19           A.     I did.

             20   RQ             MR. HERNSTADT:  I call for

             21           production of the entire logs in your file.

             22                  MR. GOLD:  Taken under advisement.

             23           Q.     In Paragraph 1C, can you tell me

             24   what the basis of -- excuse me.

             25                  You say in particular you have

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   focused on and then going down to C, "Defendants

              3   claim that they are proliferating DeCSS as part of

              4   a legitimate analysis of how the DeCSS algorithm

              5   works."

              6                  Where do defendants claim what you

              7   say they claim in 1C?

              8           A.     My recollection is that is based on

              9   some of the claims in websites posting DeCSS.

             10           Q.     Which websites?

             11           A.     I can't remember off the top of my

             12   head.  I would have to --

             13           Q.     We only represent Emanuel Goldstein.

             14   That's the only defendant I am concerned about.

             15   Was it on Emanuel Goldstein's website?

             16           A.     I believe it was, but I would have

             17   to check that website or the records of that

             18   website.

             19                  MR. GOLD:  By the way, on the

             20           documents you are asking for, it will be

             21           faster if you keep a list of them,

             22           because we are not going to get this

             23           transcript for a while.

             24                  MR. HERNSTADT:  I will give it to

             25           you.

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              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GOLD:  We won't wait for the

              3           transcript if you give me a list.

              4                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Absolutely.  I

              5           will send you a letter at the end of the

              6           day.

              7                  MR. GOLD:  Good.

              8           Q.     Do you have printouts of

              9   Mr. Goldstein's website?

             10           A.     I believe I have printouts of some

             11   of the pages.  I believe they are attached even to

             12   this, I presume.

             13           Q.     And so it is attached as an exhibit

             14   to your Declaration?

             15           A.     I believe -- I mean I would have to

             16   look, but I believe --

             17                  Actually, I take that back.  For

             18   this Declaration it did not have any website

             19   attachments.  The Supplemental did.

             20                  MR. HERNSTADT:  I would just call

             21           for the production of any documents that

             22           contain a claim by any of the defendants,

             23           past or current, that they are

             24           proliferating DeCSS as part of a

             25           legitimate analysis of how the DeCSS

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              1                         Schumann

              2           algorithm worked.

              3                  MR. GOLD:  Are you including

              4           affidavits and briefs that defendants

              5           have filed?

              6                  MR. HERNSTADT:  By definition,

              7           because this Declaration was signed on

              8           January 19th, whatever he had was at the

              9           time he made this statement.

             10                  MR. GOLD:  You are still on the

             11           first?

             12                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Yes.  Still on the

             13           first.

             14           Q.     You answered Mr. Garbus' question

             15   earlier that the DeCSS served only one function,

             16   which was to decrypt CSS protected cipher text and

             17   copy and store the encrypted audio-visual data in

             18   one or more computer files.

             19                  I am reading that from Paragraph 2

             20   of your Declaration.

             21           A.     Yes.

             22           Q.     Does DeCSS also have the function of

             23   permitting a consumer who has purchased a DVD to

             24   evade the region coding?

             25           A.     No.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Does DeCSS permit a consumer who has

              3   purchased a DVD to fast-forward through sections of

              4   a DVD that the manufacturer has prevented from

              5   being fast-forwarded?

              6           A.     DeCSS itself?

              7           Q.     That's my question.

              8           A.     No.

              9           Q.     Does DeCSS enable someone to use

             10   with some other program, like a DVD player, to skip

             11   the region code?

             12           A.     I think it is irrelevant to that

             13   problem.

             14           Q.     You think DeCSS is irrelevant to

             15   that problem?

             16           A.     To the problem of evading region

             17   code?

             18           Q.     Yes.

             19           A.     Yes.

             20           Q.     You have reviewed some of the

             21   declarations that the defendants have submitted?

             22           A.     Yes, I have.

             23           Q.     In a Declaration if there is a

             24   statement that says that DeCSS permits you to evade

             25   region coding, a region coding limitation, then

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              1                         Schumann

              2   that statement is incorrect?

              3                  MR. GOLD:  I object to the form.

              4           Q.     You can answer the question.

              5           A.     In my professional opinion, DeCSS is

              6   irrelevant to evading the region coding, in your

              7   terminology.

              8           Q.     Why is that?

              9           A.     Because region coding is not part of

             10   the DeCSS specification.

             11           Q.     What is CSS?  I will be a little

             12   more specific.  What is in the specification of

             13   CSS?

             14           A.     To my understanding, CSS describes

             15   an access control mechanism for the disk, an

             16   encryption and decryption mechanism for the disk,

             17   and a key management function.

             18           Q.     What do you base that understanding

             19   on?

             20           A.     My experience in the DVD industry.

             21           Q.     Can you be more specific?  What

             22   experience?

             23           A.     I have six plus years now in --

             24   actually, DVD has only been around four years, but

             25   I have been working in the field since the

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              1                         Schumann

              2   beginning of DVD and have intimate knowledge of the

              3   DVD specs.

              4           Q.     Have you ever reviewed the CSS

              5   source code?

              6           A.     The CSS source code?  I have not.

              7           Q.     Have you ever seen a CSS license?

              8           A.     I have not.

              9           Q.     Do you know what the terms of the

             10   CSS license are?

             11           A.     Not as a factual matter, no.

             12           Q.     In your six years of working with

             13   DVDs, you know the DVD specifications?

             14           A.     Yes.

             15           Q.     How does that tell you what the CSS

             16   does and how CSS works?

             17           A.     I know -- I know what the DVD

             18   specification does and I know what the -- from

             19   working in the industry, what CSS adds technically

             20   to DVD, but I do not know the details of the CSS

             21   specification.

             22           Q.     Could you then describe the

             23   securities system or security devices, however you

             24   would phrase that, that protect the information on

             25   a DVD?  What are these different systems or

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              1                         Schumann

              2   devices --

              3           A.     Can you define "protect"?

              4           Q.     -- that prevent consumers from

              5   getting at the copyrighted material on a DVD?

              6           A.     In what way?  You describe --

              7           Q.     Let's start with accessing.  The two

              8   aspects I am looking at are accessing the material

              9   and playing the material.

             10           A.     Can you please break the question

             11   into -- are you including both region coding and

             12   copy control?

             13           Q.     I want to know all the different

             14   things that are on a DVD that protect, access, or

             15   protect playing or protect copying, and I use

             16   copying and accessing together.  You have to get

             17   access to copy.

             18           A.     There are, to my knowledge, two

             19   mechanisms.  There is a mechanism called region

             20   control or region codes, which is part of the DVD

             21   specification, and there is the CSS system itself.

             22           Q.     Have you tried to use DeCSS to see

             23   if it has any effect on region coding?

             24           A.     I have absolutely no need to do

             25   that.

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              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Why not?

              3           A.     Because I know for a fact that it

              4   has no impact on region coding.

              5           Q.     How do you know that?

              6           A.     Because I have in the past had

              7   intimate and detailed knowledge of how region

              8   coding is implemented in DVDs and that is

              9   completely embodied within the DVD specification

             10   and, therefore, CSS or DeCSS would have no impact

             11   on that.

             12           Q.     I am asking about DeCSS, not CSS.

             13           A.     To my knowledge, DeCSS would have no

             14   impact on that either.

             15           Q.     Tell me, what does DeCSS do?

             16           A.     DeCSS, as described in my

             17   Declaration, DeCSS performs three -- has three

             18   parts to it, if you will.  It authorizes the DVD

             19   drive to release the CSS protected information, it

             20   allows its user, through user interface, to select

             21   one or more files from the DVD to copy.

             22                  Both select what to copy and also

             23   where to copy those data files, and that can be on

             24   any, I guess, connected drive or network connection

             25   that is attached to their computer in the standard

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              1                         Schumann

              2   Windows file system.  And then after the user

              3   indicates what files they would like to decipher

              4   and store, it then proceeds to read -- decrypt the

              5   contents of those files and store them where

              6   indicated by the user.

              7           Q.     And you indicated that you undertook

              8   that exercise; is that correct?

              9           A.     I did run the DeCSS, yes.

             10           Q.     What movie did you use?

             11           A.     I don't recall.  It may have been, I

             12   think, The Matrix came out around then.

             13           Q.     Do you know how big the movie was,

             14   how many gigabytes?

             15           A.     It was 4 or 6 gigabytes.  It was

             16   probably 4 gigabytes.

             17           Q.     Do you have a record of what movie

             18   you viewed?

             19           A.     I doubt I kept a detailed written

             20   record of it.

             21           Q.     You actually don't know what movie

             22   it was or how big it was?

             23           A.     Not exactly, no.

             24           Q.     Did you leave the deciphered or

             25   decrypted files on your hard drive?

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              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I doubt I did.  I may have.

              3           Q.     How big is your hard drive?

              4           A.     I think the machine that ran on was,

              5   I don't know, 10, 12 gigabytes.

              6           Q.     Did you have to clear files out in

              7   order to make room to store the movie?

              8           A.     No.

              9           Q.     You had between 4 and 6 open

             10   gigabytes of space on your hard drive?

             11           A.     Yes.

             12           Q.     You didn't play it, so you don't

             13   know if it would actually play?

             14           A.     I played it from the DVD.

             15           Q.     But you didn't play it from the

             16   stored files; is that correct?

             17           A.     I did not.

             18           Q.     You don't know if that would

             19   actually play or not?

             20           A.     There is no -- there is no reason

             21   why the resulted decrypted files will not play.

             22           Q.     But you don't know one way or the

             23   other; correct?

             24                  MR. GOLD:  He just testified that

             25           he did.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I know that those files are exactly

              3   as playable as when they were on the DVD, except

              4   they are in decrypted form.

              5           Q.     How do you know they are decrypted?

              6           A.     What?

              7           Q.     How do you know they are decrypted?

              8   You didn't test it; right?

              9           A.     I looked at some of the structures

             10   in the file.

             11           Q.     How did that tell you that it was

             12   decrypted?

             13           A.     DVD has a very specific structure

             14   within it and the encryption destroys that

             15   structure, so you can look at the structure.

             16           Q.     Your assumption is that it would

             17   play, but you didn't actually view it?

             18           A.     Yes.

             19           Q.     Okay.  Fair enough.  In Paragraph 4

             20   of your Declaration you say that, in the very last

             21   sentence, "The stored unencrypted movie file and

             22   then be further copied, electronically transmitted,

             23   digitally altered, or displayed."

             24                  Can you explain how it can be

             25   further copied?

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              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     Certainly.  I can go in Windows.  As

              3   an example, I can move it from one hard drive to

              4   another or to a computer that is attached on the

              5   network, using an Explorer.

              6           Q.     Within a network, let's take for a

              7   moment in your office, you can move it from one

              8   computer to another?

              9           A.     Within -- yeah, within the office or

             10   if I was on a university campus, I can move it from

             11   one computer to another.

             12           Q.     Assuming that the other computer had

             13   enough space on the hard drive?

             14           A.     That's correct.

             15           Q.     How else would you copy it?

             16           A.     You could copy it to tape, you could

             17   copy it to CDs.

             18           Q.     In Paragraph 5 you say there are

             19   products available at a reasonable cost.  Could you

             20   tell me specifically what those products are?

             21           A.     I would have to look at the

             22   attachments.  I believe there were attachments that

             23   showed specific product.  Not a separate exhibit.

             24   There was a -- I mean there is on-stream, there are

             25   tape drives, there are a variety of tape drives.

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              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     What tape drives are there?

              3                  MR. GOLD:  Had you finished your

              4           answer to the last question?

              5                  THE WITNESS:  Can you read back

              6           the question and my answer.

              7                  (Record read.)

              8                  THE WITNESS:  What you are saying

              9           is, "What tape drives are there?" is a

             10           separate question?

             11                  MR. GOLD:  You had finished the

             12           prior question?

             13                  THE WITNESS:  Yes.

             14                  MR. GOLD:  Go ahead.

             15           A.     There is certainly the on-stream and

             16   at the time I don't recall, but at the time we

             17   looked on the internet and found a variety of tape

             18   drives you could find -- like go into buy.com and

             19   buying the drives and the tapes.

             20           Q.     Do you have a record of that

             21   research?

             22           A.     I believe I do, yes.

             23   RQ             MR. HERNSTADT:  I call for the

             24           production of that.

             25           Q.     I take it that this is all in the

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              1                         Schumann

              2   MPAA file that you say that you maintained?

              3           A.     This, I assume, would be in my

              4   Proskauer file.

              5           Q.     When you say a tape drive for less

              6   than $300, for example, the on-stream tape drive?

              7           A.     That's what was referenced here.  I

              8   would have to look at the details, but there were

              9   several different mechanisms that were relatively

             10   cost effective.

             11           Q.     How big are these high capacity

             12   digital tape drives?

             13           A.     I have to look at the details, but

             14   some of them go up to 15 or 20 gigabytes.

             15           Q.     Do they have the same quality as a

             16   DVD?

             17           A.     Yes.  Absolutely.

             18           Q.     Do they have the same functionality

             19   as a DVD?

             20           A.     In what sense?

             21           Q.     Can you play a movie on a tape the

             22   same way that you can play a movie on a DVD?

             23           A.     Depends on the playback software,

             24   but you would lose some functionality playing back

             25   directly from a tape.

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              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Is there another way to play it

              3   back, other than directly from a tape?

              4           A.     You can copy it to a hard drive and

              5   then play it from your hard drive.

              6           Q.     So this is all for playing on a

              7   computer?

              8           A.     I would presume, yes.

              9           Q.     You also mentioned writable DVD.

             10   How much are DVD burners?

             11           A.     It depends on the DVD burner.

             12           Q.     Can you give me a range, please?

             13           A.     I believe DVD read-write drives, and

             14   don't hold me to the exact acronym.  There are

             15   three or four technologies, as one of the

             16   affidavits that you presented accurately describes,

             17   but there is one of them that I believe is for sale

             18   now, for the drives, $400 or $500.

             19           Q.     Can you tell me which one that is?

             20           A.     I think it is DVD-RW, but I would

             21   have to look.

             22           Q.     What company or manufacturer sells a

             23   DVD burner for $400 or $500?

             24           A.     I believe there are several -- I

             25   know there are several manufacturers.  MEI,

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              1                         Schumann

              2   otherwise known as Panasonic.  I believe Pioneer

              3   has a competing, and I think Sony has another one.

