Transcript for Jan. 18th
From Hearo's chat History:
[17:01] Andy Abrahamson: maybe he's the secret star witness
[17:01] Rebecca Berkman: Ok, welcome everyone.
[17:01] Eon Berkman: my avatar is being unresponsive
[17:01] Rebecca Berkman: We are making a couple of small changes from last night.
[17:01] Rebecca Berkman: We will have the witnesses in the chair at the end of this table on my right.
[17:02] Rebecca Berkman: Opposing counsel will sit next to Eon and stand up and say "objection" when an objection is registered.
[17:02] No room to sit here, try another spot.
[17:02] Rebecca Berkman: Eon, I think the sim is running slow because so many of us are here.
[17:02] Rebecca Berkman: We will have to buy more land soon!
[17:02] GeoffMcG Xi: ahem
[17:02] GeoffMcG Xi: rub it in.
[17:02] Rebecca Berkman: Hear ye, hear ye, this court is now in session.
[17:03] Daisyblue Hefferman: just watch what auction you buy it at Rebecca lol
[17:03] Eon Berkman: we will proceed with the cross examination of mr. bragg
[17:03] Rebecca Berkman: Can we please have witness Bragg in the witness stand for cross-examination.
[17:04] Chinadoll Lulu: (sorry we are not doing it at the court area?)
[17:04] Rebecca Berkman: (we did it here instead -- the courtroom still needs work...)
[17:04] Eon Berkman: is counsel for linden labs prepared to x
[17:04] Necker Philgarlic: Yes, your honor
[17:05] Rebecca Berkman: Can counsel for Bragg please move to the seat next to Eon.
[17:05] Eon Berkman: Necker, please begin
[17:05] Necker Philgarlic: Mr. Bragg, what do you do for a living?
[17:05] GeoffMcG Xi: I am an attorney in Pennsylvania.
[17:06] Necker Philgarlic: So you work with lots of documents?
[17:06] GeoffMcG Xi: and clients, and judges, and other attorneys, so yes.
[17:06] Necker Philgarlic: Mr. Bragg, have you ever traveled to a foreign country?
[17:06] GeoffMcG Xi: yes, i believe i have, mr philgarlic.
[17:06] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: Objection.
[17:06] Necker Philgarlic: What country?
[17:07] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: Relevance.
[17:07] Necker Philgarlic: your honor,
[17:07] Eon Berkman: overruled, bor the moment
[17:07] Eon Berkman: we will see if he connects this up
[17:07] Necker Philgarlic: which country?
[17:07] Eon Berkman: continuee
[17:07] GeoffMcG Xi: i believe i went to school in australia.
[17:07] Necker Philgarlic: Did you exchange US $ for Australian dollars?
[17:08] GeoffMcG Xi: yes, i would have had to in order to eat.
[17:08] Necker Philgarlic: While you were there, did you believe your rights were governed by US Law or Australian law?
[17:09] GeoffMcG Xi: i believe i was subject to australian law for some matters, US law for others, and international law for yet other matters still.
[17:09] Necker Philgarlic: You believe you have a property right in your SL land, correct?
[17:10] GeoffMcG Xi: i believe, based on the statements made by the owner of Linden Research, that I have property interests in my land, yes.
[17:10] Necker Philgarlic: And you want to enforce those rights?
[17:10] GeoffMcG Xi: yes
[17:10] Necker Philgarlic: You believe you should be able to avail yourself of the power of the courts--especially the federal courts--to ensure that Linden Labs respects those rights?
[17:11] GeoffMcG Xi: yes, that is correct.
[17:11] Necker Philgarlic: Do you understand that federal courts are set up by the United States Constitution?
[17:11] GeoffMcG Xi: well, thats not entirely true. the US supreme court is set up by the constitution. the lower federal courts are a creation of the COngress.
[17:12] Necker Philgarlic: Do you believe that the United States Constitution establishes the government and is the source of rights that protect us?
[17:12] GeoffMcG Xi: i believe the people are the source.
[17:12] Necker Philgarlic: You are familiar with the protections that property cannot be taken without Due Process?
[17:12] GeoffMcG Xi: by the federal and state governments, yes.
[17:12] Necker Philgarlic: And the United States Constitution is the source of that right?
[17:13] GeoffMcG Xi: yes, the fifth and fourteenth amendments.
[17:13] Necker Philgarlic: So you would agree that the United States Constitution is a source of the rules that we all must play by, including Linden Labs?
[17:13] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: objection
[17:13] Eon Berkman: counsel, we are pretty far afield
[17:13] Necker Philgarlic: your honor
[17:13] Eon Berkman: please wrap up this line of questioning
[17:13] Necker Philgarlic: we are trying to get to the reasonableness of Mr. Bragg's reliance
[17:13] Necker Philgarlic: we will wrap up
[17:14] Necker Philgarlic: Mr. Bragg have you read the Constitution?
[17:14] GeoffMcG Xi: yes
[17:14] Necker Philgarlic: Mr. Bragg, from where did you log onto SL?
[17:14] GeoffMcG Xi: mainly from my home in West CHester, PA.
[17:14] Necker Philgarlic: Would you describe SL as a global community?
[17:15] GeoffMcG Xi: could you define global community for me, mr philgarlic?
[17:15] Necker Philgarlic: Would you describe SL as a world wide game?
[17:15] GeoffMcG Xi: to the extent that there are residents from all across the globe, yes.
[17:15] Necker Philgarlic: Are you aware that people log onto SL from all over the world, including China and North Korea?
[17:15] GeoffMcG Xi: yes sir.
[17:16] Necker Philgarlic: Within the SL community, shouldnât we all play by the same rules, even those logging on from North Korea?
[17:16] GeoffMcG Xi: im not sure what you mean, mr philgarlic.
[17:16] Necker Philgarlic: Donât people from all over the world have to play by the same rules when they log onto SL?
[17:16] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: objection
[17:17] Eon Berkman: sustained, argumentative
[17:17] Necker Philgarlic: sorry, your honor
[17:17] Eon Berkman: have you anything further
[17:18] Necker Philgarlic: yes, your honor
[17:18] Eon Berkman: proceed, with dispatch
[17:18] Necker Philgarlic: isn't the Terms of Service agreement the source of rights and responsibilities in Sl?
[17:19] GeoffMcG Xi: i know that there is such a document, but there are many other constraints on behavior in SL. Norms, customs.
