Talk:SL Office Hours

From CyberOne Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search
  • [17:07] GeneKoo Li is Online
  • [17:08] GeneKoo Li: neway i guess that's not the point but rather integrating all the other content
  • [17:08] lIHd Sellery: well yes it is low compared hdtv
  • [17:09] lIHd Sellery: yes, one of the problems we're discussing is integrating the slides with the video.
  • [17:10] GeneKoo Li: It's tricky that one innit?
  • [17:10] GeneKoo Li: Aphilo is "Missing" purposefully part of your av?
  • [17:11] You: The introductory SL video was able to show some screen shots, which are akin to slides, and the video presentation worked.
  • [17:11] You: "Missing"?
  • [17:11] GeneKoo Li: Yeah it says "Missing" all over your body, like the texture is gone
  • [17:11] You: Your penguin is cute.
  • [17:11] GeneKoo Li: Either that, or it's like that Rorscarch character from Watchmen
  • [17:12] GeneKoo Li: This av is designed after an actual plush penguin :)
  • [17:12] You: I'll look for my skins in inventory. This happened yesterday, as well.
  • [17:12] lIHd Sellery: yeah considering some of the people doing the integrating may not be in the class, that means that a good/reliable timeline is necessary and something that we do not necessarily have going yet.
  • [17:12] GeneKoo Li: Well it is interesting that some of the projects are shaping up to be about the "meta class" -- the idea of open education
  • [17:14] GeneKoo Li: I actually do find the lectures mostly fine just to listen to. Some editing would help to tighten them up, but I often have it running in the bg
  • [17:16] GeneKoo Li: Did I forget to list this office hour in Moodle?
  • [17:16] lIHd Sellery: hmmm, yeah they are great to listen to casualy but in order to engage in the a bit more indepth, they probably need some tightening up.
  • [17:17] lIHd Sellery: have you checked out the video project page, that is a good gauge of where the project is.
  • [17:17] lIHd Sellery: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/cyberone/wiki/The_Video_Production_Project
  • [17:17] GeneKoo Li: I should keep up with all the project pages, it can get pretty bewildering
  • [17:17] You: Can you tell me if I now have a jacket?
  • [17:17] lIHd Sellery: but to sum up I would say that it is currently in the "being defined stage"
  • [17:17] GeneKoo Li: Yes everything but your face
  • [17:18] GeneKoo Li: Which makes you look like a superhero/villain
  • [17:18] lIHd Sellery: nah, probably just easier to ask someone to summarize it for you.
  • [17:18] GeneKoo Li: Verily, the limits of technology
  • [17:19] lIHd Sellery: I'm more concerned about our temporal limits.
  • [17:19] David Spaatz is Online
  • [17:19] lIHd Sellery: though I imiagine anything that is produced will advance the golas of the course.
  • [17:20] lIHd Sellery: I means "goals"
  • [17:20] You: Eyes now, but no face?
  • [17:20] GeneKoo Li: Sure, of course -- it would be nice tho if the project were defined like the other ones (e.g. goals and all that)
  • [17:20] GeneKoo Li: Yes, Aphilo, you've got a big MIssing across your mouth. it looks pretty "Phantom of the Opera"
  • [17:20] lIHd Sellery: well it's on it's way there are the other projects at a stage where they are well defined?
  • [17:21] GeneKoo Li: No, becca and I are just finalizing the project writeup doc.
  • [17:22] You: I put some more body parts on :); face now? There isn't explicitly called 'face' in my inventory.
  • [17:22] GeneKoo Li: Yeah I thought all the skin was in one big skin file
  • [17:22] lIHd Sellery: I think that the video project looks pretty good so far. I suppose it would help if we had some models that we'd like to emulate. I remembering posting something on that a few weeks ago. and I know some of the other students have ideas on that so that is
  • [17:22] lIHd Sellery: probably the next step
  • [17:23] GeneKoo Li: It amazes me that ppl would want to do this, I'm very impressed
  • [17:23] lIHd Sellery: easier to copy a succesful example in my opinion
  • [17:24] GeneKoo Li: Yeah but I'm not sure what else has been done quite like this
  • [17:24] GeneKoo Li: So what do you think are reasonable goals for the video project?
  • [17:24] lIHd Sellery: video editing can be fun and satisfying, a form of communication/expression that shares certain things with typing or anything else we do online.
  • [17:24] You: I've been thinking about co-authoring a paper I have in mind vis-a-vis real/virtual distinctions in SL and broader implications for internet law in the abstract, and I think it would be very interesting to co-redact a number of conversations ...
  • [17:25] GeneKoo Li: Yeah, we have to go get that chat logger working
  • [17:25] You: I've participated in and heard about.
