Peter Ramadge Deposition, in MPAA v. 2600

NY; July 14, 2000

See related files: (EFF Archive) (Cryptome Archive) (2600 Archive) (Harvard DVD OpenLaw Project)




       UNIVERSAL STUDIOS, INC.;       )
  6    TRISTAR PICTURES, INC.;        )
  8    INC.; and TWENTIETH CENTURY    )
       FOX FILM CORPORATION,          )
  9                                   )
                     Plaintiffs,      )
 10                                   )
                  vs.                 ) No. 00 Civ. 277
 11                                   ) (LAK)(RLE)
 12    a/k/a "EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN";    )
       ROMAN KAZANI; and 2600         )
 13    ENTERPRISES, INC.,             )
 14                  Defendants.      )




 19                     New York, New York

 20                  Friday, July 14, 2000


 22  Reported by:  


 24  CSR NO. 810490   

 25  JOB NO. 111054  





  5                          July 14, 2000

  6                          11:15 a.m.


  8               Deposition of PETER RAMADGE, held at 

  9         the offices of Proskauer Rose LLP, 

 10         1585 Broadway, New York, New York, pursuant 

 11         to agreement, before Shauna Stoltz-Laurie, a 

 12         Notary Public of the State of New York.















  2    A P P E A R A N C E S:



  5         Attorneys for Plaintiffs

  6               1585 Broadway

  7               New York, New York 10036-8299

  8         BY:   WILLIAM M. HART, ESQ.



 11         Attorneys for Defendants

 12               488 Madison Avenue

 13               New York, New York 10022

 14         BY:   MARTIN GARBUS, ESQ.

 15               DAVID Y. ATLAS, ESQ.
















  6         and between the attorneys for the respective 

  7         parties herein, that filing and sealing be 

  8         and the same are hereby waived.  


 10         that all objections, except as to the form 

 11         of the question, shall be reserved to the 

 12         time of the trial.


 14         that the within deposition may be sworn to 

 15         and signed before any officer authorized to 

 16         administer an oath, with the same force and 

 17         effect as if signed and sworn to before the 

 18         Court.









  2               ([Ramadge] Exhibit 1, Mr. Ramadge 

  3         declaration, marked for identification, as 

  4         of this date.)

  5    P E T E R   R A M A D G E ,   called as a witness, 

  6         having been duly sworn by a Notary Public, 

  7         was examined and testified as follows:


  9    MR. HART:

 10         Q.    How do you want me to address you, as 

 11    professor, doctor, Pete?

 12         A.    Whatever is most convenient is fine.

 13         Q.    Thank you. 

 14               Thank you for coming today. 

 15               How did you get involved in this case?

 16         A.    I think I was -- initially received an 

 17    e-mail from Andrew Appel asking if I would be 

 18    interested in testifying, and with some information 

 19    directing me how to find out what the case was 

 20    about. 

 21               And I was contacted by Ed Hernstadt from 

 22    the defense's law firm, and we had a discussion 

 23    about my research and how I did my research and how 

 24    I used video, and he asked me if I'd be able to 

 25    testify.


  2         Q.    And can you put a time frame on it?

  3         A.    Gee, I don't know when that was.  I 

  4    could look up the e-mail date.  I don't have it in 

  5    my head, though. 

  6               And the contact with Ed Hernstadt was 

  7    maybe two weeks later.

  8         Q.    The e-mail, again, was that from 

  9    Dr. Appel?

 10         A.    Yes.

 11         Q.    And Dr. Appel is at Princeton?

 12         A.    Yes.

 13         Q.    And you're at Princeton?

 14         A.    Correct.

 15         Q.    And how long have you been at Princeton?

 16         A.    About 16 years.

 17         Q.    And has your job or area of practice, if 

 18    you will, changed in any way over the course of 

 19    16 years at Princeton?

 20         A.    My -- maybe you could be a little bit --

 21         Q.    I'll rephrase the question. 

 22               You teach at Princeton full time?

 23         A.    I do.

 24         Q.    And do you teach in any specialized 

 25    areas?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    Electrical engineering is the general -- 

  3    is my department.

  4         Q.    Right. 

  5               And within electrical engineering are 

  6    there any areas in which you specialize?

  7         A.    Yes.

  8         Q.    What are those?

  9         A.    I'm in a subdivision of the department 

 10    that goes under the name of Information Science and 

 11    Systems.

 12         Q.    And if you were to be forced to explain 

 13    that in 25 words or less in English, could you just 

 14    tell us what you do currently at Princeton?

 15         A.    Currently at Princeton my research is in 

 16    the area of signal processing particularly applied 

 17    to video analysis, digital libraries, video 

 18    compression.

 19         Q.    And when you say "signal processing," 

 20    are you talking about means by which a video signal 

 21    is transmitted and/or converted and/or used for 

 22    viewing?

 23               MR. ATLAS:  Object as to form. 

 24         A.    Those are very broad areas.  My research 

 25    is only in specialized sub areas of those areas.

  1                     Ramadge

  2         Q.    Could you just help me understand what 

  3    areas you specialize in. 

  4         A.    For the past five years I've been doing 

  5    research in the analysis of digital video.

  6         Q.    And by that what do you mean?

  7         A.    We start with digital video usually in 

  8    compressed form, such as MPEG form, and then we 

  9    would write algorithms to read the data from the 

 10    MPEG file, process that data, perhaps find 

 11    interesting pieces of that compressed video. 

 12         Q.    And by interesting pieces, what are you 

 13    referring to?

 14         A.    That's determined by the application at 

 15    hand.  So if someone might be interested, for 

 16    example, in finding scene changes, because scene 

 17    changes can help you browse through a video.  Other 

 18    people might be interested in finding certain types 

 19    of camera motion, because that may give you some 

 20    information about what is happening in the video. 

 21         Q.    OK, let me try and simplify it.  And 

 22    please correct me if I'm wrong, all right? 

 23               Are you saying that you specialize in 

 24    developing electronic search techniques to search 

 25    and analyze video content by some defined feature 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    or aspect of that content?

  3               MR. ATLAS:  Object as to form. 

  4               If that's your understanding.

  5         A.    What you've just described in general 

  6    terms is perhaps more than what I do.

  7         Q.    Ah, OK. 

  8         A.    I am at the -- this research area is 

  9    only at its very beginnings, and so at the moment 

 10    we're only working on very fundamental algorithms 

 11    to investigate what can you do in these contexts.  

 12    We haven't yet got to the level of being able to 

 13    perhaps interact with an actual user and be able to 

 14    take what the user wants and produce it 

 15    necessarily, because we don't know how to do all 

 16    those things just yet.

 17         Q.    When you say "interact with the user," 

 18    do you mean to frame a search based on a request 

 19    like please scan for every instance in which a 

 20    given actor, for example, Humphrey Bogart riding a 

 21    motorcycle?

 22         A.    That's something we couldn't do at the 

 23    moment.  Nor do we try and do that.  I concentrate 

 24    on much more fundamental parts of -- which might go 

 25    into produce building blocks to solve such 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    problems.

  3         Q.    Is there a way you could generally 

  4    describe for us what it is that you are 

  5    concentrating on?

  6         A.    If I give you an example --

  7         Q.    Please.

  8         A.    -- one thing we've worked on is 

  9    estimating camera motion from compressed video, so 

 10    without uncompressing the video we read through the 

 11    compressed video file, use the information which 

 12    can be pulled out very quickly from the compressed 

 13    video, and use that to estimate the motion of the 

 14    camera during the video.

 15         Q.    And what is the value of discerning 

 16    camera motion as you've just described it?

 17         A.    Well, that's an elementary building 

 18    block which could then be used later on in a more 

 19    complex search where -- in situations where camera 

 20    motion may tell you something interesting is 

 21    happening. 

 22         Q.    For example, ultimately leading toward a 

 23    request such as the example I posited a moment ago, 

 24    like searching for Humphrey Bogart riding on a 

 25    motorcycle?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    That's not specifically referencing a 

  3    camera motion.  It would have to be something that 

  4    makes some context where camera motion is 

  5    important.  So let me give you an example.  

  6    Searching for a fast break in a basketball game 

  7    would be something where camera motion can be quite 

  8    important, because typically the camera tracks the 

  9    ball very closely.

 10         Q.    And just so I get this straight -- then 

 11    we'll leave this topic -- is that because there is 

 12    some content-related interest in discerning the 

 13    events taking place in the game, that is, you know, 

 14    a particular basket was shot within a game, and, 

 15    you know, based on the camera motion, that there 

 16    would have been some necessary camera motion 

 17    incident to filming that, and therefore you're 

 18    using the camera motion as a cue for the search?

 19               MR. ATLAS:  Object as to form. 

 20               If you follow that, you could answer 

 21         it.

 22         A.    At the moment we don't know the ultimate 

 23    application for which this may be put.  That's why 

 24    I say we're developing basic building blocks.  

 25    After we got a set of basic building blocks in 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    place we try to investigate and see what those may 

  3    be used on, and that may be context dependent.

  4         Q.    Thank you.  I'm sorry for the lack of 

  5    clarity in my questioning. 

  6               Apart from camera motion, are there any 

  7    other types of cues that you're working with now?

  8         A.    I've mentioned scene change detection.  

  9    I haven't actually been researching that, but other 

 10    people have been researching screen detection. 

 11               I've also been researching search, for 

 12    example, where you provide a small clip of video 

 13    and you say such through the archive to find pieces 

 14    similar to this clip.

 15         Q.    Very good. 

 16               You said a moment ago that these 

 17    searches are done using compressed video, typically 

 18    MPEG?

 19         A.    Ideally they would be in the compressed 

 20    domain to save time.  You want the search to be as 

 21    fast as possible.

 22         Q.    I see. 

 23               Is that the only reason you're working 

 24    with compressed video?

 25         A.    No, it's not the only reason.  The 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    compressed video, the encoder used to produce the 

  3    decompressed video has done a lot of work, and 

  4    sometimes you can use that material.  It actually 

  5    has some information which is valuable to you.  So 

  6    it's not just it's in the compressed domain.  It 

  7    saves you time from compressing it, but you can 

  8    exploit the point that the software and hardware 

  9    that did the compression has extracted useful 

 10    information and has placed that into the compressed 

 11    file, and you can use that information.

 12         Q.    When you said you were working with MPEG 

 13    type video compression, are you referring to one 

 14    particular type of compression algorithm or 

 15    process, or are there multiple video compression 

 16    algorithms or processes that you're working with?

 17               MR. ATLAS:  Object as to form. 

 18         A.    We've been working with a variety of 

 19    different compression techniques. 

 20         Q.    Can you identify those for me?

 21         A.    We've worked with video in MPEG I 

 22    format.

 23         Q.    Right.

 24         A.    MPEG II format. 

 25               Often when we are in the process of 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    gathering video or transforming video we pass it 

  3    through other formats.