[17:19] GeoffMcG Xi: Code.
[17:19] Necker Philgarlic: Just like when you travel to a foreign country, you obey the laws of that country?
[17:20] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: objection, cumulative
[17:20] Eon Berkman: sustained
[17:20] Necker Philgarlic: No further questions your honor.
[17:20] Eon Berkman: thank you
[17:20] Eon Berkman: mr. bragg, you are excused
[17:21] Eon Berkman: Linden Labs, please call your witness
[17:21] Necker Philgarlic: Linden Labs calls Philip Rosedale
[17:21] Eon Berkman: Mr. Rosedale, would you please take the witness chair to my right
[17:21] Rebecca Berkman: (nice suit!)
[17:22] Eon Berkman: counsel for linden labs, please proceed
[17:22] Necker Philgarlic: thank you, your honor
[17:22] Necker Philgarlic: Will you please state your name for the court?
[17:23] Andy Abrahamson: Philip Rosedale
[17:23] Necker Philgarlic: Mr. Rosedale what is your position in Linden Labs?
[17:23] Andy Abrahamson: I founded the company back in 99 and I am its CEO.
[17:23] Necker Philgarlic: What is your educational background?
[17:23] Andy Abrahamson: I majored in physics. UCSD
[17:23] Necker Philgarlic: What is your career background?
[17:24] Andy Abrahamson: I was involved in video-conferencing and streaming technologies in the early 90s.
[17:24] Andy Abrahamson: My company was bought by Real Networks and I became Veep and CTO.
[17:24] Andy Abrahamson: Did that for four years then came back to San Francisco,
[17:24] Andy Abrahamson: and began the basic research that would become the technology behind Linden Lab.
[17:24] Necker Philgarlic: Why did you start Second Life?
[17:25] Andy Abrahamson: Why did I start it? The online games market is bigger than Hollywood these days
[17:25] Andy Abrahamson: most of it is role play
[17:25] Andy Abrahamson: we saw the chance to do something a little differeent
[17:26] Necker Philgarlic: What notable differences exist between Second Life and other online games?
[17:26] Andy Abrahamson: well... Most games have a plot, and you work through pre-prepared levels.
[17:26] Andy Abrahamson: And when you're done, you wait for the next edition of the game to come along.
[17:26] Andy Abrahamson: As you all know, in Second Life, you make the plot. Like this trial.
[17:27] Andy Abrahamson: And the biggest difference is that our Terms of Service explicitly
[17:27] Andy Abrahamson: give you all rights to the IP on what you do. You own the transcript. I don't
[17:27] Andy Abrahamson: If you want to publish a screenshot from WoW you need to get permission from Blizzard's lawyers.
[17:27] Andy Abrahamson: in my opinion thats a huge difference
[17:27] Necker Philgarlic: WoW is another online game?
[17:28] Andy Abrahamson: world of warcraft. yes. a major competitor
[17:28] Necker Philgarlic: Does Second Life run on each userâs home computer or is there a central server somewhere?
[17:28] Andy Abrahamson: SL is distributed.
[17:28] Andy Abrahamson: a lot of processing.. drawing... takes place on your home computer
[17:28] Andy Abrahamson: allof the control and cooridnation is done on our servers
[17:28] Necker Philgarlic: How many servers are there?
[17:29] Andy Abrahamson: hmm
[17:29] Andy Abrahamson: over 1500 last time I checked
[17:29] Necker Philgarlic: Why do you need so many?
[17:29] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: objection, relevance
[17:29] Eon Berkman: overruled
[17:29] Necker Philgarlic: Who owns these servers?
[17:30] Andy Abrahamson: we need many because each server handles one.. maybe two at most simulations
[17:30] Andy Abrahamson: and we own them Linden labs and ou partners
[17:30] Necker Philgarlic: Do servers require maintenance?
[17:30] Andy Abrahamson: yes its a big operation. they require constant monitoring
[17:31] Andy Abrahamson: daily backups etc.. and if there's a problem, we have to replace a machine immediately
[17:31] Necker Philgarlic: Who pays for that maintenance?
[17:31] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: objection, relevance
[17:32] Eon Berkman: necker, what is the relevance of your question
[17:32] Andy Abrahamson: the inital price you pay for your land covers its starttup costs. After that you pay a monthly tuer like a property tax
[17:32] Necker Philgarlic: Your honor, the relevance is that it will show the relationship between the operation of teh servers and the ownership of land in SL
[17:32] Eon Berkman: why is that relevant
[17:33] Necker Philgarlic: we are showing what the users are buying when they purchase land in SL
[17:33] Necker Philgarlic: in terms of processing power on the servers
[17:33] Eon Berkman: ask that question and let us move one
[17:33] Eon Berkman: move on
[17:33] Necker Philgarlic: Can you explain for the benefit of some who might not know, what is meant by a âprimâ in Second Life?
[17:34] Andy Abrahamson: for users , prims are the primitive objectys they use to build content in SL
[17:34] Andy Abrahamson: in reality
[17:34] Andy Abrahamson: tehy are a way of allocating the capacity of a server
[17:34] Andy Abrahamson: so you can think of a prim as a chunk of our network capacity
[17:35] Necker Philgarlic: So âbuying landâ is really just renting access to Linden Labs servers in order to get exclusive control of their take advantage of the capacity to generate âprimsâ and host users?
[17:35] Andy Abrahamson: and thats what you are really buying when you buy SL land
[17:35] Andy Abrahamson: yes the key word tghere is exclusive
[17:35] Andy Abrahamson: anyone who comes in world gets access to our servers
[17:36] Andy Abrahamson: buying land gives you exclusivity and control
[17:36] Andy Abrahamson: you dcide what to do with this capacity
[17:36] Sanaa Ariantho: lol
[17:36] Andy Abrahamson: build structures like this amphitheatre... let others use it - sandboxes - buy sell or otherwise trade it
[17:36] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: objection, relevance
[17:37] Necker Philgarlic: We'll move on your honor
[17:37] Eon Berkman: sustained, this case involves the actions of mr. bragg, not the general operation of sl
[17:37] Necker Philgarlic: Mr. Rosedale, Have you ever referred to âland ownershipâ in SL as âfree and clear titleâ?