  • [17:25] GeneKoo Li: Do you find that the chatting here works differently in a significant way than IM
  • [17:25] lIHd Sellery: does anyone here know anything about file sharing in the EU or the pirate bay situation, I know thepirate bay party is running some free speech, free culture arguments to win votes
  • [17:25] crislc Amdahl is Online
  • [17:26] You: That would help, but to orchestrate and publish them to the wiki, as a start, to sum up the class is an edifying projectc.
  • [17:26] GeneKoo Li: Explain more @ Pirate Bay
  • [17:26] lIHd Sellery: interesting stuff but Sweden is at a very extreme end of the Eu when it comes to file-sharing
  • [17:26] You: Tell us more.
  • [17:26] You: A website?
  • [17:26] You: Do I have a face now?
  • [17:26] lIHd Sellery: Pardon me, Gene, not sure I follow.
  • [17:27] You: Hello USA, David and Geoff
  • [17:27] GeoffMcG Xi: Hiya!
  • [17:27] GeneKoo Li: I'm asking you to eplain the Pirate Bay situation for all of us
  • [17:27] GeneKoo Li: Hi Geoff
  • [17:27] GeoffMcG Xi: hey there
  • [17:27] Travis Ripley: may i sit in?
  • [17:27] GeneKoo Li: Sure Travis everyone is welcome here
  • [17:27] You: Yes, yes.
  • [17:28] lIHd Sellery: Well , Aphilo, the pirate bay, the bittorent tracker site, gave rise or was related to a political party in Swedan
  • [17:28] lIHd Sellery: who are trying to get seats in parliament to exhert some control over the direction of IP legislation in the country
  • [17:28] You: Another kind of 'Howard Dean' phenomenon.
  • [17:28] You: ?
  • [17:29] GeneKoo Li: and so are they a viable political party? this sounds fascinating
  • [17:29] You: I see.
  • [17:29] lIHd Sellery: IP legislation is usually someting handled by legislators and lawyers, but in Sweden they take a more grassroots approach to it
  • [17:29] lIHd Sellery: In part due to the high level of saturuation of computers and internet connections
  • [17:29] GeneKoo Li: Judges have proven pretty bad at it recently, but I'm curious how it might fare in "open court"
  • [17:30] lIHd Sellery: and partly due to the amount of file-sharing average Swedes ehgage in
  • [17:30] You: It may reflect an ethos in that country, as well.
  • [17:30] GeneKoo Li: are you familiar with Sweden's IP regime?
  • [17:30] lIHd Sellery: However the MPAA has decided to try and exert influence over the affair and that led to a bit of a scandal
  • [17:30] GeneKoo Li: How is it differen than US for example?
  • [17:31] GeneKoo Li: MPAA is like the new RIAA
  • [17:31] USA Brody: I can recommend a good book
  • [17:31] lIHd Sellery: as in Sweden there is supposed to be a separation between prosecutors and legislators
  • [17:31] lIHd Sellery: or the police and congrees
  • [17:31] lIHd Sellery: I don't believe you have that sort of thing entrenced in your constitution or law
  • [17:31] lIHd Sellery: in the US
  • [17:32] GeneKoo Li: Well, yes there is a separation between the executive and judicial branches
  • [17:32] GeneKoo Li: i'm sorry, executive and legislative
  • [17:32] GeneKoo Li: but which of these branches does the Swedish IP regime fall under?
  • [17:32] lIHd Sellery: but it seems the MPIA (or is that MPAA) sent some emails to ....
  • [17:32] lIHd Sellery: Oh yes, you have that, but I am talking about a seperation between legislative and police
  • [17:33] lIHd Sellery: In Sweden the legislature is not allowed to tell the police what to do except for broad statements on policy
  • [17:33] lIHd Sellery: not sure that that is the case on the states, maybe someone can fill this in.
  • [17:33] GeneKoo Li: I may be confused but I'm pretty sure the police here fall under executive
  • [17:34] GeneKoo Li: lIHd, are you Swedish? are you in Sweden now?
  • [17:34] lIHd Sellery: oh, I guess so :)
  • [17:34] lIHd Sellery: Neither, just doing some research for an assignment.
  • [17:35] GeneKoo Li: Oh, just curious. I thought you'd said you were in law school in the US but then I thought I was misremembering
  • [17:35] lIHd Sellery: So I guess the situation would be similar to what could happen in the US then if a foreign body tried to influence your police enforcement
  • [17:35] GeneKoo Li: MPAA as foreign body, I guess so... are they considered American?
