Live discussion with Greg Nagy via ichat, April 12, 1999, 7:30 pm EDT
Alexander asks:
OK, I had a question about the shield we read for last week. There's a description of a prize, or as I understand it gold, to be given to the best case presented. Am I understanding that right?
Greg Nagy:
Yes, but the value of gold is not made clear, because even the measure of gold is left vague.
Alexander asks:
So does this mean that the notion of right and wrong is being sidestepped?
Greg Nagy: never, but I will not elaborate
tjenkins:
(That's a joke, folks.) We're ready to go; if one of the new-comers has a question, fire away!
It will be moderated through me and then sent on, if accepted, to Prof. Nagy Your questions may be slightly edited for brevity or clarity.
And welcome aboard =).
Questions, anyone?
Alexander asks:
The scene of justice being given on the shield, or at least of cases being presented, how does this relate to Achilles, and the decisions he must make in coming scrolls.
Greg Nagy:
That is a good place to start. For me the important thing to keep in mind at all times is that any creation in this poetry is primarily a poetic creation. That is, nothing in the Iliad exists in a vacuum. Everything exists within the poetic creation.
bludru asks:
I would be interested in knowing where the graphic for the shield came from. I am ignorant of whether we know whether the shield was real, and, if so, how it actually looked.
Greg Nagy:
We took the graphic from a collection of artists' attempts at re-creating the shield in terms of various different art-forms.
Alexander asks:
So is the image we have on the web page really just a figment of some romantic artist's imagination?
Greg Nagy:
We need not say "romantic"; that can be a relative term.
tjenkins:
To follow up on the question about the shield, there was a lot of discussion on the hypernews forums about the shield and Achilles' world-view. How do we know that the shield represents Achilles' view and not, say, Hephaestus'?
Greg Nagy:
Any representation within a representation is controlled not by our standards of reality but by the standards of the representation. ...
tjenkins:
(for those just entering the discussion, feel free to pass along a question!)
Greg Nagy:
It is the Iliad's artistic creation that we need to consider as our primary given, instead of whatever we think corresponds to that creation in our "real world."
bludru asks:
If I understand Prof. Nagy's point, it is Homer who is using poetic creation to shape historic events to make the points that he wants made. Therefore his concerns about justice dictated the decision to begin with the quarrel to foreshadow later discussions about the City of Peace?
annep asks:
What does it mean to exist in "poetic creation" as opposed to some other form of existence?
Greg Nagy:
This question hits the nail on the head. There is a great deal of artistic premeditation about whatever is being represented. That includes the world of the hero, but it also includes the picture of that world as well. Let me say more about poetic creation. The rules of this creativity are not necessarily the same rules that we assume for the "real world."
Alexander asks:
I guess what I mean is that I have struggled to imagine the scenes described, and maybe I shouldn't even think of these scenes literally, but rather metaphorically...
Greg Nagy:
Even the terms "literal" and "metaphorical" need to be reassessed in this context. The tougher term is "literal." We need to know the rules of the poetry before we can establish what "literal" is. "Metaphorical" is easier... In this case, it's simply a matter of substituting one thing for another thing and thereby achieving a shift in meaning.
annep asks:
But surely the world of the hero has some connection to "the real world" or we would not be so fascinated with it?
Greg Nagy:
Yes. But the "real world" is filtered through our cultural heritages. We bring into our viewing our own predispositions.
bludru asks:
In his book, The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, Julian Jaynes argues that the ancient Greeks actually did think differenlty than we did. The hemispheres of their brains did not have the same intercommunication as ours, so that when they heard the gods talk to them -- they literally heard the gods talk to them. In that sense, this is not poetic creation but a glimpse into an earlier way of thinking.
Greg Nagy:
I have read Jaynes' book and find it very good to think with. But I disagree with his notion that the Iliad is bicameral, while the Odyssey is unicameral. It is fair to say that many concepts in Homeric poetry cannot be expressed by way of one word but by way of combining two or three words. To that extent, I can see the point of talking about bicameral and even multicameral visualizations.
annep asks:
and what of an all-encompassing human condition?
tjenkins:
(this is continuing a line of thought from above)
Greg Nagy:
Many cultures have models of encompassing more than less of human experience, but I am dubious about believing the totalizing claims of any culture _in toto_.
Alexander asks:
Professor Nagy speaks of "rules of poetry". Do you mean rules as in rhyme, meter and so on, or are you suggesting "bigger" rules?
tjenkins:
(keep those questions rollin' in, folks, this is great!)
Greg Nagy:
Rules like rhyme, rhythm, etc. are surface phenomena. To use the terminology of Chomsky, we must also think of the "deep structure."
tjenkins:
Could you elaborate on deep structure?
