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== Changelog ==
* Created: [[User:Crislc|Crislc]] 23:31, 9 October 2006 (EDT)

== October 9, 2006 ==
*[18:19]  GeneKoo Li: I have to admit tho that my own willingness to experiment has also cost me a LOT of time
*[18:19]  GeoffMcG Xi: ah, maybe the annonymity of Cyberspace means that no one knows we made the mistake.
*[18:19]  GeneKoo Li: one reason why I'm willing to experiment is the belief that everything I do can be undone
*[18:19]  GeneKoo Li: ...not always a good assumption
*[18:19]  Rebecca Berkman: would you say that that time was not well spent?
*[18:20]  GeneKoo Li: on balance, it was well spent, but from specific task to task, no it wasn't
*[18:20]  GeneKoo Li: One habit I have is to learn as I go rather than just get a task done, so on any given task "m usually the least efficient person to turn to
*[18:20]  Dancer Morris: then the specific task view is too short sighted -- too bad it's hard to get managers to see past it :P
*[18:20]  GeneKoo Li: but as for these two threads, I'm curious about the intersection between experimentation and identity
*[18:20]  Aphilo Aarde: Can one experiment / be creative efficiently?
*[18:21]  GeneKoo Li: Dancer here suggested that ppl may feel more free to experiment b/c identity in cyberspace is expendible
*[18:21]  GeneKoo Li: But I'm not sure everyone feels quite that way
*[18:21]  Rebecca Berkman: it certainly is kind of true in here.
*[18:21]  David Spaatz: efficient in that sense would be to make many mistakes quickly to learn/discover
*[18:21]  Sariah Chihuly: are we talking about experimenting here in the class?
*[18:21]  Dancer Morris: in a certain conventional sense, no. Somebody who is experimenting and learning will never get something done as quickly as somebody who already knows how to do the thing
*[18:21]  GeneKoo Li: I was surprised to see how many ppl in our group, when asked to talk about identity, discussed the need for "honesty"
*[18:21]  GeoffMcG Xi: i think that is a very advanced perspective. I have a mentor in my program who always asks me whethe the assignments I write are mere exercises or advancimg my knowledge.
*[18:21]  Rebecca Berkman: i could create a new avatar and use it to explore parts of the world that i wouldn't go to in this avatar.
*[18:22]  GeoffMcG Xi: why wouldnt you go there?
*[18:22]  Rebecca Berkman: and then i might discard/disavow that avatar.
*[18:22]  GeneKoo Li: I'm curious, though, Rebecca whether everyone would be willing/able to see things from that perspective
*[18:22]  Dancer Morris: right -- you might not want to explore some of the wilder areas in an identity that is tied to the Berkman Center
*[18:22]  Rebecca Berkman: hypothetically speaking, there might be places that i would not want people to know that i went.
*[18:22]  Rebecca Berkman: perhaps i want to hire an animal for sex services or something like that.
*[18:23]  David Spaatz: would anew id be a level of experiment - seeing through new eyes
*[18:23]  GeoffMcG Xi: you as agent of the berkman center and you are becca, no dbout. i feel the same way.
*[18:23]  Rebecca Berkman: it might not be great if my students encountered me in that environment.
*[18:23]  GeneKoo Li: Hmmm... I guess there is a difference tho between "I don't want to be caught doing this" vs. "I want to experiment with who I am"
*[18:23]  GeoffMcG Xi: what a fascinating sociological study!
*[18:23]  Dancer Morris: if the students were there, they'd probably understand :)
*[18:23]  Dancer Morris: the problem is more with the word getting out of SL somehow, and perhaps hurting Berkman's reputation
*[18:23]  Sariah Chihuly: and if you were anonymous and they were not, wouldn't it make you uncomfortable to know something about them they would never have revealed to berkman institute?
*[18:23]  Rebecca Berkman: a lot of experimentation with identity has to do with finding out whether you'd be willing to "own" that part of your identity.
*[18:24]  GeneKoo Li: If ppl can't separate out their identities, I could see how the idea of experimenting wiht identities would be entirely paradoxical
*[18:24]  Rebecca Berkman: perhaps you want to be able to choose whether to hang onto that experience after you try it.
*[18:24]  GeoffMcG Xi: perhaps identity is multi-faceted
*[18:24]  GeoffMcG Xi: and multi-avatar-ed in SL.
*[18:24]  Rebecca Berkman: the same reason that people break out of their identities on short trips or at summer camp or other places where the changes won't have to be permanent.
*[18:24]  GeneKoo Li: But if you believe your identity is built by your actions, the very act of doing that thing which is "not you" makes it part of you
*[18:24]  Rebecca Berkman: but many of those changes end up being incorporated.
*[18:24]  Dancer Morris: I think it is... there are aspects of self that are hard to realize in RL because they don't suit the place or life situation or body you're in
*[18:24]  GeneKoo Li: ... so some might feel it's very dangerous to "experiment" with identity
*[18:24]  Rebecca Berkman: sure, but you have a choice of whether to make it a part of the public persona of yourself.
*[18:25]  Aphilo Aarde: I wonder how individual identity and group identity interact. What sort of subculturally influenced SL identities are we developing?
*[18:25]  GeoffMcG Xi: btw, has anyone (everyone?) been listening to the NPR stories on SL?
*[18:25]  GeneKoo Li: I listen to NPR nonstop and haven't heard them... which show?
*[18:25]  Sariah Chihuly: no -- which npr program is doing them? ditto to the non stop.
*[18:25]  GeoffMcG Xi: infinite mind. there is a 3 part series on SL
*[18:25]  GeneKoo Li: (OK maybe not nonstop)
*[18:25]  Rebecca Berkman: cool. i'll check them out...
*[18:25]  GeneKoo Li: Oh right they were the ones who brought, ahem, Suzanne Vega in here
*[18:25]  Flip Dobropan: hey alan
*[18:25]  Dancer Morris: I can think of a few... the Goreans and the furries are perhaps the best known subcultures here
*[18:25]  Rebecca Berkman: i hadn't heard of them either.
*[18:26]  GeneKoo Li: At some point Rebecca needs to explain her love for Suzanne Vega
*[18:26]  Alan Lederberg: hi
*[18:26]  GeoffMcG Xi: who?
*[18:26]  Flip Dobropan: are you a student in the course here?
*[18:26]  GeoffMcG Xi: hi alan
*[18:26]  Rebecca Berkman: hmm.
*[18:26]  Alan Lederberg: sortof at large
*[18:26]  GeneKoo Li: When I have time I want to mod this chicken outfit into a penguin and hang with the furries
*[18:26]  Flip Dobropan: ah, what do you think of it?
*[18:26]  Rebecca Berkman: i think someone else needs to explain their love of SV to me!
*[18:26]  Dancer Morris: SV?
*[18:26]  Alan Lederberg: its quite extraordinary
*[18:26]  Rebecca Berkman: Suzanne Vega.
*[18:26]  Flip Dobropan: really? that's exciting
*[18:26]  Dancer Morris: oh
*[18:26]  Flip Dobropan: how so?
*[18:26]  GeoffMcG Xi: who?
*[18:26]  Flip Dobropan: i'm quite curious about this
*[18:26]  Rebecca Berkman: She's a singer.
*[18:27]  Dancer Morris: I like her music, but I'm not sure I'd call it all-out love
*[18:27]  Rebecca Berkman: She gave a concert in SL.
*[18:27]  Rebecca Berkman: She's not one of my favorite artists, but I don't have anything against her really.
*[18:27]  GeoffMcG Xi: very cool--the SL aspect, that is.
*[18:27]  Dancer Morris: there is a wonderful short video about the making of her SL guitar
*[18:27]  You: rushing in with th wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_Vega
*[18:27]  Rebecca Berkman: Just that my dad used to listen to her CD (or maybe just one of her songs) on repeat all the time.
*[18:27]  Rebecca Berkman: Enough to drive one mad....
*[18:27]  GeoffMcG Xi: too bad he didnt play it in my class
*[18:27]  Alan Lederberg: sorry, i was looking around
*[18:27]  David Spaatz: what about this idea that the internet and worlds like SL are physical manifestations of our psychic connection to eachother
*[18:27]  Flip Dobropan: that's okay
*[18:28]  Dancer Morris: any song heard too often is excessive
*[18:28]  Flip Dobropan: so what is great about this course?
*[18:28]  Flip Dobropan: i'm doing some research on sl and education
*[18:28]  GeoffMcG Xi: EVERYTHING!
*[18:28]  Rebecca Berkman: It seems to me that this is a pretty structured way of managing our psychic connection to each other.
*[18:28]  GeneKoo Li: Oh I thought it was something more aesthetic...
