Difference between revisions of "Office hours"

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Here's a page for office hours-related content, including occasional transcripts.
 
Here's a page for office hours-related content, including occasional transcripts.
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Here is a transcript from Tuesday evening, October 3, 2006:
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[16:43]  TheChaddling Kuu: on your spine
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[16:43]  TheChaddling Kuu: thats fucking awesome
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[16:43]  MissTake Xi: YEA
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[16:44]  MissTake Xi: JUST 45 L
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[16:44]  MissTake Xi: NOT TO SHABBY
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[16:44]  TheChaddling Kuu: dood
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[16:44]  MissTake Xi: BRB GOTTA ROLL ONE
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[16:44]  MissTake Xi: AFK
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[16:44]  TheChaddling Kuu: i either got my stipind today or ive made money from the shop
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[16:44]  MissTake Xi: HOW WOULD YOUMAKE MONEY FROM THE SHOP WITH NOTHING IN IT YET?
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[16:45]  TheChaddling Kuu: i got 3 outfits in there now
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[16:45]  MissTake Xi: OHHHH
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[16:45]  TheChaddling Kuu: and you didnt take off your boots for the photoshoot
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[16:45]  MissTake Xi: WILL YOU PUT SOME OF MINE IN THERE?
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[16:45]  TheChaddling Kuu: lets start making your boxes
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[16:45]  MissTake Xi: K HOLD ON
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[16:45]  TheChaddling Kuu: ill be in the sandbox
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[16:50]  MissTake Xi: HI REBECCA!!!
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[16:50]  You: Hello.
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[16:50]  You: Are you here for CyberOne office hours?
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[16:50]  MissTake Xi: IM A FRIEND OF THE CHADDLINGS
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[16:50]  You: Or just visiting Berkman?
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[16:50]  You: oh, cool.
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[16:50]  MissTake Xi: JUST VISITING
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[16:51]  You: I'm trying out flexible paths.
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[16:51]  MissTake Xi: KOOL
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[16:51]  MissTake Xi: HOPE ALL GOES WELL
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[16:51]  MissTake Xi: SEEYAS
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[16:51]  You: see you.
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[16:52]  Dagmar Kojishi is Offline
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[16:58]  You: Hello everyone!
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[16:58]  Portia Taiyang: Hi!
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[16:58]  Ironman28 Tenjin: hello
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[16:58]  Borgus Dorn: Hi!
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[16:59]  You: I was so absorbed in trying to learn how to build flexi-hair that I didn't notice you arrive!
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[16:59]  You: Are any of you law students here for tours?
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[16:59]  Borgus Dorn: How do you get it to say CyberOne student?
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[16:59]  Borgus Dorn: yeah, that's what im here for
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[16:59]  You: CyberOne student is for Extension School students.
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[16:59]  Borgus Dorn: ahhhhh
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[16:59]  Borgus Dorn: ok
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[16:59]  You: There is a separate group for law students.
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[17:00]  You: But it isn't important for anything.
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[17:00]  Borgus Dorn: ok
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[17:00]  Borgus Dorn: well, then i won't worry about it
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[17:00]  You: We just use the groups in case we have to restrict the island to just our class.
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[17:00]  You: Portia, have you given a tour yet?
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[17:00]  Portia Taiyang: No
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[17:00]  You: Would you like to give Borgus a tour?
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[17:01]  You: Since there aren't too many people on the island, you could show him the island and then some other places you've been.
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[17:01]  Steve Lapointe: Hello All
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[17:01]  You: Ironman, you're an at-large participant, right?
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[17:01]  Ironman28 Tenjin: yes!
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[17:01]  You: Great!
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[17:01]  You: This is so cool.
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[17:01]  Borgus Dorn: haha
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[17:01]  Borgus Dorn: this is crazy
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[17:02]  Portia Taiyang: I 'd be happy to. Was there a group meeting here tonight? i thought there was...
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[17:02]  You: Law students, extension students, and at-large participants all together!
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[17:02]  Borgus Dorn: I think there are a few more law school students coming
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[17:02]  You: My office hours are now (5-7 SLT)
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[17:02]  You: And there may be (should be) a small group meeting of extension students at 8:30pm.
