May 5, 1999

gnagy::	I hope that people will discuss the role of Hermes in Scroll 24. Tom gave a nice discussion this week.
tjenkins::	we're waiting for people to arrive!
	twiddles his cyberthumbs
	We're still waiting.
	Things to think about:
	Hermes in Iliad 24.
	The Laments.
	The Shield as 'micro-narrative.'
	Transitions and endings.
	Alexander: You are on the stage, not the auditorium.
	(Everyone loves a spotlight ;-)
	For everyone else: we're waiting just a minute or so more.
	Starting sending your questions now!
gnagy::	I am also eager to talk about the artistic motifs that are actually attested for narrating the equivalent of what happens in Scroll 24. ...
tjenkins::	alexander: no, you are still on stage, and use the /msg command to communicate privately!
gnagy::	For example, if you look at the Boston Hydria, which is mentioned in our Lectures, you see an abbreviated alternative to the narrative closure that we find in Scroll 24.
tjenkins::	solicits questions!
gnagy::	Albert Lord liked to talk about expanded vs. compressed versions of any given narrative in oral poetics. ...
	The Boston Hydria shows a compressed variant that correspondes to the expanded variant that we find in Scroll 24.
	typo: corresponds, not -es.
	In the compressed variant of the Boston Hydria, we see a direct divine intervention. In the expanded variant of Scroll 24, we see an indirect divine intervention. ...
	Hermes works by way of suggestion, not direct intervention. ...
tjenkins::	asks for questions
gnagy::	He helps Priam get into the camp of the Achaeans and, just as hard, to get out when his mission is accomplished.
casey asks:	How do Expansion and Compression in narrative play out in artistic representations?
gnagy::	On the Boston Hydria, we see Iris intervening directly by stopping the dragging of Hektor's corpse by Achilles. ...
	In Scroll 24, Hermes intervenes indrectly by suggesting to Priam - in a dream, no less! - that he approach Achilles. ...
tjenkins::	The text of the shield of Achilles should be displayed on your iChat screen, for those that wish to refer to the text directly.
gnagy::	That seems to be an impossible mission, but Hermes' indirect action makes all possible. ...
casey asks:	So several scenes get inflated into one?
gnagy::	Yes, in the Boston Hydria, you see several different frames of action viewed all at once. ...
tjenkins::	passes around a hat for questions!
gnagy::	In Scroll 24, the plot seems to be constructed on the level of human motivations alone, since the divine interventions are so subtle. ...
	But in fact the intervention of Hermes is just as much a part of the Divine Apparatus as is the intervention of Iris on the Boston Hydria. ...
casey asks:	Would the ancient Greeks have objected if they saw an artistic representation that didn't exactly match their version of the Iliad?
gnagy::	Not at all... The variation of themes was part of tradition. People were used to see local traditions played off one against the other. ...
casey asks:	How much freedom did the artists have to vary, expand and compress?
tjenkins::	greg is typing!
gnagy::	The synthesis of such local variations led to "the Classic."
	The freedom was conditioned by the audience.
davebartlett asks:	As we come to the end of the epic, is it fair to say that the shield is a metaphor (or collection of metphors) for Achilles life as a hero... or also as a stand-in for the community at large... or both?
gnagy::	Yes, the picture on the shield works well that way. I. A. Richards calls this device the "vehicle."
tjenkins::	Can you elaborate on Richard's terminology vehicle, tenor, ground?
	terminology=vehicle, tenor, ground, I mean
gnagy::	For Richards, the "tenor" is the overall plot, say, while the "vehicle" is the metaphor or simile within that mega-narrative.
maryebbott asks:	Why do some warriors get eaten by birds and dogs (as in scroll 1, line 5), but the gods won't let it happen to Hector?
gnagy::	Actually, this dire fate is always a threat, and it never becomes a reality in the actual narrative.
davebartlett asks:	Does Achilles here represent in some sense the "best and worst" of the entire community as he progresses through the narrative toward a more "civilized" state?
tjenkins::	Excellent question.
gnagy::	Yes, and we see here the essence of Greek heroes...
tjenkins::	(Gets to the heart of the series!)
gnagy::	They are larger than life in their bad moments as well as in their many good ones. ...
	The way Achilles threatens Hektor shows his worst moments...
	Going back to dogs and birds...
tjenkins::	(greg is typing)
gnagy::	In Greek curses, the idea of having your corpse devoured by dogs and birds is the same as saying that you have lost your access to an afterlife. ...
tjenkins::	(still typing)
gnagy::	So, for Achilles to threaten and curse like this evokes the biggest psychic fears in the culture.
maryebbott asks:	How about that variation that Tom Jenkins mentioned on the discussion board--where the Iliad ends with the coming of the Amazon Penthesilea?
tjenkins::	Yes, how does that relate to transitions and endings in the Iliad?
gnagy::	It's an amazing stroke of artistry... The last words of the _Iliad_ can dovetail directly into the epic of Penthesileia the Amazon. ...