              4   Phillips, also, has the technology.  Again, I don't

              5   know who is behind exactly which technology.  There

              6   are three or four.

              7           Q.     They are all available for $400 or

              8   $500?

              9           A.     I don't believe they are all

             10   available.

             11           Q.     Which is available for $400 or $500?

             12           A.     Again, I don't know exactly without

             13   looking.

             14           Q.     Did you look this up at one point?

             15           A.     Yes, I have occasionally looked at

             16   the prices.

             17           Q.     Do you have a record of this?

             18           A.     I doubt I would have a detailed

             19   record.  I may have looked at DVD read-write

             20   drives.  When I did the affidavit, I would have

             21   looked and found at least one.

             22           Q.     Do you know how much the media cost?

             23           A.     For?

             24           Q.     DVD read-write.

             25           A.     I'm sure that depends on the

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              1                         Schumann

              2   technology.

              3           Q.     Does that mean you know --

              4           A.     No, I don't know.  Off the top of my

              5   head, I do not know the exact details.

              6           Q.     Do you know, when you say there are

              7   several competing technologies, is there a single

              8   standard yet for DVD burners?

              9           A.     No, there is not a single standard.

             10           Q.     Do you know when there will be or if

             11   there will be?

             12           A.     I would imagine there will be a

             13   dominant standard that will emerge.

             14           Q.     I'm not asking you to speculate or

             15   guess.  If this is beyond your area of expertise,

             16   just say so?

             17           A.     It is likely that a dominant

             18   standard will emerge.

             19           Q.     Do you know when?

             20           A.     Somebody will win.  I have no idea

             21   when.

             22           Q.     So that means that if you burn a DVD

             23   on, let's say a Panasonic burner, it won't play in

             24   a Phillips player; is that correct?

             25           A.     That's not a given.

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              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Does it depend on what technology

              3   they use?

              4           A.     It depends on what technology the

              5   DVD drive can read.

              6           Q.     So if the DVD drive is built to read

              7   the technology of the particular burner that that

              8   same company makes --

              9           A.     Then you would be able to read that

             10   disk.  It's really more the disk than the drive on

             11   the burner.

             12           Q.     How would you distribute a DVD movie

             13   on the internet?

             14           A.     In a variety of ways.  There are a

             15   variety of ways.

             16           Q.     Go ahead, please.

             17           A.     You could distribute it in its

             18   native DVD form.  In other words, essentially the

             19   decrypted output of DeCSS could then be made

             20   available via a large variety of mechanisms.

             21   Anything from to friends and the extreme pace,

             22   sending an e-mail, but you would put it on your web

             23   page and your friends or whoever can come get it.

             24   Or the much more likely feature scenario, you could

             25   make it available with new tools coming out now.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  The Gnutella and Napster, Freenet,

              3   I-Search, and -- I think it is called I-Search --

              4   and a variety of others.  There is a whole series

              5   of these coming available now.  More likely you

              6   would take the decrypted content in order to make

              7   it smaller to make it easier for people with lower

              8   bandwidths to acquire the contents.

              9                  You might, for instance, use the

             10   recently released DivX software to further compress

             11   the file and allow even faster access to the

             12   content.

             13           Q.     If you were to e-mail it to a

             14   friend, a DVD movie that was, let's say, 6

             15   gigabyte, how long would that take?

             16           A.     It depends where the friend is and

             17   what the e-mail system is.

             18           Q.     What kind of system do you have?

             19           A.     In my office I have access to an

             20   ISDN link to the network.

             21           Q.     What is that?  Is that a T1?  Is

             22   that a T3?

             23           A.     No.  128 kilobit per seconds.

             24           Q.     How long would it take you to

             25   e-mail?

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              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I would have to do the math and

              3   e-mail is controlled also by the speed of the

              4   intermediate server.  It would take several hours

              5   at least.

              6           Q.     Did you review John Gillmore's

              7   affidavit estimating the length of time it would

              8   take to transmit a movie using a 56K modem and then

              9   a T1 line?

             10           A.     I recall seeing his affidavit.  I

             11   would have to see exact text to comment on the

             12   details of it.

             13           Q.     You said tools like Gnutella,

             14   Napster, Freenet, I-Search.  What kind of tools are

             15   they?

             16           A.     They are essentially file-sharing

             17   tools that have been recently described accurately,

             18   I think, as consumer-to-consumer file sharing

             19   tools.

             20           Q.     Using those tools, the consumer

             21   still has to download the movie; is that correct?

             22           A.     Download in what sense?

             23           Q.     In order to acquire a copy of it to

             24   view.

             25           A.     Yes.  They get a copy from whoever

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              1                         Schumann

              2   is providing the copy, that's correct.

              3           Q.     So that doesn't save any time in

              4   terms of downloading.  It just gives you a place to

              5   go to find it; is that correct?

              6           A.     That's correct.  It has no impact on

              7   the download speed.

              8           Q.     Are you aware of DeCSS being used in

              9   conjunction with DivX?

             10           A.     With DivX?

             11           Q.     Yes.

             12           A.     I believe I have seen some press

             13   reports to that effect.

             14           Q.     Where have you seen that?

             15           A.     On the -- Toronto Star article, I

             16   think.  I would have to look in detail.  And I know

             17   I went to the DivX website and it described using

             18   DeCSS in conjunction with DivX to share movies.

             19           Q.     There is no need to use DeCSS; is

             20   there?

             21           A.     In what sense?

             22           Q.     There is other ways of getting the

             23   movies so that you can compress it using DivX;

             24   isn't that correct?

             25           A.     So it can compress it using DivX?

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              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Or to use with DivX.

              3           A.     Not that would give you the same

              4   result, to my knowledge.

              5           Q.     Is it your understanding that all

              6   the movies that are available using DivX have been

              7   decrypted with DeCSS?

              8           A.     No.

              9           Q.     How do you explain those two sort of

             10   seemingly contradictory understanding?

             11                  MR. GOLD:  Objection as to form.

             12           Do you understand the question?

             13                  THE WITNESS:  I understand.

             14           Q.     Go ahead.

             15           A.     I guess I don't understand why you

             16   think they are contradictory.  Perhaps you can

             17   clarify what you find contradictory with my answer.

             18           Q.     You said that not all the -- let's

             19   call it a DivX movie.  Do you understand that term?

             20           A.     A DivX compressed movie, yes.

             21   That's fine.

             22           Q.     That not all those movies are made

             23   using DeCSS.

             24           A.     I have no knowledge one way or

             25   another.

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              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     It is your opinion that you would

              3   get a better quality DivX movie if you used DeCSS?

              4           A.     I believe I said that there is no

              5   tool, to my knowledge, that would give you the

              6   equivalent result of DeCSS.

              7           Q.     Could you explain what you mean by

              8   that, equivalent result of DeCSS?

              9           A.     DeCSS gives you a perfect replica of

             10   the sort content of the DVD, on the original DVD.

             11   A perfect unencrypted, unprotected copy of the

             12   source DVD and, to my knowledge, no other tools,

             13   other than perhaps some Linux tools, built on DeCSS

             14   or built on the source of DeCSS, equivalent

             15   functions give you the same thing.

             16           Q.     Do you know if there are players

             17   that will play those decrypted movies?

             18           A.     I have heard and seen reports that

             19   there are some players.  I have no personal

             20   knowledge.

             21                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Why don't we stop

             22           now.

             23           (Luncheon recess taken at 12:55 p.m.)

             24                        --o0o--

             25           A F T E R N O O N     S E S S I O N

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                 (Time noted:  2:05 p.m.)

              3   R O B E R T   W.   S C H U M A N N, resumed and

              4           testified as follows:


              6   BY MR. GARBUS:

              7           Q.     Before you were talking about DVD

              8   burners.  Can you tell me what a DVD burner is used

              9   for at the present time?

             10           A.     I'm sure I am not aware of all the

             11   uses, but it is used for a variety of purposes.

             12           Q.     Go ahead and tell me what that

             13   variety is.

             14           A.     Some of them have used it to make

             15   DVDs, actual DVDs in the video sense.  I am sure

             16   they are used for large capacity storage devices.

             17   Those are the primary purposes I am aware of.

             18           Q.     Do you know of any other purposes

             19   that it can be used for in the future?  Are those

             20   primarily the purposes for which it was intended?

             21           A.     I don't think the DVD writers have

             22   any particular intent.

             23           Q.     Have you ever burned a DVD?

             24           A.     Not directly.

             25           Q.     When you say not directly --

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              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I have caused them to be burned, but

              3   I have not operated the machinery myself.

              4           Q.     What happened when you caused it to

              5   be burned?

              6           A.     We were able to play the resultant

              7   DVD in the DVD player.

              8           Q.     Did you see it?

              9           A.     Yes, I did.

             10           Q.     Do you have notes of the quality of

             11   which you saw?

             12           A.     No.

             13           Q.     Do you know how long the burning

             14   took?

             15           A.     I don't know the exact period of

             16   time.  I think it was a standard writing.  Standard

             17   period, one to two hours.

             18           Q.     Do you know of any DVD that was

             19   burned that was ever sold?

             20           A.     Yes.

             21           Q.     Do you have a disk concerning your

             22   burning or having the DVD burned at your request?

             23           A.     I don't believe in my possession.

             24           Q.     Where is it?

             25           A.     That would be with my former

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              1                         Schumann

              2   employer.

              3   RQ             MR. GARBUS:  I ask that it be

              4           produced.

              5                  MR. GOLD:  Taken under advisement.

              6           Q.     You say you do know of a DVD that

              7   was sold that was burned?

              8           A.     I believe -- I mean --

              9           Q.     From your own personal knowledge.

             10           A.     I believe that it has occurred.

             11           Q.     No.  From your own personal

             12   knowledge.

             13           A.     Certainly no DVD that I caused to be

             14   burned was sold.

             15           Q.     Do you know of any DVD particularly

             16   that anybody caused to be burned was sold?

             17           A.     I believe I know of circumstances,

             18   but I can't guarantee them.

             19           Q.     Give me the best of your

             20   recollection.

             21           A.     I know, for example, that DVDs are

             22   used on aircraft in very small quantities where it

             23   is cost effective to burn them individually rather

             24   than do a pressing.

             25           Q.     When you say on aircraft, what do

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   you mean by that?

              3           A.     On planes.  You know, watching

              4   movies -- playback on planes.

              5           Q.     I am talking now particularly about

              6   movies that are being ripped off.

              7           A.     Oh, I'm sorry.  I didn't understand

              8   that qualification earlier.

              9           Q.     With that qualification, can you

             10   answer those questions?

             11           A.     With that qualification, I have no

             12   specific knowledge.

             13           Q.     So you have no knowledge of any DVD

             14   that was burned, that was allegedly ripped off,

             15   ever sold?

             16           A.     Burned on an individual writer?

             17           Q.     Yes.

             18           A.     Personal knowledge, no.

             19           Q.     Burned on any kind of writer?

             20           A.     No.

             21           Q.     Since you have been employed by

             22   Proskauer, have you had any conversations with the

             23   MPAA about how many DVDs they believe were seen by

             24   anybody as a result of DeCSS?

             25           A.     No.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Have you had any conversation with

              3   Universal concerning that?

              4           A.     No.

              5           Q.     Other than Time Warner, putting them

              6   aside, have you had any conversations with the

              7   other plaintiffs concerning that?

              8           A.     No.

              9           Q.     Have you ever seen any MPAA records

             10   indicate that they know of a DeCSS being used to

             11   gain access to a DVD, particular access?

             12           A.     Is this different than your earlier

             13   question?

             14           Q.     Yes.  Talking about records now

             15   rather than people.

             16           A.     I believe before lunch I said that I

             17   had no knowledge of any records of any shape from

             18   the studios, relative to -- I guess pirated movies.

             19   I don't remember the exact question, but I think we

             20   have went over this.  I apologize, but I don't want

             21   to waste any of our time.

             22           Q.     Have you ever seen any records that

             23   Proskauer has --

             24           A.     I have not.

             25           Q.     -- concerning whether or not they

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   know of any particular case of DeCSS being used

              3   with respect to DVDs?

              4           A.     I have not.

              5           Q.     Do you know if Proskauer or any of

              6   the plaintiffs or the MPAA has retained any firm or

              7   any third person to see the application or to

              8   understand the application of DeCSS to DVDs?

              9           A.     I have no knowledge.

             10                  MR. GARBUS:  Can I hear the last

             11           question, please.

             12                  (Record read.)

             13   BY MR. GARBUS:

             14           Q.     Do you know whether either Proskauer

             15   or any of the plaintiffs had ever seen the DVD that

             16   had been decrypted by DeCSS?

             17           A.     I have no knowledge.

             18           Q.     Have you ever seen any reports from

             19   Proskauer or the MPAA or any of the plaintiffs

             20   indicating whether or not they had ever seen the

             21   DVD after the application of DeCSS?

             22           A.     You were referring to pirated DVDs

             23   when you clarified?

             24           Q.     Yes.

             25           A.     I have no knowledge.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Do you have any knowledge whether

              3   anybody at the MPAA claims that there ever was a

              4   pirated copy of a DVD sold, a copy that had been

              5   enabled by the use of DeCSS?

              6           A.     I have no knowledge.

              7           Q.     Would your answer be the same with

              8   respect to Proskauer and the seven plaintiffs in

              9   this case, excluding Time Warner?

             10           A.     I believe so, yes.

             11           Q.     Read back the last question and

             12   answer.

             13                  (Record read.)

             14           Q.     You mentioned the article in the

             15   Toronto Star.  That was back in May; was it?

             16           A.     I believe this was -- May of this

             17   year?

             18           Q.     Yes.

             19           A.     I believe so.  I don't recall the

             20   exact date.

             21           Q.     Do you recall the article says

             22   that -- you stated before that the article says

             23   that he used DeCSS to get access to a DVD; is that

             24   right?

             25           A.     To remove the CSS encryption, yes.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Do you recall anything else about

              3   the article?  Did it tell you if he was successful?

              4   Did it tell you what the quality of the film was

              5   that he saw?  Did he see such a film?  Did he tell

              6   you anything about the problems that he had in

              7   getting to the DVD?

