Re: [projectvrm] Re: The VRM Social Network : Tim Cook says Facebook turns users into products

[Katherine Warman Kern < >]

. . . it's going to be a byproduct of, and not the main driver of, adoption of VRM. It will be other apps and services that only VRM can deliver that will bring it into widespread use.

Drummond, you are scratching the surface of the link I've missed here.

What are the customer benefits that only VRM can deliver?  

In my experience, the most effective way to compete against a market leader (e.g., facebook) is to focus on the positive instead of the problem.

K-

Katherine Warman Kern

@comradity

On Dec 8, 2014, at 1:30 AM, =Drummond Reed < "> > wrote:

StJohn and Phillip,

The full notes from both of the VRM social network sessions at IIW #19 were posted here. 

RE Phillip's question—about what it would take to provide Facebook-like social network services using VRM principles—I would say that the primary challenge is not technical but rather one of adoption and business model, i.e.:

• The features offered by a VRM social network would not just need to match Facebook but considerably exceed it to start enough of a network effect to compete with Facebook & the other centralised social networks.
• To follow VRM principles, this new alternative(s) would need a new business model where the customers is NOT the product.

The best evidence of the scope of these two challenges is the struggle the Diaspora founders faced. I highly recommend the book from NYT writer Jim Dwyer that started this whole thread: More Awesome Than Money: Four Boys and their Heroic Quest to Save your Privacy from Facebook.

After finishing the book last week, it suggested to me that as sexy as a VRM social network sounds, it's going to be a byproduct of, and not the main driver of, adoption of VRM. It will be other apps and services that only VRM can deliver that will bring it into widespread use.

=Drummond 

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 8:26 PM, Philip Browning < " target="_blank"> > wrote:

StJohn,

 

In an earlier reply I think Doc posted a pic of the whiteboard from the second session (that’s been the only feedback to our original discussion I think.  It’s on Doc’s flicker stream somewhere?)

 

I also wouldn’t mind a response (or some pitches) relating to my original questions either: 

 

“The threshold question for me - if Facebook “connects” me

to my Dunbar # of connections (+ some) how can I do this using VRM principles but receive the same utility/benefit I currently receive or perceive I do via Facebook – and what’s involved in me moving to this? What other things can you throw into the mix that might help me to say yes to whatever you propose?  Philip.”

 

Interesting Mashable article re Tim Cook and Zuckerburg.

Zuck bashes Tim Cook for saying Facebook turns users into products

 

http://mashable.com/2014/12/05/zuckerberg-versus-cook/

 

I wonder when we might see articles in the business section of the press about the vulnerability of Facebook’s business model? Then we will know something is up. Philip.

 

 

From: StJohn Deakins [mailto: " target="_blank"> ]
Sent: Saturday, 6 December 2014 2:39 AM
To: '=Drummond Reed'
Cc: 'Doc Searls'; 'Nathan Schor'; 'ProjectVRM list'
Subject: RE: [projectvrm] NY Times on Diaspora and Ello

 

Hi Drummond,

I just chanced across this mail again.  We’re any notes posted out of interest?

Cheers

StJ

 

<image001.png>
citizenme

StJohn Deakins

email: " target="_blank">   mobile: +44 7500 802020

skype: stjohndeakins  twitter: @stjohndeakins / @ctznme

 

From: =Drummond Reed [ " target="_blank">mailto: ]
Sent: 30 October 2014 05:56
To: StJohn Deakins
Cc: Doc Searls; Nathan Schor; ProjectVRM list
Subject: Re: [projectvrm] NY Times on Diaspora and Ello

 

StJohn et al,

 

Just a quick note that we did hold a session on "The VRM Social Network" at IIW today with about 35 people and it was a really good discussion—in fact so full that we were not able to finish it and decided to hold Part 2 tomorrow.

 

Besides the session notes (which will be posted online), I'll try to post my own notes after Part 2 (though it could be Friday or this weekend before I get them up).

 

=Drummond 

 

On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 9:20 AM, StJohn Deakins < " target="_blank"> > wrote:

A couple of additional points which may (or may not) help…

 

This may be a little simplistic, but it might help to think of an online “social venue” like an offline bar of coffee shop – operating as a service provider to an individual and their social networks.  People meet in a virtual location that suits their needs – but are free to move, en-masse, to other locations if the offering deteriorates or if there’s a new, better place across the street. (e.g. starbucks don’t try to retain customers by locking the doors). This speaks to social graph portability that Doc covered.  