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[17:02]  You: I mean, 5:30 SLT.
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[17:02]  You: So if you are in that group, you probably have time to give a tour and come back.
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[17:03]  Portia Taiyang: Okay...So should i just show Borgus around the island?
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[17:03]  You: Good, I think there are a few more extension students coming to give tours too.
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[17:03]  Steve Lapointe: I can give a tour
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[17:03]  You: Please show him the island as well as at least one place you visited on your scavenger hunt.
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[17:03]  Ironman28 Tenjin: So something special is happening at 5:30/8:30?
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[17:03]  Borgus Dorn: I like Austin, it's a nice replica
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[17:04]  You: And please add each other to your friends lists before you go so that if someone crashes or gets lost, you'll be able to find each other.
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[17:04]  You: (In case anyone doesn't know, try hitting the "History" button.)
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[17:04]  You: Ironman, the extension students have small groups that they are working with.
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[17:04]  You: But they'll be having a private meeting.
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[17:04]  Steve Lapointe: Hello Borgus
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[17:04]  Borgus Dorn: hey
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[17:04]  Ironman28 Tenjin: cool
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[17:04]  Borgus Dorn: so you are giving the tour?
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[17:05]  Borgus Dorn: sweet
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[17:05]  Portia Taiyang: What do i do after I hit the History button?
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[17:05]  You: Just in case you didn't know you could get the chat history that way.
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[17:05]  Steve Lapointe: I can give a tour..
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[17:05]  You: It makes it a lot easier to follow the conversation!
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[17:05]  Portia Taiyang: Thanks!
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[17:05]  Steve Lapointe: yes
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[17:05]  You: Steve, let's wait for another law student to come for you to give a tour to.
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[17:05]  You: Portia will give Borgus a tour.
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[17:05]  You: OK?
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[17:06]  Portia Taiyang: Sure!
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[17:06]  You: Portia, you can add Borgus as a friend by right-clicking on him and choosing "add friend"
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[17:06]  Portia Taiyang: I think Borgus already offered friendship
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[17:06]  You: ok, great.
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[17:06]  You: Then you guys are free to go.
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[17:06]  You: It doesn't need to be long.
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[17:06]  Borgus Dorn: excellent
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[17:07]  You: And it is a good chance for you to talk about whatever you want to about SL or the class.
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[17:07]  You: Hi Mobile.
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[17:07]  You: Are you here for CyberOne office hours?
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[17:07]  Mobile Widget: hi rebecca
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[17:07]  You: Or just visiting?
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[17:07]  Portia Taiyang: Ok, so do you know how to fly yet?
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[17:07]  Borgus Dorn: yeah
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[17:07]  Mobile Widget: I have been following along online
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[17:07]  Borgus Dorn: well, hitting fly
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[17:07]  You: cool.
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[17:07]  Portia Taiyang: Did you want to fly around or walk?
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[17:07]  You: nice slippers.
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[17:07]  Mobile Widget: and thought I would stop in
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[17:07]  Mobile Widget: :)
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[17:07]  Mobile Widget: ty
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[17:08]  Borgus Dorn: yeah, sure, let's fly around
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[17:08]  Portia Taiyang: Okay
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[17:08]  You: So I think a few more law students will show up wanting tours.
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[17:09]  Steve Lapointe: Good
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[17:09]  You: In the meantime we can discuss anything about the course that you'd like.
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[17:09]  You: Or, if you haven't got stuff you want to discuss, I can propose things!
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[17:09]  You: Shall we sit?
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[17:09]  Tetero Lesse: I had a little trouble teleporting here, which may be why there aren't more of us.
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[17:09]  Mobile Widget is Online
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[17:10]  You: I wonder why you were having trouble.
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[17:10]  You: Do you have any idea?
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[17:10]  Tetero Lesse: No, but serveral times it told me to try again later.
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[17:10]  You: Hmm.
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[17:10]  You: That's very odd.
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[17:10]  You: I hope it doesn't happen to a lot of people.