              8           A.     If I generally recall, and I have to

              9   look in detail, but I believe it described the

             10   removal of CSS as fairly straightforward and then

             11   he apparently had a playback system that needed

             12   some more work.  Because if I remember correctly,

             13   he described some issues in the playback of the

             14   content.

             15           Q.     Do you remember what those issues

             16   were?

             17           A.     I don't remember in complete

             18   specific detail, but I think there was some

             19   audio/video syncing issues perhaps.

             20           Q.     Do you know if he ever got the audio

             21   off the DVD?

             22                  MR. GOLD:  Do you want to show him

             23           a copy of the article since it speaks for

             24           itself or do you want to play memory

             25           games?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead,

              3           Mr. Schumann.

              4           A.     Did he ever get the audio --

              5           Q.     -- off the DVD?

              6           A.     If he ran DeCSS and, in fact, copied

              7   what is referred to as a VOB file and removed CSS,

              8   then he did, in fact, remove the audio from the

              9   DVD, as they are intertwined.

             10           Q.     Do you know if he did that?

             11           A.     I can only presume that he claimed

             12   to have ran CSS and removed it.  CSS does not

             13   distinguish between the audio and the video.

             14           Q.     Do you recall what the quality was

             15   of the audio and the visual?

             16                  MR. GOLD:  You mean what the

             17           article says about the Quality?

             18                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

             19                  MR. GOLD:  You don't want to show

             20           him the article?

             21                  MR. GARBUS:  No.

             22                  MR. GOLD:  Do you remember that?

             23                  THE WITNESS:  I believe it

             24           referenced the quality of the playback

             25           being poor, but in my professional

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           opinion, that has nothing to do with the

              3           quality of the DeCSS.  Only to do with

              4           the playback environment.

              5           Q.     Have you ever seen the quality of a

              6   DVD that has been accessed by DeCSS?

              7           A.     I'm sorry.  I don't fully

              8   understand.

              9           Q.     Have you ever seen the film that was

             10   on the DVD that was accessed through the use of

             11   DeCSS and have you ever observed its quality?

             12           A.     Are you saying have I ever seen a

             13   playback after DeCSS to assess the result and

             14   quality?

             15           Q.     Yes.

             16           A.     I believe, as I stated earlier, I

             17   have never seen, personally seen the playback after

             18   DeCSS, but there is nothing in the DeCSS process

             19   itself which would have any impact on the quality

             20   of the resultant playback.

             21           Q.     Do you recall if the Toronto

             22   reporter mentioned that he had lost the audio using

             23   DivX?

             24           A.     I don't recall the specific details

             25   of the pieces he did.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Do you recall whether the article

              3   talks about how long it took to --

              4           A.     I believe he was frustrated with the

              5   quality of the software he was using.

              6           Q.     When you say he was frustrated, can

              7   you explain that further?

              8           A.     I believe he described that he

              9   attempted one process that failed after some hour

             10   period or something to that regard, and he had to

             11   restart.

             12           Q.     Do you recall, when he restarted,

             13   whether it worked or not?

             14           A.     I believe he succeeded to some

             15   degree.

             16           Q.     When you say he succeeded to some

             17   degree, do you know what degree he succeeded?

             18                  MR. GOLD:  Do you want to show him

             19           the article?

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  No.

             21                  MR. GOLD:  Do you recall?

             22                  THE WITNESS:  It may have been a

             23           subset of the original, but I believe

             24           that was only on playback.

             25           Q.     Other than the article writer who

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   described the application of DeCSS, have you ever

              3   spoken to anyone else at any time since November or

              4   December who has used DeCSS for the purposes of

              5   decrypting a DVD?

              6           A.     For the purposes of decrypting a

              7   DVD?

              8           Q.     For the purposes of watching a DVD.

              9                  MR. GOLD:  You mean a DVD that has

             10           already been decrypted?  I object to the

             11           question.

             12           Q.     Do you understand the question?

             13                  MR. GARBUS:  Read the question

             14           back.

             15                  MR. GOLD:  I don't understand the

             16           question.

             17                  MR. GARBUS:  Read the question.

             18                  (Record read.)

             19                  MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead.

             20                  MR. GOLD:  I think the question

             21           is:  Did you ever speak to anyone else

             22           for the purpose of watching a DVD that

             23           has been decrypted.  If you know what

             24           that means, you can answer.

             25           A.     Other than the plaintiffs?  In that

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   group?

              3           Q.     Right.

              4           A.     I am not particularly aware of any,

              5   no.

              6           Q.     But plaintiffs within the group

              7   have, to your knowledge, viewed DVDs?

              8           A.     I have no knowledge.

              9   DI             MR. GOLD:  I am going to object to

             10           that on the basis of attorney-client and

             11           work product.

             12                  MR. GARBUS:  Do you want to define

             13           the basis for this objection or would you

             14           rather wait for the judge for that?  Both

             15           the attorney-client and the work product.

             16                  MR. GOLD:  Sure.  All work-product

             17           objections held by the people he has been

             18           designated as a witness for are

             19           applicable to him in his testimony.

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  I am not clear,

             21           Mr. Gold.  Are you representing the

             22           witness at this deposition?

             23                  MR. GOLD:  Yes.

             24   BY MR. GARBUS:

             25           Q.     Did you retain Proskauer to

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              1                         Schumann

              2   represent you at this deposition, Mr. Schumann?

              3           A.     Are you asking did I hire them to

              4   represent me?

              5           Q.     Yes.

              6           A.     No.

              7           Q.     Did they volunteer to represent you?

              8           A.     I guess that is not entirely clear

              9   to me.

             10           Q.     Do you know why they are here today

             11   on your behalf?

             12           A.     I believe I, if I understand this

             13   process correctly, I at some degree are here on

             14   their behalf.

             15   RL      Q.     You are Proskauer's witness?

             16   DI             MR. GOLD:  He is not here as a legal

             17           expert and so I am going to put an end to

             18           this.  If you want legal advice, see your

             19           colleagues.  They will be happy to help

             20           you.

             21                  MR. GARBUS:  I didn't ask him for

             22           legal advice.

             23                  MR. GOLD:  Yes, you did.  You

             24           asked him for legal conclusions and I am

             25           going to put a stop to it.  We let it go

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           for a while to see if we can divert your

              3           attention to something relevant.  We

              4           haven't succeeded, so I have to object.

              5           Q.     Have you or the MPAA or any of the

              6   plaintiffs, to your knowledge, gotten information

              7   from any third parties, at any time, concerning the

              8   quality of the movie that has been decrypted from a

              9   DVD?

             10                  MR. GOLD:  Answer that question

             11           "yes" or "no."  If you would, sir.

             12                  THE WITNESS:  Can you read back

             13           the question for me, please.

             14                  (Record read.)

             15                  MR. GOLD:  If you have any

             16           information, answer "yes."  If you don't

             17           know anything about that question, answer

             18           "no."

             19           A.     Yes.

             20   RL      Q.     What is that information?

             21   DI             MR. GOLD:  I am going to object on

             22           the basis of the work product privilege and

             23           the attorney-client privilege.

             24           Q.     Did you obtain that information

             25   prior to January 14th?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     Can you read the original question

              3   back again?

              4                  (Record read.)

              5           A.     The answer is "yes."

              6           Q.     Was that information ever contained

              7   in a written report or a letter or any document?

              8                  MR. GOLD:  That's a "yes" or "no."

              9           A.     That's actually "I don't know,"

             10   without checking detailed records.  I don't know.

             11           Q.     In other words, records in your

             12   file?

             13           A.     That's correct.

             14                  MR. GARBUS:  Will you produce that

             15           document if it exists, Mr. Gold?

             16                  MR. GOLD:  No.  I believe it is

             17           subject to the work product privilege.

             18           Q.     From whom did you receive this

             19   information prior to January 14th?

             20                  MR. GOLD:  That's just a name.

             21           A.     I actually don't recall a detailed

             22   name.  It would have been from the development logs

             23   or development records as previously discussed.

             24           Q.     So it was not from someone at the

             25   MPAA?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     No.

              3           Q.     Did you ever try to contact any of

              4   the people whose names are set forth in Exhibits B

              5   and C in those development logs?

              6           A.     No.

              7           Q.     Did you ever try and determine for

              8   yourself what the quality of a DVD is that is being

              9   shown after it has had DeCSS applied to it?

             10                  MR. GOLD:  That's a "yes" or a

             11           "no."

             12           A.     Can I ask for a clarification of the

             13   question?

             14                  MR. GOLD:  You don't understand

             15           the question?  Listen to the question.

             16           If you don't understand it, just say so.

             17                  (Record read.)

             18           A.     I'm sorry.  That question doesn't

             19   make sense to me.

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  Can I hear the

             21           question again?

             22                  (Record read.)

             23   BY MR. GARBUS:

             24           Q.     Have you ever tried to make a

             25   determination as to the quality of a film that is

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              1                         Schumann

              2   shown from an original DVD that is now being shown

              3   because DeCSS has "broken the code"?

              4                  MR. GOLD:  You can answer that

              5           "yes or "no."

              6           A.     No.

              7           Q.     Do you know if anyone at the MPAA

              8   ever has?

              9                  MR. GOLD:  You can answer.

             10           A.     I have no knowledge.

             11           Q.     Do you know if anyone at the seven

             12   plaintiffs, other than Time Warner, have?

             13           A.     I have no knowledge.

             14           Q.     Have you ever seen any reports from

             15   either the MPAA or any of the other seven

             16   plaintiffs?

             17                  MR. GOLD:  Yes or no.

             18           A.     I have no knowledge.

             19           Q.     Do you know what DVD CCA is?

             20           A.     Yes.

             21           Q.     What is that?

             22           A.     It is the licensing or

             23   administration authority for CSS.

             24           Q.     Who are the organizations, to your

             25   knowledge, that are involved with DVD CCA?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I don't know the exact corporate

              3   entity, corporate structure.

              4           Q.     Do you know who sits on their board?

              5           A.     Not in detail, no.

              6           Q.     Do you know who the head of it is?

              7           A.     I believe it is John Hoy.

              8           Q.     Do you know how many employees it

              9   has?

             10           A.     I do not.

             11           Q.     Do you know where its offices are?

             12           A.     No, I don't.  I think they are in

             13   L.A.

             14           Q.     Prior to the time that the MPAA sent

             15   out cease and desist letters, did you have any

             16   discussion with them concerning those cease and

             17   desist letters?

             18           A.     With --

             19           Q.     With the MPAA.

             20           A.     I did not.

             21           Q.     Do you know to whom cease and desist

             22   letters were sent?

             23           A.     I do not.

             24           Q.     Do you know how many cease and

             25   desist letters were sent?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I do not.

              3           Q.     Do you know whether the cease and

              4   desist letters were sent by the MPAA or the studios

              5   themselves?

              6           A.     I do not, no.

              7           Q.     Do you know if there was any

              8   response to the cease and desist letters?

              9           A.     I know that some sites went off

             10   line.

             11           Q.     Did you ever see any of the

             12   responses, any written responses to any of the

             13   request?

             14           A.     To the MPAA cease and desist

             15   letters?

             16           Q.     Yes.

             17           A.     I don't believe so.

             18                  MR. GARBUS:  Will you produce

             19           those files, Mr. Gold?

             20                  MR. GOLD:  What files?

             21                  MR. GARBUS:  The cease and desist

             22           letters, any responses to the cease and

             23           desist letters, and any correspondence

             24           relating to the cease and desist letters.

             25                  MR. GOLD:  Correspondence between?

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              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GARBUS:  Presumably between

              3           whoever sent the cease and desist letters

              4           and whoever received them.

              5                  MR. GOLD:  Yes to all those

              6           questions.  We should have them soon.

              7                  MR. GARBUS:  Pardon.  In other

              8           words, you will produce them?

              9                  MR. GOLD:  You asked me three

             10           times and I said "yes" to all three

             11           requests, and I think they will be

             12           produced real soon.

             13                  MR. GARBUS:  Do you know when?

             14                  MR. GOLD:  I don't know if they

             15           have arrived to my office yet, so I

             16           can't.

             17   BY MR. GARBUS:

             18           Q.     Do you know who selected which sites

             19   to get cease and desist letters?

             20           A.     No.

             21           Q.     Do you know whether or not --

             22                  MR. GOLD:  Hold on for a second.

             23                  (Recess taken.)

             24                  MR. GARBUS:  Read back what I have

             25           so far.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  (Record read.)

              3   BY MR. GARBUS:

              4           Q.     -- the MPAA has done any

              5   investigation or examination into Linux's attempts

              6   to build a DVD player?

              7           A.     Other than what I performed?

              8           Q.     Yes.

              9           A.     No.

             10           Q.     So you have no knowledge one way or

             11   the other?

             12           A.     That's correct.

             13           Q.     And that would be true if I were to

             14   ask that with respect to the seven studios, as

             15   well?

             16           A.     That's correct.

             17           Q.     And that would be true, to your

             18   knowledge, if I asked that with respect to

             19   Proskauer, as well?

             20           A.     Yes.

             21           Q.     Have you ever had any business

             22   relationship with anyone at Linux or any of the

             23   open source companies?

             24           A.     I have not.

             25           Q.     When for the first time did you use

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              1                         Schumann

              2   a Linux system?

              3           A.     I believe it was August or

              4   September.

              5           Q.     So that was not specifically for the

              6   purposes -- had nothing to do, then, with your

              7   being retained by the MPAA.  That was before that?

              8           A.     That's correct.

              9           Q.     Did you have any discussion with the

             10   MPAA in November or December concerning Linux's

             11   attempted development of a DVD player?

             12                  MR. GOLD:  Answer that "yes" or

             13           "no."

             14           A.     From November to December?

             15           Q.     Yes.

             16           A.     Yes.

             17           Q.     Tell me what that conversation was.

             18                  MR. GOLD:  That is subject to the

             19           work product privilege.

             20           Q.     Who did you have the conversation

             21   with?

             22           A.     Mark Litvack.

             23           Q.     Who is he?

             24           A.     He is, I believe, a counsel for the

             25   MPAA.

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              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Do you have any notes or memorandum

              3   of the various conversations you have had with the

              4   various people at the MPAA?

              5           A.     I believe I have some notes about

              6   the conversations I had, yes.