  • [17:36] lIHd Sellery: Yes I am in the US, you remember correctly, which is making my research a bit more difficult
  • [17:36] lIHd Sellery: yes I believe the last A is for America, though they do have an international body
  • [17:36] GeneKoo Li: ah yes
  • [17:36] lIHd Sellery: can't remember the acronym offhand
  • [17:37] GeneKoo Li: Before we go on I want to check to see if there was anything in particular people wanted to discuss
  • [17:37] lIHd Sellery: Well whathappened ws this american org sent an email to a swedish legislator who then talked to their law enforcement angency and then asome ISPs were raided and a lot fo servers seized, but no charges have been laid yet
  • [17:38] lIHd Sellery: ...sorry I've been monopolizing the convo
  • [17:38] GeneKoo Li: No, it's OK, but wanted to see if anyone had stuff they wanted to cover
  • [17:38] David Spaatz: just checking in
  • [17:38] GeneKoo Li: Aphilo and I were having an interesting IM earlier, I don't know if you mind being put on the spot but are you interested in continuing that in this group?
  • [17:39] GeoffMcG Xi: sorry im sitting here with my head down; im on the phone with aa distressed student.
  • [17:39] You: I'm interested in talking more about code as law, and real/virtual distinctions, and ...
  • [17:40] lIHd Sellery: Gene, you don't know Urs Gaer do you? I think he's a fellow at the Berkman Centre. His name comes up in t some of the AP Articles I've been reading on the PB affair
  • [17:40] GeneKoo Li: No prob Xi I'm obviously doodling here too
  • [17:40] You: the Sweden situation may be an interesting example.
  • [17:40] GeneKoo Li: No lIHd, I just started at the Berkman Center last week
  • [17:40] GeneKoo Li: Hi Yvette
  • [17:40] Yvette Kumsung: Hi
  • [17:40] You: Hi Yvette
  • [17:40] Rupturo Wind: Hello
  • [17:40] Yvette Kumsung: I just came to check if my interviewee was logged in
  • [17:41] Yvette Kumsung: Apparently not ;(
  • [17:41] Rupturo Wind: Interviewee?
  • [17:41] GeneKoo Li: Yeah, how are ppl doing with the interviews? seems like it has been tough getting their attention
  • [17:41] Yvette Kumsung: Argh! Gene! You're a penguin!
  • [17:41] GeneKoo Li: Do you like? I started working on it last night
  • [17:41] Yvette Kumsung: Well, my interviewee said last week that he wouldn't be able to make time until this week
  • [17:42] Yvette Kumsung: So I've been practically logging on every few hours ;(
  • [17:42] Yvette Kumsung: Gene/You look adorable
  • [17:42] GeneKoo Li: HOw about everyone else -- having an easy or hard time of it?
  • [17:43] GeneKoo Li: (Sorry Aphilo we can get back to the code topic, I just wanted to check that everyone was OK)
  • [17:43] You: Certainly...
  • [17:43] Zimmy Zuhal: dad
  • [17:43] Yvette Kumsung: But last night I attended a "press conference" and met Aimee Weber and Anshe Chung
  • [17:43] GeneKoo Li: ah, using your journalism skills to catch ppl unawares?
  • [17:44] Yvette Kumsung: nono, it was an open event
  • [17:44] David Spaatz: where
  • [17:44] lIHd Sellery: Hmmmm, the pirate party has some more interesting info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party
  • [17:44] lIHd Sellery: believe there's an american chapter too
  • [17:44] Zimmy Zuhal: im .........
  • [17:45] Zimmy Zuhal: whats happening here
  • [17:46] GeneKoo Li: Hi Zimmy, we're having office hours for a class
  • [17:46] Zimmy Zuhal: ok
  • [17:46] GeneKoo Li: Either that or all the penguins are assembling here :)
  • [17:46] lIHd Sellery: I think it's a migration
  • [17:46] USA Brody: you should get some pink sox for the penguin gene
  • [17:46] GeneKoo Li: Yeah I have no idea how to make a mini-av
  • [17:46] Zimmy Zuhal: im going to migrat OUT HERE
  • [17:46] GeneKoo Li: Well bye Zimmy :)
  • [17:47] lIHd Sellery: they're pretty cool though.
  • [17:47] GeneKoo Li: Ansible is working on getting us some platforms in the sky where groups can meet privately
  • [17:47] GeneKoo Li: They will be set so only ppl with the right group memberships are allowed on
  • [17:48] You: Cool.
  • [17:48] GeneKoo Li: (I guess that could prove problemmatic for ppl who are joining the group, but we can try to figure that out as we go)
  • [17:48] GeneKoo Li: Well Aphilo I notice you're all here now :)
  • [17:49] GeneKoo Li: Unfortunately it looks to me like Geoff is missing textures, but I dunno if that's just me
  • [17:49] You: Curious things happen in SL :)
  • [17:49] You: Or he's chosen a dalmation suit.