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[17:10]  Mobile Widget: what happened?
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[17:11]  crislc Amdahl is Online
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[17:11]  Tetero Lesse: Said something about not being able to resolve coordinates as I recall.
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[17:11]  Mobile Widget: < I hope it doesn't happen to me!>
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[17:12]  Steve Lapointe: COuld this be fallout from the hacking incident?
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[17:12]  You: Hi crislc
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[17:12]  crislc Amdahl: hi all
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[17:12]  You: Did any of you experience the hacking incident yesterday?
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[17:12]  Mobile Widget: yes
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[17:12]  Tetero Lesse: nope
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[17:12]  Ironman28 Tenjin: no...what hacking incident?
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[17:12]  crislc Amdahl: i actually unplugged just before, I guess
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[17:12]  crislc Amdahl: I heard about it from the discussions today
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[17:12]  Steve Lapointe: No
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[17:12]  Steve Lapointe: heard a lot about it
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[17:12]  You: Do you think it would make sense to think of it as a form of SL terrorism?
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[17:12]  You: Or is that too strong a label for it?
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[17:13]  crislc Amdahl: is it terrorism if you crash a chat network?
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[17:13]  Steve Lapointe: I would classify it with website defacing
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[17:13]  crislc Amdahl: I don't think it's any worse than most cyberterrorism...I don't think that the whole idea of "cyberterrorism" is taken seriously enough, tho
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[17:13]  Mobile Widget: hmmm... it is a strong label for sure.
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[17:13]  crislc Amdahl: i agree with steve
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[17:13]  You: it definitely isn't threatening actual human life, so that's a big difference.
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[17:14]  You: oh the other hand, if you try to think what it means to do a terrorist act in-world, it is hard to see the difference.
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[17:14]  Ironman28 Tenjin: what happened, exactly?
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[17:14]  You: i guess it doesn't create fear.
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[17:14]  You: we had some discussion from students in the class that said that it basically involved broadcasting threatening messages to large portions of the world.
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[17:15]  crislc Amdahl: i could see it as something like the IRC server/room wars of the early 90's
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[17:15]  You: and having objects create objects and give themselves to people in a way that was pretty cumbersome.
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[17:15]  Tetero Lesse: If they did it to Rupert, I'd probably secretly cheer. Does that make me a supporter of terrorism?
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[17:15]  crislc Amdahl: rupert?
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[17:15]  Tetero Lesse: mURDOCH. mYsPACE
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[17:15]  You: I guess I was trying to compare it to the previous hack.
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[17:16]  crislc Amdahl: ah
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[17:16]  You: That one was credit card data, so it had more real-world effect.
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[17:16]  You: But it had no in-world effect.
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[17:16]  You: Except all of us being shut out.
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[17:16]  crislc Amdahl: which linden did to themselves, on the first day of this class
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[17:16]  You: This one had no real-world effect but it had more of the feel of a terrorist attack because it felt like someone was taking control of the world against the power of the government/gods.
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[17:17]  You: When something like one of these attacks happens, what do you expect Linden to do?
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[17:17]  You: Would you be upset if they terminated the accounts of the people who did it?
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[17:17]  Tetero Lesse: I'm impressed that they recovered so quickly.
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[17:17]  You: Would you be upset if they didn't terminate them?
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[17:18]  Ironman28 Tenjin: would it make a difference to know the motivations of the hackers?
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[17:18]  crislc Amdahl: i'd be a little surprised...I'm sure they violated the TOS
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[17:18]  Tetero Lesse: Termination seems like an approriate response.
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[17:18]  You: Would you be upset if they shut down all of the aspects of SL that people could use to make an attack or started spying on us while we were on to make sure we weren't planning an attack?
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[17:18]  Mobile Widget: i think that is a big piece - the motivation.
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[17:18]  Steve Lapointe: There are rules in effect whose violation can get you kicked out right?
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[17:18]  You: Well Steve, only sort of.