  4         Q.    I'm sorry, compression formats?

  5         A.    Other compression formats which might be 

  6    hardware specific.  So if we're using a machine 

  7    from Silicon Graphics, we might use a compression 

  8    technology or representation format for the Silicon 

  9    Graphics machine.

 10         Q.    Gotya.  OK. 

 11               Are any of these processes better than 

 12    any of the others, in your experience?

 13               MR. ATLAS:  Better as to what? 

 14               Object. 

 15         A.    These different compression technologies 

 16    have been designed for different purposes.

 17         Q.    What are the different purposes?

 18         A.    Normally, because video contains a lot 

 19    of information, many, many bits, you have to 

 20    compress the video in order to transmit it or store 

 21    it, transmit it over a bandwidth limited channel or 

 22    to store it on some storage device which has 

 23    limited space, so there's many variables you can 

 24    trade off one against the other, so different 

 25    compression techniques and standards do different 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    trade-offs to achieve different goals. 

  3         Q.    Is it fair to say that there's some 

  4    relationship between the degree of compression and 

  5    the degree of viewing quality, if you will? 

  6         A.    There are other variables in addition to 

  7    viewing quality.

  8         Q.    And what are those?

  9         A.    Well, viewing quality is a very 

 10    subjective measure, and it contains many other 

 11    subcomponents, size of the image, depth of the 

 12    colors, things like that. 

 13         Q.    Have you had any experience in using the 

 14    compression process referred to as DIVX?

 15         A.    Can you spell that, please.

 16         Q.    D-I-V-X.

 17         A.    Yes, I have.

 18         Q.    And what has been your experience in 

 19    using DIVX?

 20         A.    In connection with this case I have 

 21    looked on the web and used a search engine to look 

 22    for references to this compression technology, and 

 23    I have downloaded several files which claim to code 

 24    and decode in this compression technology. 

 25         Q.    Have you used this compression 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    technology?

  3         A.    I'm in the process of attempting to get 

  4    those things downloaded to function and investigate 

  5    how well they work.

  6         Q.    When did you start doing this?

  7         A.    Over the previous two weeks. 

  8         Q.    So in last two weeks you have not 

  9    actually used DIVX? 

 10               MR. ATLAS:  Object.  I don't think 

 11         that was his testimony, but --

 12         A.    I don't know how to answer that 

 13    question, because I don't think DIVX is a very 

 14    defined object.  I haven't seen a precise 

 15    definition of what DIVX is.  I've used several 

 16    codecs.  I've downloaded from the web.  One or 

 17    another of those could be the one referred to as 

 18    DIVX.

 19         Q.    Have you made any evaluation of the 

 20    differences between the codecs that you downloaded 

 21    under the name of the DIVX?

 22         A.    I'm in the process of doing such an 

 23    evaluation.  I haven't reached conclusions yet.

 24         Q.    I see. 

 25               Are there any particular objectives to 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    your research, and if so, what are they?

  3         A.    My first objective is simply to 

  4    investigate what these codecs do, what trade-offs 

  5    they make in the compression, and to do some sort 

  6    of evaluation of the resultant quality of the image 

  7    or video.

  8         Q.    And how are you evaluating quality, by 

  9    what criteria?

 10         A.    At the moment I'm looking at various 

 11    criteria, the size of the image, the bit rate of 

 12    the video, frame rate of the video, size of the 

 13    compressed file, and the subjective search of the 

 14    resultant viewing quality.

 15         Q.    And how is the subjective measure being 

 16    evaluated, or how will it be evaluated?

 17               MR. ATLAS:  Object to the form.

 18         A.    I haven't got to that point yet.

 19               THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

 20               MR. ATLAS:  That's OK.

 21         Q.    With respect to the other video 

 22    compression processes that you've worked with, have 

 23    you ever evaluated those processes in the same way 

 24    that you're now describing in the process of what 

 25    you're doing with DIVX?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

  3               MR. HART:  I'll have her read it back.

  4               (Record read.)

  5               (Discussion off the record.)

  6         Q.    You mentioned certain evaluations that 

  7    you're now undertaking with respect to what's 

  8    called DIVX, right?

  9         A.    Correct.

 10         Q.    Have you ever performed similar 

 11    evaluations for any of the other video compression 

 12    technologies that you worked with?

 13         A.    I have made comparison for my own 

 14    benefit between compression technology, such as 

 15    MPEG I and -- MPEG I and MPEG II and AVI, a 

 16    Microsoft format.

 17         Q.    And when you say you've made comparison 

 18    of these video compression processes for your own 

 19    benefit, what criteria did you use in those 

 20    evaluations?

 21         A.    We needed to set a -- choose a format 

 22    for my research and my graduate students' research 

 23    which would enable us to work with video in 

 24    compressed form, tackle the essential problems that 

 25    such video poses, but without necessarily having to 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    deal with all of the bells and whistles that the 

  3    consumer might want to have.  So we had to evaluate 

  4    -- we worked with MPEG I ,we work with MPEG II, we 

  5    work with AVI.

  6         Q.    Did you ultimately come to a conclusion 

  7    for which to use?

  8         A.    For the purposes of the research I'm 

  9    involved with, MPEG I involves all the essential 

 10    pieces for the first pass, through some of the 

 11    things we're working through.  After MPEG I, we 

 12    might see -- if there is a change, we need to work 

 13    with MPEG II.

 14         Q.    Does it compress at a higher rate?

 15               MR. ATLAS:  MPEG II?

 16               MR. HART:  Yes. 

 17         Q.    (Continuing) Than MPEG I.

 18         A.    MPEG II has a higher bit rate than 

 19    MPEG I.

 20         Q.    Right.  And does it yield a more highly 

 21    compressed file?

 22         A.    That -- I can't answer that question, 

 23    because there are other variables.  It has a 

 24    greater resolution.  It has more pixels, has a 

 25    higher bit rate.  It has essentially the same frame 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    rate, but it uses interlaced format.  So they're 

  3    really intended for different applications, so --

  4         Q.    Right.  And MPEG II is for progressive 

  5    scan?

  6         A.    It could do it, but the new feature from 

  7    MPEG II is it does interlaced scan.

  8         Q.    MPEG II does both interlaced and 

  9    progressive scan, whereas MPEG I was only 

 10    interlaced?

 11         A.    MPEG is only progressed.

 12         Q.    Excuse me.  I apologize. 

 13               Are the compression ratios of those 

 14    processes variable by the user?

 15         A.    You have to define who the user is, 

 16    because there -- video content produces --

 17         Q.    Fair enough.  By the person that's 

 18    applying the process could compress the video.

 19         A.    Yes, they can choose the amount of 

 20    compression they wish to apply.

 21         Q.    Have you studied MPEG IV at all?

 22         A.    I'm aware of MPEG IV.  It's not my area 

 23    of research.

 24         Q.    Is there a reason why MPEG IV is not 

 25    within your area of research?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    The objectives of MPEG IV are different 

  3    from the objectives of MPEG I and MPEG II.  MPEG IV 

  4    is a load bit rate coder intended for a different 

  5    suite of applications.

  6         Q.    And in plain English, what are those 

  7    different applications?

  8         A.    Wireless, multi-media, video phones, 

  9    video e-mail. 

 10         Q.    Have you had occasion to see the 

 11    resulting screen display of any DIVX compressed 

 12    video?

 13               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

 14               Just so the record is clarified, I 

 15         think the witness testified he wasn't clear 

 16         that there was one --

 17               MR. HART:  Fine.  Any DIVX -- I 

 18         understood that, but my question takes that 

 19         into account, I think.

 20         A.    I have downloaded coders which seem to 

 21    be DIVX coders.  I downloaded several codecs.  I 

 22    have been progressing my way through those codecs.  

 23    I'm not sure at this point if I have looked the 

 24    ones explicitly called DIVX.

 25         Q.    And the ones you've looked at that you 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    downloaded that you believed were called DIVX --

  3               Right so far? 

  4         A.    Yes.

  5         Q.    -- have you seen the result on a screen 

  6    display of processing using those codecs?

  7         A.    At this point I cannot be sure, because 

  8    the codecs were not labeled as DIVX coder in the 

  9    software, they were labeled by something else.

 10         Q.    What were they labeled by?

 11         A.    I think one as labeled "MPEG IV Codecs" 

 12    or some permutation of that.  More than one was 

 13    labeled "MPEG IV High Bit Codec."

 14         Q.    And with respect to the two that you 

 15    just mentioned, have you processed video using 

 16    either of them and seen the resulting screen 

 17    display from them?

 18               MR. ATLAS:  Objection as to form.  Go 

 19         ahead. 

 20         A.    I have processed video using several of 

 21    those codecs, the ones just mentioned, and I have 

 22    seen the video on the screen.

 23         Q.    And what kind of screen were you seeing 

 24    it on?

 25         A.    I have played it on my laptop screen and 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    I have played it on a 20-inch monitor.  Computer 

  3    monitor.

  4         Q.    And how did the video look to your 

  5    professional eye?

  6         A.    It had very noticeable artifacts.

  7         Q.    And by artifacts you're referring to 

  8    what specifically?

  9         A.    When you compress a video it's a lossy 

 10    process.  Information is loss.  That lost 

 11    information appears as distortions in the actual 

 12    video when you view it.  Those are normally called 

 13    artifacts.

 14         Q.    How do those manifest themselves to the 

 15    user?

 16         A.    They may manifest themselves in various 

 17    ways.  The one way is as a blockiness of the image, 

 18    because many of these codecs are block based.  It 

 19    may manifest itself as a miscoloring of these 

 20    blocks, because the blocks are sometimes pulled 

 21    from prior frames --

 22               (Telephone interruption.)

 23         Q.    Anything else to add to your answer? 

 24         A.    There are other things, but they occur 

 25    less often.

  1                     Ramadge

  2               MR. HART:  I'm sorry.  I apologize for 

  3         the interruption.  The phone is ringing. 

  4               (Discussion off the record.)

  5               MR. ATLAS:  Can we just have the 

  6         answer read back.  I don't know if he was 

  7         finished.

  8               MR. HART:  I apologize for that.

  9               (Record read.)

 10               MR. ATLAS:  Wait.  Are you done, or 

 11         are there other ways?

 12         A.    (Continuing) I believe -- as the 

 13    telephone rang I believe I was going to say that 

 14    there are other artifacts which can be produced, 

 15    such as, for example, a lost block.

 16         Q.    Right. 

 17         A.    But they occur less frequently. 

 18         Q.    What source material did you use for 

 19    these compression experiments?

 20         A.    I used a DVD.

 21         Q.    Any reason why you used a DVD?

 22         A.    High quality digital video, source of 

 23    high quality digital video.

 24         Q.    As compared to what?

 25         A.    NYSC videotape or television broadcast 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    signal. 

  3         Q.    Could you tell me what the compression 

  4    ratio was that you used in these evaluations?

  5         A.    I haven't used any fixed compression 

  6    ratio. 

  7         Q.    OK.  Can you give me a range of what 

  8    kind of compression ratios you were dealing with in 

  9    these tests?