  • [17:50] GeneKoo Li: oh so you can see that.
  • [17:50] GeneKoo Li: OK well Aphilo say more about the code ideas we were kicking around
  • [17:50] GeneKoo Li: HI david just noticed you
  • [17:50] David Spaatz: I am motivated to work on the vid editing project
  • [17:50] David Spaatz: especially from Tampa
  • [17:51] David Spaatz: we are working out the particulars
  • [17:51] GeneKoo Li: Cool glad to hear it
  • [17:51] You: L Lessig suggests that code as law refers to rules and norms, whereas code as law in cyberspace or SL refers to what software and hardware make possible.
  • [17:51] lIHd Sellery: I agree with that statement Aphilo.
  • [17:52] You: This raises interesting questions about the way 'code' relates to real and virtual
  • [17:52] lIHd Sellery: Cyberspace sould have been organised differently, it could have been more restrictive.
  • [17:52] You: Yes.
  • [17:52] lIHd Sellery: instead it is somewhat democratic and open.
  • [17:52] lIHd Sellery: as that's the natureof it's network protocol.
  • [17:53] You: Gene was suggesting earlier that the way hardware and software create code which is easily 'morphable' provides interesting purchase on RL code as law ie norms and rules.
  • [17:54] You: Perhaps they are easily 'morphable,' as well.
  • [17:54] GeneKoo Li: (or, whether or not they are _easily_ morphable, sometimes they do in fact morph whether everyone wants them to or not)
  • [17:55] lIHd Sellery: theycould change or be altered hence the scariness of no net neutrality
  • [17:55] You: Sl is an interesting example, because it's kind of a code in development, even rapid development. A kind of laboratory for watching and participating in code development.
  • [17:55] You: Yes.
  • [17:57] You: Are all the upgrades in SL a kind of viewable developments in an aspect of internet law in the abstract?
  • [17:58] You: How unique is this virtuality relative to the way code as law in RL takes shape?
  • [17:58] GeneKoo Li: Right, I guess one way I was trying to make the analogy is to point out that in SL, "code" is like the laws of physics in RL
  • [17:59] GeneKoo Li: Law then is something that operates within the realm of what is physically possible
  • [17:59] David Spaatz: goodbye all. must study for midterm. thank you
  • [18:00] You: I see what you mean, but I wonder if the code in SL can develop in many unforseen and unpredictable ways, where Newtonian physics representas a predictable set of processes?
  • [18:00] You: Bye David.
  • [18:00] GeneKoo Li: Yes, well, the analogy isn't perfect. Still, I don't so much mean the laws of physics so much as what we are technologically capable of doing
  • [18:01] GeneKoo Li: I was noting (some of you have heard this before) that it used to be the case that music needed a physical embodiment
  • [18:01] You: But the code as law in SL is very openended - this world could take on characteristics / culture or any number of science fiction worlds, none of which are predictable.
  • [18:01] GeneKoo Li: This enabled the record industry to create a business based on sales of that physical reality
  • [18:01] lIHd Sellery: but does law's influence extend further than that, does present law constrain future development or our imagination?
  • [18:01] GeneKoo Li: However, along comes the MP3 and *poof* as far as the record companies are concerned, the laws of gravity have reversed
  • [18:01] GeneKoo Li: So, no, the laws of physics haven't changed, but what we are able to do has
  • [18:02] GeneKoo Li: And then that changes the underlying assumptions on which our traditional understanding of IP is based
  • [18:02] GeneKoo Li: Man, am i losing my audience or what ? :)
  • [18:02] lIHd Sellery: N,o, I'm with you.
  • [18:02] GeneKoo Li: No, Im eant US and Yvette just left us :(
  • [18:03] lIHd Sellery: but I think that in a sense the general publics notion of IP is based on the pas on our history
  • [18:03] You: Yes, the constraints are technical, but not necesarrily imagination-wise or idea-wise. The possibility of combining symbols/representations in infinite way...s, now mediated by SL programming is open.
  • [18:03] lIHd Sellery: Soney taught us that time shifting was OK
  • [18:03] You: Me too.
  • [18:03] lIHd Sellery: and When file-sharing came along everyone went "well this must be okay too then"
  • [18:03] GeoffMcG Xi: wow, sorry for that delay. i expected it to be a ifive minute call
  • [18:04] lIHd Sellery: I mean "the Sony case"
  • [18:04] GeneKoo Li: Yes, thanks Aphilo for that observation -- it is when the reality underlying law changes that we suddenly see that we have let our imaginations be cramped by what is rather than what migt be
  • [18:04] You: Whereas that's not possible vis-a-vis the material world.