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[17:18]  crislc Amdahl: although they have the capacity, I do think that curtailing the abilities of residents would be an overreaction
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[17:18]  crislc Amdahl: for example, outlawing sandboxes
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[17:18]  Ironman28 Tenjin: right...although there are rules, SL prides itself on being built and maintained by residents
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[17:19]  You: You can get kicked out for violating a rule, but you can also get kicked out just because Linden Labs wants to kick you out.
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[17:19]  Ironman28 Tenjin: does Linden kick people out capriciously, though?
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[17:19]  You: They have total power, according to the user agreements we all signed.
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[17:19]  Tetero Lesse: Is there any sort of a judicial system (I'd be surprised if so)
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[17:19]  You: I haven't heard of any instance where they kicked someone out capriciously.
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[17:19]  Ironman28 Tenjin: I think of them as benevolent dictators
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[17:19]  You: It doesn't seem to be in their interest to do that.
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[17:19]  Ironman28 Tenjin: rigtht
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[17:19]  Steve Lapointe: True
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[17:20]  crislc Amdahl: if they did, it seems like the nature of SL would encourage word of it to sprad
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[17:20]  crislc Amdahl: ~spread
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[17:20]  You: But tonight a report from Business Week may visit office hours to ask our opinions about a case that someone is bringing against LL.
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[17:20]  You: He was kicked out for reasons that are a little fuzzy to me right now.
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[17:20]  You: That is, the reasons aren't fuzzy, the story is fuzzy.
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[17:20]  Ironman28 Tenjin: I think there could be a place for productive hacking in the culture of an online world
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[17:21]  You: What I'm wondering is what we would do if LL started making decisions we thought were wrong.
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[17:21]  Ironman28 Tenjin: creative hacking that draws attention to aspects of the virtual community
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[17:21]  crislc Amdahl: i don't think that virtual worlds are immune to the hostile hacking of opposing groups. but do we have an obligation as residents of SL to defend it?
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[17:21]  Mobile Widget: I found an old blog post re: an earlier attack that was similar: http://www.3pointd.com/20060920/60-second-life-users-banned-over-grid-attack/
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[17:21]  crislc Amdahl: or is that LInden's job?
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[17:21]  You: But LL allows us to do creative hacking, just not hacking that is destructive to the experience of others.
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[17:21]  Ironman28 Tenjin: there is good precedent for that in other networked communities
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[17:21]  crislc Amdahl: and if it's linden's job, how are we willing to support them?
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[17:21]  Ironman28 Tenjin: the Facebook rebellion of 2006 for example
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[17:22]  Tetero Lesse: It would also be different if Second Life were controlled by a major corporation, say Microsoft.
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[17:22]  crislc Amdahl: how would that be different?
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[17:22]  You: and how much are we willing to trust what they tell us about what is necessary for security.
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[17:22]  Tetero Lesse: It would feel more oppressive, like there were fewer options.
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[17:23]  You: If second life keeps growing, LL will be a major corporation!
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[17:23]  Ironman28 Tenjin: right, these are issues that are co-extensive with real life freedom and control
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[17:23]  You: hi jared
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[17:23]  You: are you a law student?
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[17:24]  Jared Halleck: no, i'm an at large student who just wandered in. Is tonight resrved for law students?
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[17:24]  Hollywood Muldoon: hi rebecca!
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[17:24]  You: no, but we're expecting some law student newbies.
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[17:24]  You: feel free to join us over in the amphitheater if yu like.
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[17:24]  You: hi hollywood.
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[17:24]  Jared Halleck: I will.
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[17:24]  You: i'm going to go back and sit down again.
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[17:25]  You: sorry to run out.
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[17:25]  You: I wanted to welcome the newcomers.
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[17:25]  Tetero Lesse: Something about this sounds familiar. We're concerned about terrorists but don't trust the government not to overrespond.
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[17:25]  You: ah, exactly.
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[17:26]  You: or maybe we aren't even worried about terrorists.
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[17:26]  You: so far they don't seem to be doing any really serious damage.
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[17:26]  You: but we might get worried about LL getting to be too big a corporation.
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[17:26]  Ironman28 Tenjin: I think terrorist is the wrong word -- it's too loaded culturally right now
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[17:26]  Tetero Lesse: but if SL wend down for three days we'd get concerned.