Greg Nagy:
Deep structure has to do with the mind's capacity to generate a variety of structures; the structures themselves are just visible manifestations of what is generating...
The process of generating language, including poetic language, is what we are seeking to describe.
Alexander asks:
Could you say a little bit more about what you mean by bicameral and unicameral - one chamber two chambers OK, but what does that mean?
tjenkins:
(This goes back to the question about Jaynes' book about ancient ways of thinking.)
Greg Nagy:
The Jaynes idea concentrates on the compartmentalization of different aspects of thinking.
tjenkins:
Could you give an example of this?
Greg Nagy:
Take for example the distinction between concrete and abstract. One way to get "unicameral" about this distinction is to switch an abstract noun from the singular to the plural. ...
tjenkins:
For those just joining in, feel free to ask a question about Homeric narrative, the shield, last week's assignment, etc.
Greg Nagy:
Thus singular _odium_ is "hatred" - in the abstract. But plural _odia_ is specific instances of hatred, very concrete.
tjenkins:
I had a lot of questions on the bulletin board about ancient conceptions of wrath and _menis_. What impact does that first word have on our understanding of the shield/book one?
Greg Nagy:
The poetic idea of _mEnis_ concerns the hero's connections to the capacity of the cosmos to react to disorder and outrage.
Since the Shield is an ultimate exercise in cosmic ordering, the questions of a hero's wrath can best be viewed through its totalizing vision.
bludru asks:
Is yesterday's menis today's menace? How do they differ?
Greg Nagy:
The words are not connected, but I take your point. The poetic word _mEnis_ does indeed convey the idea of a sort-of Sword of Damocles hanging over the threatened world.
Alexander asks:
Actually, I have a question about definitions. _Bie_ - marshal fury - is that the same as Menis, this reaction to disorder and outrage?
Greg Nagy:
The word _biE_ is more specific than _mEnis_: it is martial in the human realm, stormy in the divine realm.
tjenkins:
Are there other types of anger in the Iliad?
Greg Nagy:
Yes, there is _kholos_, which refers to an outburst of uncontrolled rage, and _kotos_, which is a controlled and "theatrical" kind of anger. ...
The type of anger known as _kotos_ has a clear teleology in the plot of heroic song. People can stage the outcome of their _kotos_ in horrible scenes of vengeance.
maryebbott asks:
We had some questions about how to evaluate the behavior of Achilles and Agamemnon in their quarrel, in connection to Achilles' menis over the taking of Briseis. How would their own society have judged their actions and reactions?
Greg Nagy:
There was a strong sense of "fair play," involving a recognition of who is worth how much. This was a very hierarchical system of thinking, where _isos_ means not "equal" but "equitable" - that is, corresponding to one's relative worth. ...
But the thing is, the Iliadic audience would see how inequitably Achilles is treated. And that is the fault of Agamemnon.
tjenkins:
We also had some questions about the definition of _heroism_. How does this tie into what Roy Batty might term 'questionable' things?
(Roy Batty is a character from the movie Bladerunner; he's a replicant, with superhuman powers, who has done, well, questionable things.)
Greg Nagy:
As a friend of mine likes to say, "the Greek hero is not good." That is to say, it is simplistic to view the Greek hero as a static icon designed to be admired for his or her superiority. ...
The hero is dynamic, not static. You cannot evaluate him or her until the full story has been told.
moulton asks:
Why is Achilles portrayed as a hero? He brings untold misery and suffering to people through his violence, and he drags the body of Hector around like some bigot in Texas? Isn't he as much villain as hero?
Greg Nagy:
The term "hero" does not imply "good-guy" (vs. "bad-guy"). The Greek narrative tradition explores human capacity for both good and evil. ...
Alexander asks:
I am also wondering whether we are reading of this anger, this quarrel, this war, as a way to understand modes of thought and behavior in -for want of a better term, 'ancient times'- or as a way to give is insight into our own behavior in quarrels, in anger and in war...
Greg Nagy:
The patterns of behavior in which heroes find themselves are "larger than life" but still identifiable. Heroes do both good and bad "big-time."
tjenkins:
To jump in on this question, heroes are never 'all-good'; even Herakles (undoubtedly a hero) slaughters his family in a particularly unfortunate episode. It's through _suffering_ (from evil deeds and good) that a hero is a hero, in the Greek sense.
bludru asks:
Is the poetic impulse born of the innate human need to transcend the chaos of today, by proposing an ordered future?
Greg Nagy:
Not just ordered future but even ordered present and past!
Alexander asks:
So, I suffer, I am a hero?
Greg Nagy:
No, because you are not larger than life - yet!
annep asks:
Can you comment on distinctions of gender between male and female heroes?
Greg Nagy:
A good way to explore this is to examine how heroes actually cry. The physiology of sobbing is different for men and women. ...