 10         A.    One objective is to examine what 

 11    compression ratio would be required in order to 

 12    reduce a video file down to 650 megabytes.

 13         Q.    And to reduce a video file to 650 

 14    megabytes what kind of compression ratio are we 

 15    dealing with?

 16         A.    That depends upon the size of the 

 17    original video.

 18         Q.    In the case of the original video that 

 19    you were using, how big was the uncompressed file, 

 20    if you will?

 21         A.    There were many -- there were many 

 22    compressed files on the DVD.  All -- the video on 

 23    the DVD is already in compressed form.

 24         Q.    I understand that, but pre your applying 

 25    in the compression that you applied --

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    There are various files totaling over 

  3    seven gigabits on the DVD.

  4         Q.    And after applying the compression 

  5    processes you described you wound up with a 650 

  6    megabyte sized file; is that right?

  7         A.    At the current time I'm still 

  8    investigating what compression ratios would be 

  9    required to reach a file size of 650 megabytes.

 10         Q.    Let me just ask you this, as a matter of 

 11    ratios. 

 12               What is the ratio in size, if you will, 

 13    between a seven gigabyte file and a 650 megabytes 

 14    file?

 15         A.    You simply do the math, divide 650 

 16    megabytes into seven gigabytes with the appropriate 

 17    conversion for units and you get the required 

 18    compression ratio to take all of the information on 

 19    the DVD down to 650 megabytes.

 20         Q.    Tell me approximately what that ratio is 

 21    as you sit here today?

 22         A.    If you give me a calculator, I will look 

 23    it up for you.  It's simply a math problem.

 24         Q.    Have you attempted to compress such 

 25    video files to a size smaller than 650 megabytes?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    Because these operations are very 

  3    lengthy, time consuming operations, I have been 

  4    targeting my research first to investigate the 

  5    different codecs that are available on smaller size 

  6    files, so to save time.  Then, when I narrow down 

  7    the fields what I think might be good codecs for 

  8    further investigation, I can then investigate some 

  9    of the questions you are raise ing.

 10         Q.    So you haven't gotten there yet. 

 11         A.    That's right.

 12         Q.    When do you think you'll get there?

 13         A.    Within the next two weeks I hope. 

 14         Q.    And this is purely a function of the 

 15    research that you've been asked to undertake in 

 16    connection with this case, or is this a function of 

 17    your normal work research?

 18               MR. ATLAS:  Objection as to form.

 19               (Mr. Garbus joined the proceedings.)

 20         A.    These questions that I'm investigating 

 21    here are relevant to my normal research, but I've 

 22    been motivated to limit them because of this court 

 23    case.

 24         Q.    And prior to your involvement in this 

 25    court case you had not begun to undertake any of 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    these experiments, correct?

  3         A.    Correct.

  4         Q.    And how long have you been experimenting 

  5    with video and compression generally?

  6               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.

  7         A.    Over five years.

  8         Q.    I see. 

  9               Now, is there any magic to the 650 

 10    megabyte number?

 11         A.    That's the size of a file that you can 

 12    burn into a writable CD. 

 13         Q.    And do you know what the cost of the 

 14    equipment that's necessary to burn such a file into 

 15    a writable CD is to the consumer?

 16               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

 17         A.    Various elements are required.

 18         Q.    And what are those?

 19         A.    You need a blank CD.

 20         Q.    OK. 

 21         A.    Cost about one dollar.

 22         Q.    Right. 

 23         A.    You need a CD writable drive.  Costs 

 24    about two to $300.  Sometimes cheaper. 

 25               You need to input that drive into a 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    computer system, PC based typically.  Cost roughly 

  3    a thousand to $2,000.

  4         Q.    For the computer system. 

  5         A.    Yes.

  6         Q.    Like just a desktop PC. 

  7         A.    Correct.

  8         Q.    Anything else?

  9         A.    You need some software to actually 

 10    coordinate the copying of the file to the CD, but 

 11    that usually comes with standard packages that you 

 12    would get when you purchase the CD and the 

 13    computer.

 14         Q.    And have you burned or written to a CD 

 15    650 megabyte video files?

 16               MR. ATLAS:  Objection as to form. 

 17               Go ahead. 

 18         A.    I haven't done that myself personally, 

 19    but I have asked my graduate students to burn such 

 20    files on several occasions.

 21         Q.    And have you had occasion to play those 

 22    files back from a CD so burned? 

 23         A.    The files that I asked my graduate 

 24    students to copy onto the CD writable disks were 

 25    actually software, not video.

  1                     Ramadge

  2         Q.    Ah. 

  3               Have you ever caused audiovisual 

  4    information to be burned to a CD in a file size of 

  5    650 megabytes?

  6         A.    We regularly do backup of our home 

  7    directories, and our current backup mechanism is to 

  8    copy them to a writable CD, and inside our home 

  9    directories there will be video content.

 10         Q.    When you say your home directories, what 

 11    are you referring to specifically?

 12         A.    We have a networked computer system in 

 13    my lab.  Each faculty member and each student has a 

 14    home directory where they store the files.  Those 

 15    home directories are backed up on a regular basis 

 16    in case of a computer crash or a disk crash.

 17         Q.    And the video that's on those home 

 18    directories, what does that consist of? 

 19         A.    That's video used for research purposes, 

 20    usually small segments of video that we are testing 

 21    our algorithms on. 

 22         Q.    And when you say "small segments," how 

 23    big are those files typically?

 24         A.    File size could be as small as one 

 25    frame, it could be as large maybe as three to five 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    minutes of video.

  3         Q.    And when you say "we," who are you 

  4    referring to?

  5         A.    Myself and my graduate students.

  6         Q.    And where, to your knowledge, was this 

  7    video content obtained from?

  8         A.    Various sources.  We have our own 

  9    camera.  Some of it was taken with our own camera.  

 10    Some of it was downloaded from the web.  Some of it 

 11    has been given to us for research purposes by the 

 12    copyright holder.

 13         Q.    Ah. 

 14               And in those instances where it's given 

 15    to you by the copyright holder for research 

 16    purposes, how did you accomplish that, did you 

 17    request permission or what? 

 18               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

 19         A.    We were involved with a research 

 20    contract with an industrial partner, and the 

 21    industrial partner negotiated with the copyright 

 22    holder for permission to use a certain segment of 

 23    video content. 

 24         Q.    And was there a value to using a 

 25    particular segment?

  1                     Ramadge

  2               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

  3         A.    Some of the algorithms that we are 

  4    developing, as I said before, can be employed in 

  5    various context, so sometimes it's interesting to 

  6    restrict the video to a certain context so we can 

  7    see how our tools could be employed in that 

  8    context.

  9         Q.    And in the particular instance you were 

 10    referring to in a moment ago, when the industrial 

 11    partner obtained the right to use certain video, 

 12    what was the particular attribute of that video 

 13    that made it valuable for your research?

 14               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

 15               Are we only talking about one, or is 

 16         this on multiple occasions? 

 17               THE WITNESS:  It's on two occasions. 

 18         A.    In general terms, it was a type of 

 19    sports video. 

 20         Q.    Is that true on both occasions?

 21         A.    Yes.

 22         Q.    What kind of sport?

 23         A.    I think now I'm getting into an area 

 24    which maybe I can't talk about because I have 

 25    signed an agreement with the industrial partner not 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    to disclose.

  3         Q.    All right.  I understand it.  I'm not 

  4    asking you to do anything you'd be uncomfortable 

  5    with.

  6               Is there a reason why a sports video 

  7    presented a particular good example for your 

  8    testing, and if so, what was that?

  9         A.    There are several reasons.  One of them 

 10    is, as I pointed out before, that camera motion 

 11    might be quite important in sports videos, and we 

 12    have developed tools to help in the analysis of 

 13    video through camera motion.

 14         Q.    Gotya. 

 15               Now, you said -- and I'll try and 

 16    restrain my gotya's in deference to Mr. Garbus, who 

 17    joined us.

 18               MR. GARBUS:  Excuse me.  I have to 

 19         make a phone call.

 20         Q.    And that's an inside joke between us.

 21               You said you also downloaded video 

 22    content from the web. 

 23               Do you recall what you downloaded and 

 24    from where you downloaded it?

 25               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

  1                     Ramadge

  2               Go ahead. 

  3         A.    I can't recall all of the instances, but 

  4    movie studios sometimes put trailers or short clips 

  5    from their latest releases on the web.

  6         Q.    Are those encrypted?

  7         A.    Those are not encrypted.

  8         Q.    Those are in digital form on the web, 

  9    yes? 

 10         A.    Yes.

 11         Q.    Have you personally had any experience 

 12    in obtaining permission to use digital video 

 13    materials from copyright holders?

 14         A.    My only experience in that regard 

 15    directly is in asking other professors if I could 

 16    use a video which I know they were in possession of 

 17    and to be told that no, I couldn't, because I 

 18    wasn't part of the agreement for the use of that 

 19    video. 

 20         Q.    And by "that" did you understand these 

 21    professors to mean that they themselves had 

 22    obtained agreements from the copyright holders with 

 23    respect to the videos they had in their possession?

 24         A.    That was my understanding.  But they may 

 25    not have obtained agreements from the copyright 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    holder, typically from industrial partners who have 

  3    obtained the agreement with the copyright holders.

  4         Q.    Thank you for clarifying that. 

  5               Let's take a look at your declaration 

  6    for a few minutes we've marked as Exhibit 1. 

  7               I'd like to take you through paragraph 

  8    two and the list of subjects that you provide in 

  9    paragraph two, starting with the word "including 

 10    regarding"; do you see where I am?

 11         A.    Yes.

 12         Q.    And we have "Video Image Processing," 

 13    right?

 14         A.    Correct.

 15         Q.    And what is that?

 16         A.    That's reading in the video content, 

 17    usually in digital form, and then analyzing or 

 18    changing that video content into a new form and 

 19    outputting that and then viewing that on the 

 20    screen.

 21         Q.    When you say "reading in," do you mean 

 22    copying?

 23         A.    No.  I mean reading from a file.  So 

 24    this would be stored on the computer in digital 

 25    format.  We would open a file and read that file 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    into a piece of software that we have written.  

  3    That piece of software would perform various 

  4    analysis, possibly processing, changing the 

  5    content, and either write that out to a new file 

  6    that we later view, or immediately display on the 

  7    screen.

  8         Q.    And where does the video content that's 

  9    on the computer come from in the first place, is it 

 10    copied into the computer?

 11               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

 12         A.    It wouldn't need to be loaded onto or 

 13    into the computer. 

 14         Q.    And the processing that you're talking 

 15    about, I just need to clarify a couple things on 

 16    that.  First you had talked about different kinds 

 17    of search algorithms, I believe, earlier in your 

 18    testimony. 

 19               You include that in the process you're 

 20    referring to now?

 21         A.    Yes.

 22         Q.    Is there any other kind of processing 

 23    that you're talking about apart from that?

