Re: [projectvrm] Perhaps privacy is the wrong concept?

[Iain Henderson < >]

Looks like you'll get plenty of chance to have that debate in Germany….

http://www.theguardian.com/world/german-elections-blog-2013/2013/sep/16/merkel-germany-nsa-spying-elections


On 22 Sep 2013, at 11:56, Graham Hill 
<
 >
 wrote:

> Hi Kevin
> 
> There are over 5.5 million CCTV cameras in the UK, that is one for every 11 
> people!
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10172298/One-surveillance-camera-for-every-11-people-in-Britain-says-CCTV-survey.html
> 
> Frredom from surveillance is clearly not the norm any more.
> 
> The few studies on the effects of CCTV on citizen behaviour that I have 
> seen (I am not involved in the security industry in any way) suggest small 
> positive affects on citizens perceptions of their well-being, small 
> reductions in non-impulsive crime and that citizens don't noticeably change 
> their behaviour. 
> e.g. https://www.cctvusergroup.com/downloads/file/Martin%20gill.pdf
> The evidence somewhat refutes your behaviour in a feudal/totalitarian 
> society argument.
> 
> Do you think it is consequentially reasonable to insist that you remain 
> free from surveillance when its introduction may protect others less able 
> to protect themselves from harm? 
> Does being a member of society brings a responsibility to consider more 
> than just one's own interests? 
> How should you, and society decide?
> 
> Best regards from Cologne, Graham
> 
> On Sep 22, 2013, at 10:20 AM, Kevin Cox 
> <
 >
>  wrote:
> 
>> Graham,
>> 
>> Surveillance  - Close observation, esp. of a suspected spy or criminal
>> 
>> I for one expect freedom from surveillance to be the norm.  
>> 
>> The reason is that if surveillance is the "norm" then people will simply 
>> stop doing anything that could be construed as different to the party line 
>> of those in control.  We see this in all feudal and totalitarian 
>> societies.  This is reason enough to stop routine close observation 
>> (surveillance).  
>> 
>> Kevin
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Graham Hill 
>> <
 >
>>  wrote:
>> Iain
>> 
>> There are plenty of words expended on the VRMProject list extolling the 
>> virtues of privacy and freedom from surveillance. But nobody has explained 
>> why one should expect privacy or freedom from surveillance to be the norm. 
>> 
>> Upon what basis can one expect one's dealings to be 'private' amongst the 
>> members of the society in which we have chosen to live? Does living in a 
>> society inevitably mean that our privacy should be constrained. And how 
>> much should privacy be constrained?
>> 
>> Upon what basis can one expect one to be 'free from surveillance' by other 
>> members of the society in which we live. Is some surveillance necessary 
>> e.g. to prevent crime, enforce societal norms and prevent free-riding? If 
>> it is, who decides how much and in what forms?
>> 
>> Just a thought.
>> 
>> Best regards from Cologne, Graham
>> 
>> On Sep 21, 2013, at 9:08 PM, Iain Henderson 
>> <
 >
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Great idea Kevin, it's a lot easier to play with words and get around 
>>> accusation of breach of privacy than it is an accusation of surveillance.
>>> 
>>> Iain
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 21 Sep 2013, at 20:28, Kevin Cox 
>>> <
 >
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> From Wikidpedia
>>>> Noun
>>>>    • The state or condition of being free from being observed or 
>>>> disturbed by other people.
>>>>    • The state of being free from public attention.
>>>> 
>>>> As soon as someone reads this email my privacy has been broken.  I hope 
>>>> someone will observe me through the email so I am not worried about my 
>>>> privacy with respect to this email.
>>>> 
>>>> A better word to use may be surveillance.   
>>>> 
>>>> Surveillance
>>>> 
>>>> Close observation, esp. of a suspected spy or criminal
>>>> 
>>>> Perhaps
>>>> 
>>>> Freedom from surveillance
>>>> 
>>>> rather than
>>>> 
>>>> Right to Privacy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Kevin
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> e-mail: 
>>> 
 
>>> blog: www.iainhenderson.info
>>> twitter: @iainh1
>>> 
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>> 
>> --
>> Dr. Graham Hill
>> 
 
>> UK +44 7564 122 633
>> DE +49 170 487 6192
>> http://twitter.com/GrahamHill
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/grahamhil
>> 
>> Partner
>> Optima Partners
>> http://www.optimapartners.co.uk
>> 
>> Senior Associate
>> Nyras Capital
>> http://www.nyras.co.uk
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> --
> Dr. Graham Hill
> 
 
> UK +44 7564 122 633
> DE +49 170 487 6192
> http://twitter.com/GrahamHill
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/grahamhil
> 
> Partner
> Optima Partners
> http://www.optimapartners.co.uk
> 
> Senior Associate
> Nyras Capital
> http://www.nyras.co.uk
> 
> 


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