              7           Q.     Did you ever speak to anybody at the

              8   MPAA, other than their counsel?

              9           A.     I believe, as I indicated earlier

             10   this morning, one of the conversations there was, I

             11   believe, an additional individual on the phone.

             12           Q.     Never any independent conversation?

             13           A.     No independent conversations, that's

             14   correct.

             15                  MR. GARBUS:  Off the record.

             16                  (Discussion off the record.)

             17   BY MR. GARBUS:

             18           Q.     Do you know if the members of MORE

             19   supplied the code or the DeCSS to the Livid team

             20   working on the development of the Linux DVD player?

             21           A.     Please clarify what you mean by --

             22           Q.     DeCSS?

             23           A.     In what -- it appears in many forms.

             24           Q.     How many forms does it appear in?

             25           A.     At least two or three.  It appears

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              1                         Schumann

              2   as a source as executable.

              3           Q.     And?

              4           A.     I am aware they made it available on

              5   the Linux forums as executable, as Windows

              6   executable.

              7           Q.     When you say "they made it

              8   available," you mean the MORE group?

              9           A.     Apparently.  I mean have no personal

             10   knowledge.

             11           Q.     You saw this from reading the

             12   material on the website?

             13           A.     And the statements of the -- I mean

             14   there were some statements in the press, as well by

             15   the people purporting to be members of MORE.

             16           Q.     And the people who purported to be

             17   members of MORE claim, as you saw, that they gave

             18   the code in executable form to the DVD people to

             19   help develop a Linux DVD player; is that right?

             20           A.     This is what they claimed, yes.

             21           Q.     Do you know if that is true?

             22           A.     In my professional opinion --

             23           Q.     I didn't ask for your opinion.  I

             24   asked do you know whether or not it is true.

             25                  MR. GOLD:  Whether or not it is

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              1                         Schumann

              2           true that what?

              3                  MR. GARBUS:  That MORE supplied

              4           the executable code to people working on

              5           developing an open source Linux DVD

              6           player.

              7           A.     They did supply it on those

              8   development forums.

              9           Q.     When for the first time did they

             10   provide it?

             11           A.     It was -- if I recall, it was early

             12   October of 1999.

             13           Q.     Is that the same -- you say early

             14   October of 1999?

             15           A.     Yes.

             16           Q.     You are talking about the first ten

             17   days?

             18           A.     I believe.  I have to look at

             19   detailed notes.

             20           Q.     When for the first time, when you

             21   say you would have to look at detailed notes, which

             22   notes are you talking about?

             23           A.     The report I discussed earlier where

             24   I discuss the results of looking at these 3 inches

             25   of paper.

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              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     How soon --

              3                  MR. GOLD:  Hold on a second.

              4                  (Witness consulted with counsel.)

              5           Q.     So far as you know, is the

              6   communication by MORE to the Linux people at the

              7   same time that DeCSS was made available, made

              8   public?

              9           A.     It was posted in a public forum.

             10           Q.     In which forum was it posted for the

             11   first time?

             12           A.     I don't know that offhand.

             13   Actually, I don't know the answer to that.

             14           Q.     Was it the Linux forum?

             15           A.     I don't know that.

             16           Q.     So far as you know, the first

             17   posting of DeCSS may have been on the Linux forum?

             18           A.     May have been.

             19           Q.     Do you have any reason to believe

             20   otherwise?

             21           A.     I don't believe so.

             22           Q.     What does the term "anonymous

             23   source" mean?

             24           A.     In my experience, it refers to

             25   source code whose author deliberately disguises

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              1                         Schumann

              2   their identity.

              3           Q.     To your knowledge, with respect to

              4   DeCSS, is there an individual who has said that he

              5   is the "anonymous source" for that code?

              6           A.     No.

              7           Q.     Have you made any investigation --

              8   by "you" I mean the eight movie studios other than

              9   Time Warner -- into who posted the anonymous source

             10   code?

             11                  MR. GOLD:  I think that is subject

             12           to the work product.

             13           Q.     Did you make any investigation prior

             14   to being retained by the MPAA?

             15                  MR. GOLD:  In 1999.

             16           A.     No.  I made no --

             17           Q.     Did you make any investigation once

             18   the MPAA retained you?

             19                  MR. GOLD:  Yes or no?

             20           A.     No.

             21           Q.     Do you know if anyone at the MPAA

             22   made any investigation?

             23                  MR. GOLD:  Yes or no?

             24           A.     I have no knowledge.

             25           Q.     Do you know whether anyone at the

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              1                         Schumann

              2   other eight studios, other than Time Warner?

              3           A.     I have no knowledge.

              4                  MR. GOLD:  Are there eight

              5           studios?

              6                  MR. HART:  I think there are eight

              7           plaintiffs.

              8                  MR. GARBUS:  Off the record.

              9                  (Discussion off the record.)

             10   BY MR. GARBUS:

             11           Q.     Do you know how many members of the

             12   MPAA there are?

             13           A.     I do not know that, no.

             14           Q.     Did you ever see the website on

             15   which Frank Stevenson published DeCSS?

             16           A.     Do you have a name for that?

             17           Q.     http/crypto.GQNU/

             18           A.     I don't believe I know that website.

             19           Q.     Do you know how many universities

             20   have received cease and desist letters in this

             21   case?

             22           A.     No knowledge.

             23           Q.     Do you know how many scientists have

             24   received cease and desist letters from the

             25   plaintiffs?

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              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I have no knowledge.

              3           Q.     Do you know how many universities or

              4   scientists or other institutions posted the DeCSS

              5   code prior to January 14th?

              6           A.     No.

              7           Q.     Do you know how many now do?

              8           A.     No.

              9           Q.     Have you ever had any conversation

             10   with anyone at any of the universities that have

             11   posted this information on their sites?

             12           A.     No.

             13           Q.     Do you recall seeing in the

             14   Stevenson affidavit his claim that this was a very

             15   weak security system?

             16           A.     Yes.

             17           Q.     Do you create security systems?

             18           A.     I myself do not create the

             19   encryption codes, but I do help develop overall

             20   security systems.

             21           Q.     Were you involved in the development

             22   of CSS?

             23           A.     I was not.

             24           Q.     Now, you said in your affidavit that

             25   everyone knew that the breaking of CSS was

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   inevitable.  Do you remember using that word,

              3   "inevitable"?

              4           A.     No, but I will -- if you point it

              5   out, I will --

              6           Q.     Do you agree with that or not?

              7           A.     Yes.

              8           Q.     When you say "inevitable," what do

              9   you mean by that?

             10           A.     It is certain to happen.

             11           Q.     Why?

             12           A.     Because all security systems have

             13   historically proven to inevitably fail.

             14           Q.     Do you know, let's say with respect

             15   to Universal, what their loss is due each year

             16   to -- let's use the term -- Hong Kong pirates or

             17   Asian copying, actual copying of DVDs?

             18           A.     I have no knowledge of figures like

             19   that.

             20           Q.     Would your answer be the same if I

             21   were to ask you the same question about each of the

             22   studios?

             23           A.     Yes.

             24           Q.     With respect to the losses that

             25   Universal suffers as a result of copying or

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              1                         Schumann

              2   pirating, do you know the percentage of loss that

              3   comes from rippers or people who just copy the DVDs

              4   in Hong Kong or wherever?  In other words, do you

              5   know the breakdown?

              6           A.     I do not.

              7           Q.     And your answer would be the same

              8   with respect to each of the other companies?

              9           A.     Yes.

             10           Q.     And with respect to the MPAA?

             11           A.     No.

             12           Q.     Various of the plaintiffs in this

             13   case earn search engines; is that right?

             14           A.     Various of the plaintiffs in this

             15   case own --

             16           Q.     Disney owns Infoseek; is that right?

             17           A.     I have no detailed knowledge, but I

             18   am aware they own websites and web properties.

             19           Q.     Do the other plaintiffs also own

             20   websites and web properties?

             21           A.     I presume they would.

             22           Q.     With respect to the Disney site, do

             23   you know whether the Disney site links to any DeCSS

             24   postings?

             25           A.     I have no knowledge.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     To your knowledge, has anyone at the

              3   MPAA tried to determine whether the Disney site

              4   links to specific DeCSS postings?

              5           A.     I have no knowledge.

              6           Q.     Do you know what strings are?

              7           A.     Strings?

              8           Q.     Yes.

              9           A.     In the computer sense?

             10           Q.     Yes.

             11           A.     I believe so, yes.

             12           Q.     Tell me what they are.

             13           A.     Strings is typically a term used to

             14   define a sequence of text characters.

             15           Q.     Do you know whether the Disney

             16   search engine, for example, will do a search if you

             17   put in DeCSS?

             18           A.     If Disney has a search engine, which

             19   I will believe is true, I would presume it would.

             20           Q.     And do you know how many sites then

             21   come up under the Disney search?

             22           A.     I have no knowledge.

             23           Q.     Is your answer "no knowledge," would

             24   that be true with respect to any of the other

             25   plaintiffs in this case?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     Yes, that's correct.

              3           Q.     Do you know if the Disney search

              4   engine will take you to CSS.auth?

              5           A.     I have no knowledge.

              6           Q.     CSS.cat?

              7           A.     I have no knowledge.

              8           Q.     Do you have any knowledge of how

              9   many people have downloaded or taken off --

             10                  (Telephone interruption.)

             11   BY MR. GARBUS:

             12           Q.     -- downloaded DeCSS?

             13                  MR. GOLD:  I object to the form.

             14                  MR. GARBUS:  Pardon me?

             15                  MR. GOLD:  I object to the form of

             16           the question.

             17           Q.     Do you know how many people have

             18   read, viewed or seen, as of today, the DeCSS code?

             19                  MR. GOLD:  You mean how many

             20           people in the country have?

             21                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

             22           A.     I mean I have no knowledge.

             23           Q.     Is there any way of determining

             24   that?

             25           A.     Not effectively or not completely.

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              1                         Schumann

              2   RL      Q.     How would you start?

              3   DI             MR. GOLD:  I am going to object to

              4           this, because I have given you a lot of

              5           leeway all through the day, but I notice

              6           this afternoon you are really picking this

              7           up.

              8                  Mr. Schumann has not been designated

              9           as a witness with respect to this area, but

             10           the other witness that you are deposing

             11           this week has been designated in this area.

             12                  MR. GARBUS:  Which area are you

             13           talking about?

             14                  MR. GOLD:  The business of finding

             15           out of who is or is not doing something,

             16           as spelled out in our Complaints.

             17                  Who is doing relatively linking,

             18           relatively posting, what efforts have

             19           been made to stop proliferation to stop

             20           DVD piracy.  That's another witness

             21           that has been designated for that.

             22                  MR. GARBUS:  Can I hear the last

             23           question and answer, please.

             24                  (Record read.)

             25   BY MR. GARBUS:

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              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Mr. Stevenson says, "To my

              3   knowledge, DeCSS and similar CSS descrambling

              4   programs have been available to any interested

              5   person with a working knowledge of the internet and

              6   web and how to utilize search engines since at

              7   least mid-October 1999."

              8                  Is that true?

              9           A.     That sounds likely.

             10           Q.     And then he says that "I think a

             11   paper about the efforts of the Livid forum and

             12   other related and unrelated individuals in

             13   connection with CSS and DVDs will provide extremely

             14   useful information for a wide variety of

             15   individuals, scientists, and academics, including

             16   cryptologists and persons interested in the DVD

             17   media."

             18                  Do you agree with that statement?

             19           A.     Is that a statement when he refers

             20   to his paper?

             21           Q.     No.  He is talking about why he

             22   should do his paper.  Take a look at the first two

             23   sentences.

             24           A.     I'm sorry.

             25           Q.     Let me read the first two sentences.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   Here is what he says in Paragraph 14.

              3                  "In addition to the CCS-related

              4   crypto analysis and other informational papers that

              5   I have already published on the internet, I plan to

              6   publish a paper concerning the cracking of CSS and

              7   the development of video and DVD playback capacity

              8   for the Linux machines in an academic and/or

              9   industry-related journal."

             10                  Then he says, "I think a paper about

             11   the efforts of the Livid forum and other related

             12   and unrelated individuals in connection with CSS

             13   and DVDs will provide extremely useful information

             14   for a wide variety of individuals, scientists, and

             15   academists, including cryptologists and persons

             16   interested in the DVD media."

             17                  Do you agree with that?

             18           A.     I presume that paper would be of

             19   interest, yes.

             20           Q.     Why would it be of interest?

             21           A.     It's clearly an area that is an area

             22   of, I guess, hot development, if you will, or

             23   interesting development and is, at this point,

             24   obviously gotten attention.

             25           Q.     When you say "hot," what do you mean

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   by "hot"?

              3           A.     Hot as an area of development

              4   activity.

              5           Q.     Be more specific.  Can you?

              6           A.     By "hot," I referred to by having

              7   public focus on it, if you will.

              8           Q.     And it being significant in the area

              9   of cryptology?

             10           A.     The technical analysis of how CSS

             11   works and its deficiencies is clearly an area of

             12   interest to cryptologists.

             13           Q.     Why?

             14           A.     Because that's how cryptologists and

             15   the security field learn, is from the mistakes of

             16   others.

             17           Q.     Can you tell me something more about

             18   that?

             19                  MR. GOLD:  I object to the form.

             20           A.     It is a well-known -- fact isn't the

             21   right word.

             22                  It is a well-known saying or

             23   axiom -- probably not the right word either -- in

             24   the security industry that cryptographic algorithms

             25   that are not publicly reviewed have historically

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              1                         Schumann

              2   proven to be weak.

              3           Q.     Why is that?

              4           A.     Because there is no opportunity for

              5   a larger community to review and analyze those

              6   algorithms.

              7                  MR. GARBUS:  Let's take a

              8           two-minute break.

              9                  (Recess taken.)

             10   BY MR. GARBUS:

             11           Q.     What is the value of having a larger

             12   community review codes for encryption materials?

             13           A.     In the encryption field, you get a

             14   larger group of people who can review the

             15   algorithms and the mechanisms employed.

             16           Q.     Do you read academic journals

             17   relating to cryptography?

             18           A.     Yes.

             19           Q.     What academic journals do you mean?

             20           A.     I read some of the ACM journals on

             21   communications and the occasional IEEE journal.

             22           Q.     Tell me something about the ACM

             23   journal.  What is that?

