January 8, 2007 discussion

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[[Eon Berkman has just relayed the story of King Solomon's judgment from the Book of 1 Kings 3: 16-28.[1]

[17:20] Eon Berkman: what do you say, did sol get it right?

[17:20] Nate Grigges: well, I would say he probably did

[17:20] Eon Berkman: what makes you think so?

[17:20] Nate Grigges: the evidence seems to have been the responses of the two women

[17:20] Eon Berkman: yes

[17:20] Nate Grigges: presumably a mother that loves her child would not want to see it cut in half

[17:21] You: but what does that evidence really tell us?

[17:21] Eon Berkman: she'd rather see it raised by the woman who would have seen it killed?

[17:21] Nate Grigges: that seems to be what solomon thought, it's a tough decision either way

[17:22] Chinadoll Lulu raises her hand

[17:22] Eon Berkman: mabsuta, is there anything else you would like to know about these women

[17:22] Mabsuta Nakamura: I would say there was no "evidence", but reasoning was used to determine who was the mother.

[17:22] You: so who is the "true" mother?

[17:22] Eon Berkman: what facts can you imagine that would change your mind about whether solomon got it right?

[17:23] Eon Berkman: others, please pitch in

[17:23] GeneKoo Li: Whether the killer mom is sociopathic

[17:23] You: a defining birthmark on one of the children; DNA

[17:23] Rebecca Berkman: perhaps someone could recognize the baby who had seen it before?

[17:23] Rebecca Berkman: someone impartial?

[17:23] Bruce Flyer: the testimony of the child?

[17:23] Chinadoll Lulu: no it is a baby

[17:24] GeneKoo Li: "ga ga goo goo"?

[17:24] Tetero Lesse: Another odd thing about the story is that the mother of the dead child went to all that trouble to get a live one and then was quite willing to see it too dead.

[17:24] JoelAndrew March: i'd just say that on the question of whether there was "evidence" or "reasoning", we always have to reason from evidence in some way.

[17:24] Teresa Cinquetti: lol Gene

[17:24] GeneKoo Li: seriously the child CAN "testify" yes?

[17:24] Denise Bohm: perhaps the baby was a non-wanted pregnancy, so the mom did not want the child

[17:24] You: ok then, how do we reason from this evidence?

[17:24] Eon Berkman: tetero makes a good point

[17:24] Chinadoll Lulu: the child was an infant as recorded from the Bible

[17:25] Eon Berkman: definitely and infant

[17:25] Denise Bohm: a bastard kid, maybe

[17:25] Teresa Cinquetti: what was to be gained from raising the child?

[17:25] You: labor

[17:25] Rebecca Berkman: it seems like the mom who wanted to split the baby just didn't want the other mom to have what she couldn't have -- maybe she didn't really want the baby.

[17:25] You: love and affection

[17:25] Joe Petrel is Online

[17:25] You: how do you know that becca?

[17:25] Denise Bohm: the mom could be in post partum depression

[17:26] You: on what evidence?

[17:26] Chinadoll Lulu: we have to look at the case with the -2000+ B.C. mind set, cannot use today's mind to view it

[17:26] Eon Berkman: or maybe she was very religious and thought solomon, king of israel, spoke with the word of god

[17:26] Rebecca Berkman: because she was willing to see it killed rather than have the other woman have it, geoff.

[17:26] GeneKoo Li: regardless of who is the "real" mother, it seems we feel the one who would have the baby's life saved is the "right" mother

[17:26] Eon Berkman: who knows the story of abraham and isaac?

[17:26] GeneKoo Li: it's the more acceptable answer

[17:26] Daisyblue Hefferman: there really was no ecidence either way, so solomon decided what he thought was best for the child

[17:26] Chinadoll Lulu: me

[17:27] Rebecca Berkman: i do.

[17:27] Chinadoll Lulu: i do as well

[17:27] You: abraham and sarai begot isaac.

[17:27] GeneKoo Li: the story of abraham and isaac is perhaps the freakiest story in the bible :O

[17:27] Chinadoll Lulu: freakiest, no

[17:27] Mabsuta Nakamura: Abraham should have had social services called on him to remove Isaac from the home

[17:27] Bruce Flyer: in one view, the woman willing to let the child be killed might be thought to have been a more devout person

[17:27] Denise Bohm: lol

[17:27] You: god will take care of the sacrifice, eh?

[17:27] Nate Grigges: the Bible contains many freaky stories... I wouldn't say one single one is clearly the freakiest

[17:27] GeneKoo Li: but "devout" is not the measure of truth

[17:28] GeneKoo Li: solomon is not deciding on the basis of who is more devout, but who is more likely the mother

[17:28] Denise Bohm: This reminds me of the movie Sophie's Choice

[17:28] Bruce Flyer: are we assuming each woman is sure of the truth?

[17:28] You: more likely, or the better mom?

[17:28] JoelAndrew March: gene, what makes you sure of that?

[17:29] Rebecca Berkman: I don't think we can assume that, Bruce.

[17:29] GeneKoo Li: I'm not sure, but that would be my hypothesis; either that or as I said before, it's the more acceptable answer

[17:29] Chinadoll Lulu: so what about the story of Isacc, Professor

[17:29] Tetero Lesse: : Every folk literature I'm acquainted with is full of freaky stories if 21st century sensibilities are applied.

[17:29] Rebecca Berkman: All we know is what they say, but they might be lying.

[17:29] Bruce Flyer: so both children were of same gender

[17:29] Chinadoll Lulu: the bible did not record which gender

[17:30] Chinadoll Lulu: i think it was a boy

[17:30] Eon Berkman: abraham was told by god to sacrifice his beloved son isaac, and was just about to plunge the knife

[17:30] Bruce Flyer: was there a tradition of sharing responsibility for raising children with others in a group?

[17:30] GeneKoo Li: I think Bruce has an interesting question -- what if neither mother knows?

[17:30] Eon Berkman: when god intervened and relented.

[17:30] Chinadoll Lulu: yes Professor, what is the question though

[17:30] GeneKoo Li: Then solomon would be deciding on the basis of fitness, not truth...

[17:31] Eon Berkman: the woman who was willing to go along with solomon's plan perhaps was taking a page from abraham

[17:31] You: the mom who didnt object to splitting the child may have been putting faith in god (and hence, in Solomon) by expecting the child's life would be saved.

[17:31] Chinadoll Lulu: that story is one of the first story to previel the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ for us.... that the lamb was prepared as a Sacrifice rather than Isacc.

[17:31] Teresa Cinquetti: one thing to add about habing children at that time and this is an assumption on my part based on what I know of my asian ethnicitym is that children were and are raised to care for their parents when they are older to provide the care and support so

[17:31] Rebecca Berkman: So God makes the opposite decision from Solomon -- except that maybe it is different to do what God says then to do what a King says...