 24         A.    Yes.

 25         Q.    And what is that?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    We have developed algorithms which will 

  3    allow you to view the stored video in novel ways.

  4         Q.    Can you tell me a little bit about that, 

  5    please. 

  6         A.    One way is to create what's called a 

  7    mosaic from the video, where you combine the 

  8    sequential frames into one image so that you can 

  9    have a general overview of what's in the video by 

 10    looking at one image.

 11         Q.    Hm.

 12               And what's the purpose of that?

 13         A.    It's a tool for browsing through the 

 14    video.

 15         Q.    I see. 

 16               Any other kinds of image processing?

 17         A.    Yes.  We've had students work on 

 18    different ways of interpolating video frames, 

 19    rotating algorithms or rotating and lodging video 

 20    frames, dropping video frames, and various other 

 21    things. 

 22         Q.    And the value of those kinds of 

 23    processes is what?

 24         A.    If I want to create a mosaic of a video, 

 25    show you one still image of a large size, which 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    encapsulates or summarizes what's in the video, I 

  3    need to line up the video frame on the same plane, 

  4    that requires some sort of nonlinear 

  5    transformation, such as a rotation of an image 

  6    would be an elementary example of that, and we 

  7    would like to be able to do these things very 

  8    quickly, to do these elementary pieces of the 

  9    puzzle.

 10         Q.    And what's the value of that kind of 

 11    video manipulation? 

 12         A.    If you had -- well, it has several 

 13    applications.  One is to give you a very quick 

 14    summary, snapshot of what's happening in this 

 15    video.  Another one might be a different way of 

 16    presenting the video content just for the consumer.  

 17    Another one might be as a compression tool, if 

 18    nothing in the video is changing very rapidly, then 

 19    creating a mosaic might be a good basis for a 

 20    compression technology. 

 21         Q.    Are all video compression technologies 

 22    to some degree lossy?

 23         A.    No.  There are two types of compression 

 24    technology.  That's lossless compression and lossy 

 25    compression.

  1                     Ramadge

  2         Q.    Is one better than the other?

  3               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

  4         A.    It depends upon the application. 

  5         Q.    Are there trade-offs between lossless 

  6    and lossy types of compression, and if so, what are 

  7    they?

  8               MR. ATLAS:  Objection to form. 

  9         A.    There are applications where it's deemed 

 10    more suitable to do lossless compression and there 

 11    are applications where it's deemed more suitable to 

 12    do lossy compression. 

 13         Q.    And can you just generally describe to 

 14    me what that difference is, where lossless 

 15    compression is preferable and where lossy 

 16    compression is preferable?

 17               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.

 18               You can answer.

 19         A.    One example where lossless compression 

 20    is preferred is in medical imaging.  Medical images 

 21    are very large, so you still have to store them in 

 22    a compressed format to save space on your computer 

 23    system, but you cannot or are unwilling to tolerate 

 24    any loss of information, so therefore lossless 

 25    compression is required.

  1                     Ramadge

  2               In consumer oriented video it's 

  3    permissible or deemed permissible to use a lossy 

  4    compression, because you can drop perceptual 

  5    insignificant pieces of the video but still keep 

  6    the consumer happy. 

  7         Q.    Thank you.  That was very clear. 

  8               With respect to the processing you 

  9    described a moment ago in your answer, rotating 

 10    images, dropping images, what have you, what were 

 11    the source materials for those processes?

 12               MR. ATLAS:  If you know. 

 13         A.    Whatever video we have available on our 

 14    computer system. 

 15         Q.    And again going back to the directories 

 16    that I think you mentioned --

 17         A.    Yes.

 18         Q.    -- among you and your graduate 

 19    students --

 20         A.    Yes.

 21         Q.    -- you talked about sourcing materials 

 22    from the web, sourcing materials through 

 23    arrangements with industrial partners, who had made 

 24    arrangements with copyright owners, and are there 

 25    any other --

  1                     Ramadge

  2               MR. ATLAS:  And I think filming 

  3         himself.

  4         A.    We have our own camera.

  5               (Discussion off the record.)

  6         Q.    Have you ever had occasion to decrypt 

  7    any encrypted digital video in connection with your 

  8    work?

  9         A.    In connection with this case I have.

 10         Q.    Prior to this case did you ever have 

 11    occasion to decrypt any encrypted video in 

 12    connection with your work?

 13         A.    That cannot recall.  Someone may have 

 14    sent me a mail message in encrypted format and I 

 15    may have decrypted it, but I don't recall.

 16         Q.    When you say "a mail message," do you 

 17    mean an e-mail with text?

 18         A.    E-mail message.

 19         Q.    Are you talking about PGP?

 20         A.    Yes.

 21         Q.    But with respect to video content, have 

 22    you ever had occasion to decrypt encrypted video 

 23    content in connection with any of your work prior 

 24    to this case?

 25         A.    I don't recall doing so. 

  1                     Ramadge

  2         Q.    Now, have you had occasion since your 

  3    involvement in this case to decrypt any encrypted 

  4    video?

  5         A.    For the purposes of preparation for this 

  6    case, yes.

  7         Q.    And what did you do in that regard, sir?

  8         A.    I went to the web and started a web 

  9    search under the search DeCSS.  That came up with 

 10    many web pages.  I selected one of those and went 

 11    there and downloaded some software material which 

 12    claimed to do decryption of DVDs. 

 13         Q.    Do you recall what web page you 

 14    downloaded DeCSS from?

 15         A.    There were many web pages that resulted 

 16    from the search.  I went through several until I 

 17    found the program, and took it off the first one I 

 18    found.

 19         Q.    Do you recall which web page was the 

 20    first one that you found in your search?

 21         A.    No, I don't.

 22         Q.    Was it 2600? 

 23         A.    I don't know. 

 24         Q.    Was it there any reason why you did not 

 25    go to 2600's web page?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    At that time I was not familiar with 

  3    2600's web page.

  4         Q.    And this was after you got involved in 

  5    this case? 

  6         A.    Yes.

  7         Q.    But you weren't familiar --

  8         A.    I had heard the name 2600, but I knew 

  9    nothing else about it.

 10         Q.    You didn't know they had a web page. 

 11         A.    I knew that they had a web page.

 12         Q.    Did you know that they were essentially 

 13    accused of providing DeCSS through their web page 

 14    in this case?

 15         A.    I did.

 16         Q.    But you did not see fit to visit the 

 17    2600 web page in connection with your researches in 

 18    this case?

 19               MR. ATLAS:  Asked and answered. 

 20         A.    My normal mode is to go straight to a 

 21    search engine and type what I want into the search 

 22    engine.

 23         Q.    I see. 

 24               Did anyone tell you not to go to 2600 in 

 25    connection with your researches?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    No. 

  3         Q.    So you downloaded DeCSS from a web page, 

  4    correct?

  5         A.    Correct.

  6         Q.    And when was this, approximately?

  7         A.    About three weeks ago.

  8         Q.    And then what did you do with respect to 

  9    DeCSS?

 10         A.    I examined the code.  I ran the program.  

 11    It seemed to function and do what it said it was 

 12    claiming to do.

 13         Q.    How do you know that?

 14         A.    I ran it.

 15         Q.    You say you ran it.  What do you mean?

 16         A.    I executed it.  I doubled clicked on it 

 17    on my icon and it opened up.  It was able to read 

 18    the contents of a DVD. 

 19         Q.    Do you recall which DVD you used in 

 20    connection with DeCSS?

 21         A.    "Contact."

 22         Q.    Jodie Foster feature length film?

 23         A.    Correct.

 24         Q.    Did DeCSS cause an unencrypted digital 

 25    copy of the content of the movie "Contact" to be 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    sent to your hard drive?

  3         A.    In order to save time I didn't decrypt 

  4    the entire movie.  But it did appear to decrypt 

  5    whatever I asked it to decrypt.

  6         Q.    And these were in the form of DVD files?

  7         A.    Yes.

  8         Q.    Do you recall how many you caused to be 

  9    copied to your drive?

 10         A.    Three or four. 

 11         Q.    And then what did you do with DeCSS for 

 12    those .vob files?

 13               MR. ATLAS:  Note my objection.

 14               (Record read.)

 15         A.    I did nothing further with the program.  

 16    I attempted to play the vob files using my standard 

 17    vob player that came with my laptop.  It refused to 

 18    play them.  But subsequently I was able to 

 19    transcode those files into a different format and 

 20    play them.

 21         Q.    What kind of media player do you have 

 22    installed in your computer?

 23         A.    I believe it's called DVD Media Express.

 24         Q.    And when you say that you were -- you 

 25    then transcoded those files and played them, what 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    did you transcode them into and what kind of player 

  3    did you ultimately play them back on?

  4               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.

  5               THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, could you 

  6         repeat the question?

  7               (Record read.)

  8               THE WITNESS:  OK. 

  9               (Discussion off the record.)

 10               MR. HART:  Mr. Garbus is making hand 

 11         motions again to me.

 12               MR. ATLAS:  I think he's trying to 

 13         find out how long we're going with this 

 14         witness.

 15               MR. HART:  Right.  We're doing great, 

 16         so keep moving along.

 17               MR. GARBUS:  You're doing great if we 

 18         do it before Sunday night at 6:00.

 19               MR. HART:  I'm sorry, we had a 

 20         question pending?

 21         A.    I transcoded them into a AVI format and 

 22    played them with the Microsoft media player. 

 23         Q.    Did you try and play the nontranscoded 

 24    .vob files using your Microsoft video player?

 25         A.    I did not.  

  1                     Ramadge

  2               Yet.

  3         Q.    Thank you. 

  4               Have you done anything else with those 

  5    .vob files or with DeCSS other than what you've 

  6    already described here today?

  7               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

  8         A.    I have opened them up in other media 

  9    players and transcoders and experimented with 

 10    different ways of transcoding and different -- 

 11    transcoding them to different sizes, different 

 12    compression rates. 

 13         Q.    So when you say "transcoding," you're 

 14    including within that term compression processing; 

 15    is that correct?

 16         A.    Yes.

 17         Q.    What compression processes did you apply 

 18    to the .vob files that you extracted from the movie 

 19    "Contact"?

 20         A.    I used a program called Flask MPEG.  

 21    That program allows you to do transcoding, and you 

 22    can set various parameters, frame size, frame rate. 

 23         Q.    And what was the result of your 

 24    processing the "Contact" vob files with Flask MPEG?

 25         A.    I produced AVI files and I was able to 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    play those AVI files.

  3         Q.    How did they look?

  4         A.    Sorry? 

  5         Q.    How did they look? 

  6         A.    They contained visible artifacts.

  7         Q.    And that was playing back on what, your 

  8    computer monitor? 

  9         A.    Correct.

 10         Q.    And do you know what the effective 

 11    compression ratio you were using was?

 12         A.    I think we went over this already, but 

 13    no, I can't remember.  There were various choices 

 14    one can make, and I had started with small files 

 15    just to save time.

