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Re: [projectvrm] One-click micro payments, membership monopoly, monied "like" button


Chronological Thread 
  • From: Kevin Cox < >
  • To: Doc Searls < >
  • Cc: Tom Crowl < >, ProjectVRM list < >
  • Subject: Re: [projectvrm] One-click micro payments, membership monopoly, monied "like" button
  • Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:53:33 +1100
Tom,

You have opened up an opportunity for me to talk about one of my favourite subjects - money:)

First we have to recognise that economic theory and in particular the way we create money is fundamentally flawed. (Economics has little to say about money and ignores debt as irrelevant).  Don't believe me?  Read this book to understand the flaws.  http://www.amazon.com/SACK-ECONOMISTS-disband-their-departments-ebook/dp/B00GS01GE0/

The fundamental problem with payments and money is the way we create money by issuing debt.  When we issue debt we create money tokens that have an interest component.  That is, the money tokens increase over time.  This is called the "time value of money".  When we think about it for a second or two it is patently wrong.  We have a system that says the equivalent of. "Here is a dollar note. Put it in your wallet and the number of notes will increase".  This inevitably gives rise to interesting ways for people to create new money tokens because they have value in and of themselves.  Every financial derivative is some form of money token.  It is why the financial industry is so large and is so inefficient.  It is why we have at least two orders of magnitude more money tokens than needed for transactions and investment.  It is why the financial industry absorbs at least 40% of the wealth in society.

Luckily there is a solution and we can reform the money system from the bottom up by each of us creating our own money tokens that have no intrinsic value in and of themselves.  Another book that explains the problem but in a more convoluted way is http://www.amazon.com/The-Lost-Science-Money-Mythology/dp/1930748035

To explain how this new money can evolve I will explain how our company is going to create money tokens that have no intrinsic value but are a representation of services that we produce and that you can buy.

To buy Welcomer services you must prepay for the services.  The reason we wish to do this is to reduce the costs of billing and to reduce the cost of our services.  When you prepay for our services we issue credits which are in fact money tokens.   These credits can only be used for our services but they are money.

Where it becomes more interesting is that we will give you Rewards if you do not use our credits.  These Rewards are in the form of non reward bearing credits - much like frequent flyer points.  We will also preserve the value of your credits by increasing the number of credits and rewards you hold by inflation over the time you have held the credits or rewards.  At the time of conversion from and to regular currencies we will use a basket of currencies to determine the exchange rate.

You cannot use a Reward until all the Credit that created the Reward is redeemed.

We are setting the Reward rate at 20% annual flat rate and we will calculate inflation properly by including asset and government charges in the inflation.  We expect this to be of the order of 8% annually.

People can purchase our Credits even though they have no intention of using our services and we will allow the transfer of credits between people.  We will also allow 50% of the credits required by our customers to be supplied by existing credit holders.  This provides liquidity for our credit holders if they cannot use all the credits for our services.

The tax and accounting regulations used are already defined by rules for the issuing of things like pre-paid telephone cards and by the issuing of frequent flyer points.

We will be encouraging others to use the similar systems and we will supply the software to look after credits as open source software.  

With others we will come to agreements on the swapping of credits and rewards and we might come to an agreement on a common name.

This will create a money system that can be used for micropayments.  For example, we will allow our rewards holders to use rewards for payments or as donations for other things besides our services.

This will set up a bottom up money system where individuals or organisations create money without creating debt.  This money system will grow organically and will have no central authority.  It will use government issued money as the measure of value.

For anyone interested in purchasing our credits we will be making them available in February. Send me your email if you wish to be informed.

Kevin




 


 






On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:10 AM, Doc Searls < " target="_blank"> > wrote:
(Changing the subject to the subject.)

On Dec 18, 2013, at 8:45 AM, Tom Crowl < " target="_blank"> > wrote:

Doc Searls et al,

I'm not qualified to address the ins and outs of VRM.

Everybody is. VRM is still zero-based. All of us make the ins and outs (and choose your prepositions) here.

However I am convinced that the requirements for making a micropayment possible lead to a natural monopoly for its core. And that core may easily be just as important as the micropayment itself.

One would think. I'm not thinky enough to challenge that, though. Perhaps others here can weigh in.

And were this core to be constructed as a for profit enterprise... owned by its members...(one human, one share, non-transferable and expires with death)...

Interesting idea. A co-op of everybody. May I volunteer Customer Commons? <http://customercommons.org> While not quite zero-based, it's not far past the starting line.

It seems to me this gives that inevitably ubiquitous user base tremendous power regarding the use of its data... as well as a means to acquire compensation from those who wish to use it... whether the user ever makes a micropayment or not.

Getting more ideas here. Need to hold back until I bake (or burn) them a bit.

While the system for the micropayment itself is very straightforward and not a 'programming issue... I'm not a programmer and can't say I can fully see how the VRM aspect might operate... it seems to me there's something to be thought about there.

Agreed. I'm not a programmer either. But that doesn't stop me from seeing, if not fully. 

If not... so be it. I wanted to throw it out. David Brin and I are putting together an article on the general capability... and I was curious to see if there might be something to be added from this end.

Characteristics of the Monied "Like" Button

One-Click Micropayment Capability for Volume Solicitations and Multiple Providers

P.S. The "for profit, one user,one share...etc." idea for ownership is my own and separate from the basic mechanisms themselves... and I can't say whether Dr. Brin necessarily agrees or not... so if its terminally stupid... put it on my head.

P.P.S. And if this has no relationship with your ideas I understand and won't push it. But I think its worth a moment or two for consideration.

Much more than a moment. Thanks for vetting it with us. Much to talk about here.

Lots of other good stuff in Tom's blog, all very VRooMy. I invite others here to peruse it.

Doc



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