Re: [projectvrm] Fourth (and other) party definitions

[Dan Miller < >]

Hey Guys:

This is a great thread and I think that "The Party Line"is ripe for discussion at the salon-like get-together that Judi Clark and I are planning to hold at Opus Research HQ on April 29th. Drummond knows all about it but, unfortunately can't be there. I don't know whether you, Doc, are in town, but you're definitely welcome. Chris Carfi, Marry Hodder and Julian Gay are on board... Marc Davis has been invited, but I haven't heard back. 

The new HQ is on the 3rd floor of 350 Brannan. We've got a great physical plant for a get together that encourages both socializing and serious discussion. Those on the VRM list who are interested, let us know and Judi and I will get back to you.

Looking forward to hearing from you,

Dan

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Doc Searls < " target="_blank"> > wrote:

I think in traditional terms both the merchant bank and the credit card company would be thought of as third parties to the relationship and the transaction. This also maps to voice. First party = first person "I", second party=second person "you", third party=third person "they". There is no language equivalent for fourth party. The reason we bring it up is to label an emerging category.

BTW, a number of us on this list (myself included) have been talking directly or indirectly to banks lately, and it's clear that they would like to be seen as at least on the customer's side, and perhaps a fourth party literally. By IIW (and for sure *at* IIW) we'll be talking about the future roles of banks in the VRM-enabled (and personal data control mechanism-enabled) marketplace.

Doc

On Apr 13, 2011, at 3:21 PM, Drummond Reed wrote:

> Doc, the other analogy (besides seller's agents and buyer's agents in real estate) that I have found works well to explain the role of a fourth party is credit card networks. In a credit card network both parties to a credit card transaction have their own banks. You as a credit card holder (first party) have the bank that issued you your card (fourth party); the merchant you are doing the transaction with (second party) has a bank that they have their merchant account with (third party).
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> =Drummond
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> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Doc Searls < " target="_blank"> > wrote:
> Some questions have come up lately about the term "fourth party," which was dealt with at length in this post here:
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> <http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/vrm/2009/04/12/vrm-and-the-four-party-system/>
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> Especially in respect to the other three parties.
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> Like, is the customer always the first party and the vendor the second party?
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> Well, no. So, some clarification.
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> First and second parties are like the first and second person voices in speech. The person speaking is the first person, and uses the first person voice (I, me, mine, myself). The person being addressed is the second person, and is addressed in the second person voice (you, your, yourself).
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> If the first person is a customer, he or she uses the first person voices when talking to a company. Thus to a customer the first party is themselves, and the second party is the company. When companies speak to customers, they are the first party and customers are the second parties.
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> As I said in that piece, neither "first party" nor "second party" are commonly used terms, except in legal settings. Instead in business the most common numbered party is the third one. The term "third party" usually refers to another company allied with the primary one involved in a relationship or a transaction. PayPal, for example, serves as a third party to a transaction. A case for your iPhone is a third party item. Closer to home for VRM is third parties to websites, which assist in personalizing advertising. See the description used in this Wall Street Journal article:
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> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703940904575395073512989404.html
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> To sum it up, third parties mostly assist vendors. That is, they show up as helpers to vendors.
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> So what kind of parties would mostly assist customers? We thought this required a new category, and "fourth party" seemed to make the most sense.
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> When I say "a fourth party is a third party for customers," people usually get what that means. What they want next are examples. Buyers agents in real estate are good examples. Bill Wendell has done a great job carrying that flag. See his Real Estate Cafe blog for more: http://realestatecafe.squarespace.com/ Lending Tree <http://www.lendingtree.com/> has been raised as an example as well.
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> And a number of companies on this list are also positioning themselves as fourth parties.
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> If VRM succeeds, the category will be huge.
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> The problem we'll face, however, is making sure that VRM-positioned fourth parties don't become third parties for vendors in the process of doing whatever it is they do. This should be a good topic for discussion at IIW.
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> Anyway, hope that helps.
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> Doc
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