  • [18:04] You: WElcome back, Geoff.
  • [18:04] GeneKoo Li: RIght, and when you experience something like SL you might broaden your horizons on what might be possible in RL, too
  • [18:04] tree Sprawl gave you Felowen Dodge Artistry, Creamy Dreamz (126, 108, 27).
  • [18:04] GeoffMcG Xi: thank you. actually, that call was a situation where having an SL forum for my class would have been very helpful.
  • [18:05] GeneKoo Li: We're talking about "code" and "law"
  • [18:05] GeoffMcG Xi: lessig's area of expertise, eh?
  • [18:05] GeneKoo Li: Last week on one of the groups we also talked about "law" vs. "rules", norms, mores
  • [18:05] You: It might be interesting to compare virutal worlds, and novel developments.
  • [18:06] GeneKoo Li: You should come to the State of PLay Conference in NYC then :)
  • [18:06] GeoffMcG Xi: are we discussing code v. law in SL environments?
  • [18:06] GeoffMcG Xi: or also RL?
  • [18:06] GeneKoo Li: yes
  • [18:06] GeneKoo Li: yes too
  • [18:06] GeoffMcG Xi: how does code translate into law in RL?
  • [18:06] lIHd Sellery: legislators usualy react to it
  • [18:07] GeoffMcG Xi: but unlike laws, legiislators rarely make code.
  • [18:07] lIHd Sellery: or in some cases try to anticiapte it, though in terms of DB legislation with no apparent success
  • [18:07] GeoffMcG Xi: DB?
  • [18:07] lIHd Sellery: Database
  • [18:07] GeoffMcG Xi: oic
  • [18:07] GeneKoo Li: Actually Geoff some research I'm really excited about doing down the road looks at how legislators -- or at least administrative agencies -- are very much generating a lot of code to embody laws
  • [18:08] You: Here's a lessig reference point again: L Lessig suggests that code as law refers to rules and norms, whereas code as law in cyberspace or SL refers to what software and hardware make possible.
  • [18:08] You: But language is code, as well. Is language a kind of law?
  • [18:08] GeoffMcG Xi: rules and norms, like driving on the right hand side of the street?
  • [18:08] GeneKoo Li: Yes,I think that's where we left off our conversation
  • [18:08] You: Yes.
  • [18:09] You: Hello Alan
  • [18:09] Alan Lederberg: hello aphilo
  • [18:09] GeoffMcG Xi: and norms like shaking hands when you meet someone.
  • [18:09] GeneKoo Li: I was mentioning that political theorists like Jurgen Habermas have forwarded the idea that if indeed language is a sort of code then we have almost a natural ability to govern ourselves as well
  • [18:09] You: I'm also interested in the real virtual distinction, which SL highlights, by way of comparison.
  • [18:09] You: Yes.
  • [18:10] GeoffMcG Xi: very theoretical gene
  • [18:10] GeneKoo Li: The very fact that we can communicate and understand each other is politically meaningful
  • [18:10] GeoffMcG Xi: as an empiricist, im a little skeptical
  • [18:10] GeneKoo Li: Well my knowledge of Habermas is about 10 yrs old
  • [18:10] GeoffMcG Xi: and mine is extremely limited.
  • [18:10] You: Habermas thinks that the public sphere will also create a kind of self-governance
  • [18:12] You: That the possibility of public discourse, which arose with the enlightenment, and included ideas of poliltical freedoms, and reason . . .
  • [18:12] You: continues to shape significantly possibilities shaped then.
  • [18:13] You: Geoff, is the Internet not fairly open, at least in the US?
  • [18:14] GeoffMcG Xi: im not sure what the question is asking. in what way could it be open?
  • [18:14] GeneKoo Li: Open as in not like China?
  • [18:14] GeneKoo Li: content filtering / censorship?
  • [18:14] GeoffMcG Xi: or access on a grand scale?
  • [18:14] lIHd Sellery: hmm I guess then code is about on one level understanding and what we do to govern our communication is jsut something we do o enhance that understanding.
  • [18:15] You: Where does our scepticism vis-a-vis politically meaninful communication as an empiricist focus on?
  • [18:15] lIHd Sellery: it was created to be open right, so that is wouldn't be easy to shut down
  • [18:15] GeneKoo Li: wtf was that?
  • [18:15] GeoffMcG Xi: well, first i'd like a working definition of politically meaningful communication.
  • [18:16] GeneKoo Li: sorry something huge just rezed in and out
  • [18:16] You: That was interesting. :) Ansible?
  • [18:16] lIHd Sellery: didn't see it on my end.
