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Re: Aw: Re: [projectvrm] Greg Satell on Let¹s Face It, We Don¹t Really Care About Privacy


Chronological Thread 
  • From: Guy Higgins < >
  • To: Graham Reginald Hill < >, < >
  • Cc: < >
  • Subject: Re: Aw: Re: [projectvrm] Greg Satell on Let¹s Face It, We Don¹t Really Care About Privacy
  • Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 05:30:24 -0700

+1.  The German Lander sounds like a soul mate for Dr Gruber.

From: Graham Reginald Hill < "> >
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 at 3:55
To: < "> >
Cc: < "> >
Subject: Aw: Re: [projectvrm] Greg Satell on Let’s Face It, We Don’t Really Care About Privacy

Hi Steve
 
I am in full agreement in principle.
 
But in practice the Googles, Faceboooks and Apples of this world have so much information about us that privacy is in effect dead. At least in any meaningful sense of the word. There is no way to put the big data genie back into the bottle. I don't see this as an existential problem, although I suspect that I might change my mind of the data was used to discriminate against me in a way that I thought was unreasonable and unfair. I have absolutely no problem with being targeted for contextual marketing, even though most of it is spam. At worst, I just ignore it. I would also have no problem with paying more for auto insurance if in-car telematics showed that I drove like my namesake. As it happens, I drive a Toyota Land Cruiser so high-speed pursuits are out of the question. But I would have a problem if details of my hypothetical 23andMe genetic profile were used to deny my children life insurance cover. 
 
I do not trust 'privacy advocates' to work in the best interests of consumers. Like many single issue advocates their models of what is in consumers best interests are often at odds with consumers own models. I have seen the same thing with data protection advocates in the German Länder. One of them even had the temerity to justify his hard-line approach to data protection on the grounds that consumers could not be trusted to act in their own best interests. It was LeGrand's 'knights and knaves, queens and pawns' thesis write large. Fortunately his political mastrs quickly put him in his place; another job! 
 
As the various studies show, consumers are willing to share some details about them in exchange for value. But they are not willing to share other things, no matter how much value they can get for them. Although everything has its price, sometimes the price is too high to pay. As you rightly say, privacy is progressive.
 
Best regards from Bristil, Graham
 
 
 
Gesendet: Montag, 15. Dezember 2014 um 19:46 Uhr
Von:  ">
An:  ">
Betreff: Re: [projectvrm] Greg Satell on Let’s Face It, We Don’t Really Care About Privacy

 

Graham, 

 

I agree that 

- privacy is relative

- privacy has a price

- people trade personal information for things of value. 

 

But I reject the conclusion that because people trade their information and often make poor choices doing so, privacy is dead.  If privacy is relative then we should never impute a state of "zero privacy". People who give up personal information are rarely fully aware of the consequences, so we cannot conclude that they have foresaken privacy or have no expectations of privacy. 

 

Progressive privacy formulations totally recognise the reality of the information trade.  Privacy can actually be protected if the personal information for service bargain is transparent and fair.  Many privacy advocates look at this through a consumer protection lens, and call simply for better behaviour by businesses.  It is clear that the Facebooks of the world are covert hoarders of personal information.  They obfuscate and bias the personal data bargain.  They rip off consumers' information. 

 

More here: http://lockstep.com.au/blog/2011/12/13/trade-pii-not-privacy

 

Cheers, 

 

Steve.

 

Stephen Wilson
Lockstep Group
http://lockstep.com.au

 

Lockstep Consulting provides independent specialist advice and analysis
on digital identity and privacy. Lockstep Technologies develops unique
new smart ID solutions that enhance privacy and prevent identity theft.

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Graham Hill" < "> >
Sent: Tuesday, 16 December, 2014 5:06am
To: "T.Rob" < "> >
Cc: "ProjectVRM list" < "> >
Subject: Re: [projectvrm] Greg Satell on Let’s Face It, We Don’t Really Care About Privacy

 