	Even her name means what the name of Achilles means. ...
	Penthesileia means 'sorry of the people'.
davebartlett asks:	Is it fair to view the "city at peace" as representing some sort of higher state to which Achilles evolves after the "city at war"... a more civilized place to which the entire community is evolving?
gnagy::	An excellent formulation...
tjenkins::	This picks up on questions in the hypernews discussion about _demos_ and cities in the Iliad.
gnagy::	The same city can be seen through two different lenses.
tjenkins::	(greg is typing)
gnagy::	It's like the concept of the "shifter" - I discussed it with you all earlier ...
Euterpe asks:	How can Achilles represent the community? He is a special case with his part divine birth and kingship.
tjenkins::	I think it's like Louis XIV (I think): L'etat, c'est moi.
	The state *is* the king.
gnagy::	It's the king who is the body politic, from the heroic point of view.
tjenkins::	Or, rather, the king is the state, in terms of heroic poetry.
	Greg: Can you relate this to Romulus' death in the Roman tradition?
gnagy::	Plutarch reports a variant myth about the death of Romulus as founder of Rome. ...
tjenkins::	That would be a good way to illustrate the connection between heroic body and civic identity.
gnagy::	He is dismembered by the proto-senate, and each senator takes a piece of his body home ...
tjenkins::	is thrilled with these questions and solicits more!
gnagy::	Every time the senate reconvenes, the members of the king's body are notionally reassembled.
casey asks:	The poet seems to call attention to the "realistic" aspects of the shield while at the same time emphasizing its wondrous qualities. Would the Greeks have imagined an actual shield?
tjenkins::	(This was a point discussed in the hypernews forum. What is the 'real' aspect of the shield--or is this question not applicable?)
gnagy::	They would expect a poetic realization to stretch the limits of imagination in ways that would be impossible in a purely visual-art representation.
maryebbott asks:	Does the indirect quality of the divine intervention have anything to do with the human-centered quality of the litigation scene?
tjenkins::	greg is typing!
gnagy::	An excellent point! Hermes has a parallel effect in Scroll 24. He humanizes the motivations.
	I am fascinated with the second-guessing of the plot in Scroll 24. ...
tjenkins::	Hermes is also the god of connections, of going-between. I see a lot of transitions in Scroll 24!
gnagy::	If Achilles had allowed Priam to leave the camp only in the morning, the epic would be ruined. It is a good thing that Hermes intervenes.
Euterpe asks:	A "purely visual-art representation" of the shield leaves so much out. It cannot bring in the many facets of character of each individual. Is this not why the poetic form was chosen for the shield?
gnagy::	Good! This way, poetry can gloss things over even more effectlvely, thereby highlighting other things.
tjenkins::	And what does the shield highlight in specific, in a way that art could not?
gnagy::	The Shield highlights the most basic of human reactions, while shading over any mitigating circumstances.
maryebbott asks:	Weren't we going to talk about song and weddings and farming scenes as well?
tjenkins::	solicits questions about songs and weddings and farming scenes =)
gnagy::	The singing and general merriment provide an interesting backdrop to the intense human struggle going on in the foreground.
tjenkins::	Here's a question that's come up a number of times--what's a Linos song?
gnagy::	The LInus song is about a "vegetation god" who dies in order to be reborn - much as vegetation is regenerated.
	Sir James G. Frazer was a pioneer in studying the many myths of the world that center on this kind of theme.
tjenkins::	This is close to Frazer, yes, who sees regeneration as the essence of many myths?
	oh, that was answered =).
casey asks:	Why does Helen "get the last word" (as it were!) with her final lament. It just seems a little wierd
gnagy::	Linus is analogous to Achilles, who is compared by his mother to a "tender young shoot," nurtured in the choicest corner of an orchard.
davebartlett asks:	Is the eternal remembrance accorded heros such as Achilles a kind of "rebirth"
gnagy::	Yes, and you notice that it's a cyclical rebirth!
	Every time performance happens, Achilles is regenerated.
Euterpe asks:	Music is such a large part of Greek life. When it enters a poem or play does it not have a "double entendre" for the listener or reader?
gnagy::	It is not just double but multiple.
tjenkins::	Greek music is incredibly self-referential that way--music such as Homeric poetry referring to its own medium of _kleos_, literally, 'a heard thing'.
gnagy::	The immanence of music allows you to bring into it your past memories of hearing it - including your past memories of how you felt back when.
maryebbott asks:	Even speech can sound like song in Epic, such as Andromache's speeches all 'sounding' like lament--they are lament in form.
gnagy::	Yes, it not only sounds like song, it is song made over in epic style. Epic is a mega-genre that actually encompasses all other genres.
tjenkins::	And as such, epic can involve multiple genres within itself: lament, praise poetry, even sports narration (!)
gnagy::	Yes, even sports narration, as we see it in Scroll 23.
davebartlett asks:	There was some discussion in one of the hypernews groups about the evolution of the sung epic and the point at which it was fixed and written down. Could you elaborate/comment on the discussion/dispute about that point??
gnagy::	Opinions vary. Some like Janko think that it happened in the 8th c.; others like me go for the 6th.