             24           A.     They tend to be very -- they are

             25   very scholarly-oriented journals, typically dealing

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              1                         Schumann

              2   with theoretical problems or more theoretical

              3   problems.

              4           Q.     When you say "scholarly," do you

              5   mean this goes to primarily universities?

              6           A.     I think they are read outside the

              7   universities, but they are written in a university

              8   or a -- the papers are typically written in a

              9   university or scholarly fashion.

             10           Q.     By university people?

             11           A.     Sometimes.

             12           Q.     When you say they go outside the

             13   universities, you mean they are in the universities

             14   and then outside or just outside the universities?

             15           A.     These journals have wide

             16   circulations.

             17           Q.     And the ACM is a respected journal?

             18   The most respected in its field?

             19           A.     I believe it has many journals.

             20           Q.     Can you tell me what some of those

             21   journals are?

             22           A.     I don't know.  There are many on

             23   different topics, on multi-process source, on

             24   communications, on software development, and a slew

             25   of others.

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              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     How long has ACM been around?

              3           A.     I don't know exactly.  It's

              4   definitely one of the most respected associations

              5   in the computer field.

              6           Q.     Does the name Barbara Simons mean

              7   anything to you?

              8           A.     Only in relation to her affidavit.

              9           Q.     Had you ever heard of her before?

             10           A.     Not that struck me in particular.

             11           Q.     Getting back to Stevenson --

             12                  Have you seen Barbara Simmons

             13   statement that they intend to publish an article on

             14   DeCSS and --

             15           A.     I'm sorry.  Whose statement?

             16           Q.     Did you see Barbara.  I'm sorry I

             17   have the name wrong.

             18                  Did you see Frank Stevenson's

             19   statement that he intends to public an article?

             20           A.     If it's in his affidavit, then yes,

             21   I saw that statement.

             22           Q.     And that any article analyzing the

             23   DeCSS source code would in necessity have to

             24   include the code itself?

             25           A.     It would certainly include portions

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              1                         Schumann

              2   of the code.

              3           Q.     But you could see the value of

              4   including the entire code?

              5           A.     Not necessarily.

              6           Q.     In your judgment, in order to make

              7   the article meaningful, would you tell someone like

              8   Stevenson you can publish 50 percent of the code?

              9   20 percent of the code?

             10           A.     It would be simplistic to put it in

             11   such a form.

             12           Q.     Can you give me a further response?

             13                  MR. GOLD:  Objection to the form.

             14           Q.     It would be inappropriate to tell

             15   him.  Is that what you are saying, that you can use

             16   X percent or Y percent?

             17           A.     Yes.

             18           Q.     And it would be inappropriate to

             19   tell Barbara Simons or the ACM that you should

             20   either take 50 percent or 20 percent or 80 percent?

             21   It would be their judgment as to what is necessary

             22   for the article; is that right?

             23           A.     That would appear to be reasonable,

             24   in my understanding.

             25   RL      Q.     You don't presume to know more than

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              1                         Schumann

              2   Mr. Stevenson about cryptography and what ought to

              3   be in articles that are written?

              4                  MR. GOLD:  Objection to the form

              5           of the question.  Read the question back,

              6           please.

              7                  (Record read.)

              8   DI             MR. GOLD:  I direct the witness not

              9           to answer it.  I find it offensive.  If you

             10           want to take me up on it, go ahead.

             11           Q.     He says that DVDs have been playable

             12   on Linux machines since October 1999.

             13                  Do you know whether that is true or

             14   not?

             15           A.     The development logs talked about

             16   people playing movies even prior to that date, I

             17   believe.

             18           Q.     Before DeCSS?

             19           A.     That's correct.

             20           Q.     Do you know what the relationship is

             21   of DeCSS to the possibility of playing DVDs more

             22   effectively on Linux machines?

             23                  MR. GOLD:  Read that back.

             24                  (Record read.)

             25                  MR. GOLD:  Is that a question that

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              1                         Schumann

              2           is understandable to you?

              3                  THE WITNESS:  I don't understand

              4           exactly.

              5           Q.     Do you know what a DOD's stripper

              6   is?

              7           A.     DOD's Ripper?

              8           Q.     Yes.

              9                  MR. GOLD:  Which one?  Ripper or

             10           stripper?

             11                  MR. GARBUS:  Ripper.

             12           A.     You are referring to the program

             13   called DOD's Ripper?

             14           Q.     Yes.

             15           A.     I have heard of that program, yes.

             16           Q.     That predates DeCSS?

             17           A.     I believe it did, yes.

             18           Q.     By how long?

             19           A.     Perhaps several months, if memory

             20   recalls.

             21           Q.     So the DOD's Ripper was the first

             22   utility that permitted the decryption of CSS?

             23           A.     I don't know if that is the way that

             24   functioned.

             25           Q.     You don't know one way or the other?

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              2           A.     (No response.)

              3           Q.     Do you know what I mean when I use

              4   the word "utility"?

              5           A.     I understand.

              6           Q.     What do you understand it to mean?

              7           A.     Utility is a tool.

              8           Q.     Do you know what a Power Ripper is?

              9           A.     It is another tool.

             10           Q.     What does that enable the user to do

             11   relative to DVDs?

             12           A.     To my understanding, it allowed the

             13   storing of a stream being played back using, I

             14   believe it was, a particular DVD player, software.

             15           Q.     When was Power Ripper first made

             16   available?

             17           A.     I believe it was also several months

             18   prior.

             19           Q.     To DeCSS?

             20           A.     Yes.

             21           Q.     Mr. Stevenson further says, and I

             22   think you have agreed to this already, "To date --"

             23   and the date of his affidavit is April 27th

             24   "-- although as explained below, the technology

             25   exists to make either expensive or poor quality

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              2   copies using DeCSS, I see no direct evidence

              3   indicating any commercial piracy using that

              4   utility."

              5                  Do you agree with that?

              6                  MR. GOLD:  That he hasn't seen

              7           any?

              8           Q.     Do you agree with that statement?

              9                  MR. GOLD:  The statement says what

             10           this man has or hasn't seen.

             11           Q.     Have you seen any direct evidence

             12   indicating any commercial piracy?

             13           A.     I'm sorry.  I lost what the question

             14   was.  Are you asking me to comment on what Frank

             15   Stevenson knows or does not know?

             16                  MR. GOLD:  I didn't understand

             17           that to be his question, so I guess -- it

             18           sounded like it, but I don't think that

             19           was his question.

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  We will mark as

             21           Exhibit 3 the Declaration of Matt

             22           Pavlovich.  We will mark as 4 the

             23           Declaration of Chris DiBona.  We will

             24           mark as Exhibit 5 the Declaration of

             25           Frank Stevenson, and we will mark as 6

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              2           the Declaration of David Wagner, and 7

              3           will be Gilmore.

              4                  (Defendants' Exhibit 3, Declaration

              5           of Matt Pavlovich, marked for

              6           identification, as of this date.)

              7                  (Defendants' Exhibit 4, Declaration

              8           of Chris DiBona, marked for identification,

              9           as of this date.)

             10                  (Defendants' Exhibit 5, Declaration

             11           of Frank Stevenson, marked for

             12           identification, as of this date.)

             13                  (Defendants' Exhibit 6, Declaration

             14           of David Wagner, marked for identification,

             15           as of this date.)

             16                  (Defendants' Exhibit 7, Declaration

             17           of Gilmore, marked for identification, as

             18           of this date.)

             19                  MR. GARBUS:  Please mark this as

             20           Exhibit 8.

             21                  (Defendants' Exhibit 8, Declaration

             22           of Bruce Schneier, marked for

             23           identification, as of this date.)

             24   BY MR. GARBUS:

             25           Q.     You previously talked about the

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              2   value to the academic community of information

              3   about encryption or the way CSS works; is that

              4   right?

              5           A.     I think I talked about the value of

              6   encryption algorithms and how they work.

              7           Q.     What did you learn from seeing

              8   DeCSS, if anything?

              9           A.     From DeCSS, the executable, I

             10   learned nothing more than I could make an

             11   unencrypted copy.

             12           Q.     Did it teach you anything that might

             13   help you in the security business?

             14                  MR. GOLD:  Did what teach him?

             15                  MR. GARBUS:  Seeing the way in

             16           which DeCSS was arrived at or how CSS was

             17           structured.

             18           A.     Not to me personally, no.  This is

             19   the source code of DeCSS?

             20           Q.     Or the executable code.

             21           A.     No.  Nothing in particular.

             22           Q.     I address your attention to

             23   Paragraphs 18 and 19 of the DiBona affidavit.

             24           A.     Okay.

             25           Q.     Did you ever do what he has

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              2   described there?

              3           A.     Yes, I have.

              4           Q.     Does it work in the way that he

              5   described it there?

              6           A.     Yes, it does.

              7           Q.     So that means, does it not, that

              8   anybody who is watching a DVD with a computer can

              9   decide to put the material from the DVD onto his

             10   computer unscrambled?

             11           A.     The scrambled material?

             12           Q.     Yes.

             13           A.     Using that mechanism?

             14           Q.     Yes.

             15           A.     Yes.

             16           Q.     Once the computer has it, are there

             17   a variety of ways to unscramble it?

             18           A.     Can you hazard in what sense?

             19           Q.     Does "XING" mean anything to you?

             20           A.     I believe it's a -- XING was a

             21   manufacturer of computer software.

             22           Q.     Do you know the relationship between

             23   XING and the showing of scrambled DVDs?

             24           A.     As different from regular DVDs?

             25           Q.     Yes.

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              2           A.     There is no difference.

              3                  MR. GARBUS:  Can I hear the last

              4           question?

              5                  (Record read.)

              6   BY MR. GARBUS:

              7           Q.     Can you use XING to play the

              8   scrambled files off a hard disk?

              9           A.     I have no knowledge.

             10           Q.     Have you ever tried it?

             11           A.     No.

             12           Q.     Do you know whether you can use

             13   XING, therefore, to show a DVD that has been put

             14   onto the hard disk?

             15           A.     A scrambled DVD?

             16           Q.     Yes.

             17           A.     I have no firsthand knowledge.

             18           Q.     When you say you have no firsthand

             19   knowledge, did you ever have any discussion with

             20   anyone at the MPAA about it?

             21           A.     I have not.

             22           Q.     Do you have any secondhand

             23   knowledge?

             24           A.     I have my technical understanding of

             25   the structures in question.

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              2           Q.     What is your understanding?

              3           A.     That a DVD disk would be required to

              4   play the scrambled content.

              5           Q.     I address your attention to

              6   Paragraph 21, DiBona, which you have in front of

              7   you.  We just looked at 18 and 19.  The last

              8   sentence says --

              9                  MR. GOLD:  Next-to-last paragraph?

             10                  MR. GARBUS:  Last paragraph, last

             11           sentence.

             12           Q.     It says, "It may even be possible to

             13   make a CSS-equipped DVD player run the encrypted

             14   VOB files directly off a hard drive without the

             15   benefit of any assisted software."

             16           A.     You mean -- I guess --

             17                  I don't know what he means by --

             18   this is not definitive enough for me to comment on.

             19           Q.     Look at the beginning of the

             20   paragraph and see if that helps you with your

             21   understanding of the third sentence.

             22           A.     A legal CSS-equipped DVD player, to

             23   my knowledge, would not play crypted VOB files

             24   without the existence of the disk, of a source

             25   disk, DVD.

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              2           Q.     CSS-auth is a way to decrypt DVDs;

              3   is that right?

              4           A.     Not to my knowledge.

              5           Q.     What is it used for?

              6           A.     It is a mechanism for unlocking the

              7   DVD drive.

              8           Q.     How does it do that?

              9           A.     Through a sequence of commands to

             10   the drive firmware.

             11           Q.     What about CSS-cat?

             12                  MR. GOLD:  What is your question?

             13           Q.     How does that function?

             14           A.     I have no knowledge of how CSS-cat

             15   works.

             16           Q.     Do you know what an ATI capture card

             17   is?

             18           A.     I do not.

             19           Q.     You have never heard that term

             20   before?

             21           A.     I have heard of "ATI" and I have

             22   heard the term "capture card," but never together.

             23           Q.     What do the words "capture card"

             24   mean?

             25           A.     Typically used to describe a board

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              2   that captures video or audio.

              3           Q.     Who is ATI?

              4           A.     ATI is a manufacturer of computer

              5   equipment.

              6           Q.     Does ATI make a capture card?

              7           A.     I have no detailed knowledge of

              8   that.

              9           Q.     Do you know whether or not capture

             10   cards could be used to copy DVDs?

             11           A.     To copy DVDs?

             12           Q.     Yes.

             13           A.     In the sense of DeCSS?

             14           Q.     Yes.

             15           A.     No.

             16           Q.     No knowledge?

             17           A.     No, they could not be used.

             18           Q.     Could they do it in a different way?

             19           A.     Potentially, yes.

             20           Q.     How?

             21           A.     They could capture the analog

             22   output.

             23           Q.     How do they do that?

             24           A.     I presume they would take the input

             25   from a video, from a monitor, or from a TV.

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              2           Q.     Do you know whether ATI capture

              3   cards or capture cards have been used to watch

              4   DVDs?

              5           A.     To watch DVDs?

              6           Q.     Yes.

              7           A.     I have no knowledge of the cards, so

              8   I have no idea of how they would be used.

              9           Q.     Do you know who else makes capture

             10   cards besides ATI?

             11           A.     I have no detailed knowledge of that

             12   market.

             13           Q.     I direct your attention to Paragraph

             14   25 of Frank Stevenson's affidavit, line 2 where he

             15   says, "No readily available removable home computer

             16   storage medium can store the amount of data

             17   represented by a full-length feature film."

             18                  MR. GOLD:  You mean line 3,

             19           sentence 2?

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

             21           Q.     Do you agree with that?

             22           A.     No.

             23           Q.     Tell me what home storage medium is

             24   available?

             25           A.     I believe and have seen in the past

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              2   that there are a variety of tape drives.

              3           Q.     For example?

              4           A.     I believe my affidavit describes one

              5   and I would have to look for detailed names of

              6   others.

              7           Q.     Are we talking about DAT tapes?

              8           A.     I believe DAT tapes are fairly

              9   expensive.

             10           Q.     Were you just referring to DAT

             11   tapes?