 16         Q.    I understand that we went over the 

 17    general issue of compression ratios, but what I'm 

 18    asking specifically, with respect to your 

 19    processing of the vob from the movie "Contact" with 

 20    using the Flask MPEG process, do you know what the 

 21    effective compression ratio was with respect to 

 22    those particular experiments?

 23         A.    Not off the top of my head.

 24         Q.    Was it greater than ten to one?

 25         A.    I can't recall. 

  1                     Ramadge

  2         Q.    What else did you do with the vob files 

  3    from the movie "Contact"?

  4         A.    Because these files take up a large 

  5    amount of disk space, after my experiments are 

  6    completed each day I delete them so I have room for 

  7    other business. 

  8         Q.    Now, isn't it also possible for you to 

  9    transfer those files to an auxiliary hard drive?

 10         A.    Because my research lab deals with video 

 11    and multi-media, we're constantly short of disk 

 12    space.

 13         Q.    I see. 

 14               Do you have any idea what the market 

 15    cost is of accessory hard drive space on a gigabyte 

 16    basis or based on products you --

 17         A.    The hardware cost is inexpensive, but 

 18    maintenance is quite high.

 19         Q.    By maintenance, what --

 20         A.    We have to get someone to set it up and 

 21    make sure it's working correctly.

 22         Q.    Have we covered all the different things 

 23    you did with DeCSS and the vob files from the movie 

 24    "Contact"?

 25         A.    I believe so.  But I also want to say 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    this is ongoing effort.

  3         Q.    I see. 

  4               Have you used DeCSS to decrypt any other 

  5    DVDs apart from "Contact"? 

  6         A.    No. 

  7               MR. GARBUS:  Excuse me, "apart 

  8         from" --

  9               MR. HART:  "Contact."

 10               MR. ATLAS:  That was the movie. 

 11         Q.    Did you experiment in the electronic 

 12    transmission of any of those files from one 

 13    computer to another or via the Internet?

 14               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.

 15         A.    No.

 16               MR. HART:  Why don't we take five 

 17         minutes.

 18               (Recess taken.)

 19         Q.    You said earlier in your testimony, 

 20    professor, that you've had occasion to download a 

 21    number of different codecs from the Internet that 

 22    are referred to as DIVX, although you can't be sure 

 23    it's one particular type of codec or another at 

 24    this point; is that a fair statement?

 25         A.    There's very little information about 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    what DIVX actually is. 

  3         Q.    Do you have on your computers the 

  4    downloads of those codecs and where you got them 

  5    from?

  6         A.    I have the downloads.  I don't believe 

  7    the source of the download is stored.

  8         Q.    Can you recall as we sit here today the 

  9    names of any of the pages, in rough terms, of where 

 10    you downloaded so-called DIVX codecs from on the 

 11    net?

 12         A.    I started a search engine and searched 

 13    under "DIVX."  There were many hits.  Many of them 

 14    referred to something completely different.  It was 

 15    a video rental scheme.  So it required some 

 16    searching through these to find an actual reference 

 17    to this codec.  At this point I can't recall what 

 18    that site was. 

 19         Q.    Do you recall looking at a page or 

 20    downloading any codecs from a page called FM 4?

 21         A.    It doesn't ring a bell.

 22         Q.    Do you recall if any of the pages from 

 23    which you downloaded some form of DIVX codec 

 24    contained any references to DeCSS?

 25         A.    I don't recall whether the actual page 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    that I downloaded these codecs from -- and I think 

  3    there were several such pages where I downloaded 

  4    codecs.  I don't recall whether they also had any 

  5    reference to the decryption software. 

  6         Q.    In order to use the codecs that we've 

  7    been referring to as DIVX codecs with the caveat 

  8    you made earlier in your testimony about what 

  9    precisely they are, is it necessary to decrypt the 

 10    digital video content before you process it using 

 11    such a codecs?

 12         A.    With the codecs that I've used to date, 

 13    they appear to be simple transcoders.  They assume 

 14    you start with a source which is a valid format, 

 15    and they produce an output.  They do not assume 

 16    that there's any encryption of the source, nor do 

 17    they encrypt the output.

 18         Q.    "Nor do they" --

 19         A.    -- encrypt the output. 

 20         Q.    Let me just clarify your answer and make 

 21    it simple for my simple mind. 

 22               Is it necessary to use these so-called 

 23    DIVX codecs to work with unencrypted content, or 

 24    will they process encrypted -- will they compress 

 25    encrypted content?

  1                     Ramadge

  2               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.

  3         A.    I don't know. 

  4         Q.    Do you have any understanding of why 

  5    these video codecs are made available on the 

  6    Internet?

  7         A.    They're very useful tools. 

  8         Q.    For making big video files smaller? 

  9         A.    No, for transforming video content in 

 10    one format into an alternative format. 

 11               MR. ATLAS:  You've got to give me a 

 12         second to object before you answer.

 13               MR. GARBUS:  Could I have the last 

 14         question and answer, please.

 15               (Record read.)

 16         Q.    And what is the value of transforming 

 17    the video content from one format to another?

 18         A.    If we were doing an experiment, and we 

 19    have video in MPEG I format, we may also wish to 

 20    run the same experiment on the same video but in a 

 21    different format, in, for example, AVI format.  So 

 22    such a tool would enable us to use the same video 

 23    in two different formats, running the same 

 24    experiment.

 25         Q.    Do you have any views as to whether the 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    AVI format is preferable for consumer use, say, 

  3    compared to any of the MPEG formats that we talked 

  4    about?

  5               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

  6         A.    It's a very subjective decision, and I 

  7    also believe that Microsoft is constantly updating 

  8    their video formats. 

  9         Q.    And when you say Microsoft is updating 

 10    their video formats, which video formats are you 

 11    referring to by name?

 12         A.    I don't know the exact names that 

 13    Microsoft gives them, but I know Microsoft is 

 14    constantly developing new tools and new formats for 

 15    distribution of digital media. 

 16         Q.    Who developed AVI?

 17         A.    I believe it's a Microsoft product.

 18         Q.    And what about the MPEG formats?

 19         A.    That's an ISO standard.

 20         Q.    Going back to your declaration, 

 21    paragraph two, where you say this list, video and 

 22    image processing, are there any other areas, apart 

 23    from what you've testified to here today, where you 

 24    have been involved in video and image processing?

 25         A.    Can you I ask for clarification of the 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    question? 

  3               Do you mean from this list here?

  4         Q.    Right. 

  5               Looking at paragraph number two, you 

  6    give a list of topics starting with video and image 

  7    processing and so on. 

  8         A.    I understand.

  9         Q.    And you've given us some testimony here 

 10    today about what you've done in connection with 

 11    video or image processing, your experience with 

 12    that. 

 13               I'm asking apart from what you've 

 14    testified to here today, have you done anything 

 15    else in connection with video and image processing 

 16    that we haven't talked about. 

 17         A.    I've had various projects with both 

 18    undergraduates at Princeton, graduate students at 

 19    Princeton, summer students at Princeton related to 

 20    different issues in video processing and image 

 21    processing that we haven't talked about here today.

 22         Q.    Anything relevant to this case as far as 

 23    you're concerned?

 24         A.    Only to the extent that they're in the 

 25    general video processing area. 

  1                     Ramadge

  2         Q.    Now, you say that when you downloaded 

  3    DeCSS you observed it and ran it. 

  4         A.    Correct.

  5         Q.    What form was it in when you downloaded 

  6    it?

  7         A.    I downloaded source code and executable 

  8    code.

  9         Q.    From the same site?

 10         A.    Yes, they were both on the same site. 

 11         Q.    Now, also in paragraph two, after video 

 12    and image processing you say hybrid slash switching 

 13    system slash adaptive control. 

 14               Can you tell us what that is? 

 15         A.    That's an area of research concerned 

 16    with developing the algorithms that process 

 17    measured signals and make decisions based on those 

 18    processed signals in order to control the future 

 19    evolution of the signals.

 20         Q.    Can you describe some of the 

 21    applications to which you put your work in the area 

 22    of hybrid/switching systems/adaptive controls?

 23               MR. GARBUS:  Excuse me, can I hear the 

 24         last answer again?

 25               (Record read.)

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    It's a very broad area, so it covers 

  3    many different applications, all the way from 

  4    temperature control in buildings to flight control 

  5    of aircraft.

  6         Q.    With respect to video systems, what is 

  7    the application of hybrid/switching 

  8    systems/adaptive control?

  9         A.    My research in this area has been on 

 10    fundamental pieces of larger problems, so those 

 11    individual pieces may be transferred to different 

 12    problems, perhaps in the video area.

 13         Q.    Have you done any work with 

 14    hybrid/switching systems/adaptive control in 

 15    connection with video?

 16         A.    We wrote one paper, myself and 

 17    colleagues, on the stability of mosaicing 

 18    techniques, which used some of my prior knowledge 

 19    obtained from work in this other area. 

 20         Q.    The other area being hybrid switching? 

 21         A.    Yes, correct.

 22         Q.    And what I am trying to get at -- I 

 23    don't want to belabor this -- is simply what 

 24    relevance hybrid/switching systems/adaptive control 

 25    has, based on your understanding, based on what you 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    bring to the table here in this case. 

  3         A.    It's my general background.

  4         Q.    Oh, I see. 

  5               Stochastic optimization, can you tell us 

  6    what that is?

  7               (Discussion off the record.)

  8         Q.    The question is can you tell us what 

  9    that is.

 10         A.    Sometimes when you're trying to optimize 

 11    something you get noisy measurements, corrupted 

 12    measurements of either the quantity you're trying 

 13    to optimize or maybe some gradient or differential 

 14    of that object.  Stochastic optimization describes 

 15    the general class of algorithms taking such 

 16    corrupted or noisy observations and still doing the 

 17    minimization or maximization of an objective 

 18    function. 

 19         Q.    Does stochastic optimization relate in 

 20    any way to video codecs?

 21         A.    I haven't seen it applied to video 

 22    codecs.

 23         Q.    Is that an area of possible application?

 24         A.    Many things are possible.  If we knew 

 25    all the answers ahead of time, half the game would 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    be over.

  3         Q.    How true. 

  4               What relevance does stochastic 

  5    optimization have to video or imaging processing or 

  6    anything that you're prepared to testify on in 

  7    connection with this case?

  8               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

  9         A.    It has general relevance to some of our 

 10    work in video processing, because when we, for 

 11    example, do camera motion estimation or mosaicing, 

 12    it involves estimating certain parameters.  Those 

 13    estimates are obtained by minimizing a performance 

 14    measure, so we're doing an optimization of a 

 15    performance measure. 

 16         Q.    But as you sit here today none of the 

 17    work that you've done in the area of stochastic 

 18    optimization has been applied to video processing 

 19    or video compression? 

 20               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

 21         A.    My research has applied certain ideas 

 22    from optimization, where the stochastic 

 23    optimization, for example, for creating video 

 24    mosaics, which we've already discussed.