*[18:28]  Flip Dobropan: ha, well, that's not very specific
*[18:28]  Rebecca Berkman: All of our interactions with each other are mediated by some technology.
*[18:28]  GeoffMcG Xi: I'm happy to provide specifics.
*[18:28]  Rebecca Berkman: In RL it is the physics of our bodies and the physical world.
*[18:29]  Rebecca Berkman: Here it is the constructed virtual environment.
*[18:29]  GeoffMcG Xi: in fact, i did so for a student doing a pproject on SL in Australia.
*[18:29]  David Spaatz: technology - a tool to relearn knowledge of the ancients - that we are one (not to b 2 spiritual)
*[18:29]  Aphilo Aarde: And this world seems to valorize language mediated by chat, when people can all talk concurrently, which contrasts with conversations in physical space.
*[18:29]  You: is this medium all that different? it seems like SL works very hard to emulate the physical world in many aspects.
*[18:29]  Rebecca Berkman: It is certainly less of what we usually think of as physical, but it has similarly constraining aspects.
*[18:29]  David Spaatz: a mediary
*[18:29]  Rebecca Berkman: Certainly not direct mind-to-mind connection!
*[18:29]  GeoffMcG Xi: but, aphilo, it does so without the physical constraints
*[18:29]  GeneKoo Li: I would agree with what Aphilo said and observe that this is why ppl fear the advent of voice
*[18:30]  Rebecca Berkman: I think the world is structured to be so physical so that we can process it.
*[18:30]  Aphilo Aarde: But the differences and what they make possible are what are so interesting.
*[18:30]  You: and yet, SL seems to eschew a lot of the advantages of more well-spread chat mediums
*[18:30]  Rebecca Berkman: But possibly over time as we get more used to virtual environments they will diverge more from the physical.
*[18:30]  GeoffMcG Xi: i find this much more appealing than a chat room.
*[18:30]  You: even things as simple as an IRC chatroom
*[18:30]  Rebecca Berkman: What advantages crislc?
*[18:30]  You: geoff, what's more appealing?
*[18:31]  GeneKoo Li: to give an example of that divergence I think we're finding it unnecessary to represent classrooms literally
*[18:31]  You: the text-capture system in SL seems less sophisticated than a basic IRC client
*[18:31]  Aphilo Aarde: except representationally, Geoff :)
*[18:31]  Rebecca Berkman: (Gene, you look really funny typing like that!)
*[18:31]  GeoffMcG Xi: let's see. first, i enjoy the visual representations. it takes an individual (like Gene) to create a chicken avatar.
*[18:31]  GeneKoo Li: (I"m trying to motivate myself to find time to turn this into a penguin)
*[18:31]  You: no multi-threading (which I know I complain about a lot). No automatic logs, in part because of the ToS
*[18:31]  You: no spell-check
*[18:31]  Rebecca Berkman: but we could easily create a script that would do the text capture.
*[18:31]  Dancer Morris: I find it much easier to associate what people say with what I perceive as being their "self", because of the visuals
*[18:32]  GeneKoo Li: crislc, having spent no time on IRC and very little on IM myself, how do you find those capacitites to shape the experience?
*[18:32]  Rebecca Berkman: actually, i've been hoping/planning to create a device that takes abbreviated text and turns it into full text.
*[18:32]  Aphilo Aarde: Ideas and language in the physical world are less contrained than gestures, Geoff.
*[18:32]  Rebecca Berkman: so you can type faster and with fewer typos.
*[18:32]  You: while I agree that it can be done, becca, I think it's pretty significant that we haven't done that for our class discussions yet
*[18:32]  GeneKoo Li: as far as typos are concerned are some of us just dinosaurs who care about spellling?
*[18:32]  GeoffMcG Xi: excellent point, aphilio, you devil's advocate
*[18:32]  You: on both the auto-logger and the abbr. typing
*[18:33]  Rebecca Berkman: actually, i think stylefeeder newbold has been working on it.
*[18:33]  GeneKoo Li: Yeah I was impressed by what he posted as his plans
*[18:33]  GeoffMcG Xi: but let me continue. the physical worls would in many ways prohibit this kind of gathering.
*[18:33]  Dancer Morris: people have already made auto-loggers -- but you need consent from everybody present to use them
*[18:33]  GeneKoo Li: I failed to pick up the autologger last Weds while preparing for my lecture
*[18:33]  Rebecca Berkman: And in the meantime we've been using the fairly acceptable substitute of cut and paste from the chat history.
*[18:33]  You: still a subtitute, though. if SL really championed this sort of thing, why isn't it built into the client?
*[18:34]  Rebecca Berkman: that's a good question.
*[18:34]  You: the same way that we can easily take pictures of SL from the client
*[18:34]  Rebecca Berkman: it would be great if it were built in.
*[18:34]  Rebecca Berkman: and unfortunately, we have little leverage to advocate for it.
*[18:34]  GeneKoo Li: You might back up and ask what exactly SL is built for to begin with
*[18:34]  Dancer Morris: Privacy is one of the basic rights of SL -- so client capabilities that make it easier to violate might not be desirable
*[18:34]  GeoffMcG Xi: let me ask this: where are we all?
*[18:34]  Rebecca Berkman: but i agree with Geoff that I find this much richer than IRC chat.
*[18:34]  Aphilo Aarde: We can write letters, and perhaps create the program ourselves and sell it to them?
*[18:34]  GeneKoo Li: if we made it easier to do our thing, are we making it harder to do something else?
*[18:34]  GeoffMcG Xi: im in Binghamton NY
*[18:34]  You: richer just because of the avatars?
*[18:35]  Rebecca Berkman: yes, basically.
*[18:35]  You: for example, as someone (missed who) pointed out, we're not using gestures
*[18:35]  Rebecca Berkman: and the rest of the physical environment.
*[18:35]  GeneKoo Li: Quite frankly ( and I know I experience this differently than a lot of you) I stopped looking at the avatars about 20 minutes ago)
*[18:35]  Aphilo Aarde: Pennsylvania
*[18:35]  Dancer Morris: one problem with chat loggers is that you can leave one in a place where you aren't even present, and hide it...
*[18:35]  GeoffMcG Xi: now, the ability of people from diverse geographic locations to come together is not special to SL.
*[18:35]  You: I'm with gene. my chat history takes up no less than 25% of my screen, just so I can read all the comments
*[18:35]  Dancer Morris: and thus spy on conversations
*[18:35]  Rebecca Berkman: for instance, it was very nice to look at Gene's presentation all together.
*[18:35]  You: and the rest is anchored so that I can see the chat bubbles above everyone's head
*[18:35]  Aphilo Aarde: The web has long compressed time and space.
*[18:36]  GeoffMcG Xi: YES! ahilo
*[18:36]  Rebecca Berkman: And I find that it helps me to be able to see all the people present, even those who aren't talking.
*[18:36]  GeoffMcG Xi: but so has the internet generally.
*[18:36]  GeneKoo Li: Frankly I would have found it a lot easier to present that talk with a synchronous presentation software and phone conference
*[18:36]  GeoffMcG Xi: me too becca
*[18:36]  Rebecca Berkman: but not to so many people, right?
*[18:36]  Dancer Morris: I'm with you there, Rebecca -- I generally use a zoomed-out camera view so I can see everybody
*[18:36]  You: dancer, that's a great point. If you buil tthat functionality into the client, then you could control the results...Linden could actually enforce a system that made your avatar announce when it was recording/autologging
*[18:36]  Rebecca Berkman: we had about 30 people here.
*[18:36]  Aphilo Aarde: It's the nature of representations here, that add something, as well as the ongoing potential for group innovations.
*[18:36]  Rebecca Berkman: could you conference with all of us?
*[18:36]  You: the same way everyone can see/hear the camera esture when you take a picture
*[18:36]  GeoffMcG Xi: and it allows me to differntiate them w/r/t more than a handle. i get a visual representation
*[18:36]  GeneKoo Li: ... but what I think we can't do over distance is collaboration on a much richer / robust level
*[18:37]  Dancer Morris: and I pretty much never use mouselook, though some people love it
*[18:37]  GeoffMcG Xi: i disagree, gene.
*[18:37]  GeoffMcG Xi: very much, i disagree.
*[18:37]  Rebecca Berkman: it makes a difference to me what people choose to look like.
*[18:37]  GeoffMcG Xi: we just havent tried
*[18:37]  GeneKoo Li: I don't think we disagree, Geoff
*[18:37]  Rebecca Berkman: yeah, i think you also don't disagree.
*[18:37]  GeoffMcG Xi: this is what frustrates me about the project aspect about the at-large participants.
*[18:38]  Rebecca Berkman: what about it?