[17:37] Andy Abrahamson: yes
[17:37] Andy Abrahamson: thats what differentiates scondlife from other successful virtual worlds
[17:38] Necker Philgarlic: So if âland ownershipâ is more akin to a right of access to server power, what do you mean when you say âfree and clear titleâ?
[17:38] Andy Abrahamson: you... the second life acount holder own that land
[17:38] Andy Abrahamson: no other resiodent can take it from you or use it without your perrmission
[17:39] Andy Abrahamson: and as long as you dont default on your property taxes or use your account to attack the infrastrucxture of SL itself
[17:39] Andy Abrahamson: you won the land, you can keep it, sundivde it , sell it
[17:40] Andy Abrahamson: this is a very important difference betwen SL and other vuirtual worlds
[17:40] Necker Philgarlic: What was the conduct that Bragg was accused of?
[17:40] Andy Abrahamson: Mr Bragg subverted ourt land auction system for his own ends
[17:40] Necker Philgarlic: Who determined that this conduct by Mr. Bragg constituted a violation of the Terms of Service agreement?
[17:41] Andy Abrahamson: initially our systems picked up the anomily
[17:41] Andy Abrahamson: we first thought it was a glitch
[17:41] Necker Philgarlic: What would happen if Linden Labs did not respond to this sort of conduct?
[17:41] Andy Abrahamson: once we realized what was going on, we terminated his account
[17:43] Andy Abrahamson: when we realized it was a premeditated attack on our systems
[17:43] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: objection
[17:43] Eon Berkman: overruled
[17:43] Necker Philgarlic: Last Question
[17:44] Necker Philgarlic: What would happen if thousands of people had done what Bragg did?
[17:44] Andy Abrahamson: it would be dire for secondlife. we have a young prospering economy
[17:44] Andy Abrahamson: people trade because they have confidence
[17:45] Andy Abrahamson: if they saw that people were hacking into the system for financial advantag
[17:45] Andy Abrahamson: the system could easily collapse.. a virtual crash of '29
[17:45] Andy Abrahamson: hese people who attack our economic iinfrastructure are more dangerous than the more visible and childish griefers
[17:45] Necker Philgarlic: No further questions.
[17:45] Eon Berkman: thank you. please proceed with cross-x
[17:46] Necker Philgarlic pats Rosedale on the back.
[17:46] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: Thank you for being here this evening, Mr. Rosedale
[17:47] Andy Abrahamson: I'm glad to be here. I'm sorry for the slowness of our systems
[17:47] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: When you made your public statements about users owning their land in SL, how did you expect potential users would understand those statements?
[17:48] Andy Abrahamson: I expect that they would see the difference between our virtuaal economy and the closed systems you find elsewhere
[17:48] Andy Abrahamson: and be confident that they can create IP content here
[17:49] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: You stated that, if thousands of people did the same thing Bragg had, the economy would collapse. How is this the case, since thousands of people accessing auction pages would simply result in active auctions.
[17:50] Andy Abrahamson: thousands of people using exploits to attack our economy would be devasting
[17:50] Andy Abrahamson: we closed that particular loop hole as soon as we learned of it
[17:50] Andy Abrahamson: devastating if they were allowed to succeed
[17:50] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: You stated that Mr. Bragg "hacked" the SL system. Did he use passwords that he was not authorized to use? Did he change code?
[17:51] Andy Abrahamson: he used a web interface in an unintended way. he found an exploit that gave hm acccess he should not have had
[17:51] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: By "web interface," do you mean Google?
[17:52] Andy Abrahamson: he accessed information on our site using google yes.
[17:52] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: And this was the "hack"?
[17:52] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: Do the terms of service prohibit the use of Google?
[17:52] Andy Abrahamson: yes. it is quite possible to do things on the web that are not intended
[17:53] Andy Abrahamson: when they allow you access to a private database, it certainly is not intended
[17:53] Andy Abrahamson: we close these exploits when we find them. hackers are very ingenious
[17:53] Andy Abrahamson: I'm sorry. i hadnt noticed that question.
[17:54] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: How was Bragg supposed to know this intent? Did the page that he was easily able to access via Google have a warning?
[17:54] Andy Abrahamson: google indexes information it finds on the web, whether that informationm is meant for public consumption or not
[17:54] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: Was there any process before the punishment? Was Bragg given the opportunity to defend his actions?
[17:54] Andy Abrahamson: could you let me answer the questions please before you give me another onbe
[17:54] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: sorry
[17:54] Andy Abrahamson: which of these questions would you like me to answer first
[17:55] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: The first. Sorry.
[17:55] Madison Kotobide: lol
[17:55] Andy Abrahamson: When you find a private page or some secret information that has been indexed buy google
[17:55] Andy Abrahamson: t rearely has "top secret" stamped on it
[17:56] Andy Abrahamson: he new it wass sensitive and valuable information that was not intended for residents use
[17:56] Andy Abrahamson: accessing it was not the problem. using this information to try to undermine our economy was
[17:56] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: Was there any process before the punishment? Was Bragg given the opportunity to defend his actions?
[17:57] Eon Berkman: if i may intrude, the questions to which i would like to hear answers are these"
[17:57] Eon Berkman: was there process before the confiscation of mr. braggs property
[17:58] Andy Abrahamson: shall I answer that now your honor?
[17:58] Eon Berkman: yes
[17:59] Andy Abrahamson: the process is according to our terms of service. it is a blunt instrument, but we treat all who try to undermine our infrastructure the same
[17:59] Andy Abrahamson: first we suspend the account, and check that tehre has indeed been an attack initiated from outside SL
[18:00] Andy Abrahamson: that is malicious
[18:00] Andy Abrahamson: and then, according to the TOS (the same TOS that gives people IP over their content) we cancelled his account
[18:00] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: Are there any limits on Linden Labs' power to punish users? Due process limits or other limits that ensure a proportional response to infractions (proportional as definied by the community standards of SL)?
[18:00] Andy Abrahamson: we usally get accused of not gettihng involved
[18:01] Eon Berkman: counsel, how much more?
[18:01] Andy Abrahamson: we only intervene "at our borders" when people are trying to break our system... either through violence o by trying to undermine our economy
[18:01] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: Your honor, at this time we'd like to motion for a directed verdict.
[18:02] Eon Berkman: thank you mr. rosedale, you are excused
[18:02] Necker Philgarlic: Your Honor, we clearly oppose this motion.