[17:31] Chinadoll Lulu: the woman, sarah, did not know what is going on, as recorded by the Bible

[17:31] Teresa Cinquetti: if one kills the child there is no care or support

[17:31] JoelAndrew March: what if God had told Abraham: "hey, you don't get to keep Isaac anymore. I'm giving him to another dad."

[17:32] Bruce Flyer: i wonder what other question Solomon might have asked.

[17:32] Eon Berkman: now i've heard a number of you say "best interest of the child"

[17:32] GeneKoo Li: It seems the distinction b/t "God" and "King" is important to distinguish Solomon from Abraham

[17:32] Rebecca Berkman: It seems like Abraham would have agreed to it if God said so, JoelAndrew.

[17:33] Chinadoll Lulu: Solomon based his decision on Love and hatard.

[17:33] GeneKoo Li: "Best interest of the child" seems a very modern conception

[17:33] GeneKoo Li: Children were property

[17:33] Chinadoll Lulu: from his understanding of God and the wisdom God has given to him.

[17:33] Daisyblue Hefferman: but he had no actual evidence either way

[17:33] Rebecca Berkman: GeneKoo, perhaps when it is matter of life or death it is not quite so modern an idea...

[17:34] You: y?

[17:34] Daisyblue Hefferman: he had to base his decision on the godd of the child

[17:34] Daisyblue Hefferman: good

[17:34] Eon Berkman: suppose that just at the point before solomon rendered his judgment that he took a recess

[17:34] GeneKoo Li: Well, even on the basis of property you might still use parental love to adjudicate

[17:34] Eon Berkman: came back into chambers with you as his law clerk

[17:34] Eon Berkman: and asked you to draft a brief opinion for him

[17:35] Bruce Flyer: assuming the child would ultimately help the mother, perhaps the question is each woman's attitude toward the welfare of the other woman

[17:35] GeneKoo Li: (do a lexis search and find the case of God v. Abraham...?)

[17:35] Eon Berkman: whart would you say?

[17:35] Eon Berkman: i, solomon, lord of isreal, award the child to mother #1 because ...

[17:35] You: "sol, recuse yourself and go to Boca for a week; this case is going tojeopardize your pension"

[17:35] Nate Grigges: I don't think there is a guarantee that he made the right decision, but I think he had as good a method as anyone could have conceived at the time

[17:36] Rebecca Berkman: I don't think I understand the question -- do you mean where the only evidence was the responses of the women to his one question? And with that we draft the opinion?

[17:36] Chinadoll Lulu: beacasue "mother #1 would not want to see the child to be killed, and....."

[17:36] You: nah, he escaped criticism because he didnt give his reasoning.

[17:36] Eon Berkman: yes

[17:36] Eon Berkman: therefore?

[17:36] GeneKoo Li: The case seems to rest on "common sense" assumption that the real mother wouldn't want her child killed

[17:36] Bruce Flyer: speaking as one without authority?

[17:36] JoelAndrew March: it was like arbitration today.

[17:37] Eon Berkman: so is solomon deciding which is the biological mother or which is the "best" mother

[17:37] You: he doesnt tell us.

[17:37] You: he just resolves the case.

[17:37] Nate Grigges: I think he is assuming they are the same person in this case

[17:37] GeneKoo Li: which is the mother we would accept as the proper mother -- clearly the public agreed with his decision

[17:38] Tetero Lesse: I think there is an implicit assumption that bio mom == best mom

[17:38] Bruce Flyer: why did the other woman accept the decision?

[17:38] Nate Grigges: but I guess his question was most directed at the "best" mother

[17:38] You: oh? why say that gene?

[17:38] You: the text says they all thought sol was wise, not that they agreed.

[17:38] GeneKoo Li: why say the public agreed? wasn't he hailed for this decision?

[17:38] You: is that the same?

[17:38] Rebecca Berkman: or at least an assumption that the reaction of mom #1 isi have it starting at somehow the instinctual response of a biological mother.

[17:38] Eon Berkman: absolutely,

[17:38] Mabsuta Nakamura: Where were the fathers of these babies when the case was presented to Sol?

[17:39] Eon Berkman: they stood in awe because they could see the wisdom of god in him to do justice

[17:39] Eon Berkman: but here's the point

[17:39] Eon Berkman: he really has very little evidence to go on

[17:39] Tetero Lesse: I think they were both harlots (in the bible story)

[17:39] JoelAndrew March: ???

[17:39] Mabsuta Nakamura: Would a father in ancient times be willing to raise someone else's baby?

[17:39] Eon Berkman: the first woman may have been phobic about the sight blood

[17:39] Rebecca Berkman: but no one can prove him wrong either!

[17:40] Eon Berkman: the second woman may have been devout and taken every word that solomon said as the word of god

[17:40] GeneKoo Li: ...the second may have been sociopathic...

[17:40] JoelAndrew March: it's curious to me that he wanted to craft a decision based on some sort of logic instead of just saying "I prayed about it and got this answer"

[17:40] Eon Berkman: that too, we just don't know, and neither did solomon

[17:40] Rebecca Berkman: the first may have thought she was going to be punished for lying and tried to get out of a bad situation.

[17:40] Eon Berkman: so there you are as clerk writing the opinion

[17:40] GeneKoo Li: joelandrew, after "proving" his wisdom I think he'd have the legitimacy to do that next time :)

[17:41] Rebecca Berkman: good point, JoelAndrew.

[17:41] You: wait, what written opinion. there was none.

[17:41] Bruce Flyer: is the point of the opinion to create logical precedent?

[17:41] GeneKoo Li: oh my...

[17:41] Chinadoll Lulu: Professor, may i quote the exact text

[17:41] Rebecca Berkman: i think the opinion is an exercise for us....

[17:41] Chinadoll Lulu: since the text is a lil different from what you told

[17:41] Mabsuta Nakamura: In Hebrew please chinadoll lul

[17:41] Teresa Cinquetti: Maybe this is too deep but its a great discussion since the bible typically offers lessons in simple terms

[17:41] Eon Berkman: go gor it chinadoll

[17:42] Chinadoll Lulu: 26 The woman whose son it was, in the anguish she felt for it, said to the king, "Please, my lord, give her the living child--please do not kill it!" The other, however, said, "It shall be neither mine nor yours. Divide it!" 27 The king then answered, "Give the first one the living child! By no means kill it, for she is the mother." 28 When all Israel heard the judgment the king had given, they were in awe of him, because they saw that the king had in him the wisdom of God for giving judgment.

[17:42] You: textualism at 4000 years!

[17:42] Chinadoll Lulu: this is from the New American Version

[17:42] Chinadoll Lulu: it said

[17:42] Chinadoll Lulu: frm the other woman

[17:42] Chinadoll Lulu: It shall be NEITHER MINE NOR YOURS, DIVIDE IT

[17:42] Chinadoll Lulu: it did not say it is fair

[17:42] Chinadoll Lulu: it makes a big difference

[17:43] Chinadoll Lulu: in a way she gave it up

[17:43] Eon Berkman: what is the significance of the difference you see

[17:43] Bruce Flyer: so the women (at least one of them) see the child a property?