             12           A.     I believe there are other

             13   technologies that are cheaper.

             14           Q.     For example?

             15           A.     Again, I would have to look in

             16   detail.

             17           Q.     Have you ever seen a movie played

             18   from a DAT tape?

             19           A.     Have I ever seen a movie played from

             20   a DAT tape?

             21           Q.     Yes.

             22           A.     No, I have not.

             23           Q.     Do you know if that has been done?

             24           A.     I have no knowledge of that.

             25           Q.     Is there any personal computer in

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              2   the United States or elsewhere that is presently on

              3   sale with a drive that can write to a DVD?

              4           A.     I'm sure they exist.

              5           Q.     Name one.

              6           A.     I know that there are people who

              7   write -- who make DVD offering systems that sell

              8   them on PC's with DVD-R drives already inserted.

              9           Q.     Do you know of any of them?

             10           A.     I don't off the top of my head.

             11           Q.     Do you know what DVD-RW is?

             12           A.     It is a DVD writable disk.

             13           Q.     Can a DVD writable disk be played on

             14   a DVD player?

             15           A.     On some.

             16           Q.     Which ones?

             17           A.     I believe the newer DVD drives will

             18   play those disks.

             19           Q.     Take a look at Paragraph 27.

             20                  MR. GOLD:  Still on Mr. Stevenson?

             21                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

             22           Q.     The second sentence.  A movie

             23   consists of how many gigabytes of data?

             24           A.     It depends on the movie.

             25           Q.     Give me the variations.

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              2           A.     It varies widely depending on the

              3   compression algorithm of the content, the length of

              4   the movie, the additional items on the disk.

              5           Q.     Assuming that a movie consists of 4

              6   gigabytes of data, would it take more than 200

              7   hours to transfer a movie via standard 56K modem

              8   connection to the internet?

              9           A.     I haven't done the math.

             10           Q.     Do you know if anybody at the MPAA

             11   has?

             12           A.     I do not, no.  I have no knowledge.

             13           Q.     Have you ever seen any of the math

             14   done by anybody at the MPAA or anyone of the other

             15   seven studios?

             16           A.     I have not.

             17           Q.     Do you know if they ever did the

             18   math?

             19           A.     I have no knowledge.

             20           Q.     Has anyone ever told you that they

             21   did the math?

             22           A.     I have no knowledge.

             23           Q.     We are talking now both the studios

             24   and the MPAA?

             25           A.     That's correct.  I have no

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              2   knowledge.

              3           Q.     Have you ever seen a report -- can

              4   you do that math now as you sit here?

              5           A.     I could.

              6           Q.     Please do it.

              7           A.     Do you have a calculator?  Actually,

              8   I have one here.

              9                  (Witness complied with request.)

             10           A.     How large did you say the file was?

             11                  MR. HERNSTADT:  4 gigabytes,

             12           assume.

             13           A.     Okay.

             14           Q.     What is your answer?

             15           A.     Approximately 160 hours.

             16           Q.     Can you tell us how you arrived at

             17   that computation?

             18           A.     I took 4 gigabytes, multiplied it by

             19   8 to get gigabits, divided that by 56,000 bits per

             20   second.  This is not completely precise, but close

             21   enough, I assume.  I Divided by 56,000 bits per

             22   second, giving me the total number of seconds,

             23   divided that by 3,600, which is the number of

             24   seconds in an hour, to arrive at approximately 160

             25   hours.

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              2           Q.     If it were, let's say, a 6 gigabyte

              3   movie, can you tell me how long that would take?

              4           A.     About one and a half times 158

              5   hours.

              6           Q.     That would be --

              7           A.     225, I guess.

              8           Q.     Do you know the average number on

              9   most movies, DVD movies?

             10           A.     They are, I believe, typically

             11   between 4 and 6 gigabytes.

             12           Q.     Are there any that are 7?

             13           A.     I'm sure there are some.

             14           Q.     Can you give me a rough computation

             15   of how long it would take with a 7 gigabyte of

             16   data?

             17           A.     1.75 times 158.  So, 280 hours,

             18   approximately.

             19           Q.     Directing your attention to

             20   Paragraph 28 of the Stevenson affidavit, I will ask

             21   you whether it is so or not.

             22                  "The tools to copy DVDs are and have

             23   been available since prior to the posting of

             24   DeCSS."  Is that correct?

             25           A.     In what sense of copy?

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              2           Q.     Copy in the sense of copying so that

              3   people can look at the DVDs.  Either the Hong Kong

              4   type or DOD's Ripper or some of the other things we

              5   have mentioned.

              6           A.     There are tools that have existed,

              7   but they have very different end results.

              8           Q.     The next sentence, "There are tools

              9   that compress the DVD to the VCD format, making it

             10   possible to fit a much reduced quality version of

             11   the movie onto two CD roms."

             12                  Isn't that so?

             13           A.     Yes, a portion of the content.

             14           Q.     These disks can be made VCD

             15   compatible and playback may be possible on a VCD or

             16   even DVD players.

             17           A.     I have no personal knowledge of

             18   having seen that.

             19           Q.     Do you know how long it takes to do

             20   that?

             21           A.     I have no knowledge of how long.

             22           Q.     Have you ever heard the term "video

             23   capture card"?

             24           A.     I have.

             25           Q.     That's the same thing as a capture

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              2   card?

              3           A.     I presume.

              4           Q.     Have you ever seen a DVD compressed

              5   to VCD or DivX?

              6           A.     I have not.

              7           Q.     Do you have any idea of the quality

              8   of it?

              9           A.     I do not.

             10           Q.     Has anyone at the MPAA ever

             11   discussed that with you?

             12           A.     No.

             13           Q.     When will the bandwidth backbone be

             14   in place to permit the ordinary consumer to have a

             15   T3 line?

             16           A.     In many locations it already exists.

             17           Q.     Where is that?

             18           A.     Probably every university campus in

             19   the United States and in many foreign countries.

             20           Q.     How many private homes?

             21                  MR. GOLD:  Did you finish your

             22           answer to the question?

             23           A.     And in many corporations, as well.

             24           Q.     Any private consumers?

             25           A.     I imagine there are a few.

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              2           Q.     What is the cost of it right now?

              3           A.     It is very expensive.

              4           Q.     Tell me what that is, to run a T3

              5   line.

              6           A.     I imagine it's thousands of dollars

              7   a month.

              8           Q.     Do you know who runs T3 lines?  What

              9   company does that?

             10           A.     I'm sure there are a variety of

             11   them.

             12           Q.     Other than corporations, do you know

             13   any individual consumers that have T3 lines?

             14           A.     I'm not personally aware of any, no.

             15           Q.     We used the term before that the

             16   security system of CSS is a weak one.  Can you tell

             17   me what that word means in reference to this

             18   system?

             19           A.     Who had used that term?

             20                  MR. GOLD:  I don't understand the

             21           question.

             22                  MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Stevenson.

             23                  MR. GOLD:  Do you want to read

             24           that from the quote that you got that

             25           from?

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              2           Q.     In your opinion, is the CSS a weak

              3   system?

              4           A.     In what sense?

              5           Q.     Breakable.  Easily breakable.

              6           A.     To an average computer user?  To an

              7   average user?

              8           Q.     You tell me.  You break it down.  In

              9   other words, to someone who is, let's say,

             10   knowledgeable in cryptography.

             11           A.     To a small set of, I believe, highly

             12   experienced cryptologists, in hindsight, it is not

             13   the strongest algorithm.

             14           Q.     When you say it is not the

             15   strongest, don't you mean it is very weak?

             16           A.     Relative to what?

             17           Q.     You said, strongest relative to

             18   what.

             19                  MR. GOLD:  What is your question

             20           now?

             21           Q.     Does the name Jon Johansen mean

             22   anything to you?

             23           A.     Yes, it does.

             24           Q.     Who is he?

             25           A.     He is, apparently, a teenager in

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              2   Norway.

              3           Q.     Do you know anything about his

              4   educational background?

              5           A.     I have no specific knowledge.

              6           Q.     Do you know whether he ever took a

              7   computer course in his life?

              8           A.     I have no idea.

              9           Q.     Do you have any reason to believe

             10   that he has any particular technical skill?

             11           A.     I have no knowledge one way or

             12   another.

             13           Q.     Do you know any other individuals in

             14   MORE?

             15           A.     I am not aware of any other

             16   individuals.

             17           Q.     Do you know the process by which

             18   Johansen and the other MORE people discussed CSS

             19   and the development of DeCSS?

             20                  MR. GOLD:  What do you mean by

             21           "process" or "discussed"?  Do you mean by

             22           e-mail or letter?  You mean how they

             23           communicated their knowledge to each

             24           other?

             25                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

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              2           A.     It is my understanding, from items I

              3   have seen attributed to Jon Johansen, that they, I

              4   guess, used e-mail and I don't know what else, but

              5   I assume e-mail.

              6           Q.     Did you ever see any of that e-mail?

              7           A.     I did not.

              8           Q.     Do you know if any of that e-mail

              9   refers to the Linux system?

             10           A.     I have no knowledge.

             11           Q.     Do you know of any relationship

             12   between MORE, Johansen and the Livid system or the

             13   Livid Group?

             14                  MR. GOLD:  Do you mean do they

             15           know each other, the people in these

             16           groups?

             17                  MR. GARBUS:  I am asking whether

             18           he knows.

             19                  MR. GOLD:  Whether he knows that

             20           they knew each other?

             21                  MR. GARBUS:  And were working

             22           together.

             23           A.     And were working together?

             24           Q.     Let's start with know each other.

             25           A.     Know each other in what sense?

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              2           Q.     Talking to each other on e-mail.

              3           A.     I believe there was some amount of

              4   discussion on e-mail with some members of the Livid

              5   Group.

              6           Q.     With Johansen and the other members

              7   of MORE?

              8           A.     In the materials I reviewed.  No.

              9   Just Johansen.

             10           Q.     This was before he broke the DeCSS,

             11   the news of DeCSS, or after?

             12           A.     I believe it was right around the

             13   period of the actual delivery of DeCSS.

             14           Q.     So you don't know whether or not the

             15   Livid people knew about DeCSS before the general

             16   public did or if they learned about it at the same

             17   time?

             18           A.     I know that one member, at least

             19   according to development logs, one member of the

             20   Livid Group had access to the DeCSS prior to the

             21   general release.

             22           Q.     Were there any Livid members who

             23   were also members of MORE?

             24           A.     Not to my knowledge.

             25           Q.     How long prior to the release of the

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              2   information to the general public did the Livid

              3   Group know about it?

              4           A.     What do you mean by Livid Group?

              5           Q.     You mentioned a member.

              6           A.     Yes.  A single individual had

              7   access.  I don't recall.  I believe it was several

              8   weeks prior to the general public.

              9           Q.     Do you know where that single

             10   individual lived?

             11           A.     Apparently, he lived in England.

             12           Q.     Was there also a member of the MORE

             13   group who lived in Holland who was a member of the

             14   Livid Group?

             15           A.     I have no knowledge of that.

             16           Q.     The person who lived in England who

             17   was a member of the Livid Group, do you know what

             18   work he did with Johansen on developing DVD CSS?

             19           A.     I don't believe he did any work with

             20   Johansen.

             21           Q.     How did he come to know about the

             22   DeCSS before it was released to the public?

             23           A.     It was my understanding, based on

             24   the logs that Johansen sent the materials to this

             25   member, I believe, unsolicited.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     When Johansen sent it, is it your

              3   understanding that he knew that this person was a

              4   member of the Livid Group?

              5           A.     Yes, I believe he knew that.

              6           Q.     Have you seen the correspondence

              7   between Johansen and this person in England?

              8           A.     Only the public documents in the

              9   development.

             10           Q.     You have no particular understanding

             11   as to why, from the reading of any documents that

             12   you have done, why Johansen sent it three weeks

             13   before to a Livid member?

             14           A.     I have no understanding of why and

             15   only some discussions as to that would point to why

             16   not.

             17           Q.     Why not what?

             18           A.     That would seem to indicate Johansen

             19   did not particularly like the Linux Group.

             20           Q.     What is the basis for that view?

             21           A.     Public statements by John Johansen

             22   in the Linux development logs.

             23           Q.     When you say the "Linux development

             24   logs," we are talking about excerpts of which you

             25   have back in your office that are about 3 and a

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              1                         Schumann

              2   half inches?

              3           A.     Yes.  Some excerpts of which are in

              4   my affidavit.

              5                  MR. GOLD:  Let's take a short

              6           break.

              7                  (Recess taken.)

              8   BY MR. GARBUS:

              9           Q.     Did you ever try to transmit on the

             10   internet VCDs?

             11           A.     Have I ever tried?

             12           Q.     Yes.

             13           A.     No.

             14           Q.     Have you ever tried to transmit on

             15   the internet DivX?

             16           A.     DivX, the program?  Can you give me

             17   more detail?

             18           Q.     The movies.

             19                  MR. GOLD:  DivX, the movie?

             20           A.     A movie compressed with DivX?

             21           Q.     Yes.

             22           A.     No.

             23           Q.     Have you ever tried to transmit on

             24   the internet a DVD?

             25           A.     No.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Do you know anyone who has ever

              3   tried to transmit any of those, VCDs, DivX, or

              4   DVDs, including downloading?

              5           A.     Do I know them personally?

              6           Q.     Yes.

              7           A.     Not personally.

              8           Q.     Do you know if it has ever been

              9   done?

             10           A.     I presume it has.

             11           Q.     When you say you presume, have you

             12   ever seen manifestations of it?

             13           A.     I have never personally seen

             14   manifestations of it, but I have seen it talked

             15   about on a variety of sites.

             16           Q.     You have never seen it done itself.

             17   You have just seen people talking about doing it or

             18   having it done; is that right?

             19           A.     That's correct.

             20           Q.     Has anyone at the MPAA ever told you

             21   it has ever been done?

             22           A.     No.

             23           Q.     Before you were talking about the

             24   advantage of distributing information about codes.

             25   What does the term "proprietary algorithm" mean?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     What does the term "proprietary

              3   algorithm" mean?

              4           Q.     Right.

              5           A.     I guess an algorithm owned, I guess

              6   controlled by a personal entity, a noncontrolled

              7   algorithm.

              8           Q.     Miss Simon, Barbara Simon, uses the

              9   term that "CSS is amazingly weak."

