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Re: [projectvrm] Internet companies that put the customer first?Š Is that Enough?


Chronological Thread 
  • From: Katherine Kern < >
  • To: Doc Searls < >, Graham Hill < >
  • Cc: Mary Hodder < >, ProjectVRM list < >, Johannes Ernst < >
  • Subject: Re: [projectvrm] Internet companies that put the customer first?Š Is that Enough?
  • Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 15:37:03 -0500

There is a really important catch 22 in there Doc that I have been struggling with.

But first, Graham is right, customer first is not enough. My observations from inside companies, from McDonald’s to Procter & Gamble, is that many companies' success is the result of a perfect virtuous cycle where everyone benefits. 

But success breeds “bugs" which reverse the virtuous cycle to a vicious cycle. As the market matures, competition for both consumers by price and quality employees at scale squeezes margins to single digits. The natural reaction is to  squeeze consumers (imperceptibly shrinking the package size), vendors (paying late to manage cashflow) and employees (laying off to create the perception of improved productivity to financial partners) to deliver targets to banks or shareholders. (And you can’t run a mega sized company without banks or shareholders.)  Voila there’s nothing left to invest back into the business.  Consumers shop on price.  Vendors are also pressured to squeeze employees to manage their own cash-flow. Employees aren’t proud of their job anymore, it is just a paycheck.  No one in the value chain is even thinking about the customer.  

Most internet start-ups start with scale as the criteria for success.  In my opinion, this is inherently flawed because it is replicating a successful business during the vicious stage in its life cycle. When a company starts out with single digit margins, by paying employees zippo, playing a bait and switch game with customers, and paying vendors late, what happens when the competition comes in and margins are squeezed further? 

Doc, you have introduced one reason scale is considered a success criteria on the internet – universal operating system. If it doesn't work on every device and every operating system, then it can not scale. And it is expensive to do this at the start. To succeed a start up needs to promise to scale quickly to pay for the investment.  Most fail. 

One way around this is to use 3rd party platforms which manage the backend so we can put our resources into the front end.  The problem is that we have no idea what the 3rd party is doing (or not doing in terms adequate security) with our customers' data. One investment a quality company can make is to invest in an independent “policeman” to validate and monitor a 3rd party’s claim. I’ve yet to hear this kind of service exists.    

It seems to me that one VRM related company which could scale rather quickly is an independent 3rd party to “police” third parties to be assured they aren’t hijacking consumer data or vulnerable to others who will.  Isn’t this a fundamental requirement for any VRM company offering to help consumers control their own data?

From: Doc Searls < "> >
Date: Monday, February 17, 2014 at 6:57 AM
To: Graham Hill < "> >
Cc: Mary Hodder < "> >, ProjectVRM list < "> >, Johannes Ernst < "> >
Subject: Re: [projectvrm] Internet companies that put the customer first?… Is that Enough?

Good question.

I remember a conversation I had, back in the '80s, with a guy I know who worked with Jack Tremeil <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Tramiel>, best known for running Commodore and Atari, when those companies mattered. "Jack will screw everybody but his customers," this guy said. I don't know if that was true. It was at least an exaggeration. But it stuck with me, because it represented a mentality I had seen elsewhere and didn't like. (Some would say Walmart does the same thing.)

There is no doubt that Amazon is good to its customers. Everybody I know who works for the company, from Jeff Bezos on down, talks about how the company puts customers first. They do that, I think, mostly with low prices and efficient delivery. (Dell used to do the same thing, when they mattered.) But one does wonder about other costs, such as the ones cited below.

I think one of the challenges we have, as a society, and within our own efforts here, is to give better weight to costs other than price. How do we value a company that puts customers first and low-level employees last? And do we want to encourage that?

I also think the difficulty we have in answering Johannes' original question is that "Internet companies," even "decent-sized" ones, are all relatively new. eBay and Amazon are elders at 19 years old apiece. Apple is ancient at almost 40, but came late to the Internet. (While the Internet took off, Apple built its own lame alternative to AOL, "eWorld": <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EWorld>.)

I would rather look for companies that might welcome VRM tools on the customers' side. I know a number of companies here are working with companies like that — although none are "Internet companies." Instead they are in old-fashioned industrial categories such as utilities, airlines and finance.

The key challenge for those companies will be the same one that faced Apple and Microsoft in 1995: Do you welcome more empowered customers using the same tools to relate to every vendor (which the Internet provided with email and browsing on the Web), or do you provide systems that "deliver a better experience" by trapping customers inside a walled garden?