  • [18:16] GeoffMcG Xi: nor i
  • [18:16] Alan Lederberg: me neither
  • [18:16] Watch: Luka Vale, say 'Hide' to hide me, or 'Show' to make me show. Or just right-click and sit on me to use me.
  • [18:16] You: right behind you folks.
  • [18:16] GeneKoo Li: Something I mentioned to Aphilo before v-a-v code and communication is something that SquareTrade developed for Ebay
  • [18:16] GeneKoo Li: The ST folks noticed that almost all ebay disputes fell into about 10 major types
  • [18:16] You: How would you define it Geoff?
  • [18:17] GeneKoo Li: They then realized that they could create processes to handle each kind of dispute in an automated fashion
  • [18:17] GeneKoo Li: Using computer code, they developed a method for walking people through a communication process and resolve some astonishing % of disputes
  • [18:17] GeneKoo Li: I think it's like 99%+
  • [18:18] GeneKoo Li: That's one example of software code intersecting with human behavior / culture / norms
  • [18:18] lIHd Sellery: sounds like my negotiation class could take a lesson from ST.
  • [18:18] GeoffMcG Xi: well, that's exactly my point. my definition of what it a) meaningful; b) politiical; and c) communication is likely to be different from another person's. until we get a clear definition, I'd find it difficult to empirically analyze the phenomenon.
  • [18:18] You: So code gives rise in virtual worlds to a form of pragmatic rule production?
  • [18:18] lIHd Sellery: is there anywhere I could get some info on what exactly ST does or how it's code works?
  • [18:19] GeneKoo Li: Aphilo - that's one way of looking at it, yes
  • [18:19] You: What about 1st amendment rights, at the root, Geoff?
  • [18:19] GeneKoo Li: Code can also limit what laws are possible, and on the flip side, embody laws imposed by states
  • [18:19] lIHd Sellery: So then, why are computers so much better at it then when are if it's us who program them?
  • [18:19] GeneKoo Li: lIHd, I heard about the ST thing through the State of Play academy, visit the rest of the Moodle site and you should find stuffa bout them
  • [18:19] lIHd Sellery: At lot of the negotiations I study turn out pretty badly.
  • [18:20] lIHd Sellery: thanks, Gene.
  • [18:20] GeneKoo Li: What makes SquareTrade possible is that the disputes are limited in type and also very predictable, very amenable to rules
  • [18:20] You: Yes, a distributive network is potentially very difficult to control, censor, yest I think China and Saudi Arabia, have done so.
  • [18:20] GeneKoo Li: I ahve a friend right now is working on another process that is designed to walk 2 ppl with opposite POV on a particular issue and help them have a serious discussion
  • [18:20] GeoffMcG Xi: yes, first amendment rights can be grounded in a theory of political communication. meikeljohn has an article about the first amendment creating a Town Hall phenomenon. Blasi writes of the "checking value"
  • [18:21] GeneKoo Li: Likewise, the Berkman Center developed software to facilitate discussion in class called the "Rotisserie" that encodes some very simple process (everyone writes something, then everyone reads another person's response, etc.
  • [18:21] You: Political freedoms, and ideas that question and reshape norms, are less amenable to computer code.
  • [18:21] You: Yes, Geoff.
  • [18:22] GeneKoo Li: Aphilo - but this is where Lessig is particularly fearful, that code can be used to clamp down on freedoms rather than promote them, right?
  • [18:22] GeoffMcG Xi: amenable to computer code?
  • [18:22] GeoffMcG Xi: in that they facilitate political discussion.
  • [18:22] GeoffMcG Xi: i'm with you on that
  • [18:22] GeoffMcG Xi: 100%
  • [18:22] You: referring to Gene's amenable to rules in the ST example.
  • [18:22] GeneKoo Li: As an empirical matter, there is the paradox that anyone who's trained in facilitation would understand
  • [18:23] GeoffMcG Xi: so code is instrumental in achieving political freedoms.
  • [18:23] GeneKoo Li: To run a meeting with maximum participation, the facilitator often has to impose more order and have more rules
  • [18:23] GeneKoo Li: anarchy isn't always the best means to freedom, from that POV
  • [18:23] GeoffMcG Xi: and this anarchy os one of the main concerns I have about SL as an educational tool.
  • [18:23] GeneKoo Li: Hey unfortunately it's getting late here and I haven't had dinner yet
  • [18:24] Sariah Chihuly: Hi, sorry, had trouble with the download
  • [18:24] You: Yes, the big brother effect / Foucault's Panopticon / Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent are examples of how this might happen in less public ways.
