Ichat #2!

tjenkins::	Greg, would you like to start us off with some comments?
gnagy::	Let's start by thinking of some specific passages that you have been reading that are relevant to the question, who is the "victim" on the Shield...
	Don't worry about answering with specific Scroll numbers and line numbers...
	Just indicate in a few descriptive words what passage you have in mind...
	The one that I have in mind right now is the passage in Scroll 16 where Patroklos gets killed...
	It's a sacral moment of "holy dread"...
	A god, that is, Apollo, is actually killing a hero with his own hand...
	Nowhere else in Homeric narrative does that happen...
tjenkins::	What are the implications of that passage, then? Why has Homer chosen just one instance of a god slaying a hero?
gnagy::	Now, the thing is, Patroklos is being slain in a sacrificial way, like a victim at a sacrifice of animals for the eating of their flesh...
	The reason for this choice is that Patroklos is like a body double of Achilles...
	As we have seen in several earlier passages, what happens to Patroklos experientially is a mirror of what _will_ happen to Achilles...
	So, when Patrklos gets "sacrificed" (there are vase paintings that feature Patroklos as a sacrificial ram with his throat cut),he is being "sacrificed" _in place of Achilles_!!!
casey asks:	How exactly is Patroklos' death like a sacrifice? What are the similarities?
gnagy::	The sacrificial details are amazingly accurate: first, P. is stunned from behind; then he gets the frontal blow; then he gets the "coup de grace"!!! In _Odyssey_ Scroll 3, there is a description of a sacrifice of a bull that matches this scenario...
davebartlett asks:	Is Patroklas' death a "sacrifice" (in place of Achilles) or a foreshadowing of Achille's heroic death that we know is coming off stage?
gnagy::	In that description of a bull sacrifice, the sacrificer stuns the bull from behind, then the bull gets the frontal blow, then his throat is slit as a coup de grace
	The death of P. is _both_ a foreshadowing, narratologically, _and_ a sacrifice, ritually.
	Dave has asked a very good question here. Keep the questions coming...
tjenkins::	(and continue sending questions on in! I can queue them and then send them on to Prof. Nagy)
gnagy::	And don't hesitate to remind all of us of any particular passage in the Iliad that particularly struck you.
davebartlett asks:	could you amplify on the notion that the new shield fashioned for Achilles encapsulates the future evolution of Greek civilization as exemplified in the polis?
gnagy::	The best way to amplify at this point is to ponder the question: how is the ritualistic "sacrifice" of Patroklos, making him a true sacrificial victim, a point of entry for viewing Achilles as a victim?
tjenkins::	(greg is still typing away furiously!)
	is soliciting more questions
gnagy::	Remember, Achilles is not only the plaintiff but also the victim, _if_ we think of the big questions of Greek civilization.
casey asks:	What about the grief that Achilles begins to experience at the beginning of Scroll 18? I was very moved by that...
gnagy::	A very good point... That shows us how he starts understanding his vicarious identification with Patroklos.
casey asks:	If Achilles and Patroklos are doubles, maybe in 18 Achilles is already grieving for himself
gnagy::	Precisely: he is already becoming "the man of constant sorrow"!
	This transformation would not have happened, however, if P. had not been a "double" for him.
davebartlett asks:	So Achilles and Patroklas together assume the role of sacrificial victim on behalf of the community?
gnagy::	Exactly: and we couldn't see that fully in Scroll 18 if the Shield didn't "focus" us...
	You and I have the advantage of having *started* with the picture on the Shield and of having asked the big questions right off...
tjenkins::	(greg's typing!)
gnagy::	For the audience of the Iliad, the linear narrrative is only getting to the point of asking big questions like ours when they reach Scroll 18.
	That's a lot of linear narrative before the Shield!
maryebbott asks:	Why is it Apollo who has it in for Patroklos in Scroll 16?
gnagy::	Because he has it in for Achilles! P. steps into the role of Apollo's victim.
	Here we see the essence of god/hero ritual antagonism.
	Apollo is antagonistic toward his human double, Achilles.
tjenkins::	Doubled in what way?
gnagy::	Patroklos steps into that role.
	In the ritual mentality of god/hero antagonism, the antagonists experience a "fatal attraction" to each other.
	After all, they are doublets of each other, except that one antagonist is divine, the other is human.
tjenkins::	solicits more questions!
gnagy::	In the case of Apollo and Achilles, both have long hair and are beardless. Both are "musical." Remember the passage where Achilles sings to the lyre.
davebartlett asks:	Could you amplify a bit on the god/hero antagonism of Achiles and Apollo... especially the point that you've made before that they bear a physical resemblance to one another?
tjenkins::	notes that greg is heroically typing
gnagy::	Good question, Dave! Fundamentally, both Achilles and Apollo are "eternal bridegrooms" - to evoke the visualization of Dante.
tjenkins::	How does Achilles interlock with the notion of marriage?