*[18:38]  GeneKoo Li: I'm just agreeing with a lot of other ppl more experienced than myself who've used this space for teaching that lectures and even discussions aren't what makes SL unique
*[18:38]  Rebecca Berkman: that it is hard to organize?
*[18:38]  Dancer Morris: cris -- you hear the shutter if people use the in-world snapshot tool, but it's nearly as easy to just do a screen capture with the tools in your OS
*[18:38]  Aphilo Aarde: For example, Gene? This can be remarkably nuanced, with great potential for development in this respect.
*[18:38]  GeoffMcG Xi: we havent figured out how to efficiently organize project management
*[18:38]  GeoffMcG Xi: its a classic collective action problem
*[18:38]  Dancer Morris: so what do you think IS unique, Gene?
*[18:38]  You: dancer -- which the cut'n'paste of chat logs does as well. there are still workarounds
*[18:38]  Rebecca Berkman: mayeb someone should call an at-large participant meeting in-world?
*[18:38]  GeoffMcG Xi: we have done this weekly becca
*[18:38]  Rebecca Berkman: i've been hoping someone would do that.
*[18:38]  GeoffMcG Xi: well, i have
*[18:38]  GeneKoo Li: I'm not sure what is unique, and I don't think that everything has to be unique to justify using it
*[18:38]  Aphilo Aarde: But this and other Cyberone spaces create a rich record - something else which is novel about this class.
*[18:39]  Rebecca Berkman: so what has happened at these meetings?
*[18:39]  GeneKoo Li: A special arrangement of not-unique things done right can be quite amazing, so I don't want to be too aggressive about what I'm saying/observing
*[18:39]  Rebecca Berkman: have you called one for the purpose of choosing project groups?
*[18:39]  GeoffMcG Xi: i've posted the discussions on the Wiki
*[18:39]  Aphilo Aarde: We're trying to have at-large meetings on Sundays at 5:30 but last night I got a message that SL was closed for maintenance for most of the evening.
*[18:39]  GeoffMcG Xi: there have been a few clarions for projects, but little action.
*[18:40]  Dancer Morris: yesterday was a nightmare :(
*[18:40]  GeoffMcG Xi: i update the wiki weekly
*[18:40]  Rebecca Berkman: is there some way that we can help it get off teh ground?
*[18:40]  GeoffMcG Xi: w.r.t the at large participants. aphilio does too, i believe.
*[18:40]  GeneKoo Li: Geoff, you are an at-large participant, yes?
*[18:40]  You: that's very interesting, geoff (about the little actio nfor projects)
*[18:40]  GeoffMcG Xi: yes, gene
*[18:40]  Rebecca Berkman: we'd be very happy to help, but the main leadership needs to come from within the community because we're stretched pretty thin already.
*[18:40]  GeneKoo Li: For one thing the projects haven't gotten off the ground yet
*[18:40]  GeoffMcG Xi: i wonder why that is cricsl
*[18:40]  GeneKoo Li: The "official" participants haven't even chosen them at this point
*[18:40]  You: i've noticed a similar thing in my project group, of Extension School students.
*[18:41]  GeoffMcG Xi: this is why i see a number of leaders sptepping up
*[18:41]  GeoffMcG Xi: i dont want to put the responsibility on you, becca and gene.
*[18:41]  Rebecca Berkman: if you think there are some leaders in the community, we can give "posting rights" to them for the at-large participant email list.
*[18:41]  Rebecca Berkman: would that help?
*[18:41]  Rebecca Berkman: and we could try to recognize them somehow.
*[18:41]  GeoffMcG Xi: perhaps. but i think there needs to be some organizational meetings
*[18:42]  You: would reputation work as a payoff here?
*[18:42]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm happy to help organize if you want to communicate directly about this.
*[18:42]  GeoffMcG Xi: recognition is nice, but not necessary
*[18:42]  GeoffMcG Xi: here here, aphilo
*[18:42]  Rebecca Berkman: If you organize for Thursday night at 9pm this week, that would be a good time.
*[18:42]  GeoffMcG Xi: for you, becca?
*[18:42]  Rebecca Berkman: We aren't having class then, but I'll be here.
*[18:42]  GeoffMcG Xi: me too
*[18:42]  You: does recognition from the Berkman Center work as a sort of SL currency? (per Benkler)
*[18:43]  David Spaatz: 9 SLT?
*[18:43]  Aphilo Aarde: I can get here by 9:30.
*[18:43]  GeneKoo Li: Geoff do you have a project in mind atm?
*[18:43]  Rebecca Berkman: 9m EST, sortty.
*[18:43]  GeoffMcG Xi: alright then. I'll post a meeting, 9 pm EST
*[18:43]  GeoffMcG Xi: on the Wiki.
*[18:43]  Rebecca Berkman: sorry for sortty
*[18:43]  GeoffMcG Xi: for the At large
*[18:43]  Rebecca Berkman: If you write an announcement about it, I'll post it to the at-large list.
*[18:43]  Rebecca Berkman: There are over 80 people on the list now!
*[18:43]  GeoffMcG Xi: great! THANK YOU!
*[18:44]  GeoffMcG Xi: I'm very very excited about this.
*[18:44]  Rebecca Berkman: Cool.
*[18:44]  Dancer Morris: I can come around and help too -- I'll be here already, because my project group meets at 8 Thursday
*[18:44]  GeoffMcG Xi: to the point that it intereferes with my RL work.
*[18:44]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm glad to see so much interest, too.
*[18:44]  Rebecca Berkman: We'd love to see some at-large projects get off the ground.
*[18:44]  Rebecca Berkman: For the extension class we've organized the projects into three broad topics.
*[18:44]  Sariah Chihuly: the at large projects are tough
*[18:44]  Rebecca Berkman: If you'd like us to post some info about those topics on the open moodle space, we can do that too.
*[18:44]  GeoffMcG Xi: i'd love to hear your thoughts
*[18:45]  Aphilo Aarde: There tough partly because we lack the proximity, which HLS and extension students have.
*[18:45]  Sariah Chihuly: I have been hanging in the class and doing the readings and coming here, but time for projects is tough to find -- it would be great to find dsomething manageable
*[18:45]  Rebecca Berkman: Sometimes it helps to narrow the space of possibilities a bit when trying to build a consensus or make a decision.
*[18:45]  GeoffMcG Xi: yes, exactly
*[18:45]  Aphilo Aarde: And mine is helianth@gmail.com - thanks.
*[18:45]  You: Aphilo -- not always true. At least one of my group is attending from Mexico.
*[18:45]  Rebecca Berkman: One big challenge for the at-large participant projects is for people to identify small ways that people can contribute.
*[18:45]  lIHd Sellery: I had posted some thoughts on the wiki fpr video projects but haven't che3cked ot see if there was any feedback on them
*[18:45]  Rebecca Berkman: So that people like Sariah can participate without being overwhelmed.
*[18:45]  Sariah Chihuly: there was an idea floated about copyright pages -- that is a huge project, what if we started with something small like FAQ for some of the tools.
*[18:46]  lIHd Sellery: actually met up with another at-large particiapnt in RL last week to discuss them.
*[18:46]  GeoffMcG Xi: thats why i wanted an "introduce youself" project.
*[18:46]  GeoffMcG Xi: just as a starter.
*[18:46]  Sariah Chihuly: I was on last night with a couple of other at large folk, but there are such different levels of participation.
*[18:46]  Sariah Chihuly: one had listened to lectures but not done any readings.
*[18:47]  Sariah Chihuly: I am slow -- just finished the week 3 stuff
*[18:47]  GeoffMcG Xi: because we ARE a paart of the class--charlie and becca have amply acknowledged this but the enrolled partipants dont know this yet.
*[18:47]  Dancer Morris: there is a problem with a couple of the readings... the New York Times ones
*[18:47]  Sariah Chihuly: introduce yourself -- I did that, briefly -- but again fear is the mind killer --
*[18:47]  Aphilo Aarde: That offers opportunity, as well, Sariah - varied interests - as well as challenges.
*[18:47]  Dancer Morris: when they get posted, the free membership is usually enough, but by the time people try to read them, they're more than two weeks old...
*[18:47]  Sariah Chihuly: I couldn't see nayone else doing much about introductions so I was reluctant to go into too much detail.
*[18:47]  GeoffMcG Xi: I know Kwan Bul and the drug use discussion and the rest of them
*[18:47]  Dancer Morris: and then you have to pay to read the articles
*[18:47]  Rebecca Berkman: there is not much we can do about that.
*[18:47]  lIHd Sellery: the wiki has brief introductions for some students.
*[18:48]  Rebecca Berkman: because they are the property of the NYT.
*[18:48]  Dancer Morris: maybe find other sources?
*[18:48]  Rebecca Berkman: however, those who read them can write a summary on the wiki.