[17:43] Nate Grigges: it sounds to me like the second woman was acting out of spite, not devotion to Solomon

[17:43] Rebecca Berkman: she seems happy as long as the other woman doesn't get the child, she doesn't care about getting it herself.

[17:43] Teresa Cinquetti: children were property then same as they are today in impoverished nations

[17:43] Chinadoll Lulu: also the people were in awe of the King, NOT only he has wisdom, but also giving good judgement from God.

[17:44] Chinadoll Lulu: just to clarify some comments before

[17:44] Mabsuta Nakamura: Any woman who wants a baby split in two, cannot mother that child. A child split in two would not be property.

[17:44] GeneKoo Li: But the ppl are in awe because the intuitive rightness of his decision proves his godliness, not v.v.

[17:44] Denise Bohm: boys were more well considered than girls...preferred

[17:44] Nate Grigges: property in the sense that they had no rights and were the responsibility of the parents, but I don't think parents viewed them as they would a lamp

[17:45] Joe Petrel is Offline

[17:45] Eon Berkman: does solomon's wisdom lie then in his choosing the decision the people want

[17:45] Bruce Flyer: what a burden to be thought to speak for God

[17:45] Nate Grigges: I wouldn't get too carried away using the term "property" for children

[17:45] GeneKoo Li: If his godliness were the underlying basis of his wisdom, the story would have no resonance with us. He could have easily flipped the baby and said heads, woman 1, tails, woman 2

[17:45] Eon Berkman: and in not explaining why he did it

[17:45] Denise Bohm: girls could be more 'property' than boys

[17:46] Rebecca Berkman: i think most people feel like the lesson is pretty clear -- not totally unexplained. there isn't a big difference b/w the biological mother and good mother explanations.

[17:46] You: well, we are assuming that he was not asked afterwards why he gave that judgment

[17:46] GeneKoo Li: (Presumably Solomon made a lot of wise judgments and this one survived the test of time to make it into the bible)

[17:46] Denise Bohm: we are assuming Sol did not ask any other questions... not wise

[17:47] Chinadoll Lulu: Eon, good question... but i do not think solomon worrys about what people think at that point ---- based on his personality and character as recorded in the Bible

[17:47] Tetero Lesse: Judegement seems to be very impt inthe old testament...there's a whole book of Judges

[17:47] Tetero Lesse: Is judgement the same as justice?

[17:47] Teresa Cinquetti: the entire bible is a lesson in morality and stories to provide those guidleines

[17:47] Rebecca Berkman: Interesting observation, Denise! Maybe it was wise for him not to ask any more questions -- he may have been wrong on the facts in this case but done more good by deciding it this way.

[17:48] You: (we're much more contrarian than law school classes!)

[17:48] GeneKoo Li: in re: Tetero, I'm curious if anyone feels the decision was UNJUST

[17:48] Chinadoll Lulu: T, i must add that the Bible, in fact the main theme of the Bible, is not a living guideline, but a Salvation plan

[17:48] Teresa Cinquetti: that is a pov

[17:48] JoelAndrew March: chinadoll, I think the writers of the bible "tell" us what we should think: "Then spake the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said . . ." which makes it hard for us to step away and see the story in a different way.

[17:48] Bruce Flyer: perhaps the point is that religious judgment is grounded in reason at its best

[17:48] Alan Lederberg: It seems like the woman who was willing to give up the child was also making a sacrifice of the child, not to death, but to the other woman..

[17:48] You: or that religious judgment is not at all grounded in reason.

[17:49] Nic Marx: solomon's not really deducing, he's making a statement about how a mother should be - a biological mother should place the interests of the child above hers

[17:49] Teresa Cinquetti: its spiritual and therefore emotional

[17:49] GeneKoo Li: If you were religious in inclination, you might frame it as reason is grounded in religion, but it's tautological either way...

[17:49] Eon Berkman: yes nic

[17:49] Eon Berkman: he makes a decsion that models what a woman of israel should be

[17:50] Teresa Cinquetti: mmhmm a lesson

[17:50] Rebecca Berkman: So Eon, Nic's point gets to what Denise just brought up a minute ago. Do you think it was wise for Solomon to ask only this one question and not seek other evidence?

[17:50] GeneKoo Li: (who is Nic and Denise?)

[17:50] Eon Berkman: nic marx

[17:50] Rebecca Berkman: That is, do you think the rule of the decision is more important than whether the outcome is actually correct?

[17:50] You: and, even more so, what were the standards of evidencethat sol was using to evaluate the statements?

[17:50] Chinadoll Lulu: that is a good point

[17:50] Nic Marx: his decision is then more important as a lesson than for its strict accuracy

[17:50] Chinadoll Lulu: wow i never thought of that even with all these years in church

[17:51] Teresa Cinquetti: exactly nic

[17:51] Chinadoll Lulu: kewl

[17:51] Chinadoll Lulu: i learned something new

[17:51] You: woot!

[17:51] Eon Berkman: to abstract the question, are trials about finding "truth" or about finding the outcome that best serves the interests of the state?

[17:51] Teresa Cinquetti smiles

[17:52] Eon Berkman: is there a tension between truth and resolution of disputes

[17:52] Teresa Cinquetti: ahhh that is a great paraphrase of your introduction professor

[17:52] You: well said

[17:52] GeneKoo Li: [ I think I'm missing part of the conversation ]

[17:52] Teresa Cinquetti: Chi and I went ove that and over that

[17:52] Bruce Flyer: the state = "we the people?"

[17:52] Rebecca Berkman: yes, but the people have to like/trust the decision or it undermines the interest of the state, doesn't it? because people stop trusting the decisions it makes?

[17:52] Eon Berkman: gene, come sit in the front row

[17:52] Mabsuta Nakamura: Or was the decision to keep Solomon in power - therefore a popular decision?

[17:52] Eon Berkman: no back benching

[17:52] Chinadoll Lulu: hehe

[17:52] Chinadoll Lulu: yeap yeap

[17:53] JoelAndrew March: Rebecca,I wonder what to make of the KJV, that says, "And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king"

[17:53] Chinadoll Lulu: the decision i do not think is to keep him in power....

[17:53] Nic Marx: rebecca: yes, but decisions do not have to be 'truthful' to be trusted - both truth and trust are much more fluid than that

[17:53] Chinadoll Lulu: but like nix said, a lesson for all women then

[17:53] Rebecca Berkman: Oh, good point JoelAndrew, fear goes a long long way....

[17:53] Chinadoll Lulu: nic, you opened my eyes tonight

[17:53] You: ok, so what would solomon do in Bush v Gore

[17:53] GeneKoo Li: what is the meaning of "fear" in that context...

[17:54] GeneKoo Li: Split Bush in half?

[17:54] Teresa Cinquetti: lol

[17:54] You: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[17:54] Teresa Cinquetti: then there were 4

[17:54] Chinadoll Lulu: feared in the old english bible means greatly respect, not fear as in running away

[17:54] Mabsuta Nakamura: What's the Hebrew word in the text that says "fear" - it might be better translated as "awe"

[17:54] JoelAndrew March: I see.

