tjenkins:

Greg is running from another meeting--he should be here shortly!

The ichat still has a few more minutes before it begins formally.

You can take this time to play with the controls.

If you want to e-mail me (tom) a private message, you can type /msg tjenkins

if you want to talk with me privately, you can type /msg tjenkins (your message here)

Greg is now arriving, we should be going shortly.

we're here, and setting up!

we'll be starting in a moment!

accidently wander into the lobby =)

wandered, rather.

Greg's computer keyboard just disconnected. One moment!

Talk about bad timing.

We're now on our hands and knees reconnecting it.

in the meantime, why not send questions that occur to you?

(about the Iliad, that is, not computer keyboards ;-)

In the meantime, Greg is going to speak through tjenkins's username.

Wait, we've just connected!

We were about to reenact the magnets in Plato's Ion.

We'll start with a few words from Greg:

in the meantime, ask questions, and they will be queued for him later in the dialogue.

gnagy:

I hope that people have been reading carefully the scene where Priam enters the tent of Achilles in Scroll 24...

tjenkins:

If you wish to speak to me (Tom) directly, type /msg tjenkins and I will get a private message from you.

gnagy:

I am very much taken with the details in this scene...

For example, the mental associations of Achilles keep shifting from Patroklos, which reminds us of Scroll 16, to his father, whose memory is situated in Scroll 24...

... and then back to Patroklos! Think of what the name of Patroklos means: he who is connected to the kleos of the fathers = ancestors.

tjenkins:

Greg is typing....

Still typing!

gnagy:

As we think of these shifting thoughts of Achilles in Scroll 24, we can think back about the scene of Achilles' pursuit of Hektor around the walls of Troy.

It has been made explicit that it is the psukhE of Hektor that is at stake at this point, from Hektor's point of view.

tjenkins:

Can you elaborate about what exactly a _psukhE_ is?

gnagy:

The Homeric concept of psukhE is highly poeticized. It is not just the life-force of a human, it is also an indication of what the hero values about his life.

Technically, psukhE is one's "life's breath."

tjenkins:

solicits questions and comments!

gnagy:

Anyway, Iliad 22 makes it clear that the hero's life is at stake.

maryebbott asks:

What about the psukhE of Patroklos that comes and talks to Achilles?

gnagy:

This is an extraordinary scene. In ancient Greek folklore, the psukhE should be thumb-sized, but here it's life-sized, and Achilles is astonished to contemplate it.

tjenkins:

(greg is typing)

gnagy:

He says to the psukhE of Patroklos... "why, you are LIFE-SIZE!" This is clearly a monumentalization of the hero's life-breath.

maryebbott asks:

What is the significance of the comparison of the chase between Hektor and Achilles to a chariot race?

gnagy:

When Hektor is being pursued by Achilles around the wall, the "prize" is not a tripod or a similar atheltic award but the very psukhE of the hero!

diane asks:

I find the way the gods control humans, especially at the moment of sacrifice (e.g. Patroclus and Hector, esp.) very disturbing, and hard to reconcile with the ideals of human justice that have been presented in this course.

tjenkins:

greg is typing

(hard question!)

gnagy:

This is a deeply troubling question for all of us, but the Iliad does not make the answer clear-cut. There is a great deal of gray area about the "destiny" of the hero in terms of the plot of Homeric narrative.

This is where extra narrative devices like the Shield help focus the big questions... You notice that even the picture on the Shield does not solve the problem of human choice.

maryebbott asks:

Why does Priam kiss the hands of Achilles?

tjenkins:

(for those who just joined us, feel free to ask a question!)

gnagy:

It is a presumption of reciprocity that is not yet there. Such a move is a bold one indeed, because Priam has no basis for this level of intimacy with someone who is his deadliest enemy.

It is precisely this extreme form of human relationship that test the levels of intimacy as well as non-intimacy.

tjenkins:

Priam grabs A. by the knees--is this a form of supplication, too?

gnagy:

Other acts of supplication are 1) touching the knees or 2) touching the chin. These are less extreme gestures than kissing the hand.

maryebbott asks:

Does the supplication of Achilles show that he is more powerful than Priam?

gnagy:

All such acts of supplication are highly ritualistic and tied to the plot of the Iliad.

tjenkins:

solicits questions (don't be bashful!)

gnagy:

The experience of Phoenix in Scroll 9 is eerily comparable to the experiences of Priam and Achilles in Scroll 24. Phoenix, after all, describes how _he_ was once a suppliant at the house of Peleus, the father of Achilles.

maryebbott asks:

There is that great metaphor when Priam comes to Achilles and Achilles looks at him in wonder like a person looks at a murderer who has been exiled and has come to their city.

diane asks:

Ok, back to choice. Achilles wants to kill Agamenon; a goddess prevents him--no choice; he send Patroclus out in his armor--choice; Apollo blocks Achilles from destroying Troy; no choice; Agamemnon sends a delegation--choice. What are the differences between choice and no choice other than the interference of the gods?

gnagy:

To my mind, choices are still being conditioned by the plot, and they seem so clear-cult to us only because the plot-construction is so deft. But all such choices will be challenged by the Odyssey, which is like an alternative to the Iliad.

tjenkins:

How do Achilles' choices appear in the Odyssey?