*[18:48]  Aphilo Aarde: Libraries - both local and academic?
*[18:48]  You: or post summaries onto the week's pages....exactly. I don't think we knew this was a problem.
*[18:48]  Rebecca Berkman: Or you can read them at a library.
*[18:48]  Rebecca Berkman: The Harvard library system has them.
*[18:48]  Rebecca Berkman: Probably public libraries do too.
*[18:48]  Dancer Morris: including online on Hollis
*[18:48]  You: most public libraries in the U.S. will have back issues of newspapers
*[18:49]  Aphilo Aarde: Most university libraries have online access to the NYT.
*[18:49]  You: some even have electronic subscriptions
*[18:49]  Aphilo Aarde: Some public libraries probably do as well.
*[18:49]  David Spaatz: NYT is free for four issues right now which include online acess temp
*[18:49]  lIHd Sellery: you can always find them on lexis or westlaw if you have access
*[18:49]  Rebecca Berkman: Sariah, I IM'ed you.
*[18:49]  Dancer Morris: just saying that it is an issue with the web links... and so we might want to prefer articles from other sources when possible
*[18:50]  Sariah Chihuly: there are also databases from most libraries in the country you can get free nyt articles.
*[18:50]  GeoffMcG Xi: so, this seems to be the consensus from the meetings of at-large participants that i've been to:
*[18:50]  Rebecca Berkman: We try to choose open sources, but sometimes the thing we want to assign is not freely available and we don't want to sacrifice the content.
*[18:50]  GeoffMcG Xi: we feel different than the enrolled members. and i think, knowing eon, that this is unintentional.
*[18:51]  David Spaatz: I had issues with this at first
*[18:51]  David Spaatz: but then I realized that the power is n our hands to creata our own community and be a part of
*[18:51]  David Spaatz: wiki etc
*[18:52]  GeoffMcG Xi: now, having said that, i am floored by the breathtaking opportunity to once again be involved in a nesson course.
*[18:52]  Rebecca Berkman: You are not meant to feel the same as the enrolled students.
*[18:52]  Aphilo Aarde: It is fantastic.
*[18:52]  Rebecca Berkman: Our project here is to see if we can offer a class with the regular resources we have but make it open to an at-large audience.
*[18:52]  Dancer Morris: you don't have to worry about grades LOL
*[18:52]  Rebecca Berkman: And to do it in a way that is more than just offering materials.
*[18:53]  Rebecca Berkman: That offers a chance to form a community and actively participate.
*[18:53]  GeoffMcG Xi: aand i am up to the task to take on responsibility to show that i appreciate the insruction AND that we at-large folks can be productive with the knowledge.
*[18:53]  Aphilo Aarde: The chat opportunities are very valuable.
*[18:53]  Rebecca Berkman: There are some things that I wish were happening in a more fluid way.
*[18:53]  David Spaatz: true and there is a start to further the cause of open information
*[18:53]  You: like what, becca?
*[18:53]  Rebecca Berkman: For instance, I would like the enrolled students project groups to connect with members of the at large group to draw them into the projects.
*[18:54]  Aphilo Aarde: I wish we had more chat opportunities in SL - something to organize.
*[18:54]  Rebecca Berkman: Those groups have more direct guidance and supervision and are in a position to offer some places to at-large participants in their groups.
*[18:54]  Rebecca Berkman: (Both law and extension students).
*[18:54]  Rebecca Berkman: But that hasn't happend.
*[18:54]  GeoffMcG Xi: i very seldom see enrolled students in SL
*[18:54]  Rebecca Berkman: We've had pretty limited interaction between the groups.
*[18:54]  David Spaatz: are they aware of the at large member list?
*[18:54]  You: I don't think it's been a clear objective. And it's true, many HES students are only here as the course requires.
*[18:54]  Rebecca Berkman: (we have several of them here!)
*[18:54]  Rebecca Berkman: Dancer, and crislc
*[18:54]  Dancer Morris: I'm having enough trouble having interaction with the members of my own project group!
*[18:54]  GeoffMcG Xi: are they aware of our expertise?
*[18:55]  Rebecca Berkman: They are aware of teh list, but their projects haven't gotten off the ground yet.
*[18:55]  Rebecca Berkman: As dancer says, they are working on getting their own act together at this point.
*[18:55]  David Spaatz: I can be patient and let this grow organically
*[18:55]  Rebecca Berkman: We're ready to organize some way of publicizing your expertise so they can see it and contact you.
*[18:55]  GeoffMcG Xi: here's a concern: second class status.
*[18:55]  Rebecca Berkman: That would be a great thing for some at-large participant to spearhead.
*[18:56]  Rebecca Berkman: If a page like that went up and got a bunch of people/expertises listed on it, we could certainly send it out to the groups and I hope they would make use of it.
*[18:56]  You: It sounds like we need a class version of monster.com.
*[18:56]  Rebecca Berkman: Another thing I've been concerned about is the "collective action problem".
*[18:56]  David Spaatz: the mAL member list have links to our profiles
*[18:56]  GeoffMcG Xi: i'm all for the expertise project, becca.
*[18:56]  GeoffMcG Xi: im willing to commit time to it.
*[18:56]  Rebecca Berkman: Hopefully we can start to address that on Thursday.
*[18:56]  GeoffMcG Xi: we need to make it more available to the in class students
*[18:57]  Rebecca Berkman: As I say, if people from teh at-large community send me emails they'd like to post to the enrolled students or the at-large list, I'll post them.
*[18:57]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm willing to commit time to the expertise project, as well.
*[18:57]  You: sorry, David: "mAL"?
*[18:57]  Rebecca Berkman: (Or, if they are half-baked, I'll push you to expand/refine them before I post them)
*[18:57]  GeoffMcG Xi: aphilo, lets take this on as a project.
*[18:57]  David Spaatz: At Large
*[18:57]  David Spaatz: no m
*[18:58]  GeoffMcG Xi: it's small, but a start.
*[18:58]  You: geoff -- I'd like to communicate with you a bit more about that as well, especially as an HES student.
*[18:58]  Aphilo Aarde: Sounds good. I'll e-mail you soon.
*[18:58]  Sariah Chihuly: For me some of the issues with what we do here is how to protect myself -- I am more than happy to participate and offer what expertise I have within the context of the course
*[18:58]  GeoffMcG Xi: crislc, please do!!!!!!!!!!!
*[18:58]  GeoffMcG Xi: again, geoffmcg@gmail
*[18:58]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes, please crislc.
*[18:58]  Aphilo Aarde: And helianth@gmail.com
*[18:58]  GeoffMcG Xi accepted your inventory offer.
*[18:58]  Rebecca Berkman: Well maybe we can organize a project group right now!
*[18:58]  GeneKoo Li: Sorry to have missed that entire bit about the project itself, my client crashed, sounds like you've got something go ing tho!
*[18:59]  Sariah Chihuly: but as an at large member, how do I keep my information off the www?
*[18:59]  David Spaatz: mediarevolutionary@gmail.com
*[18:59]  Rebecca Berkman: Those who are here who would like to be part of teh "At-Large Leaders" project group (not exclusive of other projects)
*[18:59]  You: I think the key problem is that the projects aren't organized yet, so we have no idea what resources we need to apply to them.
*[18:59]  Sariah Chihuly: srotenberg@gmail.com
*[18:59]  David Spaatz: Y
*[18:59]  Sariah Chihuly: will you take these off the posted notes before posting the chat transcript?
*[18:59]  Rebecca Berkman: If you'd liek to follow the model of the extension students, you coudl create an SL group for yourselves (I can give you L$ if you need them) and pick a weekly in-world meeting time.
*[18:59]  Aphilo Aarde: I'd like to be part of this group.
*[19:00]  David Spaatz: Y
*[19:00]  Rebecca Berkman: Does someone know how to create a new SL group?
*[19:00]  Sariah Chihuly: I thought we were sort of doing that with the sunday at 5:30 thing?
*[19:00]  GeneKoo Li: Also teh x-school studnets are pretty much creating their own asynchronous spaces for sharing things
*[19:00]  Dancer Morris: Edit/Groups
*[19:00]  Dancer Morris: then click Create, and go from there
*[19:00]  Rebecca Berkman: Sunday at 5:30 would be a fine meeting time.
*[19:01]  Sariah Chihuly: would we get participation from you or some of the other students?
*[19:01]  Rebecca Berkman: But I think you might consider keeping this group to a specific, committed membership so that you can make a strategy and execute it.
*[19:01]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes, I can create the group.
*[19:01]  Sariah Chihuly: and would this mean we would be less welcome at office hours you have in sl for your students?
*[19:01]  David Spaatz: send me an invite
*[19:01]  You: Gene, that's an important point. We've been much more productive asynchronously, than the few times we've gathered in-world.