[17:54] GeneKoo Li: that's how I would interpret "fear" but it's an interesting word

[17:55] You: anyone have the original hebrew?

[17:55] JoelAndrew March: I interpreted it as meaning the decision "challenged them"--things would always be so easily as simply agreeing with the king.

[17:55] You: is there a talmudic scholar in the house?

[17:55] Bruce Flyer: "fear of the Lord the beginning of wisdom" seems to suggest an attitudes rather than an emotion

[17:55] Tetero Lesse: I think finding truth takes too long for rulers -- that's why there are no philospher kings.

[17:55] Chinadoll Lulu: in old english bible (and it is throughout the bible)... like Fear God, is not running away from God, but in awe, greatly respect

[17:55] Mabsuta Nakamura: Is Dershowitz here? :-)

[17:56] Teresa Cinquetti: But we don't need to go to the bibles to discuss the evidence and ruling of Solomon, do we?

[17:56] GeneKoo Li: If the goal was to find truth, and they did a whole discovery process, it never would have made it to teh old testament. too boring!

[17:56] You: yet we do just that in modern adjudication.

[17:56] Eon Berkman: good point

[17:56] Chinadoll Lulu: we need to because that is the writing and the background.... in many case, we need to look at the whole history in order to study a case fairly

[17:56] Eon Berkman: a modern trial of this case would have taken a week

[17:56] Nate Grigges: I think in the case of Solomon, it seems the goal was resolving the dispute in a way the best suited the state, rather than in getting the "truth"

[17:57] Chinadoll Lulu: like for example, chinese history had a similar story, but it is viewed differently as well.

[17:57] Bruce Flyer: so the candidate who says, "let the other one be president" is the better prospective president?

[17:57] GeneKoo Li: if we could "know" that the woman who was willing to sacrifice the baby was really the mother, would we still say Solomon made the right decision?

[17:57] Nate Grigges: if he were truly interested in the truth, he aught to have asked more questions

[17:57] You: solomon wanted to get it right.

[17:57] You: no way! what did the state care about this one measly dispute?

[17:57] JoelAndrew March: Bruce: I think you're right. Otherwise, the story wouldn't need to be in the bible *(and all the poeple wouldn't need to be listening to the decision)

[17:57] GeneKoo Li: @ Bruce : or that would make the wussier, flip-floppier President?

[17:57] Nate Grigges: well in this case the 'state' is king solomon

[17:58] Bruce Flyer: did Solomon have any personal motive?

[17:58] Rebecca Berkman: but if people believed the decision wasn't about truth, I think they would have less respect for it.

[17:58] Eon Berkman: suppose we learned that the before going in front of solomon woman #1 had been coached to watch out for his tricks, and be the nicest person in the room no matter what

[17:58] Eon Berkman: i.e., she got advice from a good lawyer about how to win

[17:58] Teresa Cinquetti: People want to believe in truth and fairness or at least perceived truth

[17:58] GeneKoo Li: woman #1 had a good lawyer then :)

[17:58] You: the benefit as i see it was that the process used to get the crucial evidence was so closely aligned with our instinct about motherhood.

[17:59] Eon Berkman: where does that leave "truth"?

[17:59] GeneKoo Li: We let that happen all the time -- allow people to go without lawyers and the other party to have representation, and consider that "fair"

[17:59] Chinadoll Lulu: we also must understand the background of the story.... people asked God for a king, and solomon was the 3rd king at that time.... he had great power... and respect.... almost like God.

[18:00] Eon Berkman: which is why woman#2 may have been afraid to contradict his order to cut the child in two

[18:00] Rebecca Berkman: Even though it wouldn't change the "truth" of the outcome, it wouldn't serve the purpose of the state bcause the lesson would be "get a good lawyer" not "be a good mother"

[18:00] Chinadoll Lulu: how true and how sad, Becca

[18:00] Teresa Cinquetti smiles "Perhaps mother 1 was coached in empathic persuasion of kins" :P

[18:00] Chinadoll Lulu: LOL

[18:00] Teresa Cinquetti: kings*

[18:00] GeneKoo Li: woman #2 strategy = kiss the judge's ass?

[18:00] Chinadoll Lulu: yes, coached by a brat like you T :P

[18:00] Eon Berkman: always a winner

[18:01] Rebecca Berkman: not in this case...

[18:01] Teresa Cinquetti: lol

[18:01] GeneKoo Li: the exception that makes it into the bible

[18:01] MyNameIs Burton: how do i sit down

[18:01] Rebecca Berkman: right click on a seat

[18:01] JoelAndrew March: Perhaps part of the wisdom of the lesson was "don't kiss the judge's ass"

[18:01] Chinadoll Lulu: it made it in the Bible for one reason too...

[18:01] Chinadoll Lulu: here...

[18:01] Teresa Cinquetti: we are still talkign about it today

[18:01] You: but it works in law school!

[18:01] You: kidding.

[18:01] Teresa Cinquetti: thats the reason it made it in the bible

[18:02] Chinadoll Lulu: Give your servant, therefore, an understanding heart to judge your people and to distinguish right from wrong. For who is able to govern this vast people of yours?" 10 The LORD was pleased that Solomon made this request. 11 So God said to him: "Because you have asked for this--not for a long life for yourself, nor for riches, nor for the life of your enemies, but for understanding so that you may know what is right--

[18:02] Teresa Cinquetti: its a wonderful lesson for all to share

[18:02] GeneKoo Li: if the two women were harlots, is it also the case that asking more than one question wasn't "worth" the judge's time

[18:02] Tetero Lesse: I think the point of the story was to prove how wise Sol was.

[18:02] Chinadoll Lulu: it was a case to prove that God has given him the greatest wisdom that he asked for

[18:02] MyNameIs Burton: why isn't the moderator saying anything?

[18:02] Tetero Lesse: The women and babies were incidental

[18:03] GeneKoo Li: it would be more like a small-claims court decision in which the rules of evidence, etc. are all a lot more relaxed

[18:03] Rebecca Berkman: perhaps our legal system is just like Solomon's except that we've added all kinds of procedure to try to keep people from being able to trick the judge.

[18:03] MyNameIs Burton: what are you guys doing?

[18:03] Bruce Flyer: could Solomon have asked something related to grief for the child that had already died?

[18:03] You: what if we were friends with the true mother--assume for this that the true mother is the Abraham-type who trusts in God. And also assume that we know the child to belong to her. What is our reaction? Dont we think Solomon a fool?

[18:03] GeneKoo Li: So, Rebecca, is that what youwould say DNA evidence serves as?

[18:03] Chinadoll Lulu: i wonder what would Judge Judy do in this case LOL

[18:03] Teresa Cinquetti: I was thinking that before alos Bruce

[18:04] Chinadoll Lulu: you and you pay her $5000, case closed.