 25         Q.    And other than that?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    That's been my application.

  3               MR. HART:  Sorry, Marty.

  4         Q.    Let's turn to paragraph three of your 

  5    declaration.

  6               MR. GARBUS:  You've impressed the hell 

  7         out of me, Bill, with your knowledge.  But 

  8         that was serious, that wasn't a joke.

  9               MR. HART:  Well, thank you.  That's 

 10         better than the insult you gave me the last 

 11         time.

 12         Q.    Paragraph number three.  You say you'll 

 13    be testifying in this case with respect to, and I 

 14    quote, "the necessity for and uses of digital video 

 15    information such as that found on DVDs in 

 16    connection with my present research on video 

 17    processing and video recognition software," and 

 18    then the sentence continues. 

 19               You see where I am?

 20         A.    Yes.

 21         Q.    But is it fair to stop there only in 

 22    that after the word "and" we're talking about 

 23    something else?   Can we divide this into two 

 24    subjects, that is, necessity for and uses of 

 25    digital video information such as that found on 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    DVDs in connection with your present research on 

  3    video processing and video recognition software, 

  4    and the other subject is video compression 

  5    technology and the effect of compression on the 

  6    quality of video images?

  7               MR. ATLAS:  Are you asking whether one 

  8         relates to the other?

  9         Q.    (Continuing) Can we deal with those 

 10    fairly as two subjects? 

 11         A.    There is some overlap, because one of my 

 12    current projects is involved in a new form of video 

 13    compression.

 14         Q.    OK.  I'm sorry for the awkwardness of 

 15    the question.

 16         A.    I understand.

 17         Q.    I'm trying to make it simpler. 

 18               Let's focus on the first in paragraph 

 19    three, if you would.  You say you'll be testifying 

 20    with respect to the necessity for and uses of 

 21    digital video information such as that found on 

 22    DVDs in connection with your present research. 

 23               What is the gist of your testimony in 

 24    that regard?

 25         A.    Briefly that DVD is a digital form of 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    video.  We are developing algorithms for indexes, 

  3    searching, and analysis of digital video.  To 

  4    adequately test our algorithms we do need a large 

  5    supply of digital video subject to fair use.  It 

  6    would be a very good source for us if we could use 

  7    the video available on DVDs. 

  8         Q.    And in order to use the video available 

  9    on DVDs are you suggesting you would need to 

 10    decrypt it?

 11         A.    Yes.

 12         Q.    Are you aware if there are any DVDs not 

 13    encrypted with CSS, that are not commercially 

 14    available?

 15         A.    I haven't seen any, but it wouldn't 

 16    surprise me if there are unencrypted DeCSS.

 17         Q.    Would those be of use to your research 

 18    without the necessity of decrypting them?

 19               MR. ATLAS:  If they exist.

 20               MR. HART:  If they exist, sure.

 21         A.    Generally, if we want to test our 

 22    algorithms, we want to have video that is 

 23    representative of the video out there in the 

 24    consumer marketplace.  To ensure that, we prefer 

 25    not to have to select a sub set of available 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    videos, since that isn't necessarily representative 

  3    of what's out there. 

  4         Q.    Do you know what's, quote, out there in 

  5    terms of commercially available DeCSS as we sit 

  6    here today?

  7         A.    Only through visits to the video store. 

  8         Q.    And other than the decryption of the 

  9    movie "Contact" that you mentioned earlier in your 

 10    testimony, have you had occasion to decrypt any 

 11    other CSS encrypted DeCSS in your researches or 

 12    experiments?

 13         A.    No. 

 14         Q.    Now, it's possible, is it not, to take 

 15    an analog source of video information and to 

 16    digitize it?  Isn't that true?

 17         A.    That is correct.

 18         Q.    And for the purposes of your research, 

 19    is there any difference between sourcing the 

 20    material from an original digital source as opposed 

 21    to one that was digitized from an analog source?

 22         A.    The source in digital format is usually 

 23    preferable.  It's less noisy.  It has fewer 

 24    artifacts introduced from the analog recording 

 25    process and the subsequent digitization.  And the 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    digitized analog signal would have certain 

  3    characteristics peculiar to the particular coder or 

  4    digitizer that we used, so, again, we would be 

  5    restricting us to a particular class of video, 

  6    mainly the class produced by this particular 

  7    encoder.

  8         Q.    Is it your testimony that by converting 

  9    the signal from digital to analog you reduce 

 10    artifacts?

 11         A.    The artifacts are presently in the 

 12    analog because it's recorded on analog tape.  The 

 13    digitization process would introduce other 

 14    artifacts, yes. 

 15         Q.    Now, in all events we're also talking 

 16    about content that has been compressed to one 

 17    degree or another, correct?

 18         A.    Not the analogs.

 19         Q.    Fair enough. 

 20               With respect to all the signals that are 

 21    digitized, or if they are originally a digital 

 22    domain, we're talking about signal that has in all 

 23    circumstances been processed, I'm sorry, compressed 

 24    to one degree or another; is that correct?

 25               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    In the case of large video files, that's 

  3    true simply because of space restrictions.  Small 

  4    video files are sometimes transmitted in an 

  5    uncompressed format. 

  6         Q.    And when you say "transmitted," what are 

  7    you referring to?

  8         A.    They could be posted on the web.  They 

  9    could be burnt onto a CD. 

 10         Q.    Isn't the same true with compressed 

 11    video files? 

 12         A.    Compressed video files are usually, if 

 13    they're large, delivered on a CD or a DVD format.

 14         Q.    And how do you know that?

 15         A.    From our own experience with our 

 16    research.

 17         Q.    Could you elaborate, please? 

 18         A.    Even compressed video files are very 

 19    large, so moving them around is not necessarily an 

 20    easy task. 

 21         Q.    Now, when you talk about your present 

 22    research on video processing and video recognition 

 23    software, have you caused the video material that 

 24    you are analyzing in these researches to be copied 

 25    to or loaded onto a computer in order to analyze 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    it?

  3               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

  4         A.    Because these files are large and 

  5    processing them takes a long time, we like to have 

  6    them on the hard drive to minimize time to read 

  7    them.

  8         Q.    And how much video information is 

  9    presently stored on the hard drive you're using, in 

 10    gigabytes?

 11         A.    I have no idea.  We have about 

 12    36 gigabytes of disk space, but I don't know what 

 13    proportion of those, code, video, e-mail, other 

 14    programs, I don't know the breakdown. 

 15         Q.    Now, are these hard drive files 

 16    accessible to the public or only to persons working 

 17    with you in your lab?

 18         A.    Only to registered users within my 

 19    research group.

 20         Q.    And why is that?

 21         A.    It's a standard procedure for security 

 22    reasons to always have user accounts with passwords 

 23    and group permissions on certain files to restrict 

 24    access, so you can be sure who has access to what 

 25    type of program, software, data.

  1                     Ramadge

  2         Q.    And what's the reason for restricting 

  3    access to those programs and that data?

  4         A.    In some of the agreements that we've 

  5    made with our industrial partners we sign an 

  6    agreement that we would not distribute digital 

  7    media given to us or for our research purpose.  We 

  8    make a best effort to fulfill that by restricting 

  9    access to that media. 

 10         Q.    Now, again focusing on your statement in 

 11    paragraph three about your present research on 

 12    video processing and video recognition software, is 

 13    that essentially what we were talking about earlier 

 14    in your testimony today about developing algorithms 

 15    that can search video content?

 16         A.    Correct.

 17         Q.    Is there anything else, any outside 

 18    indicator to add to that in the context of what you 

 19    may or will be testifying to in this case?

 20         A.    My present research is that, what you've 

 21    just mentioned as one component.  The -- sorry.  

 22    The video mosaic, the estimating of camera motion.  

 23    So there are various analysis tools for compressed 

 24    video in digital format, and those would be used 

 25    for searching database creation, index creation in 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    a library of digital video. 

  3               We have other research efforts under way 

  4    in analysis of video for different purposes, for 

  5    recognition and tracking purposes, detecting 

  6    objects, tracking them, and possibly recognizing 

  7    certain attributes of those moving objects. 

  8         Q.    What's the potential application of 

  9    that?

 10         A.    There are many potential applications.  

 11    One could think of applications in surveillance. 

 12         Q.    Does that involve use of decrypting 

 13    DeCSS that are partially available?

 14         A.    It could if we need a source of video to 

 15    test our algorithms.  DeCSS could be a very 

 16    fruitful source of video.

 17         Q.    Now, isn't it true that you could make 

 18    digital video using the digital camera and 

 19    equipment that you have in your lab?

 20         A.    That is correct.  But as I've also 

 21    stated, if you want to test your algorithms, you 

 22    would like to have independently created video to 

 23    test your algorithm.  That's just a fundamental 

 24    aspect of the scientific method. 

 25         Q.    And just clarify one more thing and then 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    we'll move on, and that is what is the value of 

  3    using  commercially released movies in testing 

  4    processes that involve, say, for example, security, 

  5    watching moving objects and the like?

  6               MR. ATLAS:  Asked and answered. 

  7               You can answer it again. 

  8         A.    I gave one example of where that might 

  9    apply, surveillance, but there are many examples.

 10         Q.    Including watching the basketball?

 11         A.    One application which we have a 

 12    demonstration is to segment the moving players in a 

 13    sports video, create a mosaic and reinsert the 

 14    players back on the video mosaic.

 15         Q.    OK, thanks for clarifying that. 

 16               You say in paragraph three you'll be 

 17    testifying in this case about video compression 

 18    technology and the affect of compression on the 

 19    quality of video images.

 20         A.    Correct.

 21         Q.    What does that refer to?

 22         A.    Because video is very large file and 

 23    needs to be compressed in order to be stored and 

 24    transmitted either on DVD, CD or electronically, 

 25    there are various trade-offs involved in 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    compressing video.  You can gain a smaller file 

  3    size.  That's an advantage if that's your 

  4    objective, but you have to give up something else 

  5    in return.  My testimony will be concerned with 

  6    what trade-offs you need to obtain your goals.

  7         Q.    Can you tell me what your testimony is?

  8         A.    We discussed tests that I'm undertaking 

  9    at the moment, taking DVD vob files, transcoding 

 10    them to different formats, different ultimate file 

 11    sizes, look at what rates can be achieved, what 

 12    frame rates, what frame sizes in terms of number of 

 13    pixels, and subjective measure of quality of the 

 14    resultant video.

 15         Q.    And beyond what you've testified to 

 16    earlier today, is there anything else that you 

 17    haven't already testified, that you contemplate may 

 18    be included in your testimony at the trial?

 19         A.    As I have said previously, this 

 20    investigation is in progress.

 21         Q.    Right.

 22         A.    If we discover anything else subsequent 

 23    to today, it may appear in my testimony, but it's 

 24    not known to me at this point in time. 