[18:02] Andy Abrahamson: thank you yor honor
[18:02] Eon Berkman: state your motion
[18:02] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: We repeat our motion for a directed verdict.
[18:02] Eon Berkman: overruled
[18:03] Eon Berkman: we will now have closing argument for bragg
[18:03] Rebecca Berkman: (nice coordination of avatars!)
[18:04] Rebecca Berkman: Sdrum, can you come and face the jury?
[18:04] Sdrum Alcott: sorry about that
[18:04] Eon Berkman: is counsel for bragg ready to prodeed
[18:04] Rebecca Berkman: that's good enought.
[18:04] Rebecca Berkman: you can jump over the table if you're able to.
[18:05] Sdrum Alcott: Ladies and Gentlemen of tLadies and Gentlemen of the jury:he jury:
[18:05] Eon Berkman: becca would you assist sdrum in standing before the jury
[18:06] Sdrum Alcott: The decision you submit in this case gives you the opportunity to influence the development of the legal framework that will govern Second Life.
[18:06] Sdrum Alcott: I do not envy you, because youâre in a very difficult position.
[18:07] Sdrum Alcott: This is a case of first impression. That means that this is the first time that a case like this has been brought before the Court, and thus you will have little guidance. The defendant has argued that Mr. Bragg brought this case before you to be a âtest case.â The defendant is right. This is a test case and its outcome will be the first brick in the foundation of legal protection of virtual property and your innate sense of fairness is the compass that must guide you.
[18:07] Sdrum Alcott: You will be asked to determine whether Mr. Bragg owned his land.
[18:07] Sdrum Alcott: While Mr. Rosedaleâs defense team has attempted to argue that this is a simple issue with a simple answer, all of the evidence before you shows that this is not the case.
[18:07] Sdrum Alcott: Based on Mr. Rosedaleâs numerous public assertions, Mr. Bragg owned the land that he purchased with real U.S. currency.
[18:08] Sdrum Alcott: The evidence that has been presented to you clearly shows that Mr. Bragg owned much of his land through purchases at full and fair auctions. Without a doubt, in his most recent land purchase, Mr. Bragg exploited a loophole.
[18:08] Sdrum Alcott: Mr. Bragg exploited a loophole that Linden Labs left open to anyone with access to Google.
[18:08] Sdrum Alcott: A loophole- a gap in the rules- like the one found by Mr. Bragg may be closed in the future. However, are we not starting down a dangerous road when we punish someone for an action that was legal at the time?
[18:08] Sdrum Alcott: We are not disputing that Linden Labs has the right to close this loophole. Linden Labs is, however, trying to punish Mr. Bragg for its own mistake.
[18:09] Sdrum Alcott: In taking all of Mr. Braggâs land â and not just the land he acquired because of the loophole â Linden Labsâ actions can be described only as vindictive and outside of any legal sense of fairness.
[18:09] Sdrum Alcott: In taking all of Mr. Braggâs land â and not just the land he acquired because of the loophole â Linden Labsâ actions can be described only as vindictive and outside of any legal sense of fairness.
[18:09] Sdrum Alcott: As the creators of Second Life continue to fine tune their product, we must ensure that users are not held responsible for their mistakes.
[18:10] Sdrum Alcott: What is not at issue is that Mr. Bragg assented to the terms of service agreement. He absolutely did.
[18:10] Sdrum Alcott: But what is at issue is whether the term of service agreement is an appropriate contract to guide the outcome of this case.
[18:10] Sdrum Alcott: This is a test case about the most important issue governing the growth and development of Second Life. It doesnât seem appropriate to resolve such an issue by some text that almost no one reads. Do we want a clickwrap agreement determining the outcome of this case? If this agreement is enforceable, then we would be conceding that Second Life is no different than a website, instead of a virtual world in which virtual property exists.
[18:10] Sdrum Alcott: This case is not only about the money at stake. It is about the misrepresentations of Linden Labs, and the reliance that all members of the Second Life community place on them.
[18:11] Sdrum Alcott: Linden Labs misrepresented itself and wrongly benefited from a major advantage over its competitors. Linden Labs recruited participants to its particular virtual world under the banner of providing ownership and intellectual property rights not available elsewhere.
[18:11] Sdrum Alcott: There were a multitude other options that offered more interesting worlds, yet many like Bragg were drawn to Second Lifeâs promise of true property rights. Had Bragg known from the beginning that Linden Labs would operate its service in a manner no different from all the other virtual world hosts, he would not be under the impression that he owned his SL lands. Perhaps he never would have bought land in Second Life to begin with.
[18:11] Sdrum Alcott: In the end, you have one fundamental question to answer: was it right for Linden Labs to punish Mr. Bragg by taking all of his property, including property that was purchased before the events leading to this dispute arose? We believe it was not. After all, in the real world could the government punish a petty thief by taking his house?
[18:12] Sdrum Alcott: It is important that you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, decide this case. You, as participants in Second Life, will be governed by the decision in this case, and so you should have the final say in its outcome. Thank you for your thoughtful deliberation, and your time.
[18:12] Eon Berkman: thank you. now the closing argument for Linden Labs.
[18:12] Nesson Redgrave: Thank you, your Honor.
[18:12] Eon Berkman: would counsel please step forward
[18:13] Nesson Redgrave: Can everyone hear me?
[18:13] Superlawyer3000 Susanti: Yes.
[18:13] Eon Berkman: yes, please proceed
[18:13] Alan Lederberg: yes
[18:13] Nesson Redgrave: Madame fore-avatar and avatars of the jury, my name is Nesson Redgrave, and I will give the closing argument for Linden Labs.
[18:14] Nesson Redgrave: Imagine the following scenario in RL:
[18:14] Nesson Redgrave: An auction company has for offer a valuable piece of furniture to be auctioned next Saturday.
[18:14] Nesson Redgrave: On Thursday night, a man enters the show room and takes the piece of furniture, leaving in its place $25.
[18:14] Nesson Redgrave: I think itâs clear that we would describe what that man did as stealing.
[18:15] Nesson Redgrave: When we discover the theft, what would we do? Would we simply ask him to return the furniture and give him back the $25?
[18:15] Nesson Redgrave: No, we would require more than that. First, we would return the furniture to the company.
[18:15] Nesson Redgrave: Then, we would find some way to punish him for the crime in order to deter future thefts and to protect everyoneâs property rights.