[18:04] GeneKoo Li: Would DNA evidence of the baby's, ah, maternity would be no more or less satisfying?

[18:04] Rebecca Berkman: Gene, I suppose so, unless we impeach that evidence too. It can keep going forever...

[18:04] GeneKoo Li: Exactly, critics of DNA evidence point out that fundamentally human error is just as problemmatic -- that there is no foolproof proof

[18:05] Bruce Flyer: we have the idea that truth can exist apart from mind -- an objective something.

[18:05] Teresa Cinquetti: omg I just panned out. its packed tonight here

[18:06] Chinadoll Lulu: mmhmm

[18:06] Bruce Flyer: are youall at max capacity for avatars in this location?

[18:06] Chinadoll Lulu: that means chi made a fool out of herself in front of 30+ hehehe

[18:06] You: eon, what's the purpose of evidence?

[18:06] GeneKoo Li: i'll open up a slot, I've gtg -- great discussion!

[18:06] You: bye gene!

[18:06] Teresa Cinquetti: night Gene

[18:06] Andy Abrahamson: it seems out of character for someone who has just stolen a babythrough grief to be happy for it to be cut up

[18:07] Eon Berkman: thank you all. my wife just called and requires my attention.

[18:07] Eon Berkman: :<)

[18:07] Nate Grigges: will this avatar limit become an issue during the trial?

[18:07] Chinadoll Lulu: to be cut up is out of jealosey

[18:07] Rebecca Berkman: Eon, can you give us a few final words on this?

[18:07] Chinadoll Lulu: thank you Professor, will you be back?

[18:07] Rebecca Berkman: Perhaps a connection to our present day legal system?

[18:07] Chinadoll Lulu: mmhmm

[18:08] Eon Berkman: trials are about dispute resolution

[18:08] Nate Grigges: btw, florida is winning 14 to 7 (just to update anyone interested)

[18:08] Eon Berkman: the law flies under the flag of truth, but what it's really about is resolving disputes

[18:09] Eon Berkman: thank you all. gotta go.

[18:09] Chinadoll Lulu: i see

[18:09] Rebecca Berkman: Bye Eon, thank you!

[18:09] Teresa Cinquetti: bye prof thank you

[18:09] Chinadoll Lulu: thank you Professor

[18:09] Aphilo Aarde: Good night.

[18:09] You: bye eon. thanks

[18:09] Aphilo Aarde: Thanks.

[18:09] Chinadoll Lulu: now that is kewl

[18:09] Art02138 Eddy: thanks

[18:09] Nate Grigges: thank you Prof Eon, have a good night

[18:09] Mabsuta Nakamura: Laylah tov (good night in Hebrew)

[18:09] Denise Bohm: thank you

[18:09] MyNameIs Burton: bye

[18:09] Chinadoll Lulu: i love this

[18:09] Teresa Cinquetti: Eon for President

[18:09] Eon Berkman is Offline

[18:09] You: Eon for King!

[18:09] Teresa Cinquetti: yay

[18:10] Chinadoll Lulu: open the eyes of my heart Lord, open the eyes of my heart.....

[18:10] Chinadoll Lulu: now that is kewl

[18:10] Rebecca Berkman: OK, everyone! Great discussion!

[18:10] MyNameIs Burton: what were you guys talking about?????

[18:10] MyNameIs Burton: I"m new

[18:10] Teresa Cinquetti: welcome

[18:10] Rebecca Berkman: If you all have a few more minutes, I'd like to do a bit of planning for next week.

[18:10] Chinadoll Lulu: you have my attention

[18:10] Aphilo Aarde: Might I or someone post the transcript from the past hour, please?

[18:10] You: i will!

[18:10] Aphilo Aarde: Thanks!

[18:10] Rebecca Berkman: For those of you who are wondering what is happening (MyNameIs), let me give a brief intro.

[18:10] Mabsuta Nakamura: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09a03.htm

[18:10] Mabsuta Nakamura: I'm still looking for the original Hebrew online - getting close here

[18:11] Rebecca Berkman: Professor Nesson (aka Eon) is offering a 3 week course in Evidence at Harvard law School this january.

[18:11] Rebecca Berkman: He is also offering it to you as an at-large experinece.

[18:11] Rebecca Berkman: That means that you get access to videos of the lecture and all ofthe reading and other materials.

[18:11] Rebecca Berkman: And we have this discussion andone next Monday night too.

[18:11] Aphilo Aarde: That's great.

[18:12] Rebecca Berkman: And next Tuesday-Thursday evening we'll be doing something for him and the enrolled students who are sharing thier prof with us.

[18:12] MyNameIs Burton: Here in Second Life?

[18:12] Rebecca Berkman: We will be holding a moot court here on Berkman Island as a way to train the law students in how to be trial lawyers.

[18:12] Rebecca Berkman: Professor Nesson will be the judge, the students will be the lawyers, and we will be everyone else.

[18:13] Rebecca Berkman: That means that we will be the jury and the parties and the witnesses and the expert witnesses.

[18:13] Chinadoll Lulu: kewl

[18:13] Rebecca Berkman: A really fun thing about it is that we will be doing a case about Second Life!

[18:13] Mabsuta Nakamura: So between now and next Monday we can read the material online to prepare for next Monday's lecture?

[18:13] MyNameIs Burton: That's great. Thanks for the intro. I'll be tuning in to future discussions.

[18:14] Rebecca Berkman: If you like, we can talk a bit about the case itself, or we can move right on to logistics of how we're going to do the moot court.

[18:14] Aphilo Aarde: I've read some of the case. Who is defending Bragg, and what will the main arguments be?

[18:14] Andy Abrahamson: surely the jury shouldnt know the details in advance

[18:14] Rebecca Berkman: Right behind this amphitheater there is a panel with a link ot the course website which has all the videos, the readings, and the info about the case.

[18:14] Andy Abrahamson: will there be a voir dire?

[18:14] Aphilo Aarde: And under what jurisdiction?

[18:14] Rebecca Berkman: It is to the left of Andy Abrahamson.

[18:14] Chinadoll Lulu: you know what makes it even more fun, get the CEO guy in SL here and stand trial

[18:15] Chinadoll Lulu: muhahaahaha

[18:15] Rebecca Berkman: On Tuesday night (most likely at 8pm) we will be doing jury selection (voir dire).

[18:15] Aphilo Aarde: tomorrow?

[18:15] Rebecca Berkman: So everyone who wants to volunteer to be a juror will come that evening and be questioned by the lawyers.

[18:15] Rebecca Berkman: Oh, sorry, next week, not this week.

[18:15] Teresa Cinquetti: lol chi

[18:15] Daisyblue Hefferman: will the jurors answer the voir dire as their rl roles, or sl?

[18:15] You: good question!

[18:16] Rebecca Berkman: On wednesday night there will be opening statements by the lawyers and they will do direct examination and cross-examination of the first witness.

