Sean- I am going to challenge you on this point. Creating a product that is clearly directed at addressing end customers' rights to data, marketing said product as a solution to customers' data rights issues but then legally taking the opposite position is just hypocritical. Moreover this point of view is not some personally subjective litmus test. Legal agreements are a form of code that are objective and create enforceable outcomes. As I pointed out with respect to Arbitration clauses and the CA courts. In that case, the defendant (a non-company person) was facing a $12,000 cost to comply with the arbitration clause. I have no idea what he had to pay just to get this in front of the CA courts to get the arbitration clause struck down. What I do know is for any individual the choice of either paying 12k or hiring a lawyer and fighting a company in court is non trivial financial and personal hardship. While I agree that VRM is a 'big tent' it still represents Vender Rights Management. Customers of companies who espouse these values expect something better than the status quo ( which presently is a lot of marketing hype and zero contractual accountability for delivering on even the most basic promise). So, I think that our community needs to hold itself to a higher standard. At a minimum,asking companies to remove contract clauses that have been struck down by courts as unconscionable is more than appropriate.
My sense is that if this very smart community chooses to focus on the TOS issue, some very innovative solutions will emerge. It will not be the product of just lawyers, just programmers, just academics, just business people, rather it will be the product of all. That means moving out of one's comfort zone and engaging in interdisciplinary collaboration.
Best, Renee
Renee Lloyd Sent from my iPhone On Jul 24, 2014, at 11:22 AM, Sean Bohan <
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> wrote: "Has the ProjectVRM Forum lost its moral compass? I hope not. "
No, it hasn't, and you are not it.
Your point about TOS and Privacy policies is well-taken and something a lot of us look at frequently. But there is a problem with your comment - that there needs to be some kind of fundamentalist litmus test for participation in this community and we need to police it by some standard of yours.
VRM is a "big tent" with participants from across the spectrum of business and life. There are no bosses and there are, like 2 mods. We are here because we think there is something to this idea Doc has been working on for years, and as a community we need lots of voices (including yours) and more importantly, work. Since 2007 we have discussed the idea that VRM is a framework and set of principles, not a black-white determination. There will be "shades of VRM", and as a community we need to recognize that, accept it and be focused on helping participants (including very big organizations) to get better.
This list existed long before you got here, Graham. As a community we have called each other out numerous times, and will continue to do so. When we call out data brokers or politicians it's because those are learning moments for everyone, and they are usually TERRIBLE. Additionally, most of us have jobs and we are not all DataCoup users - we all don't fine-tooth-comb every TOS from every VRMish startup on the web. If you have that kind of time, good on ya.
There is no "VRM Good Housekeeping Seal" and there might never be.
Matt has a startup. He is actually doing something. DataCoup might not be 100% VRM, and may have a crappy TOS, and that's ok. Everyone, including you Graham, has room for improvement. Let us work with him. Matt is here, he is engaging. We can learn from him and hopefully help him.
Hey DataCoup: - You might want to talk to legal about the arbitration clause and see if there is a better way - it limits your risk but screws the user
- You might want to look at putting together a TL:DR sidebar on your Privacy page and spelling out, (in bullets, written at a 8th grade reading level) what the policy actually says
- You might want to look at your termination policy in the TOS and properly spell out what happens to the User's data on DataCoup if and when they terminate the relationship (see Doc's "I want a NUKE button for my data on any given service" comment from a couple years ago) and what regulatory requirements might prevent the ability to have a NUKE button (IRS reporting and retention policies, etc.).
- Sean
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