             10                  Now, tell me on a scale of 1 to 10,

             11   where you would put the strength of CSS as a

             12   security code.

             13                  MR. GOLD:  I object to the

             14           question.  I don't think that it is

             15           answerable, unless you want to give about

             16           ten minutes of definition.

             17           Q.     You said that it is a strong code;

             18   is that right?

             19           A.     Compared to some other things, yes.

             20           Q.     Compared to what?

             21           A.     Compared to a variety of simpler

             22   scrambling algorithms.

             23           Q.     For example?

             24           A.     For example, I mean there is a long

             25   history of much weaker protection mechanisms used

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              1                         Schumann

              2   both commercially and in academia.

              3           Q.     Ms. Simon says CSS uses only a

              4   40-bit key, a length known to be breakable in a few

              5   minutes.  Do you know whether that is true or

              6   false?

              7           A.     That depends entirely on the

              8   algorithm.

              9           Q.     Do you know how long it took

             10   Johansen to break the code?

             11           A.     I have no knowledge that Johansen

             12   broke the code.

             13           Q.     Do you know how long it took the

             14   MORE group to come up with DeCSS?

             15           A.     I have no knowledge.

             16           Q.     Do you know if it took them ten

             17   minutes?  Three days?

             18           A.     I have no knowledge.

             19           Q.     So you have no knowledge whether it

             20   took a few minutes or a few days, or a few hours?

             21           A.     It may have taken three years.  I

             22   have no --

             23           Q.     To your knowledge, does anyone at

             24   the MPAA know how long it took to come up with

             25   DeCSS?

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              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I have no knowledge.

              3           Q.     Do you know if there are any files

              4   at the MPAA that has that information?

              5           A.     I have no knowledge.

              6   RQ             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, there have

              7           been a number of questions that I have

              8           asked about information at the MPAA or any

              9           of the other plaintiffs, other than Time

             10           Warner, where he says he has no knowledge.

             11           I would ask you to produce any files and

             12           documents from either the plaintiffs, other

             13           than Time Warner or the MPAA, that relate

             14           to those inquiries.

             15                  MR. GOLD:  I think that you said

             16           you would have a list for me by the end

             17           of the day today or this evening.

             18                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Of?

             19                  MR. GOLD:  Of all the documents

             20           that you have asked for that I have taken

             21           under advisement.

             22                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Sometime today,

             23           after you leave.

             24                  MR. GARBUS:  There have been many

             25           instances where I have just asked him

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              1                         Schumann

              2           questions and he said, "I don't know if

              3           there is a file," I haven't gone through

              4           the rhythm each time of saying, "Will you

              5           produce it?" and you say that you will

              6           take it under advisement.

              7                  MR. GOLD:  You asked me if there

              8           is a file.  Put that on the list.  In

              9           other words, put on the list all the

             10           things that he asked is there a file on

             11           X, Y, Z at MPAA, tell me what files you

             12           have asked for, and I will try by

             13           tomorrow late and get you a response.  If

             14           I have it, I will produce it.

             15                  MR. HERNSTADT:  Off the record.

             16                  (Discussion off the record.)

             17   BY MR. GARBUS:

             18           Q.     Did you ever see Johansen's

             19   statement as follows: "The end of September last

             20   year I got in contact with a German computer

             21   programmer and a Dutch computer programmer and we

             22   decided it was time to add DVD support to Linux"?

             23                  Did you ever see that statement?

             24           A.     It is, I believe in his affidavit he

             25   makes that statement.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GOLD:  Who is "his"?

              3           A.     This is Johansen.

              4           Q.     Yes.  So that you understand,

              5   Johansen is taking the position that he did this in

              6   order to add DVD support to --

              7                  MR. GOLD:  You are saying in the

              8           Johansen Declaration?

              9           Q.     Have you ever seen a statement made

             10   by Johansen that he decided that it was time to add

             11   DVD support to Linux, that was why DeCSS was done

             12   and why it was sent to Linux?

             13                  MR. GOLD:  The question is whether

             14           you have ever seen that statement

             15           attributing that remark to Johansen.

             16           A.     In the Declaration I saw that

             17   statement.  Johansen.  Is this in Johansen's

             18   Declaration?

             19           Q.     No.  You are talking about Chris

             20   DiBona.  You have never seen the Johansen

             21   Declaration.  I think you made a mistake.

             22           A.     That's why I asked.  You are

             23   referring to the interview in the DiBona

             24   Declaration?

             25           Q.     Yes.  And you saw that?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     And I saw that interview, yes.

              3           Q.     Do you have any reason to believe

              4   that that is not an accurate interview of Johansen?

              5           A.     It does not appear to me to

              6   correlate with other statements attributed to

              7   Johansen in the DVD development logs.

              8           Q.     Do you see where that statement

              9   comes from?  Do you see the source of it?  CNN.

             10           A.     Yes.

             11           Q.     Do you have any reason to believe

             12   that CNN was published in an interview that was in

             13   any way false?

             14                  MR. GOLD:  Are you asking if he

             15           has any reason to believe one way or the

             16           other?

             17                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

             18           A.     I have no reason to believe one way

             19   or the other.

             20           Q.     Have you seen any other statements

             21   that Johansen has made, other than in a CNN

             22   interview where he talks about DeCSS being created

             23   specifically for the purpose of adding DVD support

             24   to Linux?

             25           A.     Nothing specific I can recall.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     You didn't see that in any of the 3

              3   and a half inches of material that you had?

              4           A.     No.

              5           Q.     What is your best recollection of

              6   the date that you got the downloads from MPAA?

              7           A.     I received the materials in late

              8   November.

              9           Q.     Have you seen any public statements

             10   made by Johansen since then?

             11           A.     I have --

             12                  MR. GOLD:  You are implying that

             13           there was some public statement made by

             14           Johansen.  The witness only said he read

             15           something in CNN and some CNN person

             16           apparently said something about what

             17           Johansen said.

             18                  MR. GARBUS:  No.

             19                  MR. GOLD:  What no?

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  It is an interview.

             21           So, it is allegedly what Johansen said.

             22                  MR. GOLD:  Well, CNN says it is

             23           what Johansen said.  That's all he said.

             24   BY MR. GARBUS:

             25           Q.     Have you seen in any media since

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              1                         Schumann

              2   December 1, 1999, any statements allegedly made by

              3   Johansen to the press indicating that DeCSS was

              4   created for the Livid system?

              5           A.     I don't recall seeing any specific

              6   comment to that effect.

              7           Q.     Did you see any comments to the

              8   contrary?

              9           A.     I don't remember specifically seeing

             10   any comments to the contrary either.

             11           Q.     So to the best of your recollection,

             12   your judgments or your views about Johansen's

             13   motivations are totally informed by the material

             14   that MPAA gave you in early December?

             15           A.     By the content of the development

             16   logs, that's correct.

             17           Q.     And you don't know what they

             18   withheld from you; do you?  Or didn't give you?

             19                  MR. GOLD:  Are you suggesting --

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  No, no.  Absolutely

             21           not.

             22                  MR. GOLD:  Well, what is the

             23           question?

             24           Q.     Do you know what information they

             25   downloaded that they did not give you?

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              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GOLD:  If any.

              3                  MR. GARBUS:  If any.

              4           A.     I am hard pressed to know a

              5   negative.

              6           Q.     Did you ever ask if there were any

              7   more logs that they downloaded?

              8           A.     I did not.

              9           Q.     So you don't know, as you sit here

             10   today, how many logs they downloaded?

             11                  MR. GOLD:  Other than what he

             12           received?

             13                  MR. GARBUS:  Right.

             14                  MR. GOLD:  Which he has testified

             15           to.

             16                  MR. GARBUS:  Right.

             17                  MR. GOLD:  What else are you

             18           asking?  Then I don't understand the

             19           question.  Wait a minute.  He has

             20           testified --

             21                  MR. GARBUS:  Read back the

             22           question.

             23                  (Record read.)

             24                  MR. GOLD:  That's not -- he has

             25           testified that he received logs from them

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              1                         Schumann

              2           and he thinks he still has them.

              3                  MR. GARBUS:  Right.

              4                  MR. GOLD:  Those are the logs he

              5           got.  Now I am not understanding -- and

              6           he knows that they downloaded those logs.

              7                  MR. GARBUS:  They may have

              8           downloaded 100 logs and sent him 30.  I

              9           am asking, as I understand it, what is in

             10           those logs and he doesn't know whether or

             11           not --

             12                  MR. GOLD:  What is in what logs?

             13           The logs he never got?

             14                  MR. GARBUS:  He doesn't know

             15           whether or not -- let me see if we can

             16           have an understanding.

             17                  He doesn't know whether or not

             18           of the 3 and a half inches of logs that

             19           he got, he doesn't know A, whether or

             20           not the MPAA downloaded more logs or

             21           not and B, you don't know whether or

             22           not the MPAA saw on the internet more

             23           than the logs they downloaded.  Is that

             24           correct?

             25                  MR. GOLD:  It is correct, because

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           he already testified to that.

              3                  MR. GARBUS:  I haven't asked him

              4           about some of that yet.

              5                  MR. GOLD:  I think you did.

              6           Q.     All of the entries that made you

              7   think that DeCSS is not Livid related are the ones

              8   that are attached to your Declaration or are there

              9   others?

             10           A.     I offhand don't know, can't answer

             11   that completely.

             12           Q.     Did you select the documents to be

             13   annexed to your Declaration?  Did you pull them out

             14   of the 3 and a half inches?

             15           A.     I did.

             16           Q.     So you made that selection process?

             17           A.     I selected some, yes.

             18           Q.     And the reason for the selection was

             19   precisely to show or to support the claim, as I

             20   understand it, that what he did was not for Livid?

             21           A.     They were illustrative selections,

             22   yes.

             23           Q.     When you say "illustrative," were

             24   there other selections?

             25           A.     I said illustrative in the sense

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   that it was not an attempt to make a complete

              3   selection of all materials that might be relevant,

              4   but to select specific exemplary or -- examples.

              5           Q.     Have you read the Marcia King

              6   affidavit before you came here today?

              7           A.     I'm sorry.  Can you tell me more

              8   about her?  I'm sure I did.  I need a better

              9   description than a name.

             10           Q.     Marcia King submitted an affidavit.

             11   Marcia King is an employee of Time Warner.

             12                  MR. GARBUS:  So if you object to

             13           my asking questions that relate to that

             14           affidavit, I will not, at this time, ask

             15           further questions.

             16                  MR. GOLD:  Yes.  Time Warner does

             17           object.

             18   BY MR. GARBUS:

             19           Q.     Do you know what information MPAA

             20   downloaded prior to contacting you on DeCSS, if

             21   anything?

             22           A.     No.  I have no knowledge.

             23   RQ             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, I would ask

             24           you to produce all documents that MPAA has

             25           relating to its knowledge of DeCSS or

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           material related to DeCSS or that any of

              3           the plaintiff companies have, other than

              4           Time Warner.

              5                  MR. GOLD:  I will take it under

              6           advisement and as I stated before, the

              7           procedure that I will use, I am going to

              8           study your list and get back to you as

              9           soon as I can with a response as to

             10           whether we will deliver it or whether we

             11           have some objection.

             12   BY MR. GARBUS:

             13           Q.     You have been in the security

             14   business for how long?

             15           A.     I have been involved with security

             16   for about five years now.

             17           Q.     In this situation, it is your sense

             18   you did an examination of the links and hyperlinks

             19   in your second affidavit, which we haven't gotten

             20   to, but tell me just in general, before we go into

             21   it at great length, how many different links it was

             22   on, DeCSS, in total.

             23           A.     Links?  From what to where?  I'm

             24   sorry.

             25           Q.     How many different sites had DeCSS

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   on it?

              3                  MR. GOLD:  You mean posted DeCSS?

              4                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

              5                  MR. GOLD:  As of what period of

              6           time?

              7                  MR. GARBUS:  Let's say as of

              8           December 1st.

              9           A.     I have no way of knowing a number.

             10           Q.     How about January 1st?

             11           A.     Again, I have no way of knowing.

             12           Q.     More or less than 2,000?

             13           A.     I have no idea.

             14   RL      Q.     Did you ever make an investigation

             15   of which links outside the United States -- which

             16   sites outside of the United States have posted

             17   DeCSS?

             18                  MR. GOLD:  Hold on just a second.

             19                  (Discussion off the record.)

             20   DI             MR. GOLD:  This was a subject

             21           specifically referenced as one of the

             22           subjects that Mr. Jacobson would be made

             23           available to testify about.  So that any

             24           testimony on it isn't going to be binding

             25           on anyone anyway.  So, I think maybe you

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           should save some time.

              3                  MR. GARBUS:  I object to that.

              4           The witness has an affidavit.  I can ask

              5           questions about it.

              6                  MR. GOLD:  You can ask questions

              7           about it, but did he say how many people

              8           did or didn't post or link?

              9                  MR. GARBUS:  Can I ask my

             10           questions?

             11                  MR. GOLD:  No, because I think it

             12           relates to an area that he hasn't been

             13           designated for and to an area that

             14           someone else has been designated for.

             15                  MR. GARBUS:  As I understand it,

             16           based on your letter to me of May 10th,

             17           it says, "Schumann will testify about

             18           linking and hyperlinking."

             19                  MR. GOLD:  And he has been.

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  He has not.

             21                  MR. GOLD:  He testified to a lot

             22           of --

             23                  MR. GARBUS:  We disagree.  We will

             24           get a ruling on it.

             25                  MR. GOLD:  What you won't do is

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           interrupt me.  So if you will hold your

              3           horses and your fire for just a few

              4           seconds, I will finish.

              5                  Ken Jacobson was identified as a

              6           witness, designated by all plaintiffs,

              7           other than Time Warner, and designated

              8           by the MPAA as a witness who will

              9           testify in the subject area as to the

             10           persons or entities posting or linking

             11           to DeCSS, and that's what he will do.

             12                  MR. GARBUS:  We have a

             13           disagreement.  I am talking about

             14           posting, I am talking about linking, I am

             15           talking about hyperlinking.  It's exactly

             16           what this witness is supposed to testify

             17           about.

             18                  MR. GOLD:  Do you want to waive

             19           your deposition of Mr. Jacobson?