*[19:01]  lIHd Sellery: please send me an invite as well
*[19:01]  GeoffMcG Xi: i'm in, though i wonder about the "leadership" xcliusivity.
*[19:01]  GeneKoo Li: I would underscore Rebecca's point that commitment to the group will be very important
*[19:02]  GeoffMcG Xi: i have no l$
*[19:02]  Rebecca Berkman: In this case, your project would be to get the at-large participant projects off the ground by doing a little organizing of teh at-large participants and setting up a page that advertises at-large participant expertise that enrolled student groups ca
*[19:02]  Rebecca Berkman: n look at.
*[19:02]  David Spaatz: and we will have an opportunity to flech out at large issues
*[19:02]  Rebecca Berkman: Geoff, I am giving you some L$
*[19:02]  Dancer Morris: you don't need any L$ to join the group, Geoff, only to create it
*[19:02]  You: geoff -- I think that may be more about accountability than exclusivity
*[19:02]  GeoffMcG Xi: ok.
*[19:02]  Rebecca Berkman: I agree with crislc.
*[19:02]  Rebecca Berkman: No need to be exclusive.
*[19:02]  GeoffMcG Xi: can you help me create the group with those $?
*[19:02]  You: the enrolled students are accountable to the profs, and to each other
*[19:03]  Dancer Morris: Geoff... first go to the Edit menu, and pick Groups
*[19:03]  Rebecca Berkman: But you want to keep the group manageable so that you can actualy get stuff done.
*[19:03]  You: and we recognize that, because we've all paid US$ for tuition
*[19:03]  Mobile Widget is Offline
*[19:03]  GeoffMcG Xi: ok.
*[19:03]  Dancer Morris: Click the Create button
*[19:03]  Rebecca Berkman: If you succeed at getting the at-large participants engaged in doing projects that will be an amazing accomplishment.
*[19:03]  GeoffMcG Xi: done
*[19:03]  Rebecca Berkman: It will help all of us prove one of the basic hypotheses of teh course.
*[19:03]  Rebecca Berkman: that this open education idea really can work!
*[19:03]  Dancer Morris: Give your group a name and then click OK
*[19:03]  GeoffMcG Xi: i know, becca.
*[19:04]  Dancer Morris: After it's created, go the Members and Roles tab of the group window to invite people in
*[19:04]  Rebecca Berkman: As you know, this is one of my main goals for the course, so I'll be happy to help in any way that I can.
*[19:04]  GeoffMcG Xi: suggestions on a name?
*[19:04]  You: becca -- even as an enrolled student, and from chatting with a few of the HLS students during tours, I think that the goals are a little unclear
*[19:04]  You: ~goals of the course
*[19:04]  David Spaatz: at large is, lets say, lacking pinache
*[19:04]  You: is that going to improve when we get the projects going?
*[19:04]  Sariah Chihuly: what about living large?
*[19:05]  Dancer Morris: The group name can't be changed once you create it... but the titles that the members wear can be
*[19:05]  You: or is there a disconnect between how the students feel, and what it looks like from your broader perspective?
*[19:05]  GeoffMcG Xi: i dont want to alienate with a group called leaaders.
*[19:05]  Travis Ripley: mhm.....
*[19:05]  GeoffMcG Xi: i like living large
*[19:05]  GeoffMcG Xi: or, at laarge.
*[19:05]  David Spaatz: should we go somewhere and talk this over?
*[19:05]  Travis Ripley: ok.
*[19:05]  GeneKoo Li: *[Completely off point - is there any way to restore a previous body shape if you, um, didn't save it properly?]
*[19:05]  Rebecca Berkman: living large is nice!
*[19:06]  Dancer Morris: if you didn't save it, no...
*[19:06]  Dancer Morris: you modified your shape rather than creating a new one?
*[19:06]  GeneKoo Li: *[ Wow well there goes the dangers of experimentation... that's about an hour I spent creating my odl shape ]
*[19:06]  GeoffMcG Xi: ok: CyberOne--Living At-Large
*[19:06]  Rebecca Berkman: crislc, was that question for me?
*[19:06]  GeoffMcG Xi: how's that?
*[19:06]  You: yes, do you want a repost?
*[19:06]  Rebecca Berkman: i guess i'm not sure what it feels like from the student perspective?
*[19:06]  GeneKoo Li: *[ No I put on this chicken outfit that had a body shape as part of it, now that seems to have taken over my body shape and I can't remove it ]
*[19:06]  Rebecca Berkman: .
*[19:06]  David Spaatz: should we go somewhere to talk about it?
*[19:07]  Dancer Morris: you can't remove a shape - you have to put on another one
*[19:07]  GeneKoo Li: right, ergo my distress at my current state
*[19:07]  Travis Ripley: om gi am making a typion gnoise
*[19:07]  Aphilo Aarde: SL froze.
*[19:07]  You: it sounds like you have a very clear idea of goals for the course, and some of the HES and HLS students I've talked with don't share that feeling.
*[19:07]  Dancer Morris: you should have one though... in your clothing folder, there is probably a sub-folder of "Male Shape & Outfit"
*[19:07]  lIHd Sellery: does anyone if there is a podcast for the NPR show infinite mind that was referenced ealier?
*[19:07]  Sariah Chihuly: I don't think sl froze, your computer might have.
*[19:07]  Dancer Morris: Put on the shape you'll find there
*[19:07]  GeoffMcG Xi: im not surprised, becca/
*[19:07]  Travis Ripley: are you guys having a real class???
*[19:08]  Rebecca Berkman: I would very much like to be transparent about my goals for teh course.
*[19:08]  Dancer Morris: Skins are the same way -- you can't take off a skin, only put on another one
*[19:08]  Rebecca Berkman: It is a challenging taks.
*[19:08]  Rebecca Berkman: Perhaps I don't express myself clearly enoguh.
*[19:08]  You: oh, i wasn't suggesting that you had a secret agenda :-)
*[19:08]  Rebecca Berkman: And the ideas are a bit abstract, so it can be difficult.
*[19:08]  Sariah Chihuly: I don't like the at-large so much -- maybe cyber one, team random?
*[19:08]  GeoffMcG Xi: ok, folks,. CyberOne--Living At-Large.
*[19:08]  Dancer Morris: Suggestion -- make a copy of that "Male Shape & Outfit" folder
*[19:08]  GeneKoo Li: hmm, just I didn't save my old one... well anyway enough distraction from the official conversation
*[19:08]  Aphilo Aarde: You continue to articulate the goals for this class very clearly, Rebecca.
*[19:08]  Sariah Chihuly: since we are sort of self selected in a pretty random fashion.
*[19:08]  GeoffMcG Xi: nowthat i have a name, what next?
*[19:08]  David Spaatz: I don't like at large either
*[19:08]  David Spaatz: how about something reflecting open information
*[19:09]  Rebecca Berkman: (now i think you invite people)
*[19:09]  Rebecca Berkman: Well, I can try to state my goals.
*[19:09]  You: for example: maybe we need a goals section on the wiki. I don't mean that we should go edit the page right now, but that it might be easy to miss when you do share them.
*[19:09]  Rebecca Berkman: If that would be helpful.
*[19:09]  Dancer Morris: yes -- once you have a group, inviting people to it is the next step
*[19:09]  You: it would probably help /me/ :-)
*[19:09]  Rebecca Berkman: Ah, well the main time that I shared them was in the first few lectures.
*[19:09]  You: class video lectures?
*[19:09]  GeoffMcG Xi: David, can you describe you objection to the name?
*[19:10]  Rebecca Berkman: Basically, I suggested that this was going to be a project-based course in which we all try to make arguments in teh court of public opinion.
*[19:10]  David Spaatz: ambiguous
*[19:10]  Rebecca Berkman: for me, my project is teh course itslef.
*[19:10]  Sariah Chihuly: finding a new business model that allows for some profit while still maintaining open source as much as possible?
*[19:10]  GeneKoo Li: "CyberOne Open Access"?
*[19:10]  David Spaatz: dig open access
*[19:10]  Rebecca Berkman: and my argument is that open education can succeed on a model similar to the one we are using.
*[19:10]  You: I second David --- I like that one
*[19:10]  David Spaatz: that is the thing for me - open available
*[19:10]  Sariah Chihuly: I do too.
*[19:10]  You: becca -- how do you measure "success"?
*[19:11]  GeoffMcG Xi: how about: CyberOne: the Open COmmunity" ?
*[19:11]  Rebecca Berkman: that is, that if we provide interesting content that is situated in a way that makes sense for an at-large audience, the audience will exist and the experience will be worthwhile, and the brand of Harvard will be improved, not diluted.