Hi T.Rob
I posted Greg's blog post to drive a little conversation. I am pleased that you have responded, albeit in a rather effervescent way. This wasn't perhaps the type of response that I had in mind. I was rather expecting that you would have read the sources before responding. Having said that, I am pleased for each and every comment. All of us are smarter than any of us!
Privacy as an ethical concept is relative and contextual rather than absolute and fixed. What you or I consider 'private' depends upon our respective circumstances and our personal quid pro quo. Both the Pew Internet Report on 'Public Perceptions of Privacy and Security in the Post-Snowdeen Era' (http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/11/12/public-privacy-perceptions/) and the earlier Boston Consulting Group report on 'Data Privacy by the Numbers' (http://www.slideshare.net/TheBostonConsultingGroup/data-privacy-by-the-numbers) support that view. They show that people are willing to give away quite large amounts of information about  themselves in exchange for something of value. 
When I wrote that 'many people are concerned about their lack of digital privacy they typically expect someone else, i.e. government, to do something about it' I was merely paraphrasing the Pew Internet report that said (on Page 4) '64% believe the government should do more to regulate advertisers, compared with 34% who think the government should not get more involved'. 
I am a little reluctant to discuss privacy as a legal concept as I am not a lawyer. I suspect that you are not a lawyer either. However, Article 8 that you mention appears to be both somewhat relative in its nature and only applicable to public authorities. Even then, it gives them unspecified leeway to override an individual's privacy where necessary to protect the interests of security, public safety and the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of heath and morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.  As Greg's post was about privacy in a business marketing setting and my post was triggered by his, I am not entirely sure if Article 8 applies in these circumstances. Other legislation like Data Protection and Privacy and Electronic Communication obviously do apply. But that is a different topic entirely.
As Greg's blog, the other sources and my final remark all hinted at, everything does have its price. Privacy is no different. It is relative and contextual. It depends on our personal quid pro quo. The laws protecting it appear to be aimed at public authorities and even then gives them plenty of leeway to act differently. Perhaps I should have said, 'it is hardly as though privacy is a human right'.  
Best regards from Bristol, Graham
PS. I was reading an interesting article on click-bait this morning. If only I could remember where I had seen it.
 
> Everything has its price. Privacy is no different. It is not as though it is a human right!
 
Really?  Is this a principle of your consulting practice because if so you might be advising your clients to commit crimes against humanity. 
 
I refer you to Article 12 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights(http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a12 ) which states:
 
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
 
Of course, some clients might scoff at the authority of the UN.  If they happen to be in the UK then perhaps they recognize Article 8 of the Human Rights Act of 1988 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/42/schedule/1/part/I/chapter/7 ) which states:
 
Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
 
No multi-million pound ad campaign will erase the human right to privacy.  This isn't one of those subjective things like "Coke is better than Pepsi" that you can just keep repeating until it becomes true for your target demographic.  You'll actually need to convince a bunch of people to repeal some laws first.
 
> although many people are concerned about their lack of digital privacy they typically expect someone else, i.e. government, to do something about it.
 
Ya think?  Perhaps that's because the government has pledged to do exactly that when they passed the law.  See above for references.  Some would say the government are actually *obliged* to uphold the aforementioned laws as if doing so were, you know, mandatory and stuff.
 
Of course, I may be dead wrong about all this.  It has happened before.  (I know, right?)  In that case can you tell us who, besides you, is above these laws and why?  Also, it would be handy to have a spreadsheet because us citizensserfs tend to assume nobody is above the laws and, at least in my case, find it difficult to identify those who are.  Take you for instance.  There is no crown in your profile photo or other identifying characteristic to indicate your elevated extrajudicial status.  It is only when you put words to (virtual) paper that anyone can tell that the laws don't apply to you.
 
Barring that possibility, we now return you to your regularly scheduled reality where, yes, there is an actual universal human right of privacy.
 
Kind regards,
-- T.Rob
 
T.Robert Wyatt, Managing partner
IoPT Consulting, LLC
+1 704-443-TROB (8762) Voice/Text
+44 (0) 8714 089 546  Voice
 
From: Graham Hill [mailto:graham.hill@web.de] 
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 10:39 AM
To: Doc Searls
Cc: ProjectVRM list
Subject: [projectvrm] Greg Satell on Let’s Face It, We Don’t Really Care About Privacy ??????????????
 
Hi Doc
 
Harvard Business Review blogger Greg Satell has just published an interesting post on 'Let’s Face It, We Don’t Really Care About Privacy' on his Digital Tonto blog (http://www.digitaltonto.com/2014/lets-face-it-we-dont-really-care-about-privacy/?utm_source=Digital%20Tonto%20Newsletter&utm_campaign=848a327f51-The_Social_Tax12_13_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_3e316dce02-848a327f51-389199989&ct=t%28The_Social_Tax12_13_2014%29). Greg references a new Pew Internet Report on 'Public Perceptions of Privacy and Security in the Post-Snowdeen Era' (http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/11/12/public-privacy-perceptions/) that highlights that although many people are concerned about their lack of digital privacy they typically expect someone else, i.e. government, to do something about it. And as an earlier Boston Consulting Group report on 'Data Privacy by the Numbers' (http://www.slideshare.net/TheBostonConsultingGroup/data-privacy-by-the-numbers) shows, these same people are often willing to give away increasingly intimate information about themselves in exchange for something of value. 
 
As the old saying hoses… Everything has its price. Privacy is no different. It is not as though it is a human right!
 
Thoughts?
 
Best regards from Bristol, Graham
 



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