If vendors control VRM for customers, and the VRM experience requires using exclusive tools to deal with every different vendor, it will only be better CRM.

Doc

On Feb 17, 2014, at 2:35 AM, Graham Hill < "> > wrote:

Hi Mary

Is it enough for a Co to put the customer first? 

Amazon for one has an appalling record for treating its warehouse staff as little better than serfs; to be used, abused and then tossed aside once they are physically or mentally worn out. There are dozens of exposes of Amazon's rotten behaviour on the Financial Times, New York Times, Der Spiegel and other mainstream media. It is one reason why I avoid buying through Amazon wherever there is a viable alternative.

Is it enough to just consider customers if in doing so ignores abuse of other actors in today's increasingly connected value ecosystems? Or is that tantamount to turning a moral blind-eye to abuse?

Best regards from Cologne, Graham

On 16 Feb 2014, at 17:37, Mary Hodder < "> > wrote:

A couple of examples where it sort of happens for individuals:

Ebay
Customers: Sellers and Buyers (individuals)
They have an issue balancing the sellers and buyers interests which are diametrically opposed in many cases, especially if there is a dispute. Many sellers complain that things are too far in the buyers interests but I think this because most of the world that sells things is even more tilted in the direction of sellers (ie, going to a store, purchasing using your credit card where the transaction and data terms are all dictated by Visa/MC yet they are much more in the merchant's favor than the buyer because Visa/MC has merchants as customers ultimately and not individuals, the warranty is defined by the seller, not the buyer, and the quality is take it or leave it. Obviously the buyer can go elsewhere, or just not buy, so the seller is incentivized to meet some level of expectations, but it's a take it or leave it deal for the buyer on everything including price.) Sometimes Ebay changes the rules to favor buyers a bit more, and then sellers slowly figure out how to game the system to get more control, money or benefit from the Ebay system. This happens about every 18 months to 2 years.

Has the "search follow" function which tells you daily if matches for your "intentions" appear.

Amazon
Customers: Sellers and Buyers (individuals)
They have more rules and consistency required for sellers so that they don't mess with buyers, but less flexibility with price for buyers -- but there is some (Amazon will sell at one price but Amazon resellers are almost always significantly lower), and there are few one-offs like at Ebay. Shipping and returns are much more consistent at Amazon than Ebay.

Also.. has a way to get notified if things come up that you are after. Sort of an "intent system."  Also Jeff Bezos said at PC Forum years ago that if we wanted our Data, we could have it, he just didn't know how to do it. It's possible that we could get our data out at some point.

Etsy
Customers: Sellers and Buyers (individuals)
Consistent rules required for sellers so that they don't mess with buyers, but less flexibility with price for buyers -- but there is some. They have cultivated a community of people with certain expectations that people will take care of each other and not screw each other (like the first couple years of Flickr) and it works. But the prices are easily 50-100% higher than Ebay for comparable items, though the handcrafted items are unique and fairly priced. They treat individuals very well.

20x200
Customers: Artists (sellers) and Buyers (individuals)
Curated art in limited edition. Sales and coupons now and then, but consistently priced, quality items. They made $10m their first year I believe. Then went away and have started back up. They treat everyone very well. Its probable that if asked they would share our data, but they would need an easy way to get it to us.



I would say the best of this bunch are Etsy and 20x200.. but from the company perspective, it's hard to totally do the right thing because we still have retrograde payment and infrastructure systems that slant toward companies.. and no one has offered up ways to change that, in order to make it better or do more of the right thing for customers.






On Feb 15, 2014, at 7:36 PM, Johannes Ernst wrote:

On Feb 15, 2014, at 17:30, Ben Werdmuller < "> > wrote:

Define "customers"? If users count, I'd historically put Mozilla in this bracket.

I used customers == users here.

Mozilla: yes. But it's a not-for-profit.


On Feb 15, 2014 5:25 PM, "Johannes Ernst" < "> > wrote:
(actually, not in their rhetoric)

I'm looking for examples of decent-size (consumer) internet companies that clearly put "doing the right thing" for their customers first. Companies whose customers would agree with that.

Not advertisers first, not business partners first, not company/shareholders first, not world domination first etc.

I think there are some examples in the to-business market, but what about in the to-consumer market?

Thanks,



Johannes.









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