	Of course, I mean BCE
tjenkins::	Greg has also written about this in "Poetry as Performance", which came out Cambridge UP 1996.
	He has a lot about the difference and transitions between script, transcript, and scripture!
wmnolte asks:	Doesn't "epic" imply not just that the process of evaluation is infinitely deferred, but also infinitely repeated? Isn't that part of the song?
gnagy::	Infinite repeatability is definitely part of song. That is why the metaphor of the nightingale's song in springtime is so powerful when it is applied to poetry and song.
tjenkins::	Can you elaborate on the nightingale's song?
	and how it pertains to the poetics of song making?
gnagy::	The Odyssey elaborates on this theme at length. In the Iliad, there are no extended references, but we can reconstruct the idea of an eternally recycled song that responds to the moment of newness every thime.
	typo. .. I meant "time'
Euterpe asks:	Do we not have to differentiate between music accompanying the weddings and funerals, etc. and the musical imagery built into the poem. They would be two different species but related.
gnagy::	Margaret Alexiou's work on laments shows that expressions of sorrow can be reused for expressions of joy and vice versa.
tjenkins::	passes around a hat for more questions about Iliad 24, and final thoughts about justice and morality in the Iliad.
	greg is typing
gnagy::	Olga Levaniouk has written a brilliant article on the lament-bird _pEnelops_ as the "inspiration" for the theme of a lamenting Penelope in the Odyssey.
casey asks:	Isn't Penelope's name connected with birds?
tjenkins::	ooops, that was just answered =)
glaxo asks:	There is a special quality about the description of the Shield of Achilles, and other more specifically topographical descriptions in the Iliad (I think of Iliad 14-- Hera and Zeus)-- could we say more about this particular 'limit' of poetry, and why ekphrasis might be especially useful for describing immortal things and places?
tjenkins::	greg is typing
gnagy::	That question is a very sensitive reading of Lessing's essay, with an imaginative reinterpretation of the concept of "limits."
tjenkins::	Can you say more about limits in the context of Lessing's essay, now that the series is reaching completion?
gnagy::	I think of the limitlessness of ever-expanding outer circles, as the audiences of Homeric poetry extend into the future.
davebartlett asks:	By the end of the epic narrative has Achilles's morality changed? Are we meant to appreciate a different... possibly more advanced... concept of justice and the worth of human life?
tjenkins::	This goes to the heart of questions about the structure of the Iliad!
gnagy::	Yes, Dave, and you are giving our dialogue an excellent sense of closure.
	But the thing about this medium is that there is always a way out of the closure, keeping things open-ended.
tjenkins::	greg is typing
gnagy::	That has to do with the ever-recurring love for a good story.
	Plato understood this, I think.
	I love the way Plato keeps _his_ dialogues open-ended.
	That is, the mythical element of his dialogues is open-ended, and by that he implies that the dialogue is also open-ended.
maryebbott asks:	Is regret for past 'bad' actions a part, or a necessary part of morality in Homeric epic?
gnagy::	There is something very bittersweet about regrets, and Achilles is the master of regrets.
tjenkins::	sees greg typing away furiously
gnagy::	The emotions of regret are the essence of lament, and we must keep in mind that Achilles is truly "the man of constant sorrow."
glaxo asks:	the biggest question of them all-- what is the value of human life-- have we answered that yet in terms of the 'master of regrets'?
tjenkins::	What a wonderful question!
gnagy::	I second Tom's reaction... A magical answer!
	You notice that I view Glaxo's words as an answer.
tjenkins::	greg is typing
	To paraphrase: have we answered what is the value of a human life?
	he's typing
gnagy::	I think that the limitlessness of the grief is akin to the limitlessness of a human life. What better way to picture this?
tjenkins::	I think it's time to wrap up this ichat! Before you go....
	please take the time to fill out the feedback form to be found
	on the main page of the /heroes site. (I wanted to
	get that in before people logged off for the evening.)
	*Thank you for your continued
	participation in this dialogue series....
	it meant a lot of us to have a large and willing
	constituency for this experiment, and your comments
	and suggestions will enable us to
	revamp and possible relaunch the site in the future.
	If you have questions, comments, etc,
	please feel free to relay them to the HPJ staff through e-mail or the feedback
	page, or send a private /msg right now
	to me (tjenkins:) or to greg (gnagy:)
	by typing /msg tjenkins: (message)
	or /msg gnagy:
	Have a good night! We'll be logged on for a few minutes more.
	We just couldn't continue after that questions about the limitlessness of a human life!
	that question, rather.
	keeps his ears open for questions
	the dialogue is over, but we are still taking comments, if you want!