[18:15] Nesson Redgrave: Now, rewind to April, 2006. Marc Bragg circumvents the auction process and takes SL land up for auction from Linden Labs.
[18:15] Nesson Redgrave: That is stealing.
[18:15] Nesson Redgrave: It doesnât matter whether he âhackedâ into the system, just as in RL, it wouldnât matter whether the show room left the door open or not.
[18:16] Nesson Redgrave: He knew what he was doing was wrong.
[18:16] Nesson Redgrave: Avatars of the jury, you will soon have to answer three questions.
[18:16] Nesson Redgrave: First, you must decide whether Mr. Bragg was the owner of his SL property prior to his âexploit.â
[18:16] Nesson Redgrave: We agree with opposing counsel on this question. That was clearly Braggâs property until the date of his âexploit.â
[18:16] Nesson Redgrave: Second, you must decide whether Mr. Braggâs auction activity was wrong.
[18:17] Nesson Redgrave: To protect everyoneâs property rights in SL, the answer to this has to be yes. It was wrong.
[18:17] Nesson Redgrave: Mr. Braggâs âexploitâ was theft, not only from Linden Labs, but also from all other SL citizens that might have wanted to bid on that property.
[18:17] Nesson Redgrave: Third, if Mr. Braggâs activity was wrong, were Lindenâs actions justified?
[18:17] Nesson Redgrave: Clearly, a punishment is necessary. Linden Labs is not only the victim of this theft, but also the only form of authority that exists in SL.
[18:17] Nesson Redgrave: Linden Labs must use that authority to protect the property rights of all SL citizens.
[18:18] Nesson Redgrave: Thus, Linden Labs enforces punishment. However, Linden is not free to choose whatever punishment it wants.
[18:18] Nesson Redgrave: Linden must follow the punishment set out in the Terms of Service that all SL citizens have agreed to.
[18:18] Nesson Redgrave: The Terms of Service explicitly require that an SL citizen in violation of the Terms of Service shall be banned from SL.
[18:18] Nesson Redgrave: If Linden Labs had created a punishment for Mr. Bragg other than the one laid out in the Terms of Service, it would have been unfair to all other SL citizens.
[18:18] Nesson Redgrave: Avatars of the jury, we ask you to deliberate carefully on these questions, bearing in mind that the protection of our community is at stake.
[18:19] Nesson Redgrave: We have every confidence that your decision will be correct, fair, and in the best interest of the second life community.
[18:19] Nesson Redgrave: Thank you.
[18:19] Eon Berkman: tyank you. avatars of the jury
[18:19] Eon Berkman: it is now time for you to be charged with your duty to deliberate.
[18:20] Eon Berkman: in a moment you will retire. you must consider each of three questions.
[18:20] Chinadoll Lulu: mmhmmm
[18:21] Eon Berkman: first: Prior to the exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased?
[18:21] Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then consider the second question:
[18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?
[18:22] Eon Berkman: then consider the third:
[18:22] Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?
[18:23] Eon Berkman: you will now please retire to consider your verdict. please act with dispatch and return promptly. thankyou
[18:23] Rebecca Berkman: avatars of the jury, please retire to Austin Hall to deliberate. Rejoin us when you have reached a verdict.
[18:23] Daisyblue Hefferman: tp please to deliberation site?
[18:23] Cordelia Moy: THanks.
[18:26] Eon Berkman: while the jury is out, shall we discuss what has transpired?
[18:27] Rebecca Berkman: Hey everyone, nice work!
[18:27] Rebecca Berkman: Eon, would you like to give some feedback to the teams of laywers?
[18:27] Madison Kotobide: thanks, Rebecca
[18:27] Rebecca Berkman: Also, others who are observing, we'd love to hear your feedback too!
[18:27] Eon Berkman: i found the proceeding quite remarkable
[18:27] Rebecca Berkman: While we wait for the jury....
[18:27] Eon Berkman: thank you to our terrific witnesses
[18:28] GeoffMcG Xi: yeah phil!
[18:28] Andy Abrahamson: ^5
[18:28] Eon Berkman: and thank you to our lawyers
[18:29] Tateru Nino: I wish I'd made it to the earlier sessions.
[18:29] Andy Abrahamson: yes, they were less rushed
[18:29] Rebecca Berkman: all the transcripts are posted on teh course wbsite.
[18:30] Eon Berkman: pardon, my machine seems to be rebelling
[18:30] Rebecca Berkman: there is a lot of lag right now.
[18:30] Madison Kotobide: Eon, were you watching 8 Mile at the same time? ;)
[18:30] Tateru Nino: The impression I got at the end there was that Bragg was arguing that what was 'possible' was legal and permissible.
[18:30] Eon Berkman: no, but i do think the bragg lawyers chose an excellent line of argument
[18:31] Rebecca Berkman: yes, tateru, me too. perhaps since what he was doing didn't require any particular technical expertise, it didn't feel like a hack to him.
[18:31] Eon Berkman: setting up the case to maximize chances that the jury would split the difference so to speak,
[18:31] Tateru Nino: 'Due process' certainly made a compelling argument, I thought.
[18:31] Eon Berkman: find his exploit bad but leave him with his previously owned land
[18:31] Andy Abrahamson: If they throw out the TOS does that mean you all lose your IP rights that are in the TOS as well?
[18:32] Andy Abrahamson: or can you pick and choose which parts of a contract you like
[18:32] You: I thought the linden closing made a good point, that even if the auction hall had left its door unlocked it still would be stealing
[18:32] Rebecca Berkman: they don't have to throw out the whole ToS to find that Bragg has rights to the property he bought through the usual process.
[18:32] You: good use of ananlogy
[18:32] Eon Berkman: also though rosedale made a good presentation of the reason why linden would eliminate any of its users who maliciously attacked
[18:32] GeoffMcG Xi: i wasreally happy with this ecercise. I did, however, expect a bit more to be made of the public statements made by Rosedale
[18:32] Andy Abrahamson: quote "no refunds"
[18:32] Tateru Nino scratches her head. It varies from country to country, I think, but a when a portion of a contract is found to be invalid, it does not necessarily invalidate the whole document.