[18:16] Nic Marx: thanks, will be back, got to go

[18:16] Andy Abrahamson: i hope there will be alternates in case jurors get stuck in traffic :-(

[18:16] Rebecca Berkman: On thursday we will do the other witnesses and jury deliberations.

[18:16] Rebecca Berkman: What do you think about rl/sl personas? I think that the jurors should be sl personas myself, but i'm not sure about that.

[18:16] Andy Abrahamson: keep rl out of it IMHO

[18:17] Daisyblue Hefferman: some of ud don't have a lot of sl history .:)

[18:17] Chinadoll Lulu: yes SL personals

[18:17] MyNameIs Burton: My sl persona is much more interesting. lol

[18:17] Joe Petrel is Online

[18:17] You: im a single mother of three with a phd in micribiology.

[18:17] Mabsuta Nakamura: Some who generally participate in SL may not want to reveal their real persona here

[18:17] Aphilo Aarde: I think the articulations between RL and SL are fascinating,

[18:17] You: how do we establish credinbility in sl personas?

[18:17] Teresa Cinquetti: r/sl personas overlap

[18:17] Rebecca Berkman: I don't mean to say that you are no longer your rl self, but you will not be asked to reveal your rl identity if you are a juror.

[18:17] You: oic

[18:17] Rebecca Berkman: It will be up to the lawyers to decide if you are credible!

[18:18] Aphilo Aarde: Keeping RL out makes sense, but it's a significant context in which to understand SL legal practices.

[18:18] Andy Abrahamson: but you should admit if you are taking bribes from Phlip Linden

[18:18] Yuu Nakamichi: just as we decide what we trust

[18:18] Yuu Nakamichi: when we look at a web page

[18:18] Rebecca Berkman: I think we have quite a bit more to go on than we get at a web page most of the time!

[18:18] Chinadoll Lulu: may be i should be a court officer

[18:18] Teresa Cinquetti smiles and looks up at her L back account and hopes Philip Linden puts more inthere

[18:18] Chinadoll Lulu: you need one too right

[18:19] Rebecca Berkman: We will also need someone to volunteer to play the role of Rosedale, the LL CEO.

[18:19] Rebecca Berkman: And someone to play Bragg, the plaintiff.

[18:19] You: i second chinadoll as baliff

[18:19] Chinadoll Lulu: here i will be a court officer

[18:19] Andy Abrahamson: couldnt phil lay himself?

[18:19] Andy Abrahamson: play

[18:19] Teresa Cinquetti: she has a mean watermelon gun

[18:19] Rebecca Berkman: This will require spending a bunch of time learning about the case so that you will know what happened and how to answer questions from their point of view.

[18:19] -WaterMelon Laucher v 1.1: Enter Mouselook to shoot me!

[18:19] Chinadoll Lulu: this?

[18:20] Teresa Cinquetti: hehe yes

[18:20] Rebecca Berkman: I am not sure yet whether any Lindens will participate, but I don't think we can count on it.

[18:20] Andy Abrahamson: serious question do the actual parties to the dispute know we are doing this?

[18:20] Rebecca Berkman: Yes, the actual parties to the dispute know that we are doing this.

[18:20] Andy Abrahamson: k

[18:20] Teresa Cinquetti: thats interesting

[18:20] Aphilo Aarde: Are they being tried under US law, Massachusett's law, SL law, or some amalgam?

[18:20] Teresa Cinquetti: I wonder if they will come

[18:20] Chinadoll Lulu: nah they wil not come

[18:20] Chinadoll Lulu: lol

[18:21] Rebecca Berkman: I think that we will be trying the case under US law and the SL Terms of Service Agreement.

[18:21] Teresa Cinquetti: PL may record the transcript

[18:21] You: philip will come

[18:21] Chinadoll Lulu: yeah

[18:21] Chinadoll Lulu: we should bring it to Judge Judy and Judge Joe Brown

[18:21] Andy Abrahamson: of course finding against him may be against the TOS

[18:21] You: tee hee

[18:22] Rebecca Berkman: I think the best thing to do is to get a sense of who is willing to volunteer to be jurors or play other roles.

[18:22] You: when will you need that info?

[18:22] Rebecca Berkman: I've made a space on the at-large page of the course website where people can sign up to be a juror.

[18:22] Chinadoll Lulu: lol

[18:22] Rebecca Berkman: We can also have people indicate there if they'd be willing to take on another role.

[18:22] Mabsuta Nakamura: Do you have an idea of how much team will be necessary for each night next week? I'm also in grad school with 5 courses

[18:22] Teresa Cinquetti: got me onteh cover of the SL webpage :P

[18:22] Chinadoll Lulu: you are a brat, T

[18:22] Yuu Nakamichi: have you had feedback already rebecca?

[18:23] Rebecca Berkman: Also, if you can come only one night or two nights, you could also put that there, or if you have time constraints.

[18:23] Rebecca Berkman: Then once we know how many people we have and what kind of constraints, we can make a more concrete plan.

[18:23] Andy Abrahamson: will more videos be coming on stream. there may be more @large participants if so

[18:23] Chinadoll Lulu: put where

[18:23] Chinadoll Lulu: i will come all 5 nights

[18:23] Teresa Cinquetti: the hours are going to be what again Becca please?

[18:23] Rebecca Berkman: So far quite a few people have expressed interest in being jurors and we've got an expert witness who will testify about the SL real estate purchase system.

[18:24] Yuu Nakamichi smiles

[18:24] Rebecca Berkman: I think that the hours will be 8:00-10:00 EST Tues-Thurs next week.

[18:24] Chinadoll Lulu: ok

[18:24] Chinadoll Lulu: i will be here

[18:24] Chinadoll Lulu: all nights

[18:24] Rebecca Berkman: But I think it will be possible to do only some of the nights if necessary, because that is a lot of time to commit...

[18:24] Teresa Cinquetti: kk I will make arangements then

[18:24] Rebecca Berkman: We will also have a discussion session again next Monday with Eon.

[18:25] Chinadoll Lulu: kewl

[18:25] Teresa Cinquetti: I can be here

[18:25] Chinadoll Lulu: this time, would you please invite mom to your place, Becca

[18:25] Rebecca Berkman: Great!

[18:25] Chinadoll Lulu: so mom will not take dad away

[18:25] Chinadoll Lulu: i was hoping Professor would be here for 2 more hr

[18:25] Chinadoll Lulu: lol

[18:25] Teresa Cinquetti: hehe brat

[18:25] Rebecca Berkman: Eon doesn't stay up much past 9:30 anyway!

[18:26] Chinadoll Lulu: may be for At Large, he would

[18:26] Chinadoll Lulu: give him a good laugh

[18:26] You: just so everyone knows, there is an at-large page on the course wiki: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/cyberone/wiki/Evidence-At-Large#Calendar

[18:26] Rebecca Berkman: So, does anyone have any ideas/suggestions about how to organize the moot court or what would work for you?

[18:26] Rebecca Berkman: Thanks Geoff!

[18:26] You: yw.