  • [18:24] GeneKoo Li: Hi Sariah
  • [18:24] GeoffMcG Xi: np. how are ya
  • [18:24] GeneKoo Li: I'm afraid I have to run, but it seems like you don't need me to have a cogent and interesting conversation
  • [18:24] Sariah Chihuly: doing ok, just really frustrated at 45 minutes with a download.
  • [18:24] You: Meaning, Geoff?
  • [18:24] You: Hello Sariah
  • [18:25] Sariah Chihuly: anyway.
  • [18:25] GeoffMcG Xi: what needed clarification apphilo?
  • [18:25] Alan Lederberg: me too on the download
  • [18:25] GeneKoo Li: OK, see you all later
  • [18:25] You: Geoff, you asked at *[18:22] GeoffMcG Xi: amenable to computer code?
  • [18:25] GeoffMcG Xi: bye gene
  • [18:25] GeneKoo Li: Becca's OH are Tue 8-10
  • [18:25] You: Goodbye Gene.
  • [18:25] GeneKoo Li: 'night!
  • [18:26] Sariah Chihuly: bye gene, sorry I was late.
  • [18:26] You: Thanks for having office hours.
  • [18:26] Sariah Chihuly: I will see you on Tuesday?
  • [18:26] GeneKoo Li: It's my job :)
  • [18:26] GeneKoo Li is Offline
  • [18:26] GeoffMcG Xi: i was just asking if the phrase "aamenable to computer code" meant anything more than computers can be useful
  • [18:26] Sariah Chihuly: yeah well, sundays and all and dinner -- thanks.
  • [18:26] Sariah Chihuly: where did amenable come from?
  • [18:27] GeoffMcG Xi: thats the term thaat was used when ii got here.
  • [18:27] Sariah Chihuly: HMMM.
  • [18:27] Sariah Chihuly: my cat just stepped on the caps lock.
  • [18:27] Sariah Chihuly: not my evening
  • [18:28] Sariah Chihuly: doesn't amenable mean sort of friendly to?
  • [18:28] You: Gene mentioned something about ST, a trading web site which developed their own rules for arbitrating disputes, being amenable to rules.
  • [18:29] You: responsive to.
  • [18:29] Sariah Chihuly: ah yes, that works, like this one in some ways.
  • [18:29] Sariah Chihuly: where everyone voluntarily follows the rules.
  • [18:30] Sariah Chihuly: how were you weaving code into that?
  • [18:31] You: I'm curious what SL code and software and hardware as code producers, make possible with regards to virtuality and open-endedness.
  • [18:31] GeoffMcG Xi: let me admit confusion and ignorance
  • [18:31] GeoffMcG Xi: i'm still not completely clear on our concept of code.
  • [18:32] Sariah Chihuly: oh. me neither, Geoff, not sure where it fits here.
  • [18:32] GeoffMcG Xi: to me, code is the programming language (or many programming languages) that are used to create programs that serve some speciific purpose.
  • [18:32] Sariah Chihuly: or do you mean in the course with all the comments of code is law.?
  • [18:32] GeoffMcG Xi: now, i can see some analoigies to be made to law
  • [18:33] You: Lessig, I think, focuses quite broadly on the significance of code.
  • [18:33] GeoffMcG Xi: perhaps too broadly? I haven't read the book (it's on order).
  • [18:33] Sariah Chihuly: right, but I think in the context of the course, which is in the virtual world, the rule code is law -- means that if
  • [18:33] GeoffMcG Xi: yes, i'm with you sariah.
  • [18:34] GeoffMcG Xi: we can fly in SL because code allows us to fly.
  • [18:34] GeoffMcG Xi: but lessig takes it further, yes?
  • [18:34] Alan Lederberg: a kind of framework for behavior within a space
  • [18:34] Sariah Chihuly: you can manipulate the virtual world in the same way a good lawyer can in the rl
  • [18:35] GeoffMcG Xi: but, alan, that doesnt go far enough. we have norms of behavior even in SL that are not the product of code.
  • [18:35] Alan Lederberg: yes
  • [18:35] You: Here's one starting of this conversation, which gets at some virutal real distinctions I'm interested in: L Lessig suggests that code as law refers to rules and norms, whereas code as law in cyberspace or SL refers to what software and hardware make poss
  • [18:35] You: L Lessig suggests that code as law refers to rules and norms, whereas code as law in cyberspace or SL refers to what software and hardware make possible.
  • [18:35] Sariah Chihuly: well, but the rules of behavior are enforced by code
  • [18:36] GeoffMcG Xi: so code encapsulates both law and those things that software and hardware make possible?
  • [18:36] You: How norms take shape in SL is interesting - people on
  • [18:36] You: Berkman are taking on interesting forms and clothing.