[18:32] You: like levin was talking about
[18:33] Bruce Flyer: an initial reference to "killing his avatar" seemed to go no where
[18:33] Eon Berkman: yes, the cross of rosedale could have been tighter
[18:33] Eon Berkman: and focused more sharply on his public statements, which are very strong
[18:34] GeoffMcG Xi:
[18:34] Eon Berkman: let us her from andy and geoff about how they actually think the case should come out
[18:35] GeoffMcG Xi: lol, oh boy.
[18:35] Andy Abrahamson: we never got to the heart of what this virtualk property was. It isnt a patch f grass or an island. or maybe that doesnt matter
[18:35] Andy Abrahamson: after you geoff
[18:35] Eon Berkman: why does that matter
[18:36] Eon Berkman: isn't it "expectation" that we protect, whether grass or anything else
[18:36] GeoffMcG Xi: i think that the parcel in question, taessot, is gone for Bragg. But, if an estoppel argument wins out, he is refunded his money because there was nothing preventing him from doing what he did.
[18:36] Eon Berkman: andy?
[18:36] Rebecca Berkman: but don't you think he knew it was wrong when he did it? obviously LL wouldn't let him buy so much under market.
[18:37] Andy Abrahamson: I think that hacking into the system from outside is a form of terrorism. many people could lose a lot of money. they have a blunt instrument now, kick them out if they hack
[18:37] Andy Abrahamson: its actually a form of homeland security
[18:38] Rebecca Berkman: wow, you guys really are *in* your roles.
[18:38] Andy Abrahamson: if they had a due process, they could maybe have a different response for differnt hacks
[18:38] GeoffMcG Xi: yes, becca. he clearly got something through shady dealing. but i think before the cost of Teassot is forfeited--let alone the rest of the property and the $2000--there needed to be some advanced notice.
[18:38] Eon Berkman: andy, do you have any idea how many complaints ll has to deal with on a daily or weekly basis?
[18:38] Bruce Flyer: will there be a transcript available of the jury's conversation?
[18:38] Rebecca Berkman: i have asked the jury fore-avatar to keep a transcript.
[18:39] Rebecca Berkman: she says there is "quite a conversation" going on right now!
[18:39] GeoffMcG Xi: lol, what a hoot!
[18:39] Andy Abrahamson: sorry. lag. they get a lot and only seem to deal with the dangerous ones. attacks on the infrastructure
[18:39] Yvette Kumsung: If, as Linden stated, Bragg's conduct was of an ethical matter that is "stealing," I don't understand why they can take a legal step and confiscate his property. Isn't that contradictory?
[18:39] Andy Abrahamson: peopledislike them because they are not proactive
[18:40] Eon Berkman: they must be close to overwhelmed
[18:40] Eon Berkman: with much more important (from their point of view) things to do
[18:40] GeoffMcG Xi: they could hire all of us, and we could come up with some pretty creative solutions, i think.
[18:41] Eon Berkman: do you suppose that ll might be interested in a user-run dispute res system
[18:41] Yvette Kumsung: I don't think they could afford to hire all of you hehe
[18:41] Sycamore Rousselot: summary proces followed by judicial review, like we had here could represent due process, no?
[18:41] GeoffMcG Xi: only if there is user-run governance on a broader level.
[18:41] Bruce Flyer: pro bono here?
[18:41] Andy Abrahamson: well they seem to like arbitration... so if the parties agree, why not
[18:41] GeoffMcG Xi: LL makes mad cash
[18:41] Tateru Nino: LL doesn't make a profit, though.
[18:41] Yvette Kumsung: they are not so profitable
[18:42] Tateru Nino: LL operates at a diminishing loss.
[18:42] Still Defiant: i'd like to preface my comments by saying that, being cognizant of the fact that the TOS states LL can observe and record my interactions within SL, and may delete my account at "any time for any or no reason", i do not wish LL any harm by making any particular comments and i sincerely hope that i am not punished by for expression a certain view about a case againstthem
[18:42] Bruce Flyer: but an in world "machine" would take some heat of them on occasion
[18:42] GeoffMcG Xi: i didnt know that.
[18:42] Rebecca Berkman: do we actually know how much they make?
[18:42] Sycamore Rousselot: That's beccause they're spending too much on lawyers in RL.
[18:43] Andy Abrahamson: it isnt in their interst to lose customers
[18:43] Tateru Nino: They appear to have three, Sycamore. Ginsu Yoon (internal counsel), and two more retained for the purposes of this case.
[18:43] GeoffMcG Xi: they are hiring another in house.
[18:43] Andy Abrahamson: worried about a runaway jury perhaps
[18:43] Sycamore Rousselot: I'm proposing a SL dispute resolution mechanism. It might actually save money.
[18:43] Yvette Kumsung: That's why some games have banned conversion of actual currency in the game because it brings in so many RL issues
[18:43] Still Defiant: Eon Berkman, do you think that if the real case goes to trial, there would be a lot of discussion about whether or not Mr Brag intentionally "exploited" the auction system?
[18:43] Rebecca Berkman: anyone applying?
[18:44] GeoffMcG Xi: i would, but they want 8 years experience.
[18:44] Eon Berkman: yes, i would think so
[18:44] Eon Berkman: bragg
[18:44] Eon Berkman: bragg's only way out of the tos is by application of some sort of equitable principle
[18:45] Yvette Kumsung: of course he intentionally exploited it, or rather, was being really smart
[18:45] Eon Berkman: that the punishment didn't fit the crime
[18:45] Eon Berkman: which makes the seriousness of his crime part of the equitable balance
[18:45] Andy Abrahamson: does it matter that LL applies this TOS rule to all hackers/griefers? i.e they are consisten in their use of the TOS?
[18:45] Eon Berkman: the more intentional and malicious, the more linden is justified in its blunt approach
[18:46] Eon Berkman: yes, it would matter
[18:46] Yvette Kumsung: he was making use of the capitalistic market system, which is highly encouraged in SL
[18:46] Madison Kotobide: Professor, I would argue that by confiscating the value of his pre-existing propert, the TosS had a liquidated damages clause that was invalid
[18:46] Eon Berkman: if they apply what to them is a reasonable policy across the board then they should be in good shape
[18:46] Andy Abrahamson: they could say "we know its blunt but we apply it even handledly because its all we have"
[18:46] Miscellena Hyacinth: also, straight rescission wouldn't deter future actions. people would continue to search for exploits, knowing that the worst would be to give up what they had gained.
