RE: [projectvrm] MaidSafe claims to deliver world's first 'safe' network

["Crosbie Fitch" < >]

> From: Phil Windley
> I disagree. Property and exclusivity have existed as long as 
> there was one person more powerful than another.

To exclude another (from a space or object), one does not need to be more
powerful, only at least as powerful as the other.

And by and large, as Homo Sapiens, we are all equal, hence in equilibrium,
individual powers become innate/natural rights - and in an egalitarian
society we recognise this equality, this natural law.

Of course, some people quite like the idea of being more powerful than their
fellow man, and will take pains to contrive it (typically co-opting would-be
second in commands, etc.).


> Agreed, a useful distinction.

Natural law is very useful in engineering pandemic systems in which
external/central powers are ineffective, absent and/or incompatible.

It's not just useful for constituting egalitarian societies (on those rare
occasions folk fancy something other than monarchy, communism, fascism,
etc.).



> Turns out they do. The block chain has proven that it's 
> possible to make dataions behave like fermions. That is, it's 
> possible to create data that can only appear to exists (for 
> practical purposes) in one place at any given time. I belief 
> that means that we could also make digital books behave like 
> physical books.
> 
> Turns out we were quite wrong in years past when we said 
> there was no way to prevent copying on the Internet. There is 
> and Satoshi proved it. 
> 
> Whether it's a good model for society to support or not is a 
> different question, of course, but from an engineering 
> perspective, it's completely possible. 

You must be using a different definition of 'Internet' and/or 'engineering'.

The most common operation that occurs in the components that make up
computers is copying (even a microprocessor instruction set is dominated by
copying operations).

The most common operation that occurs in the components that make up The
Internet is copying.

So, if you have something that cannot be copied, I think you'll find you'll
never be able to sell it to anyone on The Internet because there'll be no
way of delivering it (let alone of demonstrating that you have such an item
of radically new imperial clothing).

Anyway, I suspect you're confusing the difficulty of forging a 'digital
currency', with the ease by which we can indeed copy it. For example, I can
copy the number 13 as many times as I wish, but there will always be only
one number 13. We can write a contract to exchange a cow for a silver
dollar, but no matter how many times we copy the contract, we do not create
new agreements, nor new cows, nor new silver (they remain uncopyable). A
forger however, may defraud via such means.

So, at most, you may be able use Satoshi magic to highlight plagiarism, but
that is not the same as preventing copying (or even preventing plagiarism).

As to the different question of what is good for society?

The people's insatiable appetite for culture and the liberty to share and
build upon it is naturally good and vital, but there is no appetite for the
vain deceit of plagiariasm, except in fools craving fame. Let's not confuse
the two.



> So you're saying that property rights are a state granted 
> privilege and not a natural right?

Rights are natural.

Privileges (legislated, private powers) are granted by the state.

Because, privileges are like rights, people call them rights, and then we
have to qualify innate rights as natural rights.

Because, some privileges are like property rights, people call them property
rights, etc.

So, what some people call intellectual property rights, are actually
privileges, e.g. created by copyright or patent legislation.

So, the language (and law) having been corrupted, one has to be very careful
in the language one uses.


> Like I said above, I disagree. Property rights existed long 
> before states and continue to exist after state authority breaks down.

This is the case for natural property rights, but not for state granted
'property rights'.