 

There are complicating factors:

-          The offline “address book” is now stored as ID info on social/messaging networks (the venues).  The venue becomes the address book.

-          To counter this millennials (who instinctively “get” the issue) start “sharding” contacts across multiple networks and through multiple profiles within networks (e.g. 60% of US teens have 2 FB profiles).  This is now a habit which any solution will need to incorporate.

 

Wish I could be there to participate – sounds like fun :)

 

Look forward to hearing an update.

 

StJ

 

<image001.png>
citizenme

StJohn Deakins

email: " target="_blank">   mobile: +44 7500 802020

skype: stjohndeakins  twitter: @stjohndeakins / @ctznme

 

From: =Drummond Reed [mailto: " target="_blank"> ]
Sent: 29 October 2014 15:20
To: Doc Searls
Cc: Nathan Schor; ProjectVRM list
Subject: Re: [projectvrm] NY Times on Diaspora and Ello

 

Doc,

 

Brilliant! I could not agree more. I suggest we start "The VRM Social Network" session today with your blog post.

 

Cya at IIW in 30 mins. Then we'll post the results of that session back to the list later today.

 

=Drummond 

 

On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Doc Searls < " target="_blank"> > wrote:

I started writing a response here, to this and to StJohn's and Philip's posts as well, but decided the better option would be to blog it. So here goes:

 

<http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/vrm/2014/10/29/what-would-a-vrm-social-network-be/>

 

The text:

What would a VRM social network be?

October 29, 2014 / Doc Searls / 0 Comments / Edit

The Big Bang of Social Networking is a piece by Jim Dwyer in The New York Times that will likely be a subject of a session today or tomorrow at IIW. So here are a few thoughts of my toward that discussion…

1. All of us had social networks before Facebook, Diaspora and Ello existed. We still do. They’re in our heads, hearts, contact lists and address books.
2. Facebook, Diaspora and Ello are not social networks. They are silo’d commercial services. They do serve many social purposes, of course, and a few very well, or they wouldn’t be so popular.
3. If we want real social networks online, we need to start with our own genuine personal ones.
4. To be VRM, they need to support independence and engagement. They should also be substitutable in the same way that, say, browsers and email apps and services are substitutable.

It is essential to start outside the box of thinking that says everything needs to be a service. Inside that box we risk thinking only of other calf-cow solutions to calf-cow problems.

Facebook, Diaspora and Ello are all cows. The latter two simply try to be better ones. Even if they don’t advertise at us, we’re still calves in their fenced farms.

Unless, of course, we can take our social graphs away with us, to use on our own, or with some substitutable service.

VRM social network solutions to the problems of calf-cow designs need to be first person technologies. At that link, I explain,

Only a person can use the pronouns  “I,” “me,” “my” and “mine.” Likewise, only a person can use tools such as screwdrivers, eyeglasses and pencils. Those things are all first person technologies. They were invented for individual persons to use.

I suggest we start with address books and calendars. Those could not be more personal, yet more social. And, far as I know, nobody has yet done them in a way that’s useful for scaffolding the successor to Facebook on top of them. But that shouldn’t stop us.

Doc

 

On Oct 28, 2014, at 11:21 PM, =Drummond Reed < " target="_blank"> > wrote:

 

Great catch, Nathan. So good, in fact, I'm going to propose a session on this topic at IIW tomorrow. I'm going to call it "The VRM social network".

 

Cya there.

 

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Nathan Schor < " target="_blank"> > wrote:

Interesting history of how Diaspora started and matured, including astoundingly, a suicide by one its one the four founders, Illya Zhitomirskiy, who was also math prodigy.  

And ending with this encouraging summary:

‘No one can predict if Diaspora, or something like it, will catch on. But we know for sure that these are days when the improbable can become the inevitable.’

The Big Bang of Social Networking http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/sunday-review/the-big-bang-of-social-networking.html

By Jim Dwyer is a New York columnist for The Times and the author of “More Awesome Than Money: Four Boys and Their Heroic Quest to Save Your Privacy From Facebook,” from which this essay is adapted.

 

Nathan Schor 305.632.1368 " target="_blank">

 

 

 

 

 

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