*[19:11]  You: how do we know that we are achieving that goal?
*[19:11]  GeoffMcG Xi: CyberOne: OpenAccess?
*[19:11]  Rebecca Berkman: it si hard to evaluate the success, but there are some measures we can use.
*[19:11]  Dancer Morris: I've got to go have some RL time... my eyes are glazing over
*[19:11]  Rebecca Berkman: For instance, it is notable that our lectures are being downloaded an average of 300 times and over 80 people have voluntarily signed up for our mailing list.
*[19:11]  You: heh...dancer, I hear another argument for voice clients for SL :-)
*[19:12]  Rebecca Berkman: htat is numbers sort of evaluation.
*[19:12]  GeoffMcG Xi: how's the name?
*[19:12]  GeoffMcG Xi: ok?
*[19:12]  David Spaatz: eval - downloads v participation
*[19:12]  Rebecca Berkman: We also are trying to do feedback with the different groups (though we haven't done one yet with the at-large, which we should do!)
*[19:12]  You: again, second David
*[19:12]  GeoffMcG Xi: voice now or hold your peace?
*[19:12]  Rebecca Berkman: to get some qualitative feedback.
*[19:12]  David Spaatz: but the concepts are being disseminated into the society - valuable at face
*[19:12]  Rebecca Berkman: So those are the basic measures.
*[19:13]  Rebecca Berkman: the key thing is that that is *my* goal for the course.
*[19:13]  Rebecca Berkman: my argument in the court of public opinion.
*[19:13]  Sariah Chihuly: i have been using voip in my teaching -- I must say it feels very old web to go back to typing.
*[19:13]  GeneKoo Li: btw I didn't want to have it in the record from before that I was dissatisfied with the presentation on Thursday
*[19:13]  Rebecca Berkman: but it fits into larger learnign goals for the students.
*[19:13]  GeneKoo Li: I was actually really thrilled by it, but I can't help in most situations but look at things somewhat critically
*[19:13]  You: what kind of larger goals do you envision, becca?
*[19:14]  Rebecca Berkman: well, the learning goals have to do with teh specific issues we're covering.
*[19:14]  GeneKoo Li: (Anyway, just sneaking an amendment into the bill, as it were...)
*[19:14]  GeoffMcG Xi: ok at-large leaders. CyberOne: Open Access is about to be our group.
*[19:14]  Rebecca Berkman: we want you think about the elements of a persuasive argument.
*[19:14]  David Spaatz: sweet!
*[19:14]  Sariah Chihuly: good work Geoff, thanks.
*[19:14]  You: gene, I enjoyed the content (although I did find it hard to read so many threads) -- I thought the presentation was very good
*[19:14]  Aphilo Aarde: One of the results of such a course is innovation - one doesn't know what will take shape.
*[19:14]  GeoffMcG Xi: hearing no objections.....
*[19:14]  David Spaatz: second
*[19:14]  Rebecca Berkman: (empathic argument in order to reach your audience, new technologies to try to disseminate it without a lot of capital)
*[19:14]  Sariah Chihuly: I want to play with scratch -- and wish we could.
*[19:14]  Rebecca Berkman: You can!
*[19:14]  GeoffMcG Xi: so ordered.
*[19:15]  Rebecca Berkman: Enjoy!
*[19:15]  Sariah Chihuly: I thought we had to be in the course officially eithe hls or hes?
*[19:15] {Username & Password removed by editor}
*[19:15]  Rebecca Berkman: you are in the course.
*[19:15]  David Spaatz: low capital investment transcends historical obstacles to open info
*[19:15]  Rebecca Berkman: we just didn't want to post it to the whole world on the web.
*[19:15]  Rebecca Berkman: but ifyou're participating you, can use scratch!
*[19:15]  Rebecca Berkman: Ok, to continue.
*[19:15]  GeoffMcG Xi: dear friends, CyberOne: Open Access is now in business.
*[19:16]  Rebecca Berkman: We also have learning goals in terms of thinking about the structure of our economy and our culture.
*[19:16]  You: please do, becca :-)
*[19:16]  Sariah Chihuly: In the lecture notes I read it said we had special permission to use prior to release, I guess I assumed that would mean you couldn't just go to the website and begin?
*[19:16]  Rebecca Berkman: We are making an argument to you about balance in our society.
*[19:16]  Alan Lederberg: i'd like to use scratch as well
*[19:16]  GeoffMcG Xi: please join!!!!!!
*[19:17]  Rebecca Berkman: that now that we have the means to publish and communicate at practically no cost, people with non-market motivations and not much capital can cooperate in loosely connected networks to produce things that rival what the industrialized economy produces.
*[19:17]  Aphilo Aarde: But there's also a shaping of educational culture inherent in the goals of the class, which this 'practice' of SL makes anew.
*[19:17]  Rebecca Berkman: Here's we're talking about information goods, not real goods, which require capital.
*[19:17]  Sariah Chihuly: I am getting the argument about balance -- although I am still back with the red hats and sorry I missed that office hours.
*[19:17]  Rebecca Berkman: So in this case, teh stuff we talk about in class are examples of this.
*[19:17]  You: I'm sorry Aphilo, I couldn't quite get that
*[19:17]  Rebecca Berkman: Wikipedia is a great example.
*[19:17]  Yvette Kumsung: Oh dear, someone has gone under a gender change
*[19:17]  Rebecca Berkman: It is a huge resource that rivals Britannica in coverage and accuracy.
*[19:18]  Rebecca Berkman: And it is created by volunteer efforts and is freely available.
*[19:18]  Rebecca Berkman: Tomorrow's lecture is on political blogs.
*[19:18]  Aphilo Aarde: That this class is a kind of cultural 'practice' which is shaping an approach to education - a completely new kind of course at Harvard.
*[19:18]  Rebecca Berkman: That is another amazing example.
*[19:18]  Sariah Chihuly: wikipedia is a great example -- it is also a great challenge to the world (sounds grandiose when put that way) but it really puts it out there that you need to keep thinking
*[19:18]  GeneKoo Li: Yet if information goods become almost negligably cheap to produce, the value of filtering and credentialing - all provinces of human relations - become all the more important
*[19:18]  Rebecca Berkman: In that case, bloggers who did not have any media power have been able to really sway political debates and the fortunes of politicians.
*[19:19]  Travis Ripley: im hacking watch me run
*[19:19]  David Spaatz: great book - we the media
*[19:19]  Yvette Kumsung: Our current president won because of Internet power
*[19:19]  David Spaatz: and the revolution will not be televised - trippi
*[19:19]  Travis Ripley: i got the fly walk exploit
*[19:19]  Sariah Chihuly: that if you don't keep thinking you can't be sure of anything you find/see/read.
*[19:19]  You: agreed. I work for a company whose primary value is in analysing and filtering available information.
*[19:19]  GeneKoo Li: So part of the skills / learning I hope you'll take away from the practice of the projects themselves is how to enact and enable those kinds of networks
*[19:19]  Yvette Kumsung: Most people regret it now though
*[19:19]  Rebecca Berkman: the connection of this back to my project and yours is the basic idea that the way to prove that the non-market forces can balance the market ones it to get out there and do it!
*[19:19]  GeoffMcG Xi: becca, would there be any way to integrate some (if not all) of the at large members into the in class discussions?
*[19:19]  Rebecca Berkman: if we keep doign it, it will no longer be something we have to "prove", it will just be obvious.
*[19:20]  Rebecca Berkman: Which class discussions do you mean Geoff?
*[19:20]  Sariah Chihuly: Travis, you are very distracting.
*[19:20]  GeoffMcG Xi: the political blog discussion.
*[19:20]  You: i can sort of see that, becca -- that if we practice it, we won't need to preach it (because it will be clearly evident)
*[19:20]  Rebecca Berkman: Ah, the political blog discussion will be done in lecture.
*[19:20]  GeoffMcG Xi: xactly
*[19:20]  Rebecca Berkman: So it will be available to everyone on the video.
*[19:21]  GeoffMcG Xi: i know.
*[19:21]  Rebecca Berkman: But for those, we don't have a way to integrate more people because we aren't webcasting.
*[19:21]  Aphilo Aarde: I wonder if there is a way that at-large participants might participate somehow in the lectures, in conjunction with mIRC, for example, in real time.
*[19:21]  Rebecca Berkman: So people can't participate in real time.
*[19:21]  GeoffMcG Xi: buit that means we can access it, but in class cannot access us.
*[19:21]  Rebecca Berkman: However, we have an idea for what we'd like to do.
*[19:21]  Rebecca Berkman: That is, we'
*[19:21]  Rebecca Berkman: d
*[19:21]  Rebecca Berkman: like to use office hour times like this one to have these discussions with at-large participants and extension students.