             20                  MR. GARBUS:  Absolutely not.  We

             21           will get a ruling.

             22                  MR. GOLD:  Do whatever.  You have

             23           gotten a lot of rulings.

             24   BY MR. GARBUS:

             25   RL      Q.     With respect to linking -- first of

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   all, with respect to posting, do you know, let's

              3   say as of December 1st, how many sites had posted

              4   DeCSS?

              5                  MR. GOLD:  Same objection.

              6                  MR. GARBUS:  Let me ask about ten

              7           questions and you will object and you

              8           will have a record.

              9   DI             MR. GOLD:  I object on this one on

             10           the grounds that no plaintiff can be bound

             11           by it and that another person has been

             12           identified to testify on that subject.

             13           Q.     With respect to linking, I presume

             14   Mr. Gold will make the same objection.  We can just

             15   save some time for December 1st, January 1st,

             16   February 1st, and April 1st; is that right?

             17                  MR. GOLD:  You have asked him a

             18           question?

             19                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

             20                  MR. GOLD:  I don't want to talk to

             21           him between a question and an answer,

             22           although I am not aware of the question.

             23                  MR. GARBUS:  Read it to him.

             24                  (Record read.)

             25                  MR. GOLD:  The witness -- there is

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           no point in setting up disputes to bother

              3           the judge with when, in fact -- I have

              4           just been advised that the witness

              5           doesn't know anything about this subject.

              6           So, you want to ask him again?  This is

              7           the subject of how many people posted or

              8           linked to a posting on any given date.

              9                  MR. GARBUS:  Or hyperlinked.

             10                  MR. GOLD:  Or hyperlinked.  You

             11           don't know that, how many people?

             12                  THE WITNESS:  In the world?

             13   BY MR. GARBUS:

             14           Q.     Let's start with the United States.

             15           A.     No, I have no way of knowing.

             16           Q.     Did you ever have any conversation

             17   with anyone at the MPAA as to their view of the

             18   number of individuals, viewers who saw or know the

             19   DeCSS code on any given date?

             20                  MR. GOLD:  Answer that "yes" or

             21           "no."

             22           A.     No.

             23           Q.     Do you have any knowledge of how

             24   many people knew at one time or another of the

             25   DeCSS code?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     No.

              3           Q.     Do you know how many viewers went to

              4   any of the sites that either posted, linked, or

              5   hyperlinked to sites that had the DeCSS code?

              6           A.     No.

              7           Q.     Do you know if the number of people

              8   is more or less than 2 million?

              9           A.     I do not know.

             10           Q.     Do you know if there were any

             11   downloads?  In other words, can you tell if a user

             12   of a computer, such as myself, if I want to print

             13   out something, can you tell what I have chosen to

             14   print out or not print out?

             15           A.     From -- with what knowledge?

             16           Q.     In other words, is there any way

             17   that, to your knowledge, the MPAA has made any

             18   estimate of the number of people who have printed

             19   out DeCSS?

             20                  MR. GOLD:  I think the question

             21           is:  "Do you know if the MPAA has made

             22           any estimate of the number of people who

             23           have printed out DeCSS"?  If you can,

             24           answer that question.

             25                  Did I get your question right?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

              3           A.     No, I have no knowledge.

              4           Q.     And your answer would be the same

              5   with respect to the other seven plaintiffs?

              6           A.     That's correct.

              7           Q.     Do you know that there are T-shirts

              8   that have "DeCSS" on it?

              9           A.     I know there are T-shirts that have

             10   a portion of the DeCSS code on them.

             11           Q.     Is that portion of the code

             12   sufficient with the use of crypto analysis to

             13   finish out the code and get the rest of the code?

             14                  MR. GOLD:  Read it back.

             15                  (Record read.)

             16           A.     I'm sorry.  Is that code --

             17                  MR. GARBUS:  Withdraw it.

             18           Q.     Do you know how many websites posted

             19   DeCSS on November 1st?

             20                  MR. GOLD:  Answer "yes" or "no."

             21           A.     No.

             22           Q.     Just to save time, I assume that you

             23   don't know, and tell me if that is true, with

             24   respect to posting, linking, hyperlinking, and with

             25   respect to any particular date that I ask you, that

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   you don't know how many sites there were that were

              3   either posting, linking, or hyperlinking with

              4   DeCSS; is that right?

              5           A.     That's correct.

              6           Q.     Do you know if anyone at the MPAA

              7   knows?

              8           A.     I have no knowledge of that.

              9           Q.     Did anyone at the MPAA ever tell you

             10   they did know?

             11                  MR. GOLD:  Just "yes" or "no."

             12           A.     No.

             13           Q.     Did you see Mr. Boyden's affidavit

             14   in this case?

             15           A.     Can you refresh my memory?  A name

             16   alone is not good for my memory.

             17                  MR. GARBUS:  Let's mark this as

             18           the next exhibits, Exhibit 9.

             19                  (Defendants' Exhibit 9, Declaration

             20           of Bruce E. Boyden, marked for

             21           identification, as of this date.)

             22   BY MR. GARBUS:

             23           Q.     Have you ever read that affidavit?

             24           A.     I don't believe I have ever read it.

             25           Q.     Let me show you Defendants' Exhibit

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   7.  By the way, did anybody at the MPAA ever tell

              3   you that they were visiting websites in January,

              4   February, and March to determine where DeCSS was

              5   posted?

              6           A.     MPAA?

              7           Q.     Yes.  Or anybody on their behalf.

              8           A.     Yes.

              9           Q.     Who did it?

             10           A.     Someone at the Proskauer firm.

             11           Q.     Do you know if anybody at the MPAA

             12   did it in addition to the Proskauer firm?

             13                  MR. GOLD:  Yes or no?

             14           A.     No, I have no knowledge.

             15           Q.     Do you know whether or not since

             16   they did it at the Proskauer firm, as sets forth in

             17   the Boyden affidavit of January 13th, whether

             18   anyone has done it at the MPAA since?

             19                  MR. GOLD:  Only if they are

             20           employed by MPAA?  Is that what you are

             21           asking?

             22                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

             23           A.     Whether I have any knowledge if

             24   anyone at the MPAA has looked at websites since

             25   Boyden's --

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     Yes.

              3           A.     No, I have no knowledge.

              4           Q.     With respect to John Gillmore's

              5   affidavit, which you have in front of you, which is

              6   Exhibit 7, have you read Mr. Gilmore's affidavit?

              7           A.     I have.

              8           Q.     Had you heard of Mr. Gilmore prior

              9   to this litigation?

             10           A.     Not in any specific way.

             11           Q.     Do you know who Sun Micro Systems

             12   is?

             13           A.     I do.

             14           Q.     Do you know of his involvement

             15   there?

             16           A.     Only from what I read in his

             17   affidavit.

             18           Q.     By the way, do you know what Corel

             19   is?

             20           A.     C-O-R-E-L?

             21           Q.     Yes.

             22           A.     Yes.

             23           Q.     What is it?

             24           A.     It is a company out of Canada

             25   somewhere.  Montreal maybe.

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           Q.     What does it do?

              3           A.     They are a developer of software.

              4           Q.     Do you know what Redhat is?

              5           A.     Yes.

              6           Q.     What is that?

              7           A.     It is a company that sells Linux

              8   versions.

              9           Q.     What does Corel sell or develop?

             10           A.     A variety of software.

             11           Q.     Either related to Linux?

             12           A.     Yes.  I believe they have a version

             13   of Linux.

             14           Q.     When you say they have a version of

             15   Linux, can you tell me something more about that?

             16                  MR. GOLD:  Objection to the form.

             17           A.     (No response.)

             18           Q.     When you say they have a version of

             19   Linux, what does that mean?

             20           A.     It means they sell a particular

             21   variation or release of Linux.

             22           Q.     Do you know what Cynga Support was?

             23           A.     I'm not familiar with that to any

             24   degree.

             25           Q.     Did you ever hear of the term "Cyber

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   Punks"?

              3           A.     I have not.  Not prior to reading

              4   the affidavit.

              5           Q.     Have you ever read any articles

              6   about Mr. Gilmore?

              7           A.     No.

              8           Q.     Have you ever read anything that he

              9   has ever written?

             10           A.     Not to my specific recollection.

             11           Q.     Have you ever read anything that

             12   Mr. Stevenson has ever written?

             13           A.     I have.

             14           Q.     What is that?  Just the material

             15   that came off -- excuse me.

             16           A.     The material off his website, yes.

             17           Q.     Other than that, have you ever read

             18   anything of his?

             19           A.     I have not.

             20           Q.     Have you ever read anything of

             21   Mr. Touretzky's affidavit that you have probably

             22   read?

             23           A.     No.

             24           Q.     Have you ever heard of Mr. Touretzky

             25   prior to today?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I have not.

              3           Q.     Does the name Mr. Abelson mean

              4   anything to you?

              5           A.     It does not.

              6           Q.     Did you read his affidavit before

              7   you came here today?

              8           A.     If it was one of the affidavits, I

              9   would have read it, yes.

             10           Q.     You read all the affidavits?

             11           A.     Again, I apologize.  Names are

             12   not --

             13           Q.     Have you ever read anything that

             14   Mr. Abelson has ever written?

             15           A.     Can you refresh me more about his

             16   affidavit and his background, please?

             17           Q.     I will show you the affidavit.  With

             18   Mr. Appel, have you ever read anything that he has

             19   ever written?

             20           A.     Again, I would have to see his

             21   affidavit to refresh my memory.

             22           Q.     Have you ever heard of his name

             23   before this lawsuit?

             24           A.     No, I have not.

             25           Q.     Do you know if their affidavits were

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2   ever submitted in any other lawsuits?

              3           A.     I have no knowledge, unless they

              4   referenced that in their affidavits.

              5           Q.     Do you know what the public policy

              6   award from the RCA Data Security is?

              7           A.     RSA?

              8           Q.     Yes.

              9           A.     I am not familiar with that

             10   particular award.

             11           Q.     What is the RSA?

             12           A.     RSA is a security company.

             13           Q.     Prestigious in their field?

             14           A.     Yes, they are.

             15           Q.     What kind of work do they do?

             16           A.     They are primarily known for the RSA

             17   algorithm that the founders of RSA developed.

             18           Q.     Do you know whether or not

             19   Mr. Gilmore ever won an award from that company?

             20           A.     If it's mentioned in his affidavit,

             21   I have no reason to believe he did not.

             22           Q.     The DeCSS software for Windows and a

             23   similar READDVD software for Linux can both be used

             24   to copy compressed video images from a DVD disk

             25   onto a hard drive.  Isn't that so?

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2           A.     I know that DeCSS can perform that.

              3   I have no detailed knowledge of the other program.

              4                  MR. GARBUS:  We can stop now.  I

              5           think we have another day at least with

              6           this witness.  I think more.  I think at

              7           some point in time, maybe after that day,

              8           we can get rulings on whether or not I

              9           can examine him at length about his

             10           affidavit of April 3rd, which --

             11                  MR. GOLD:  You can examine him now

             12           about his affidavit.

             13                  MR. GARBUS:  But that's exactly

             14           what you told me for us to do.

             15                         --o0o--

             16           (Continued on next page to include jurat.)










                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING


              1                         Schumann

              2                  MR. GOLD:  I was responding to the

              3           specific questions you asked.  You wanted

              4           questions about his affidavit.  Let's go

              5           off the record.

              6                  (Time noted:  5:00 p.m.)



              9                  ______________________________________

             10                            ROBERT W. SCHUMANN



             13           Subscribed and sworn to before me

             14           this____ day of___________, 2000.


             16           __________________________________

             17           NOTARY PUBLIC









                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING



              2                  C E R T I F I C A T E

              3   STATE OF NEW YORK )

              4                       ) ss.:

              5   COUNTY OF RICHMOND)

              6                 I, ELIZABETH SANTAMARIA, a Shorthand

              7           Reporter and Notary Public within and for

              8           the State of New York, do hereby certify:

              9                 That ROBERT W. SCHUMANN, the witness

             10           whose deposition is hereinbefore set forth,

             11           was duly sworn by me, and that such

             12           deposition is a true record of the

             13           testimony given by such witness.

             14                 I further certify that I am not

             15           related to any of the parties to this

             16           action by blood or marriage; and that I am

             17           in no way interested in the outcome of this

             18           matter.

             19                 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto

             20           set my hand this 16th day of May, 2000.


             22                            _____________________________

             23                                ELIZABETH SANTAMARIA



                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING



              2   ------------------ I N D E X ------------------

              3   WITNESS               EXAMINATION BY          PAGE

              4   ROBERT W. SCHUMANN     MR. GARBUS           4, 103

              5                          MR. HERNSTADT            69

              6   ----------- INFORMATION REQUESTS --------------

              7   DIRECTIONS:  38, 40, 58, 67, 115, 116, 117, 137, 145,

              8   186, 189

              9   RULINGS: 8, 38, 40, 58, 67, 116, 117, 137, 144, 186,

             10   188

             11   REQUESTS:  29, 33, 52, 79, 105, 175, 184,


             13   ------------------- EXHIBITS -----------------------

             14   DEFENDANTS'                                    FOR I.D.

             15   Defendants' Exhibit 1, Mr. Robert W. Schumann's

             16   Declaration......................................... 30

             17   Defendants' Exhibit 2, Supplemental Declaration

             18   of Robert Schumann.................................. 73

             19   Defendants' Exhibit 3, Declaration of

             20   Matt Pavlovich...................................... 149

             21   Defendants' Exhibit 4, Declaration of

             22   Chris DiBona........................................ 149

             23   Defendants' Exhibit 5, Declaration of

             24   Frank Stevenson..................................... 149

             25                        --o0o--

                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING



              2   --------------- I N D E X  (C O N T'D) --------------

              3   ------------------- EXHIBITS -----------------------

              4   DEFENDANT'S                                     FOR I.D.

              5   Defendants' Exhibit 6, Declaration of

              6   David Wagner........................................ 149

              7   Defendants' Exhibit 7, Declaration of

              8   John Gilmore........................................ 149

              9   Defendants' Exhibit 8, Declaration of

             10   Bruce Schneier...................................... 149

             11   Defendants' Exhibit 9, Declaration of

             12   Bruce E. Boyden..................................... 193


             14                         --o0o--












                              INTERIM COURT REPORTING 

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