	Isn't his relationship with Briseis totally _outside_ of marriage?
gnagy::	This theme in Dante's poetry was noticed by a student of mine, Paola Tartakoff. The idea is that Achilles is a potential bridegroom, eligible in the eyes of every "girl" in the heroic age.
tjenkins::	In your lecture notes, you bring in Sappho's poem about bridegrooms in connection with Achilles. Can you elaborate?
	sees greg typing.
gnagy::	The amazing thing is, in Sappho's songs the bridal couple Hektor and Andromache are described via the epithet _theoeikeloi_ 'godlike' which is Achilles' epithet in the Iliad.
casey asks:	It's wierd that a killing machine like Achilles could be so sexy for the Greeks...
gnagy::	It is strange, except that Greek heroes are compartmentalized like hard disks. ...
tjenkins::	But doesn't the same go for American action movies? ;-)
gnagy::	And then, at times, the compartments are taken away and there you have the killing machine as a gentle lover instead. This kind of trope happens in opera, too.
casey asks:	Sappho often compares the lover's pursuit with the trials of being a warrior, right?
gnagy::	Exactly! In fact, Sappho's words compare Aphrodite to a loyal "fellow warrior."
maryebbott asks:	In Scroll 7, Hector proposes a duel and promises he will return the body of his victim, after he strips the armor, and says that the Greek victor should do the same. Is the fight over the dead Patroklos just for the armor, then, or does it become a fight for his actually body as well? And why would the body, stripped of its armor, be important?
gnagy::	In ancient Greek religion, the corpse of the hero was a "talisman" of fertility and prosperity for the community. ...
tjenkins::	is passing around a hat for questions.
gnagy::	To venerate a hero was to safeguard his or her corpse. That is why people are ready to die for the "recovery" of a heroic corpse.
	A good example is the myth of Oedipus at Colonus, as dramatized by Sophocles.
casey asks:	Does that go for a Greek warrior's body on Trojan soil? Why do the Trojans want P.'s body?
gnagy::	Even on Trojan soil... Later myths feature narratives about the transporting of Achaean bodies back to Hellenic soil.
maryebbott asks:	But could Patroklos be a "hero" for the Trojans? Could P. bring them fertility?
gnagy::	On the Trojan side, it's a question of _neutralizing_ the talismanic powers of the hero's corpse. Or of redirecting those powers.
	Compare the treatment of Hektor's corpse by Achilles. He wants to negate Hektor's potential for helping the Trojans after death.
tjenkins::	I am passing along a question from Wreilly.
gnagy::	There are exquisite subjective details in the description of the "sacrifice" of Patroklos...
tjenkins::	Is the audience supposed to regard Patroklos himself, what he himself may be thinking, in as reduced a state as that of a sacrificiall bull?
gnagy::	Consider, for example, the way his eyes roll; similarly, the eyes of the sacrificed bull are rolling in Odyssey Scroll 3.
tjenkins::	What do we or Homer's audience know or think about what he is feeling in being inevitably led to this sacrificial slaughter?
	(that's also from Wreilly)
	greg's typing
	with gusto
gnagy::	My teacher, Cedric Whitman, used to describe it to us in class as the feeling of utmost sacred horror. You could say: mysterium tremendum.
davebartlett asks:	So Patrokloas for the Trojans would be a sort of _bad_ luck charm??
tjenkins::	(good question!)
gnagy::	A very good way to put it. This issue is explored in Sophocles' _Oedipus at Colonus_. What kind of cult hero would Oedipus have been for the Thebans instead of the Athenians?
maryebbott asks:	I understand from Hector's earlier speeches in Book 7 that the armor of a slain enemy would be dedicated in temples, but why does Hector then wear the armor he strips from Patroklos?
gnagy::	I am not 100\ure from a ritual standpoint, but the detail sure works from a narratological standpoint. ...
	This way, Hektor looks just like Achilles. That is, Achilles in his older set of armore.
	Excuse the typo: armor.
tjenkins::	Greg just swore at his spelling of 'armor'.
gnagy::	The thing is, the older set of armor would have an older picture of the world of Achilles, no?
tjenkins::	greg is typing
gnagy::	I would love to hear from you, out there, how you think the older picture, as carried by Hektor, would be different from the newer picture, as carried by Achilles.
casey asks:	It must be prety eerie for Achilles to meet Hector on the battle field wearing _his_ armor
gnagy::	When Hektor meets Achilles on the battlefield, they have matching armor, matching looks, and matching pictures on their shields. Except that one picture reflects an earlier outlook.
davebartlett asks:	How significant is that issue of the "older" and "newer" world views represented by the old and new sets of armor?
gnagy::	It's significant for us as "readers" of the linear narrative. We have been moving all along from "older" to "newer" perspectives.
casey asks:	Its just like in the Star Trek episode where there are two captain Picards and they can't both exist in the same space so one of them has to kill the other one
gnagy::	I really like that analogy.
maryebbott asks:	How would an ancient Greek audience react to the descriptions of Achilles grief--his crying and covering his hair with dust--at the news of the death of Patroklos?
gnagy::	They would be super-empathetic. Achilles' is a skilled singer of laments. He can "cry" like a woman as well as like a man. Has anyone out there seen John Waters' film, _Cry Baby_?