*[19:21]  You: HES has the same problem...I took it as a part of the course. Eon mentioned in one of the lectures that his primary audience was the HLS class.
*[19:21]  Yvette Kumsung: I think there are aspects of the class that are not interactive, perhaps intentionally and inevitablly
*[19:22]  David Spaatz: what does d mean
*[19:22]  Sariah Chihuly: so maybe one of our projects would be to figure out a way in which we could meaningfully participate in the class.
*[19:22]  You: Geoff, is that what you meant as a "second class" problem?
*[19:22]  GeoffMcG Xi: dear friends, the CyberOne: Open Accesas group is funtional. Please Join.
*[19:22]  You have offered friendship to GeoffMcG Xi
*[19:22]  Rebecca Berkman: I don't think this really is a second class issues.
*[19:22]  Rebecca Berkman: That was an unfortunate way that my father said that in lecture.
*[19:22]  You: i don't feel that way about it, but I wasn't clear what Geoff meant
*[19:22]  Sariah Chihuly: I understand that if you are paying for a hls class, you might not want to share your classroom with a bunch of riffraff -- but
*[19:22]  Rebecca Berkman: He meant that we have to address each audience as a primary audience.
*[19:23]  Rebecca Berkman: So here we are addressing you as a primary audience.
*[19:23]  David Spaatz: 2nd class dilemma can be transcended through active participation - a challenge
*[19:23]  Rebecca Berkman: In lecture we address the law students as a primary audience.
*[19:23]  David Spaatz: in a good way
*[19:23]  You: right. I'd be distracted/confused if you typed answers in SL to respond to HLS students sitting next to you in lab.
*[19:23]  Rebecca Berkman: But we can bring the extension and at-large students into those discussions by having them ourselves in SL.
*[19:23]  Sariah Chihuly: there may be a way, once we see what kind of expertise we have, to figure out where we might fit.
*[19:23]  Sariah Chihuly: It might make sense to hold one hour of lecture in the sl room?
*[19:23]  Rebecca Berkman: In fact, this is a lot more discussion than the law students ever get!
*[19:23]  Yvette Kumsung: But I do feel that this course is less of a law course than I expected, though perhaps it is a good thing
*[19:24]  You: second, yvette. on both parts.
*[19:24]  David Spaatz: true
*[19:24]  Rebecca Berkman: (this course is not about laws but about the abstract concept of law--how we regulate ourselves as a society in cyberspace)
*[19:24]  Aphilo Aarde: That's a good idea, Sariah.
*[19:24]  Sariah Chihuly: well, I am guessing that some of the reading is pretty legal -- I haven't done it all, haven't had time.
*[19:25]  You: becca -- off my main point, but I do want to mention how much I appreciate the extra discussion. I think that there are times when it's made class more difficult, though. For example, the capacity of anyone to interrupt Gene's presentation.
*[19:25]  Sariah Chihuly: but I would love to have some place to discuss some of this stuff.
*[19:25]  Yvette Kumsung: I admit, however, that I did feel somewhat a peripheral part of the class because our syllabus is different
*[19:25]  GeoffMcG Xi: ok, let me clarify the second class comment, for i meant no insult to eon. rather i meant that some people feel that we are another class, a separate audience, and in so we are receiving a different education.
*[19:25]  lIHd Sellery: I think it's nice to get away from black letter law everyone onece in a while and talk about abstract ideas ans policy
*[19:25]  Rebecca Berkman: you are certainly receiving a different education.
*[19:25]  David Spaatz: we are
*[19:25]  Rebecca Berkman: and there are different needs for the audiences.
*[19:25]  GeneKoo Li: In fact I can't imagine any way in which that wouldn't be the case
*[19:25]  Yvette Kumsung: That's what I meant by "inevitably"
*[19:25]  Rebecca Berkman: we try to target the class to each audience appropriately.
*[19:26]  David Spaatz: but we have the power to make that different, not less
*[19:26]  You: so the goals you mentioend for this part of the class -- do those apply to the HLS students as well?
*[19:26]  You: (to becca)
*[19:26]  Rebecca Berkman: with the at-large audience that is particularly difficult because the audience is so diverse in backgrounds, locations, and time available/amount of participation.
*[19:26]  Sariah Chihuly: maybe one of the issues is that the "needs" of the at-large folk isn't explicit -- and it may not even be the same from person to person.
*[19:26]  David Spaatz: the commute would kill me
*[19:26]  You: I think the same may be true for HES students.
*[19:26]  David Spaatz: different needs - a challenge to address
*[19:26]  Rebecca Berkman: this is quite an experiment to try to do with the at-large audience, so inevitably we are making some missteps.
*[19:26]  You: (about Sariah's comment on different needs)
*[19:26]  GeneKoo Li: ... in some ways it's true for the HLS students too
*[19:27]  Sariah Chihuly: I have NO COMPLAINTS -- this is the most fun I have had thinking in many years.
*[19:27]  Rebecca Berkman: yes, the overall goals are the same for all of the segments of the class.
*[19:27]  David Spaatz: a "one goal" for the three segments together
*[19:27]  Rebecca Berkman: we want you all to think of yourselves as potential agents of change and to get engaged in the project of trying to create a change of some sort.
*[19:27]  Travis Ripley: DISTACTION
*[19:27]  Rebecca Berkman: In the span of a semester, the change will inevitably be small.
*[19:28]  Rebecca Berkman: But success is not the measure we are using.
*[19:28]  Travis Ripley: DISTRACTIONS
*[19:28]  GeoffMcG Xi: becca and gene, let me say, that sespte the challenges facing us at large participants, i think it is remarkable to ba included in the project.
*[19:28]  Yvette Kumsung: /hit Travis
*[19:28]  Travis Ripley: YOU GUYS GO TO HARVARD???
*[19:28]  GeoffMcG Xi: i for one feel very much included.
*[19:28]  David Spaatz: just hit mute resident in chat history
*[19:28]  Rebecca Berkman: Travis, I am going to have to ban you if you don't move out of the area or stay a bit more still.
*[19:28]  GeoffMcG Xi: included iun a different way, but included.
*[19:28]  Sariah Chihuly: I have been an agent of change already, in some small ways. I have sent your videos out on my campus and gotten several people interested in seeing more. We have started a conversation about wiki here, and a campus myspace account.
*[19:28]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes, this a remarkable learning opportunity.
*[19:29]  GeoffMcG Xi: no
*[19:29]  David Spaatz: mind blowing and hopefully - viral
*[19:29]  GeoffMcG Xi: i did
*[19:29]  GeoffMcG Xi: but graduated
*[19:29]  GeoffMcG Xi: virul indeed!
*[19:29]  Rebecca Berkman: So the goal is to envision what kind of society you want to live in and to grapple with the challenges inherent in trying to make society mirror that goal.
*[19:30]  GeoffMcG Xi: im a noob!
*[19:30]  Yvette Kumsung: what's a noob -_-
*[19:30]  GeoffMcG Xi: new bie
*[19:30]  GeoffMcG Xi: someone just introduced to Viirtual WOrdlds.
*[19:30]  GeoffMcG Xi: WORLDS
*[19:30]  GeoffMcG Xi: sorry
*[19:30]  You: and although I brought up this confusion, I have found this to be the most engaging HES course I've taken so far.
*[19:31]  Rebecca Berkman: well i think there are two other threads I'd be interested in picking up if people are interested.
*[19:31]  You: okay, I think I understand the "Grand Strategy" for the course, and how our projects complement that
*[19:31]  You: I'd be interested in other threads :-). I wish we had multi-threaded chat so that we could keep them more separated...
*[19:31]  Rebecca Berkman: 1) the discussion about what makes SL different from other Internet communication technologies we coudl be usign (and whether it is better or worse)
*[19:31]  You: I'm still a little confused on measures of success, becca
*[19:31]  Sariah Chihuly: I am going to have to take off pretty soon, my first life is calling.
*[19:32]  Rebecca Berkman: 2) the three hats problem.
*[19:32]  Rebecca Berkman: Maybe we'll save 3 hats for when Sariah can be here, since she requested it.
*[19:32]  Sariah Chihuly: oh no -- not the hats -- I would really like to hear about that.
*[19:32]  Sariah Chihuly: oh thanks Rebecca -- I would very much appreciate it.
*[19:32]  David Spaatz: am I oversimplifying when I say that I would just take the hat off and look?
*[19:32]  Sariah Chihuly: I wish I could stay.
*[19:33]  You: if you did that Dave, you don't get to marry the prince/ss
*[19:33]  David Spaatz: perhaps I dont gettit
*[19:33]  David Spaatz: oh, missed that part
*[19:33]  GeoffMcG Xi: sariah--join the gorup!