The descriptions of weeping are quite accurate in making distinctions. The curious thing is, Achilles is able to weep either as a man or as a woman. This poetic "gift" given to Achilles has to do with the focus of the culture on this particular hero.
tjenkins:
In the time we have remaining, let's turn the discussion to the shield itself, and the scene of litigation on it. Many participants were confused about what exactly is happening: payment versus the _right_ to pay. Can you comment on this?
Greg Nagy:
The Greek text here has given readers a lot of trouble, because the syntax is so subtle. But the most recent work makes it clear that, yes, the defendant is claiming the _right_ to pay a given amount
maryebbott asks:
Can the scene of litigation be a more modern way of settling disputes from what we see in scroll one with Agamemnon? Can this be possible?
Greg Nagy:
Yes, it corresponds to an arbitrated event. The quarrel between Achilles and Agamemnon was not submitted to arbitration - not in Scroll I.
maryebbott asks:
Who determines what that amount is? The injured party or the elders or the people offering money to the best argument?
Greg Nagy:
The elders merely suggest a formula. They have competing formulas. It is the _histOr_ or arbitrator who will pronounce the decisive formula.
bludru asks:
The "polis" -- the second circle of people who comment on the case on the shield -- are they the forerunner of a jury? Does Homer trust that they will not function as a mob?
Greg Nagy:
I really like this question. Yes, they are forerunners of a jury - in a sense. Notice that the outermost circle is not told what is right or wrong. Not in those terms.
tjenkins:
Sometimes you use the terms 'synchrony' and 'diachrony' when discussing Homeric poetry and what 'current' events might mean to an Homeric audience. Can you elaborate? Current events might = current legal or juridical developments.
Greg Nagy:
A synchronic viewpoint focuses on the workings of a system at a given time and place. A diachronic viewpoint focuses on the changes in that system over time.
moulton asks:
The ransom vs. revenge dichotomy seems to waltz right past the alternative of redemption. Does the notion of redemption ever occur to the litigants?
Greg Nagy:
The Christian notion of redemption goes beyond the parties directly affected in a dispute. If we stick to pre-Christian contexts, then redemption _is_ ransom, no?
tjenkins:
Is there anything in scroll nine that we should keep in mind as we continue our reading for this week?
Greg Nagy:
It is essential to ask how Scroll 9 changes our perspectives after Scroll 1. There are new questions being asked about the value of human life. For example, is Achilles willing to give up his life in order to get a chance to get into epic?
tjenkins:
One of the terms you use to describe the story of Meleager in Scroll Nine is _ainos_. What exactly is an ainos?
Greg Nagy:
An _ainos_ is a form of discourse where you mean one thing on the surface and another, more important, thing under the surface.
tjenkins:
(Greg's typing, it'll be just a moment =).
Greg Nagy:
I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to read the story of Meleager carefully. This story gives hundreds of insights into the moral dilemma of Achilles.
TB So asks:
Were the first readers of the Iliad living in a City of Peace? How far off in their minds is the City of War?
Greg Nagy:
The city of war is always around the corner for Greek society. War was a ritualized part of a city's life, recurring on a seasonal basis.
The war that is going on in the Meleager story of Scroll 9 is a perfect testing ground for the heroic choices that Achilles has to make.
Think of the anger that Meleager feels, and compare it to Achilles' anger.
tjenkins:
(Greg's typing again)
Think of what Plato would have thought of iChat!
The mind boggles.
Greg Nagy:
Another important connection between the Meleager story and the scene on the Shield is that we get such a clear picture of the heroic priorities in both.
tjenkins:
Is this what you mean by 'ascending scale of affection?'
That came up in this week's dialogue on the web.
Greg Nagy:
The hero defines himself by way of how he relates to others.
tjenkins:
OK, one or two final questions?
Greg Nagy:
The values of Meleager, as we can discover them through the sequencing of the story, help understand the preoccupations in the litigation scene.
bludru asks:
I would also like to thank Dr. Nagy for his time, his knowledge, and his quick responses. I would hope that he would be willing to do this again. How can we get transcipts?
tjenkins:
This session has been logged, and transcripts will be made available later this week (with luck, tomorrow).
Greg Nagy:
Thank you for that very generous comment. I am very excited about this way of reaching my respondents directly. I would love to do this again.
tjenkins:
We hope also to do this again in the future (perhaps next monday, but earlier in the day, for those in other hemispheres).
Thank *you* for your time and willingness to engage in this experimental dialogue!
(you plural, that is)
The other TF's remind me that 'y'all' would have covered this little grammatical detail.
Greg Nagy:
I, Greg Nagy, thank all of you for participating in this dialogue. Please get your questions ready for the next time!
tjenkins:
Good night!