 25         Q.    Do you have any idea how you're going to 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    measure this objective quality of the resultant 

  3    videos derived from the various compression 

  4    experiments that you said you're still in the 

  5    process of undertaking?

  6               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

  7         A.    It appears from my initial 

  8    investigations that the quality of the videos is 

  9    visually quite different, so therefore a mere 

 10    visual inspection may be adequate to demonstrate 

 11    the significant difference in the quality.

 12         Q.    And what are we comparing?  What is 

 13    being used in the context of the comparison you 

 14    just described?

 15         A.    So the vob file from a DVD and its 

 16    existing format as it exists on the DVD and the 

 17    quality therein compared to a transcoded file 

 18    targeted at 650 megabytes size, roughly. 

 19         Q.    And you're saying that if you, Peter 

 20    Ramadge, were to look at the vob file on the one 

 21    hand and a compressed version of that vob file that 

 22    had been compressed to a 650 megabytes file size, 

 23    that it can be obvious to you the quality 

 24    difference between the two. 

 25         A.    That has been my impression with the 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    experiments I've done to date.

  3         Q.    And what experiments have led you to 

  4    that conclusion so far?

  5         A.    I have taken vob files from a DVD, 

  6    decrypted them, transcoded them down to a smallest 

  7    frame size, slower frame rate, and then I have 

  8    played them, stored them in AVI format, and played 

  9    them using the Microsoft media player.

 10         Q.    That's using AVI?

 11         A.    Yes.

 12         Q.    You haven't yet done it with DIVX or 

 13    so-called DIVX, correct?

 14         A.    I've downloaded a bunch of codecs.  I am 

 15    working my way through them.

 16         Q.    Right.  OK.

 17               Are you aware of any writable DVD 

 18    formats by which the vob files can be transferred 

 19    onto a readable disk without the necessity of 

 20    substantial compression or any additional 

 21    compression?

 22               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

 23         Q.    (Continuing) Beyond that which is in the 

 24    DVD movie to begin with.

 25               THE WITNESS:  May I just hear the 

  1                     Ramadge

  2         question, please?

  3               (Record read.)

  4               MR. ATLAS:  Objection to the whole 

  5         question. 

  6         A.    Perhaps you could rephrase the question, 

  7    because I'm a little confused.

  8         Q.    Delighted to. 

  9               Are you aware of any writable DVD 

 10    formats that are currently in the marketplace or 

 11    are forthcoming to the marketplace?

 12               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.

 13         A.    I believe I've seen some commercial 

 14    advertisements -- I don't know if they're 

 15    prereleased advertising or release advertising -- 

 16    for something called a DVD writable drive, but I do 

 17    not know anything beyond that.

 18         Q.    You've never worked with one. 

 19         A.    No. 

 20         Q.    Is it your understanding, based on what 

 21    you've read or know, that you could transfer the 

 22    unencrypted vob files from -- taken from a DVD 

 23    movie onto a writable DVD format without the 

 24    necessity of further reducing the file size through 

 25    a compression process?

  1                     Ramadge

  2               MR. ATLAS:  Before you answer, could 

  3         you just read that back?  I'm sorry.

  4               (Record read.)

  5               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.

  6               If you know. 

  7         A.    I'm still a little confused with the 

  8    question.

  9         Q.    I'm sorry.

 10               MR. GARBUS:  Can I hear the question 

 11         again?

 12               MR. HART:  I'll be happy to rephrase 

 13         it. 

 14               MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead. 

 15         Q.    Do you have any understanding of the 

 16    file size of writable DVD media based on what 

 17    you've read or know?

 18         A.    I believe it's in the range of four 

 19    gigabytes also. 

 20         Q.    Given that file size, is it possible to 

 21    transfer decrypted vob files to writable DVD 

 22    without the necessity of additional compression?

 23         A.    Assuming the DVD drive works correctly, 

 24    then you could transfer a file of up to 

 25    approximately four gigabytes onto the writable DVD 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    disk.

  3         Q.    Do you have any professional opinion 

  4    about the average quality of NYSC television that 

  5    most consumers watch in their homes?

  6         A.    No.

  7               (Laughter.)

  8               MR. ATLAS:  Substantive quality, what 

  9         they're watching or --

 10               MR. GARBUS:  You mean the Robin Byrd 

 11         show? 

 12         Q.    Since, obviously, taking a poll in this 

 13    room yields some rather strange interpretations of 

 14    my question, I think I'm going to rephrase that 

 15    question, doctor. 

 16               Do you regard NTSC standard play-back 

 17    that's commonly available in everyone's home today 

 18    in the United States to be of high quality as far 

 19    as you're professionally concerned?

 20               MR. ATLAS:  Objection to the form.

 21         A.    It's a very subjective issue.  Some 

 22    people find it adequate, other people find it 

 23    inadequate.

 24         Q.    What do you watch and own?

 25               (Discussion off the record.)

  1                     Ramadge

  2               MR. HART:  Let me rephrase it. 

  3         Q.    Can you describe the video system that 

  4    you have at home?

  5         A.    I have a television.  A VCR.

  6         Q.    Do you have a DVD player?

  7         A.    I don't have a DVD player.

  8               MR. GARBUS:  I'll ask him if he's ever 

  9         watched "Survivors."

 10               MR. HART:  Come on, Marty. 

 11         Q.    Would you agree with the statement that 

 12    the average quality of television as we know it 

 13    today by NYSC standard is pretty below par compared 

 14    to what the technology can give?

 15               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.  He's not here 

 16         as an expert as to the quality of 

 17         television.

 18               MR. HART:  I understand.

 19               MR. ATLAS:  If you have sort of a --

 20               MR. HART:  Well, he is here to talk 

 21         about quality and compression, so I think it 

 22         is fair for me to ask, based on play-back 

 23         devices that are commonly available to 

 24         people, what your impression of the average 

 25         play-back available in the home is today.

  1                     Ramadge

  2               MR. ATLAS:  It's subjective.

  3               MR. HART:  Let the record reflect that 

  4         Marty Garbus is leaving.

  5               MR. GARBUS:  And giving Mr. Hart a 

  6         note.

  7               MR. HART:  Oh, excellent.

  8               MR. GARBUS:  Which I insist on an 

  9         answer.

 10               MR. HART:  "Were you going to shave 

 11         for Monday?"  No. 

 12               THE WITNESS:  Can you read back the 

 13         question, please?

 14               (Record read.)

 15         A.    I think associated with any technology 

 16    is also a cost issue, and we can do marvelous 

 17    things with technology but at a certain cost.

 18         Q.    Right. 

 19         A.    And I'm not an expert in the economics 

 20    and the technology combined side of this, but 

 21    people who decide what they think the consumer will 

 22    pay for and will desire and will be happy with.

 23         Q.    OK.  That's a very politic answer, 

 24    doctor.  Thank you for that. 

 25               I guess my next question is is the 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    equipment in your lab under which you and your 

  3    staff evaluate the quality of the video display 

  4    representative of what's in the average home or is 

  5    it of better quality?

  6         A.    I would hope it's of better quality.

  7         Q.    Why is that?

  8         A.    I think we have fairly high resolution 

  9    monitors, computer monitors in my lab.  I believe 

 10    that to be of higher quality than the average 

 11    television. 

 12         Q.    Because of the difference between 

 13    progressive and interlaced scanning rate or --

 14         A.    Just the number of pixels available on 

 15    the screen. 

 16         Q.    Now, are you going to be testifying at 

 17    trial in this case?

 18         A.    Yes.

 19         Q.    And when did you first find out that you 

 20    would be doing so?

 21         A.    Approximately two to three weeks ago. 

 22         Q.    Can you tell me what opinions, if any, 

 23    you are prepared to render in connection with the 

 24    case. 

 25               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.  I think he's 

  1                     Ramadge

  2         set forth his opinions today during this 

  3         deposition and also in his declaration.

  4         Q.    Apart from what you've testified to so 

  5    far, are there any other opinions that you 

  6    contemplate rendering in connection with this case?

  7         A.    As I've said, my experiments are 

  8    ongoing.  Anything I discover subsequent to this 

  9    deposition would -- I -- would be discussed.

 10         Q.    Are there any other areas that you plan 

 11    to do experiments in, that we haven't discussed 

 12    here today?

 13         A.    Not at the current time, but in the 

 14    process of doing experiments one comes to things 

 15    one didn't think of, but --

 16               MR. ATLAS:  Can we take a break for a 

 17         second?

 18               (Witness and counsel left the room for 

 19         a discussion off the record.)

 20               MR. HART:  Are we ready to go back on? 

 21               MR. ATLAS:  Sure. 

 22         Q.    What did you just discuss with 

 23    Mr. Hernstadt?

 24               MR. ATLAS:  He didn't discuss anything 

 25         with Mr. Hernstadt.

  1                     Ramadge

  2         Q.    (Continuing) I'm sorry, Mr. Atlas.

  3         A.    Mr. Atlas advised me to say to you that 

  4    I would be willing to discuss any of my opinions on 

  5    these matters to make sure it had gone onto the 

  6    record.

  7               MR. ATLAS:  I just wanted to make 

  8         sure, since I did not have the entire 

  9         transcript in front of me, that the 

 10         professor covered both the areas of his 

 11         testimony and the opinions he was going to 

 12         cover.  I wanted to make sure that he had 

 13         covered that as fully as he believed was 

 14         appropriate and, if not, to respond to that 

 15         question which I may have cut him off on 

 16         before .

 17         Q.    Professor, I'm a lawyer and not an 

 18    electrical engineer or video specialist, and I take 

 19    it you're not a lawyer. 

 20         A.    Correct.

 21         Q.    But do you understand what was just 

 22    said?  And if you do, could you please help me? 

 23         A.    I think I understand, and I think I have 

 24    expressed my opinions on the areas on which I'll be 

 25    testifying, but we could go over them if you felt 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    necessary. 

  3         Q.    You're saying this deposition has 

  4    covered as much as you know and as much as you're 

  5    prepared to testify to as we sit here today; is 

  6    that right? 

  7               Although there may be other areas that 

  8    your continuing researches reveal -- let me finish 

  9    the question -- but as you sit here today you have 

 10    no additional planned experiments, that you know of 

 11    in your mind, again, other than what you've already 

 12    described under oath here today. 

 13               Is that a fair statement to sum it up?

 14         A.    Within the context of this case, yes.

 15         Q.    Within the context of this case, yes.

 16               Are you getting paid? 

 17         A.    By Princeton University?  For my work at 

 18    Princeton University?

 19         Q.    Are you getting paid in connection with 

 20    your testimony in the case?

 21         A.    No.

 22         Q.    Or any of your time?

 23         A.    No.

 24         Q.    No? 

 25               Again going back to your professional 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    views about the quality of video images, do you 

  3    regard VHS tape as presenting a fairly acceptable 

  4    image qualitywise?

  5               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

  6               But go ahead and answer.

  7         A.    These things are subjective.

  8         Q.    Right.

  9         A.    And standards are designed to meet 

 10    certain criteria, certain available bandwidth 

 11    criteria, for example, and there are trade-offs 

 12    involved in doing that. 