[18:46] Still Defiant: Mr Bragg is a lawyer and has practiced in "without incident" in the US District Court Eastern District of PA and is confident enough to bring the case.. if he has a good ethical record as a lawyer, I would think it would be difficult for a jury to look at his actions as being intentionally malicious
[18:47] Andy Abrahamson: if the glove fits, you must acquit
[18:47] Eon Berkman: bec, it's time to see if the jury is near to ready
[18:47] GeoffMcG Xi: the hacker distinction was interesting in this case.
[18:47] Rebecca Berkman: btw, i thought Bragg's knowledge of the law was very impressive on the stand! Bragg woudl have been proud.
[18:47] Tateru Nino: Do US Juries have an inherent trust for US attorneys?
[18:47] Yvette Kumsung: "hack" was definitely an improper term to use
[18:47] Eon Berkman: :<)
[18:47] GeoffMcG Xi: lol, the lower fed courts was a blast!
[18:48] Rebecca Berkman: i just asked them. they are trying to answer question two now.
[18:48] Eon Berkman: please tell them that we would like to close by ten
[18:48] Andy Abrahamson: "a rush to justice " :-)
[18:49] Eon Berkman: usually juries can't wait to be done
[18:49] Eon Berkman: they must be having a good time
[18:49] Bruce Flyer: somehow, this should be written into "vitual history"
[18:49] GeoffMcG Xi: im watching 12 angry men tonight for sure.
[18:50] Rebecca Berkman: this jury is not having the 12 angry men problem!
[18:50] Eon Berkman: what problem is it having
[18:50] Tateru Nino points to the SL history wiki.
[18:50] Andy Abrahamson: where's that chat relay?
[18:50] Tateru Nino: http://slhistory.org/
[18:50] Rebecca Berkman: no problem -- just a desire to deliberate!
[18:50] Bruce Flyer: tks
[18:50] GeoffMcG Xi: how did vior dire go?
[18:51] Rebecca Berkman: voir dire was good. really good questions, i thought.
[18:51] Rebecca Berkman: we took all the available jurors in the end though.
[18:51] GeoffMcG Xi: i'll have to read the transcript
[18:51] Tateru Nino: I've got a lot of reading in front ofme.
[18:51] GeoffMcG Xi: how did the atty's find questioning jurors in SL?
[18:52] GeoffMcG Xi: how did you assess credibility?
[18:52] Madison Kotobide: I think I learned how much the face to face chemistry of it is important
[18:52] Bob2007 Boyd: we made a chart of the questions along with each juror's answers to look for trends
[18:53] GeoffMcG Xi: what trends were you looking for?
[18:53] Eon Berkman: were you in position to exercise a peremptory if i had given you one
[18:53] Rebecca Berkman: they jury just messaged that they'll have their verdict in 3 minutes. hold tight!
[18:53] Madison Kotobide: 3 minutes?
[18:53] Madison Kotobide sucks down a Cigarette!
[18:54] Tateru Nino grabs a cig also.
[18:54] Bob2007 Boyd: no single juror stood out (in my opinion at least, I cannot speak for the whole group) who we would have cut
[18:54] Rebecca Berkman: that's right -- get nervous.
[18:54] Bob2007 Boyd: but some were definitely more sumpathetic to LL
[18:54] Rebecca Berkman: i thought the questions about whether jurors make money in SL were good, and about land ownership.
[18:54] GeoffMcG Xi: i am, in a strange way. funny how SL gets you so involved.
[18:54] Sycamore Rousselot: wringing hands
[18:55] Rebecca Berkman: also, i thought that the questions about whether they would try another LL vw and whether it was a game were very interesting.
[18:55] Eon Berkman: it's true, we really want to know.
[18:55] Rebecca Berkman: i think i am too. we have an ongoing debate going with a Berkman fellow, Ethan Zuckerman, about whether it is ethical for us to use SL.
[18:55] Rebecca Berkman: He says no because it is not open source.
[18:55] Still Defiant: Eon Berkman, what do you think the likelihood of a Court ultimately declaring that the virtual property is like real property?
[18:55] GeoffMcG Xi: they are going to cut the baby in twain, hoping that i shriek out to give it to Phil
[18:55] Rebecca Berkman: I say yes because we are prototyping, not committing to the environment.
[18:56] Rebecca Berkman: But I thikn I've developed some additional loyalty to LL.
[18:56] Bruce Flyer: i think the code is going to become open source
[18:56] GeoffMcG Xi: i caught the zuckerman comment during the luncheon. he had a good point.
[18:56] Rebecca Berkman: they have only made the client open source, not the viewer.
[18:56] Eon Berkman: if it has value, courts are likely to treat it as some form of property
[18:57] Rebecca Berkman: Ethan has a very good blog post about it.
[18:57] Eon Berkman: but they will go slow
[18:57] Still Defiant: interesting
[18:57] Rebecca Berkman: I agree with him, as many of you know, but I'm not willing to wait until an alternative is ready.
[18:57] Rebecca Berkman: ok, i am going to call the jury back.
[18:57] Sycamore Rousselot: Does anything even close to this space exist in croquet (opensource)?
[18:57] GeoffMcG Xi: well, i think a response to ethan is that SL has no incentive to take from the residents for malicious purposes.
[18:58] GeoffMcG Xi: their best currency is good faith.
[18:58] Andy Abrahamson: and they have to work out how to safeguard a real economy before going open source
[18:58] Rebecca Berkman: that's true, Geoff, but they are a monopoly, in essence, with all the negative stuff that goes along with that.
[18:58] Andy Abrahamson: or Bragg will be the least of their problems
[18:59] GeoffMcG Xi: they certainly have potential to abuse their power. but the incentives are their to resist the urge.
[18:59] Eon Berkman: security first, justice later, is that the idea
[18:59] GeoffMcG Xi: ooh, pardon the grammar.
[18:59] Yvette Kumsung: LL could have avoided a lot of blame by putting Bragg's case in the open rather than closing his account and having public rash lead him to leave
[18:59] Rebecca Berkman: Eon, I think that is a bit harsh, perhaps.
[18:59] Rebecca Berkman: here comes the fore-avatar!
[19:00] Rebecca Berkman: and the other jurors!
[19:00] Eon Berkman: order in the court
[19:00] Rebecca Berkman: wow, i'm nervous!
