Drummond,
Actually, I think that framing fundamentally breaks what we're trying to do here.
There are plenty of third parties that aren't aligned with anyone. And they create massive value. I'd argue that without the innovations of unanticipated 3rd parties, the Internet would just be another online service like AOL or CompuServe.
To force everyone who isn't a 1st or 2nd party into alignment with either the first or second party creates an inherently confrontational mindset. If VRM becomes about "us" verses "them", it ceases to be about mutual benefit and we may as well start building gallows, guillotines, and blindfolds.
Buyer's Agent works well to explain 4th parties. But placing 3rd parties squarely in the 2nd party's pocket is a mistake we can and should avoid.On 4/13/2011 12:30 PM, Drummond Reed wrote:Joe, I think the one thing that needs to be clarified to make the fourth party analogy clear with respect to VRM is why the credit card analogy works so well: if you characterize it in terms of the parties to a transaction of personal data to enable VRM, then the roles become very clear, and directly analogous to credit cards:
=Drummond
- The first party is the individual who is sharing the personal data (credit card system = cardholder)
- The second party is the vendor receiving that data (credit card system = merchant)
- The third party is a party that has a contractual duty to assist the vendor in that transaction (credit card system = merchant bank)
- The fourth party is a party that has a contractual duty to assist the individual in that transaction (credit card system = cardholder bank, called issuing bank)
On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Joe Andrieu < " target="_blank"> > wrote:
Doc,
Curiously enough this came up in conversation with Drummond at the Personal Data Deep Dive last week. Unfortunately, I can't agree with you on this one. I blogged about it here:
http://blog.joeandrieu.com/2011/04/13/fourth-parties-are-agents-third-parties-arent-necessarily/
The key distinction:
Fourth Parties answer to the 1st party.
3rd Parties may not answer to anyone.
And, IMO, this is particularly vital to VRM as a platform, because platforms enable 3rd parties. Let's avoid painting our rose colored glasses so that we unfairly dismiss the 3rd parties we'll need to make this work. At the end of the day, the distinction between 3rd and 4th is going to be in the eye of the beholder. For every 4th party trying to "help" individuals, there will be someone who sees them as a leach sucking value however they can.
Perhaps more important, this alignment of 3rd parties with "them" reinforces an "us" verses "them" mentality that isn't going to end well. VRM is about creating mutual benefit, not storming the bastille.
-j
Joe Andrieu " target="_blank"> +1 (805) 705-8651
On 4/13/2011 9:45 AM, Doc Searls wrote:Some questions have come up lately about the term "fourth party," which was dealt with at length in this post here: <http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/vrm/2009/04/12/vrm-and-the-four-party-system/> Especially in respect to the other three parties. Like, is the customer always the first party and the vendor the second party? Well, no. So, some clarification. First and second parties are like the first and second person voices in speech. The person speaking is the first person, and uses the first person voice (I, me, mine, myself). The person being addressed is the second person, and is addressed in the second person voice (you, your, yourself). If the first person is a customer, he or she uses the first person voices when talking to a company. Thus to a customer the first party is themselves, and the second party is the company. When companies speak to customers, they are the first party and customers are the second parties. As I said in that piece, neither "first party" nor "second party" are commonly used terms, except in legal settings. Instead in business the most common numbered party is the third one. The term "third party" usually refers to another company allied with the primary one involved in a relationship or a transaction. PayPal, for example, serves as a third party to a transaction. A case for your iPhone is a third party item. Closer to home for VRM is third parties to websites, which assist in personalizing advertising. See the description used in this Wall Street Journal article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703940904575395073512989404.html To sum it up, third parties mostly assist vendors. That is, they show up as helpers to vendors. So what kind of parties would mostly assist customers? We thought this required a new category, and "fourth party" seemed to make the most sense. When I say "a fourth party is a third party for customers," people usually get what that means. What they want next are examples. Buyers agents in real estate are good examples. Bill Wendell has done a great job carrying that flag. See his Real Estate Cafe blog for more: http://realestatecafe.squarespace.com/ Lending Tree <http://www.lendingtree.com/> has been raised as an example as well. And a number of companies on this list are also positioning themselves as fourth parties. If VRM succeeds, the category will be huge. The problem we'll face, however, is making sure that VRM-positioned fourth parties don't become third parties for vendors in the process of doing whatever it is they do. This should be a good topic for discussion at IIW. Anyway, hope that helps. Doc
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