 13         Q.    So you don't -- you have no view as to 

 14    the acceptableness of the quality of VHS.

 15               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.  I'm not quite 

 16         sure what acceptable is, but --

 17         A.    I think it's subjective.  I watched and 

 18    I continue to watch VHS movie tapes.

 19         Q.    At home?

 20         A.    At home.

 21         Q.    And as a consumer?

 22         A.    I've watched them and I am watching them 

 23    as an ongoing consumer. 

 24               MR. ATLAS:  Are you asking him whether 

 25         he likes VHS or DVD better?

  1                     Ramadge

  2               MR. HART:  Hm, hm, hm.

  3         Q.    What did you review in connection with 

  4    your testimony here today in terms of things that 

  5    were filed in connection with this case?

  6               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

  7               Go ahead. 

  8         A.    I reviewed Exhibit 1.

  9         Q.    Your declaration, right?

 10         A.    Yes.

 11         Q.    Anything else?

 12         A.    I had looked at my curriculum vitae. 

 13               THE WITNESS:  Is that included here? 

 14               MR. ATLAS:  I think it is.

 15               THE WITNESS:  Oh, yes. 

 16         Q.    Actually, that's a good question. 

 17               Is your curriculum vitae attached?

 18         A.    Only partly I believe.

 19         Q.    Is there a reason why only part of it's 

 20    attached?

 21         A.    I believe what's attached is actually my 

 22    Princeton University electrical engineering web 

 23    pages.

 24               MR. ATLAS:  Correct.  I'm sorry.

 25         Q.    Your web page doesn't have DeCSS on it, 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    does it?

  3         A.    Not to my knowledge. 

  4         Q.    I'm sorry, and apart from your 

  5    declaration and your curriculum vitae, are there 

  6    any other things that you reviewed, that were filed 

  7    in this case, in connection with your testimony 

  8    here today?

  9         A.    I read the deposition of Andrew Appel. 

 10         Q.    Anything else?

 11         A.    I believe I signed a nondisclosure 

 12    agreement.

 13               Is that the correct term? 

 14         Q.    Might be. 

 15               Go ahead.  Anything else?

 16         A.    Let's see.

 17               Just regular documents associated with 

 18    my research.

 19         Q.    OK, nothing more case specific. 

 20         A.    No, not that I can recall.

 21         Q.    Have you reviewed the declaration of 

 22    Dr. Michael Shamos?

 23         A.    I'm sorry.  Yes. 

 24         Q.    Have you reviewed any of the 

 25    declarations of Robert Schumann?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    No.

  3         Q.    With respect to Dr. Shamos' declaration, 

  4    when did you first review that?

  5         A.    Again, in the framework of two to three 

  6    weeks ago.

  7         Q.    Did you form any conclusions or opinions 

  8    about that declaration after reviewing it?

  9         A.    In preparation for the experiments that 

 10    are ongoing, that I'm doing, I noticed that there 

 11    was some pieces of information that I would have 

 12    liked to have seen included in that declaration, in 

 13    order to replicate those experiments, which were 

 14    missing from the declaration.

 15         Q.    Are you trying to replicate the 

 16    experiments that were described in his deposition?

 17         A.    That would be one interesting experiment 

 18    to perform.

 19         Q.    Are you planning on doing that?

 20         A.    Given that there was some lack of 

 21    information available in that declaration, I will 

 22    have to approximate that experiment.

 23         Q.    To the best of your recollection as you 

 24    sit here today what is the information that you 

 25    believe is missing?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    I believe there were several things 

  3    missing.  One of them might have the frame size in 

  4    pixels and the other one might have been the frame 

  5    rate in frames per second.  There may have been 

  6    others, but those two things come to mind.

  7         Q.    Is frame rate in any way noted by the 

  8    codecs?

  9         A.    Some codecs allow you to choose the 

 10    frame rate.

 11         Q.    Anything else that was, in your view, 

 12    missing from Mr. Shamos' deposition?  

 13               By the way, it wasn't the deposition, it 

 14    was the declaration I was referring to.  I 

 15    apologize for that. 

 16               Anything else that was missing, in your 

 17    view?

 18               MR. ATLAS:  Do you have a copy of it? 

 19               Maybe you could take a look at it.

 20         Q.    (Continuing) Just sitting here today, as 

 21    you can recall it. 

 22         A.    I recall thinking it would be useful to 

 23    have known some other pieces of information, but 

 24    right off the top of my head, without having it 

 25    here in front of me, I don't recall what those 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    were.

  3         Q.    And sitting here thinking about the 

  4    experiments you'd like to duplicate that Dr. Shamos 

  5    did, can you say what, in your mind, is missing 

  6    that you prefer to know as a bit of information --

  7               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.

  8         Q.    -- for you to duplicate those 

  9    experiments?

 10         A.    I think I gave you the two things that I 

 11    can recall.

 12         Q.    Is there anything else that you reviewed 

 13    in preparation for your testimony here today?

 14         A.    I believe that's all. 

 15         Q.    Now, is there a difference, in your 

 16    estimation, between copying video content to RAM as 

 17    opposed to the hard drive, and if so, what's the 

 18    difference?

 19               MR. ATLAS:  Objection to form.

 20         A.    Copying it from where?

 21         Q.    Well, let's use DeCSS, apply it to a 

 22    DVD, right?  And I believe you've already testified 

 23    that that causes a copy to go to the hard drive 

 24    file.

 25               Is that your understanding?

  1                     Ramadge

  2         A.    That's correct.

  3         Q.    And the hard drive is something 

  4    different than RAM copy in computer terminology, 

  5    correct?

  6         A.    It has different characteristics.

  7         Q.    And what's the difference in the --

  8         A.    They're much faster to copy it to RAM, 

  9    assuming you have an adequate supply of RAM. 

 10               MR. ATLAS:  Just could we go off the 

 11         record for a second?

 12               (Discussion off the record.)

 13         Q.    Now, once the decrypted movie content is 

 14    copied to the hard drive, what uses can be made of 

 15    that unencrypted copy from the hard drive?

 16               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.

 17               Can you sit here and say all the uses 

 18         that can be made? 

 19         A.    It's a decrypted copy of the vob file -- 

 20    well, assuming that you had a player which would 

 21    play that decrypted copy, you could play it.  If 

 22    you have a transcoder, you could transcode it to a 

 23    different format or a different compression.

 24         Q.    The hard drive's dumb, though, isn't it? 

 25               It doesn't --

  1                     Ramadge

  2               MR. ATLAS:  Objection.

  3         Q.    -- discriminate from what uses can be 

  4    made on it; isn't that correct?

  5               It's just storing content, right? 

  6         A.    Well, I think the situation can be a 

  7    little bit more complex.  Because hard drives are 

  8    quite smart.  They actually have built-in 

  9    electronics.  They can have password protection.  

 10    They can have all sorts of things built into them.

 11         Q.    But absent a password protection as to 

 12    who has access to the hard drive, assuming there's 

 13    no limitation on who accesses the hard drive, 

 14    virtually anything can be done with the content 

 15    once it's on the hard drive.

 16               MR. ATLAS:  Objection. 

 17               That's true.

 18         A.    The situation is quite complex, because 

 19    you talk to the hard drive through the operating 

 20    system, and so depending upon how the operating 

 21    system has been set up, that could control various 

 22    activities that can happen on the hard drive.

 23         Q.    What kind of operating system are you 

 24    using in your lab?

 25         A.    We're using several different types of 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    computers with various operating systems.  We have 

  3    SGI machines running an SGI version of UNIX.  We 

  4    have Sun web stations running a Sun version of 

  5    UNIX.  We have Intel based machines running 

  6    Windows NT.  I have a laptop running Windows 98.  

  7    And we have PCs running Linux. 

  8         Q.    And the computer through which you 

  9    downloaded DeCSS and decrypted "Contact," what 

 10    computer is that running on?

 11         A.    That was -- I did it on two separate 

 12    computers.  I have two computers in my office.  One 

 13    runs Windows NT the other runs Windows 98.

 14         Q.    What kind of an Internet connection do 

 15    you have from your home?

 16         A.    From my home? 

 17         Q.    Yes. 

 18         A.    Currently a 56 kilobyte dial-up 

 19    connection. 

 20         Q.    And what about at the university?

 21         A.    The university, I have a connection to 

 22    the university's back bone through my department 

 23    connection, and hence to the university has a 

 24    connection to the Internet.

 25         Q.    Right.  So ten megabytes a second, a 

  1                     Ramadge

  2    hundred? 

  3         A.    Which part?

  4         Q.    Your connection from your office, let's 

  5    say, at the university.

  6               MR. ATLAS:  I think he's saying there 

  7         are various parts --

  8         Q.    OK, let me just rephrase it.  I 

  9    apologize. 

 10               The immediate connection that your 

 11    computer has to the network that it's hooked up to, 

 12    what's the bandwidth of that?

 13         A.    I believe that's a category five cable.

 14         Q.    Which is what in terms of --

 15         A.    That's rated at 100 megabytes per 

 16    second.

 17               MR. HART:  I don't have anything else 

 18         for you, doctor.  Thank you for your time 

 19         and your candor.  And I personally find this 

 20         fascinating.

 21               THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 22               MR. ATLAS:  Can we just take one 

 23         second?

 24               MR. HART:  Do you want five seconds? 

 25               Do you want me to go out of the room?

  1                     Ramadge

  2               MR. ATLAS:  You can go off the record.

  3               (Discussion off the record.)

  4               MR. ATLAS:  I don't have any 

  5         questions. 

  6               (Time noted:   1:16 p.m.)

  7                          ____________________

  8                            PETER RAMADGE


 10    Subscribed and sworn to before me

 11    this ___ day of __________, 2000.


 13    _________________________________














  2                  C E R T I F I C A T E

  3    STATE OF NEW YORK    )

  4                         : ss.  



  7               I, SHAUNA STOLTZ-LAURIE, a Notary Public 

  8         within and for the State of New York, do 

  9         hereby certify:

 10               That PETER RAMADGE, the witness whose 

 11         deposition is hereinbefore set forth, was 

 12         duly sworn by me and that such deposition is 

 13         a true record of the testimony given by the 

 14         witness.

 15               I further certify that I am not 

 16         related to any of the parties to this action 

 17         by blood or marriage, and that I am in no 

 18         way interested in the outcome of this 

 19         matter.

 20               IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 

 21         set my hand this 14th day of July, 2000.


 23                                _____________________

 24                                SHAUNA STOLTZ-LAURIE



  2    ------------------- I N D E X -------------------

  3    WITNESS             EXAMINATION BY           PAGE

  4    PETER RAMADGE         MR. HART                 5


  6    -------------------- EXHIBITS ------------------- 

  7    [RAMADGE]                                   FOR ID.

  8    [Ramadge] Exhibit 1, Mr. Ramadge declaration.  5