(this is a follow-up question--Achilles is in the O. also!)

gnagy:

The Odyssey questions every choice that Achilles has made in the Iliad. Diane, I think you will especially enjoy reading Scroll 11 of the Odyssey, where Odysseus "interviews" the psukhE of Achilles in Hades...

tjenkins:

(greg is typing)

(I feel like a sports announcer)

gnagy:

Essentially, Achilles takes it all back, or seems to, when he says that he would trade places with the lowliest living human if he could just come back to life again.

Even the choices that seem final in the Iliad become open-ended in the Odyssey.

Does anybody out there in the auditorium have a sense about the function of lament in Scroll 24?

tjenkins:

Greg is soliciting comments from _you_!

gnagy:

After all, three of the main female characters in the Iliad sing laments at the end of the epic, and that is how it ends! What do you make of that?

It ends with the funeral of Hektor.

diane asks:

Could this be because the Greek hero's "cause" is only himself, and that scarcely lasts after death?

tjenkins:

In the meantime, we consider this question from Diane!

(It's a follow-up.)

(iChat is curiously asynchronous, I find.)

gnagy:

The cause is to last _after_ death, through song, and each hero's cause is different, constantly being tested by the heroic tradition of song.

tjenkins:

for those just joining us, we are soliciting comment on the laments in book 24 in specific, and the language of lament in the Iliad in general.

Please don't be shy! This only works if _everybody_ participates!

diane asks:

That makes a lot of sense to me (the song as cause). Thanks.

gnagy:

I loved your questions.

tjenkins:

we want more! we know you're out there!

davebartlett asks:

Below the surface is the poem raising doubts about the very nature of the heroic ideal?

gnagy:

Don't forget, lament is a key to the kleos of the hero.

tjenkins:

and now to DaveBartlett's question:

gnagy:

Yes, the poem is constantly raising doubts and questions, which cannot be resolved except through the whole plot of the Iliad and Odyssey.

The song is compensation for the heroic ordeals, and this whole theme is woven into the plot of Homeric song in such a way as to define the hero.

diane asks:

So the humans get to grieve and make songs and the gods get to party and appreciate the spectacle (and, no doubt, the songs).

tjenkins:

passes a hat for questions

gnagy:

The "party atmosphere" just heightens the grief. In terms of religion as actually practiced, we know that gods were taken very seriously, though, not frivolously.

The song is by nature intensely connected with grief for the death of the hero, which is considered ultimately beautiful. There is beauty in the death of the hero in this song culture. Only heroes get to die...

tjenkins:

greg is typing

gnagy:

While the gods are never subject to this grief. That is why their involvements with death just intensify the pain for humans.

Alexander asks:

in Priam's embassy to Achilles, if Kharis is the concept of theme being observed, is it fair to paraphrase or understand this concept as charity, or pity?

gnagy:

Definitely! _kharis_ is both the pleasure and the beauty of reciprocity, as in "gratifying" and "graceful" - to use related English-language concepts.

diane asks:

But didn't Zeus grieve at the imminent death of Sarpedon in Book (oops, Scroll) 16?

gnagy:

Notice that Zeus' grief there is only because he is genetically linked to Sarpedon. So the father/son relationship is stronger than that of god/human.

davebartlett asks:

Is one of the questions being raised just below the surface of the narrative perhaps man's rebellion against the notion that a heroic death is after all beautiful?

gnagy:

Actually, even the rebellion is estheticized into poetry.

tjenkins:

sobs for questions

gnagy:

Achilles' rebellion is part of the "charm" of his heroic essence.

Greek heroes die hard, as I was arguing in the dialogues earlier.

diane asks:

And, since the gods have so many demi-human children, their amorous exploits do end in grief, as does Thetis, grieving over both her aging husband and her dying son Achilles: moral, even the beautiful people can suffer. Sorry, but my democratic instincts get really riled by the gods, although I adore the Iliad.

gnagy:

I agree with the point about Thetis. There is a beautiful book about it, written by Laura Slatkin.

tjenkins:

It's called "The Wrath of Thetis", as I recall.

gnagy:

One of the high points of the Iliad is the lament of Thetis over Achilles, who is not yet even dead, in Scroll 18.

She knows that once he agrees to go back into battle, he is already dead.

tjenkins:

This is true also of Andromache's speech to Hektor in Scroll Six, which taps into the language of lament.

gnagy:

And yes, the same goes for the "song" of Andromache in Scroll 6.

tjenkins:

We know that Hektor is a dead man as soon as we hear him lauded in terms usually associated with corpses!