*[19:34]  Rebecca Berkman: well, i won't stop people from discussing 2 hats, but maybe we can wait on it and try it at an at-large meeting soon.
*[19:34]  GeoffMcG Xi: folks at large, the group is public--sorry for the delay.
*[19:34]  Sariah Chihuly: oops, how do I join the group?
*[19:34]  GeoffMcG Xi: go to search.
*[19:34]  GeoffMcG Xi: type in CyberOne: Open Access
*[19:34]  You: geoff -- which is it? OpenAccess or at large?
*[19:35]  Sariah Chihuly: ok, found it, now how do I join, sorry for the dumb question.
*[19:36]  You: geoff, the Join button seems to be disabled for me...
*[19:36]  GeoffMcG Xi: how do i enable it?
*[19:36]  You: heh... beats me :-)
*[19:36]  GeoffMcG Xi: lol
*[19:36]  You: i saw that there's another "at large" group, founded by someone named Ellie
*[19:36]  Rebecca Berkman: you can enable it by right clicking on yourself and choosing groups.
*[19:36]  David Spaatz: Geoff - open enrollment checked?
*[19:37]  Rebecca Berkman: but as long as you are a member of the group, you will get messages sent to the group.
*[19:37]  GeoffMcG Xi: i just clicked on actiivate. try now.
*[19:37]  David Spaatz: not yet
*[19:38]  GeoffMcG Xi: ok. let me try something else; OPEN ENROLLMENT?????
*[19:38]  David Spaatz: is there an admin - check open enrollment?
*[19:38]  Rebecca Berkman: hmm, i think there is a way to invite people to a group...
*[19:38]  David Spaatz: in the window, there is a box - owner can check
*[19:38]  Sariah Chihuly: also you might need to publish it?
*[19:39]  Rebecca Berkman: if nothing else, you can add each other to your friends lists so you can figure this problem out later...
*[19:39]  Rebecca Berkman: to add a friend just right click them and choose "Add friend"
*[19:40]  Sariah Chihuly: ahh. ok. i just got a join message and joined!
*[19:40]  Rebecca Berkman: great!
*[19:40]  Sariah Chihuly: hallelujah and thanks very much.
*[19:40]  Rebecca Berkman: could you invite me too?
*[19:40]  GeoffMcG Xi: no. of course!!!!!!!!!!!
*[19:40]  Bryan Snookums: hey
*[19:40]  Bryan Snookums: whats up?
*[19:41]  Sariah Chihuly: ok, now I am really going. sorry. sounds like the discussion is going to get even better.
*[19:41]  Bryan Snookums: u guys r noobs
*[19:41]  You: have a good one, Sariah!
*[19:41]  Rebecca Berkman: Hi bryan.
*[19:41]  GeneKoo Li: by sariah
*[19:41]  Rebecca Berkman: Yeah, most of us are newbs.
*[19:41]  Aphilo Aarde: Bye sariah
*[19:41]  Bryan Snookums: that was such uber pwnage
*[19:41]  Bryan Snookums: bye sarah
*[19:41]  Bryan Snookums: nothing
*[19:41]  Bryan Snookums: :)
*[19:42]  GeneKoo Li: This is like an object lesson for a project...
*[19:42]  David Spaatz: This has been great. Communicate and ill check the wiki
*[19:42]  Rebecca Berkman: Bryan and Travis, you can stay but please be nice.
*[19:42]  Rebecca Berkman: OK, unfortunately RL calls.
*[19:43]  You: becca, i do want to hear about thread #1 later. are you holding office hours at all before next week?
*[19:43]  Rebecca Berkman: This week on Thursday at 9pm I'll b ehere.
*[19:43]  Rebecca Berkman: I'll do some office horus and some work with the at-large group.
*[19:43]  Rebecca Berkman: One sec travis.
*[19:44]  Rebecca Berkman: Geoff, you or someone else will send an announcemnet to me to post to the at-large list about Thursday's meeting?
*[19:44]  Rebecca Berkman: Travis, we're studying Internet law.
*[19:44]  Rebecca Berkman: But in a bit of an abstract way.
*[19:44]  Rebecca Berkman: We're studying the way rules and norms are created in cyberspace.
*[19:44]  Travis Ripley: like, piracy and censsor ship?
*[19:44]  Travis Ripley: *
*[19:44]  Rebecca Berkman: yes, a bit.
*[19:45]  GeoffMcG Xi: yes, becca, i'll send a message about the at-large expertise
*[19:45]  You: geoff, did you get the IM I sent you?
*[19:45]  Rebecca Berkman: But less about punishment and more about how we build a society that reflects our values.
*[19:45]  Travis Ripley: sweet.
*[19:46]  Travis Ripley: im gonna go as soon as snookums gets back to his computer.
*[19:46]  Rebecca Berkman: Basically, looking at the idea that all the little people out there have a lot of opinions and desires and that we get steamrolled by big government and media.
*[19:46]  GeoffMcG Xi: cris, i sent an im
*[19:46]  Rebecca Berkman: But the 'Net gives us a shot at pushing back against it.
*[19:46]  Travis Ripley: kinda like today when google, bought youtube, a very independent site.
*[19:46]  GeoffMcG Xi: becca, lets talk off line. check my email.
*[19:46]  Travis Ripley: they bought it for like 1.6 mill.
*[19:47]  Rebecca Berkman: ok geoff.
*[19:47]  GeoffMcG Xi: will someone post this convo on the Wiki?
*[19:47]  Travis Ripley: not it.
*[19:47]  Travis Ripley: lol
*[19:47]  Travis Ripley: later
*[19:47]  You: i don't have time to clean it up, but I can do a raw dump
*[19:47]  You: removing the scratch password, of course
*[19:47]  You: can someone else commit to helping with the cleanup of the raw log?
*[19:47]  Bryan Snookums: k
*[19:48]  GeoffMcG Xi: I'd leave it up to individual members to remove personal info
*[19:48]  You: oh, I meant making it more readable
*[19:49]  You: There's a lot of lines of text. the best I can do is find-and-replace to add the wiki markup for newlines
*[19:49]  Rebecca Berkman: maybe if we wiki it, it can be a group project to clean it up.
*[19:49]  You: otherwise, you get one long string
*[19:49]  Aphilo Aarde: Ok.
*[19:49]  Rebecca Berkman: crislc, i think there is an office hours section on the wiki that Aphilo created.
*[19:49]  Rebecca Berkman: you can post it there.
*[19:50]  You: I saw the link, at the bottom
*[19:50]  Rebecca Berkman: ok, i really have to go now.
*[19:50]  Rebecca Berkman: Goodnight all and thanks for a wonderful conversation.
*[19:50]  Rebecca Berkman: this was great.
*[19:50]  You: have a good one, becca! thanks for putting up with the incessant questioning :-)
*[19:50]  GeoffMcG Xi: aphilo, i just found you. join please!
*[19:50]  Aphilo Aarde: Good night, Rebecca, and thank you.
*[19:50]  Steve Lapointe: Good Night!
*[19:50]  Rebecca Berkman is Offline
*[19:50]  GeoffMcG Xi: night becca
*[19:50]  Aphilo Aarde: I just joined. Thanks, Geoff.
*[19:51]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm heading out too.
*[19:51]  Aphilo Aarde: If you want help cleaning up the transcript crislc, let me know.
*[19:51]  You: definitely, aphilo
*[19:51]  You: check the wiki, it'll be up there shortly
*[19:52]  Aphilo Aarde: Good night.
*[19:52]  GeneKoo Li: Good night al
*[19:52]  GeneKoo Li: l
*[19:52]  GeoffMcG Xi: thanks crislc. i'll help with the clean up and post a meetin time for thursday/. 9pm.
*[19:52]  GeoffMcG Xi: night gene. thanks
*[19:52]  Aphilo Aarde: Good night, Gene.
*[19:52]  You: great, thanks Geoff. I'll contact you via email (also shortly)
*[19:52]  Aphilo Aarde: crislc, what's your e-mail address?
*[19:53]  GeoffMcG Xi: splendid
*[19:53]  Aphilo Aarde accepted your inventory offer.
*[19:53]  Aphilo Aarde: Thanks.
*[19:54]  Aphilo Aarde: Bye.
*[19:54]  GeneKoo Li: Good night all
*[19:54]  You: 'nite gene
*[19:54]  You: alright, I don't know if we got it earlier, but do I have permission from those remaining to post the chat log?
*[19:55]  GeoffMcG Xi: yes and the rest of us will edit what seems appropriate.
*[19:55]  You: heh...well, that was easy. I guess the key is waiting until everyone leaves
*[19:55]  GeoffMcG Xi: hahah
*[19:55]  You: alright, I'm going to get that up online