[18:26] Rebecca Berkman: That page is also where you can sign up if you want to volunteer.

[18:27] Andy Abrahamson: I'm wondering if you are going to be able to have a full jury, and still have witnesses etc

[18:27] You: and i will post tonights diiscussion there./

[18:27] Aphilo Aarde: Thanks, Geoff

[18:27] You: np.

[18:27] Chinadoll Lulu: kewl

[18:27] Teresa Cinquetti: can make groups so that certain parties can have conversations outside of the reg chat channel

[18:28] Teresa Cinquetti: or use the conferencing tool

[18:28] Andy Abrahamson: will you be making the island group only for the court... so that we are not killed by lag etc

[18:28] You: i'll start a CyEvidence group.

[18:28] Rebecca Berkman: That's a good idea, Teresa. We will already have it set up so that people in the gallery can hear the courtroom but people in the courtroom can't hear the gallery.

[18:29] Rebecca Berkman: But it would be nice to be able to be on an at-large chat channel even if you are a witness or a juror.

[18:29] Andy Abrahamson: maybe the question tool?

[18:29] Teresa Cinquetti: kk I was thinking defense and plaintiff attourneys having their own

[18:29] Teresa Cinquetti: jurors arent supposed to talk until all is over right?

[18:29] Rebecca Berkman: Good idea, Andy. We can definitely set up the question tool so that it is available during the trial too.

[18:30] Rebecca Berkman: Our jury won't be exactly like an American jury because you'll already know quite a bit about the case (normally that woudl disqualify you) and we won't be restricting you from talking about it during the case, either to each other or to anyone else.

[18:30] Teresa Cinquetti: is there someone overseeing the entire process? Sort of like a facilitator

[18:30] Rebecca Berkman: Perhaps we'll tell the lawyers not to talk to you during the case though!

[18:31] Rebecca Berkman: I am overseeing the process and my father will be the judge, but that's it.

[18:31] Chinadoll Lulu: i will pretend as clueless newbie that do not know about SL

[18:31] Chinadoll Lulu: hehe

[18:31] Andy Abrahamson: maybe if you volunteer to be a juror you should avoid reading up on the case

[18:31] Aphilo Aarde: I'm glad you're moderating.

[18:31] Rebecca Berkman: I'm not actually in Cambridge, so I'm a little bit disconnected from the enrolled students for this class, but hopefully some of them will be able to help keep us connected.

[18:32] Aphilo Aarde: Ah, physical proximity.

[18:32] Chinadoll Lulu: please change the title Member to something else

[18:32] Chinadoll Lulu: it is easy to do

[18:32] Chinadoll Lulu: if possible

[18:32] Andy Abrahamson: presumably the value for the HLS students is well prepped witnesses

[18:32] Rebecca Berkman: Geoff, could you add info about that group to the at-large page so that people can join it?

[18:32] You: I just created a group called CyberEvidence @Large. Join and we can communicate with eachother that way.

[18:32] Chinadoll Lulu: yes if possible, please kindly change the word Member to something else

[18:32] You: Of course.

[18:33] Rebecca Berkman: I don't want to restrict the learning experience of the jurors. I do want to encourage the witnesses to be well-prepared.

[18:33] Rebecca Berkman: Of course the lawyers may want to prep their witnesses, just like Mother#1's lawyer prepped her!

[18:33] Teresa Cinquetti: :)

[18:33] Mabsuta Nakamura: Maybe mother#1 was sleeping with Sol

[18:33] Andy Abrahamson: maybe those who will "play" the parties could talk with them in advance

[18:33] You: Owner sound ok?

[18:33] Andy Abrahamson: like the interviews we did

[18:34] Rebecca Berkman: Yes, Andy, I think that is a good idea. The only constraint is how little time we have. It is amazing how short a 3-week class is! This is already the beginning of

[18:34] Rebecca Berkman: the 2nd week for the law students.

[18:34] Chinadoll Lulu: becca, how about sending out notecard material in advance to the role players

[18:34] Chinadoll Lulu: so we can read it "off hour"

[18:35] Rebecca Berkman: So far, we don't have any role players, but once people volunteer for those roles, they will certainly get a full experience.

[18:35] Rebecca Berkman: For anyone who has enough time, I recommend taking one of those roles because it will mean a lot of chance to interact directly with Eon and with the law students who will be trying the case.

[18:36] Aphilo Aarde: A great opportunity.

[18:36] Chinadoll Lulu: yes you got 2 already, T and me will commit to this all nights

[18:36] Rebecca Berkman: Are you two volunteering to be Rosedale and Bragg?

[18:36] You: the CyberEvidence @Large group is functional, so join and keep in touch!

[18:36] Teresa Cinquetti: omg no

[18:36] Chinadoll Lulu: lol no

[18:36] Aphilo Aarde: Thanks, Geoff!

[18:37] Rebecca Berkman: ok, that was my impression -- i thought you wanted to be jurors or bailiff.

[18:37] Chinadoll Lulu: mhmm

[18:37] Andy Abrahamson: I'm happy to volunteer to be linden.

[18:37] Andy Abrahamson: if noone else wants it

[18:37] Rebecca Berkman: That would be great Andy!

[18:37] You: the only night i cant do is tuesday. count me in other than that.

[18:37] Teresa Cinquetti: yay Andy

[18:37] Chinadoll Lulu: may be i can be rosedale's lil sister :P

[18:37] Aphilo Aarde: And if Phil is there, there might be rich im opportunities :)

[18:38] Rebecca Berkman: Geoff, would you be up for being a witness or being Bragg? We won't necessarily need the parties on Tuesday because that is just jury selection.

[18:38] Teresa Cinquetti: yeah like down with lag

[18:38] Teresa Cinquetti: jk

[18:38] Chinadoll Lulu: lol

[18:38] You: sure, whatever you need.

[18:39] Chinadoll Lulu: T, may be we will be protestor outside the court room, holding those signs and yell slogans.

[18:39] Rebecca Berkman: OK! I think we are in business! We have Andy = Linden and Geoff = Bragg and Teresa and Chi = jurors.

[18:39] Teresa Cinquetti: Becca will make us wait outisde the sim

[18:39] Chinadoll Lulu: lol

[18:39] Chinadoll Lulu: yay

[18:40] Chinadoll Lulu: we are the "pre-selected" jurors

[18:40] Rebecca Berkman: And anyone else who wants to be a juror is certainly welcome. I know I already put Daisyblue on the list -- not that she committed yet, but just expressed interest.

[18:40] Aphilo Aarde: Will Bragg be there? Does anyone know?

[18:40] Rebecca Berkman: Chinadoll, I think you will still have to go through jury selection!

[18:40] Chinadoll Lulu: darn

[18:40] Aphilo Aarde: I have some scheduling conflicts.

[18:40] Alan Lederberg: I can be a juror.

[18:40] Andy Abrahamson: you might have somne preconceived opinions

[18:40] Rebecca Berkman: My understanding is that Bragg is not allowed to be in SL, actually. Although I'm not sure about that.