[19:00] Eon Berkman: the jury is returning
[19:00] Eon Berkman: jury fore-avatar
[19:00] Eon Berkman: has the jury reached its verdicts
[19:00] Cordelia Moy: Yes your honor
[19:00] Teresa Cinquetti sits up on the edge of her seat
[19:01] Cordelia Moy: Yes we have, your honor.
[19:01] Chinadoll Lulu smacks T's behind
[19:01] Eon Berkman: would you please deliver the verdict
[19:01] Teresa Cinquetti winces
[19:01] MyNameIs Burton: the suspense
[19:01] Cordelia Moy: Yes,. On the first question, did Bragg own property, wer concludede yes.
[19:02] Andy Abrahamson: will Phil Linden fire his legal team?
[19:02] Cordelia Moy: Majority, not unanimity.
[19:02] Rebecca Berkman bites fingernails
[19:02] Eon Berkman: thank you
[19:02] Eon Berkman: proceed
[19:02] Cordelia Moy: On the 2nd question, which w as . . . (sorry )
[19:03] Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?
[19:03] Cordelia Moy: we voted yes: that the exploit was impropoer
[19:03] Eon Berkman: thank you. proceed.
[19:04] Cordelia Moy: And as to the third, was Linden justiied in takin gthe property beofre
[19:04] Cordelia Moy: the exploit (acuqired), we voted no.
[19:05] Cordelia Moy: That was the toughest.
[19:05] Chinadoll Lulu: (ooc 6 to 3 vote)
[19:05] Cordelia Moy: That's it.
[19:05] Eon Berkman: avatars of the jury, has your fore-avatar accurately stated your verdict
[19:06] Chinadoll Lulu: aye
[19:06] Tetero Lesse: Yes
[19:06] Alan Lederberg: yes
[19:06] Teresa Cinquetti smiles and nods yes
[19:06] Yuu Nakamichi: yes, your honor
[19:06] Daisyblue Hefferman: Yes, Your Honor. Judge Eon, great wig bty.
[19:06] Chuck Commons: Yes, your honor.
[19:06] Rebecca Berkman: Yvette Kumsung = wig maker
[19:06] Eon Berkman: thank you for your service.
[19:07] Teresa Cinquetti can't wasit to sell her story to Oprah
[19:07] Chinadoll Lulu will sell the story to playboy magainze in her pose
[19:07] Necker Philgarlic: your honor, we'd like to move for judgment notwithstanding the verdict
[19:07] Rebecca Berkman: lol
[19:07] GeoffMcG Xi: can i request awarding attorney's fees?
[19:07] Yuu Nakamichi has the novel lined up
[19:07] Eon Berkman: it is the judgment of this court that linden labs should return to mr. bragg the property he owned prior to his exploit.
[19:08] Daisyblue Hefferman: yes!!!!
[19:08] Chinadoll Lulu where is my jury serving payment of $27 dollar a day? that would be 3 days of service......
[19:08] Eon Berkman: motion for judgment nothwithstanding the verdict is denied.
[19:08] Daisyblue Hefferman: lol China
[19:08] Eon Berkman: attorney's fees are denied.
[19:08] GeoffMcG Xi: grrr.
[19:09] Nate Grigges: could you clarify judgement notwithstanding the verdict please, your honor?
[19:09] Cordelia Moy: Becca, shall I send you the transcript?
[19:09] Eon Berkman: in the next trial we will see if jurors can be paid in linden dollars for their service.
[19:09] Chinadoll Lulu: he suggested the lawyer fee to be paid by Linden and judege said no
[19:10] Eon Berkman: a motion for judgment notwithstanding the verdict coming from linden would be asking the judge
[19:10] Eon Berkman: to rule for them even though the jury verdict was to the contrary.
[19:10] Nate Grigges: oh, alright, thank you
[19:10] Rebecca Berkman: Thank you all very much for participating. we've done something really novel.
[19:10] Teresa Cinquetti would settle for a plug advert on Caged and jpCatz designer clothes and ...
[19:10] Chinadoll Lulu: i see hehe
[19:10] Teresa Cinquetti: thanks for letting us participate
[19:11] Necker Philgarlic: thank you, your honor; thank you, rebecca
[19:11] Eon Berkman: it would be a way, for example, for the judge to say that the tos prevails no matter what rosedale said.
[19:11] Nate Grigges: not a bad idea, Teresa
[19:11] Rebecca Berkman: i woudl like to invite anyone who is interested to join me here next tuesday night at 8pm EST to discuss the trial further.
[19:11] Chinadoll Lulu: by the way
[19:11] Chinadoll Lulu: may i add a comment
[19:11] Chuck Commons: Do we get t-shirts that say " I served Virtual Jury Duty"?
[19:11] Eon Berkman: of course
[19:11] Daisyblue Hefferman: lol
[19:11] Nate Grigges grins at Chuck.
[19:11] Rebecca Berkman: Eon, perhaps you can adjourn the court so people who need to leave can go home?
[19:11] Chinadoll Lulu: if the Liden team show an exhibit for the TOS -- where they have the power to take property away as punishment, #3 would have been a yes
[19:11] Cordelia Moy: Is that 8 pm. SLT??
[19:12] Eon Berkman: thank you all. court is adjourned
[19:12] Zoe Cronenwerth: on behalf of Sasy Drum, may we be excused?
[19:12] Daisyblue Hefferman: no, but you can wear the word over your head as long as you want lol
[19:12] Rebecca Berkman: 8pm EST. actually, i'm not totally sure of the time yet, so i'll have to send an announcement to the mailing list.
[19:12] Rebecca Berkman: but that's a tentative date/time.
[19:12] Necker Philgarlic: shoot... we were thinking of doing just that
[19:12] Chinadoll Lulu: sorry when and what?
[19:12] Necker Philgarlic: but weren't sure if we could
[19:12] Nate Grigges: yes, it would have been great to see some sort of exhibit that could shed light on the policy of LL
[19:13] Rebecca Berkman: On behalf of Judge Eon, I adjourn the court.
[19:13] Rebecca Berkman: Everyone is free to go home and eat dinner!
[19:13] Chinadoll Lulu: or doing other things
[19:13] Chinadoll Lulu: lol
[19:13] Chinadoll Lulu winks at T
[19:13] Yvette Kumsung: yeah
[19:13] Nate Grigges: oh man, I ate before I got here, someone must be starving