tjenkins::	On the web page, we have a link to a modern-day hungarian lament, an example of ritual 'keening'. How does this apply to our discussion of Achilles' grief?
	he's typing along
gnagy::	Comparative methods in anthropology show that women's laments are a powerful point of entry into other modes of song. I'm asking Tom Jenkins to share with you later a link to a Hungarian lament recorded by Bela Bartok.
maryebbott asks:	How do men and women cry differently?
gnagy::	The physiology, as described by the poetry, is different. Different modes of sobbing, convulsing, and so on. Also, the melodies and rhythms would be different.
maryebbott asks:	There are melodies to crying?
gnagy::	Yes, and they have been studied by Harvard professor Margaret Alexiou.
tjenkins::	the hungarian lament is at http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/heroes/lament.html
	greg is typing
gnagy::	The mixing of physiology and musicality is one of the wonders of the song form that anthropologists describe via the blanket term 'women's lament'. Compare also Irish *keening*.
davebartlett asks:	Achilles' grief at the death of Patroklas: to what degree "ritualized" and to what degree "personal... heartfelt?"
gnagy::	Great question! The thing is, ritualization and personal self-expression go together. They are symbiotic in traditional societies.
	It's hard for us moderns to imagine the combination of running tears (even a runny nose), sobbing, convulsing, and so on *with* artistry in rhythm and melody.
tjenkins::	greg is adding an addendum
gnagy::	But that is the beauty of lament: it is art and nature fused.
casey asks:	In the optional reading (scroll 19) we get to see Briseis lament for Patroklos and we get a whole different perspective on the death of heroes
gnagy::	Yes, we get from the standpoint of a woman who is a *captive*. That is a special sub-genre of women's lament.
davebartlett asks:	So the keening behavior of female mourners in Irish or Italian culture, for example, is a form of "ritualized" self expression embracing both the personal and the communal??
gnagy::	Dave, you have phrased it perfectly. You can see why people like me are so fascinated with this form of expression.
maryebbott asks:	In fact, lament can present the personal to the community by describing the woman's position within the community after a death (Michael Herzfeld has studied this).
gnagy::	It fascinated me that Elton John's song was actually *re-applied* from an earlier 'dead princess' to a more immediate one. Each reapplication has its pathos.
tjenkins::	One of my Heroes students did a wonderful paper on lament soon after the death and funeral of Princess Diana: an admixture of personal and communal group.
	communal grief, I mean.
casey asks:	We will see a great example of this fusing of the personal and communal in the funeral of Hector in Scroll 24
gnagy::	The reapplication of Elton John's song was a "first time" for many listeners. That is the advantage of tradition. It works for everyone on a personal level as well.
	Casey has a good point here: I can hardly wait for all of you to read Scroll 24, where all the "agenda" of lament come together in the re-humanization of Achilles.
tjenkins::	notices Greg typing away madly
gnagy::	You can see Achilles in Scroll 24 as one who has finally gone beyond the image of a berserk "killing machine."
maryebbott asks:	What is the connection between lament and the hero, however? Does he need to undergo _pathos_, suffering?
gnagy::	Yes, it is fundamental for the hero to have larger-than-life emotional experiences with which we can empathize.
tjenkins::	What should we think about as we turn to scrolls twenty-two and twenty-four?
	How do they relate with the shield-arming scene earlier in the epic?
gnagy::	Achilles' own words will point the way, when he gives old Priam the example of the mater dolorosa, Niobe, weeping and lamenting for her children.
	And here is a big question to keep in mind... Why does the Iliad, the story of Troy, end with the funeral of Hektor, not the funeral of Achilles?
	What does this ending in the linear narrative tell us about the importance of 'shifters', as I have called them, in the Shield passage.
	How can we shift our perspective from Achilles to Hektor?
	What does such a shift have to do with shifting perspectives of perpetrators of suffering and of victims?
maryebbott asks:	We also see the funeral of Patroklos, too, in Scroll 22--so we can think about both of these funerals.
tjenkins::	Yet another instance of doubling!
	(And that's scroll 23, I believe.)
	Optional reading, but well worthwhile!
gnagy::	Yes, the funeral of P. is a shifting from the experiences of Achilles to those of Patroklos to those of Hektor.
tjenkins::	solicits one or two final questions
gnagy::	All of us as readers need to pay special attention to the transformation of Achilles in Scroll 24. Has he become more humane? That is basic to the Iliad. It is basic to the picture on the Shield.
maryebbott asks:	Sorry, I forgot we have to kill Hector before we can bury Patroklos!
tjenkins::	(Sequence *is* meaning!)
gnagy::	Exactly!
tjenkins::	As Greg likes to say.
	But remember that the picture on the shield is a 'freeze-frame': so meaning can also be achieved by a freeze-frame, which is why we started with the shield.
	The End!
	Thanks for coming!
	And stay tuned for our next ichat (next week, probably in the evening, EDT).
	This conversation has been logged, and we will post the transcript shortly.
	Have a great day!
	says goodbye