[18:40] Rebecca Berkman: Great, thanks Alan!

[18:41] Aphilo Aarde: I can be there sometimes, but that probably won't work for the jury.

[18:41] Denise Bohm: tks for the lemonade...hmmm!

[18:41] Chinadoll Lulu: with the new system, no credit check, bragg could be anyone even in here

[18:41] Rebecca Berkman: Aphilo, perhaps we can arrange to use you as a witness.

[18:41] MyNameIs Burton: I am interested in being a juror.

[18:41] Rebecca Berkman: Thanks MyNameIs!

[18:41] Chinadoll Lulu: bragg could be that strange guy last term wearking villian splandex

[18:41] Andy Abrahamson: that was Art Eddy

[18:41] Andy Abrahamson: oops

[18:41] Aphilo Aarde: Maybe Geoff and he could communicate via im during the trial, so he wouldn't be in SL, but his ideas would be represented.

[18:42] Rebecca Berkman: Everyone who wants to be a juror should come next Tuesday at 8pm for jury selection. And also sign up on the website so that I know your avatar name and can contact you if there is any change in schedule.

[18:42] Rebecca Berkman: If it turns out that your schedule changes, that is ok.

[18:42] You: not a bad idea aphilo

[18:42] Rebecca Berkman: Aphilo, if you let me know what times you are available, we can find an appropriate role.

[18:43] Aphilo Aarde: Interesting to get 'real' virtual perspectives of Bragg and Rosedale.

[18:43] Andy Abrahamson: I can meet with Philip Linden at his convenience.... either in world or in their offices

[18:43] Rebecca Berkman: I'm not sure that Bragg will want to be directly involved because he may not want to make statements that affect his case while it is in court.

[18:43] Andy Abrahamson: if he wants an oscar winning performance

[18:43] Chinadoll Lulu: can i be the court officer if i were not selected as the juror....

[18:43] MyNameIs Burton: That's 8:00 pm Eastern Standard Time???

[18:43] Aphilo Aarde: Are you in SF, Andy, or do you mean virtual office?

[18:43] Camron Martini: whats going on here

[18:43] Camron Martini: lol

[18:43] Andy Abrahamson: over the GG bridge

[18:43] Rebecca Berkman: That may be the same situation with Phil Linden. Eon is in communication with the Lindens about what they wnat to do.

[18:43] Aphilo Aarde: kok

[18:44] Chinadoll Lulu: wait a min, this is still on trial???

[18:44] Rebecca Berkman: Yes, 8:00 EST, sorry about that.

[18:44] Aphilo Aarde: (Rodeo lagoon is beautiful).)

[18:44] Rebecca Berkman: Yes, this is actually a case in federal court right now!

[18:45] Andy Abrahamson: maybe Hamlet Au would like to do a piece on the court

[18:45] Aphilo Aarde: This case here might provide very rich legal perspective for both parties.

[18:45] Rebecca Berkman: That makes it a bit tricky but also very interesting because it really gets at issues that affect us all as SL residents.

[18:45] Aphilo Aarde: I can be there next Tuesday at 8, and the following Thursday at around 9:30.

[18:46] Rebecca Berkman: For instance, Rosedale talked in his blog today about how we all are able to own property, but the terms of service says that we don't own our property. which is it? we'll try to figure that out.

[18:46] Chinadoll Lulu: if this is a real case on going case, i do not think anyone from linden or the that guy would come

[18:46] You: what a great case!

[18:46] Mabsuta Nakamura: Are the jurors on the real case barred from attending the SL moot court?

[18:46] Aphilo Aarde: Ongoing development of SL agreements . . . creating precedent.

[18:46] Rebecca Berkman: I think we still have a chance of getting them to come because the case is not for a lot of money -- at least the Lindens might come.

[18:47] Aphilo Aarde: How much money is at stke?

[18:47] Chinadoll Lulu: yeah how much

[18:47] Aphilo Aarde: stake, in real life?

[18:47] Chinadoll Lulu: i think the court fee is more money than the settlement

[18:47] Chinadoll Lulu: hehe

[18:47] Rebecca Berkman: I am not sure but I know that the damages have an upper limit of $75,000 .

[18:47] Chinadoll Lulu: woooooo 75k is a lot for me

[18:47] Rebecca Berkman: me too, but not that much for LL.

[18:48] Aphilo Aarde: And how many other legal cases are there involving SL?

[18:48] Rebecca Berkman: I think they care more about the resolution.

[18:48] Yuu Nakamichi: I think this is the only case so far

[18:48] Chinadoll Lulu: i see since it can force them to change the policy

[18:48] Rebecca Berkman: I am not sure how many cases they have going right now, but I know they have lawyers on staff who are kept pretty busy.

[18:48] Yuu Nakamichi: that has gone to federal ct

[18:48] Chinadoll Lulu: may be i should start one in ny too

[18:49] Andy Abrahamson: and youare o the jury here?

[18:49] Chinadoll Lulu: and T can start one in her village :P

[18:49] Aphilo Aarde: US law's influence makes SL not as 'separate' it might be.

[18:49] Aphilo Aarde: or as 'virtual'

[18:49] Chinadoll Lulu: one from every states

[18:49] Chinadoll Lulu: that would be funny

[18:50] Rebecca Berkman: OK everyone -- I went to work with my sister in her bakery at 5am this morning and I am getting very sleepy!

[18:50] Rebecca Berkman: I am going to have to go home.

[18:50] Teresa Cinquetti: ohh can we have some

[18:50] Chinadoll Lulu: nite nite

[18:50] Teresa Cinquetti: night Becca

[18:50] Teresa Cinquetti: thanks

[18:50] Teresa Cinquetti: for eveything

[18:50] Rebecca Berkman: It is great to be back having discussions again and doing things like this trial.

[18:50] MyNameIs Burton: good night!

[18:51] Rebecca Berkman: I am pretty sure it is the first of its kind -- a real experiment!

[18:51] Aphilo Aarde: Good night, and thanks Becca!

[18:51] Yuu Nakamichi: thanks :)

[18:51] Aphilo Aarde: Geoff, would you be willing to post the whole transcript, please?

[18:51] Rebecca Berkman: I hope to see you all on Monday and I'll be available on email and by IM in here this week.

[18:51] You: you got it

[18:51] Aphilo Aarde: Thanks.

[18:51] Rebecca Berkman: Please check the wiki for videos and readings and to sign up and get info about the case.

[18:51] Mabsuta Nakamura: Can we get to Berkman Island during the week to check it out or do we need to wait until you're here

[18:51] Alan Lederberg: Thanks, Rebecca.

[18:52] Rebecca Berkman: Also, I post announcements on our mailing list. You can read it or join it at http://groups.google.com/group/cyberone

[18:52] Rebecca Berkman: Goodnight!

[18:52] Andy Abrahamson: nite

[18:52] Aphilo Aarde: Good night.

[18:52] You: the case is on the wiki