  • [18:37] You: For Lessig, I think.
  • [18:37] GeoffMcG Xi: then i wonder: what is the commonality between Law and those other things?
  • [18:37] Sariah Chihuly: I also think that one of the issues is that law from the rl hastrouble in sl/virtual worlds -- what country's laws taek precedence, etc.
  • [18:37] GeoffMcG Xi: rhetoric? language?
  • [18:38] GeoffMcG Xi: sariah, i think that is a good point. in fact, i think it is possible to start from scratch in SL
  • [18:39] You: Yes, language . . .and to step back a level, does language have similar 'properties' as law?
  • [18:39] GeoffMcG Xi: the problem i see on the horizon relates to economic matters
  • [18:39] GeoffMcG Xi: properties such as what aphilo
  • [18:39] You: And to step back another level of abstractions, are ideas code like language is code?
  • [18:40] GeoffMcG Xi: im haveing a great deal of difficulty with this conceptualization. it seems like we are talking at a level of abstraction that i cannot grasp.
  • [18:40] Sariah Chihuly: ideas can only be code once they are coded.
  • [18:40] You: code as law, for lessig, has 'properties' of rule and norm production, in a sense.
  • [18:41] GeoffMcG Xi: and what is a rule? a norm?
  • [18:41] Sariah Chihuly: and I am wishing I had read lessig --
  • [18:41] GeoffMcG Xi: i was thinking of assigning it to my students, but i had better read it first!
  • [18:41] Bjoern Sonnerstein gave you BLACKJACK,80% ODS MONEY DOUBLERS, 200L random for a visitor.
  • [18:43] You: Yes, Sariah . . but then to bring another interesting technological development to our discussion, brainfingers.com is a technology that allows one to communicate one's thinking to a computer without words or gestures, thus encoding ideas, in a sense.
  • [18:43] You: I'll send you a summary of code as law, for starters.
  • [18:43] GeoffMcG Xi: that would be great.
  • [18:44] You: But perhaps we might keep our conversation to L Lessig suggests that code as law refers to rules and norms, whereas code as law in cyberspace or SL refers to what software and hardware make possible.
  • [18:45] GeoffMcG Xi: i dont haave difficulty understanding the code as law in cyberspace
  • [18:45] GeoffMcG Xi: that to me seems a basic concept.
  • [18:46] GeoffMcG Xi: and raises some interesting questions about who makes the code. is democratic governance desirable in such a space?
  • [18:46] lIHd Sellery: ttyl everyone
  • [18:46] Sariah Chihuly: right, but it would have a hard time arguing with the 9th circuit.
  • [18:46] lIHd Sellery is Offline
  • [18:46] GeoffMcG Xi: bye!
  • [18:46] GeoffMcG Xi: it?
  • [18:46] You: Bye, IIHd
  • [18:47] GeoffMcG Xi: " it would have a hard time arguing with the 9th circuit." what is "it"?
  • [18:47] Sariah Chihuly: code.
  • [18:48] GeoffMcG Xi: code would have a difficult time arguing anywhere!
  • [18:48] Sariah Chihuly: wasn't that what we were talking about? code = law?
  • [18:48] GeoffMcG Xi: for code is just a tool
  • [18:48] Sariah Chihuly: which it is probably, in sl, and online, but the transition gets very fuzzy.
  • [18:48] GeoffMcG Xi: yes, im not sure i see code in RL.
  • [18:49] Sariah Chihuly: I am really sorry to drop in and then drop out, -- I had an hour and a half to be here, but the stupid download took most of it.
  • [18:49] Sariah Chihuly: so I am going to take off. before tuesday I will read lessig.
  • [18:49] GeoffMcG Xi: np, this has been interesting.
  • [18:49] Sariah Chihuly: then maybe i'll have more clues.
  • [18:50] You: I'm going to take off, too. Let's continue this interesting conversation.
  • [18:50] You: Perhaps on Tuesday.
  • [18:50] GeoffMcG Xi: Aphilo, can you post from the beginning?
  • [18:50] Sariah Chihuly: I would like that.
  • [18:50] Sariah Chihuly: how did the video group do, btw
  • [18:50] GeoffMcG Xi: when on Tue?
  • [18:50] GeoffMcG Xi: i wasnt here for the vids.
  • [18:51] You: Yes.
  • [18:51] Sariah Chihuly: 8 est or 5 sl time.
  • [18:51] You: Yes, at * est
  • [18:51] You: 8
  • [18:51] GeoffMcG Xi: great. i'll update the wiki with tue's meeting.
  • [18:52] Sariah Chihuly: thanks
  • [18:52] You: Sounds good. See you both then, perhaps.