Alexander asks:

You mention the grief of Zeus because of his closer link to Sarpedon by blood rather than divine/human relationship. Does the ascending scale of affection play a part in any of these calculations of relationship?

gnagy:

Good question! Even the relationships of gods and men can be tested along such human experiences as parenthood. By imagining the gods as parents, the poetry is humanizing them.

tjenkins:

greg is typing

gnagy:

It has been asked about the gods in the Iliad: are they anthropomorphic, or are the heroes theomorphic???

maryebbott asks:

Couldn't you link this to questions over whether Helen is worth the war, Briseis worth the argument between comrades, etc.?

gnagy:

Yes, this links to an earlier question.

maryebbott asks:

Aren't both premature laments of Thetis and Andromache already beginning to tell the stories of Achilles and Hektor, even what will happen after their deaths? This is the first song about them.

gnagy:

Yes, and these laments show how important the traditions of women's laments are to the narrative of the Iliad.

Alexander asks:

I'm wondering about these various scales of affection. Does this lead to differing levels of grief. Is a mother's grief greater than a father's, for, say, a lost son? do sons merit more grief /lamenting than daughters? does the condition/circumstanbce of the death alter the grief?

tjenkins:

There's a _very_ startling scale of affection in Sophocles _Antigone_, which is starting to re-evaluate some of the 'heroic values' of the Iliad.

gnagy:

In the end, the father-son relationship comes to the fore. I like the way you asked your question, because we see other relationships explored before we zero in on the father-son relationship in Scroll 24.

tjenkins:

In the Antigone, Antigone says that a son or daughter is able to be replaced, but a brother _never_ is.

gnagy:

This relationship, remember, is encoded in the name of Patroklos - he who has the kleos of the pateres.

tjenkins:

Therefore, Antigone will risk her life for her brother but not for a hypothetical son.

diane asks:

Perhaps, via heroics, a human can aspire to deity?

gnagy:

Yes, that is basic to the trajectory of the hero: he can aspire, but he can never quite make it .

wmnolte asks:

But are the humans important enough -- to the gods -- to count as being in "relationships?"

tjenkins:

greg is typing

gnagy:

Yes, the gods need the humans to define them. This is spelled out in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter.

tjenkins:

greg's fingers are running gracefully o'er the keys

gnagy:

Let's get back to those three laments at the end of the Iliad. I really would like for you to think about that.

Why do you think the Iliad ends this way?

tjenkins:

listens for answers =)

diane asks:

There is no other "reasonable" response to the events but grief

gnagy:

Diane's answer is a beautiful way to summarize the ending of the Iliad. Thank you for addressing my question.

davebartlett asks:

If the lament is personal expression ritualized for the community at large, are these three laments a "summing up" and a looking forward to larger issues? Or is that too much of a stretch?

tjenkins:

Greg is smashing the keyboard with vigor.

gnagy:

Yes, and the fact that Helen of Troy has the last word is a beautiful way to come full circle with the main issues of the "Story of Troy," which is what the Iliad means.

tjenkins:

So the lament of Helen leads us back to the macronarrative of the Iliad story?

gnagy:

After all, when Achilles asks in Scroll 9 whether Helen is worth fighting and dying for, Helen's lament can help provide the answer.

tjenkins:

A telescoping effect?

maryebbott asks:

The laments are also for Troy, since now that Hektor is dead, we know Troy won't survive, so it does look forward to the end of the war.

gnagy:

Here we see the essence of narrative closure, which is communal as well as individual.

tjenkins:

Greg, do you have some closing comments?

(It's almost seven o'clock--how the time flies!)

As a classicist, I really should say tempus fugit.

gnagy:

As we contemplate the closure of the Iliad, I cannot help but think that we have all accomplished our task of reading the Iliad in a communal as well as individualistic way.

Alexander asks:

Speaking of closure, is this connected with Telos, or the moving towards the end?

gnagy:

Yes: in Christian terms, the ordeal is over when the suffering righteous says _tetelestai_: it has come to a telos!

wmnolte asks:

And Helen's sense of the communal:"All shrink and shudder as they go by me," is extraordinarily sad.

tjenkins:

Beautifully said.

gnagy:

I agree: it is haunting. In fact, I always feel haunted when I come to the end of the Iliad. Mary Ebbott has a brilliant paper about this subject of Helen's sense of grief.

tjenkins:

The Book is "Nine Essays On Homer", currently in the press!

Published by Rowman and Littlefield, 1999!

This is the *telos* for now.

We will have one more ichat to close up the series,

most likely on the next Monday night.

At which point we can concentrate more on the 'price' of a Hektor's life, and on the communal reaction to the justice in the Iliad.

I'd love to end with one more comment from Wmnolte:

wmnolte asks:

Eat your heart out, Oprah's booklist!

tjenkins:

*Thanks!* =(

=)

Oops, finger slipped.

=).

Good night!

waves goodbye