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[17:26]  You: or abusing its power by acting capriciously.
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[17:26]  You: yes, it would defintely cause a problem if SL went down .
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[17:26]  You: Hello Chloe!
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[17:27]  You: Welcome.
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[17:27]  Chloe Sonic: thanks! finally found my way here!
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[17:27]  You: We're talking about the power that LL wields over the residents.
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[17:27]  Steve Lapointe: brb
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[17:27]  Hollywood Muldoon: hi all
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[17:28]  You: Chloe, do you want to come tell everyone about the case you are interested in?
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[17:28]  Mobile Widget: hi Hollywood
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[17:28]  Chloe Sonic: sure..
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[17:28]  Chloe Sonic: i'm a bit slow still on sl--where are you rebecca?
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[17:28]  Dagmar Kojishi is Online
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[17:28]  You: (that's why i've been steering our discussion this way)
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[17:28]  You: Chloe is a reporter w/ business week.
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[17:29]  You: She's working on a story about a person whose account was terminated by LL>
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[17:29]  Chloe Sonic: yes.
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[17:29]  Steve Lapointe: hello
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[17:29]  You: I'm in front of you.
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[17:29]  You: walk to forward and a bit to your left.
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[17:29]  crislc Amdahl: welcome, chloe
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[17:29]  Chloe Sonic: gotcha.
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[17:29]  You: I'm in a green t-shirt sitting on the table.
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[17:29]  Chloe Sonic: ah yea
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[17:29]  You: My avatar is rebecca berkman.
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[17:30]  You: you can sit by right-clicking on a seat and choosing "sit here"
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[17:30]  You: Hi Chuck.
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[17:30]  Chuck Commons: Hello
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[17:30]  You: I'll try to give a little background on Chloe's dilemma.
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[17:30]  You: I'm interested to see what you all think.
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[17:30]  You: Here's the story.
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[17:31]  Chloe Sonic: me too!
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[17:31]  You: A guy who was a resident of Sl found a way to buy a lot of property for cheap.
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[17:31]  You: Some kind of a loophole in the property buyindg arrangement.
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[17:31]  You: So he bought quite a lot using a bunch of US dollars.
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[17:31]  Chloe Sonic: he claims it was through the regular land auction system.
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[17:31]  You: He then wanted to auction it, but SL terminated his account.
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[17:32]  Chloe Sonic: but yes, he found a way to buy land below market value.
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[17:32]  You: SL did not refund his money or compensate him in any way.
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[17:32]  Chloe Sonic: exactly
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[17:32]  You: Now he is suing SL.
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[17:32]  crislc Amdahl: is this similar to Eminent Domain?
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[17:32]  Hollywood Muldoon: I think I would have grounds to sue
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[17:32]  You: For those who don't know, eminent domain is a constitutional doctrine in US law.
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[17:33]  You: It gives the government power to take land if it has a governmental purpose.
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[17:33]  Steve Lapointe: Not for individuals right?
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[17:33]  You: This is similar in some ways.
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[17:33]  You: Because SL is like our government in here.
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[17:33]  Jared Halleck: What was the basis for the termination? Was he violating the subscription agreement?
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[17:33]  You: But we have a democratic government and a constitution that controls how the government treats us.
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[17:33]  crislc Amdahl: right, sorry -- here's the wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain
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[17:33]  You: Here we just have a user agreement with Linden Labs.
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[17:34]  You: So we looked at the user agreement this afternoon to see what rights we have.
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[17:34]  Chloe Sonic: They haven't told him why they terminated the agreement.
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[17:34]  You: And we found that LL reserves the right to terminate anyone's account at any time for any reason without any compensation.
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[17:34]  You: We all agreed to that when we signed up.
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[17:34]  You: But there are two big questions about that.
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[17:34]  You: First, is that legal?
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[17:35]  You: Maybe the contract is void because it is so unfair and because we were unlikely to read that fine print.
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[17:35]  You: Second, should it be that way.
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[17:35]  You: ?
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[17:35]  crislc Amdahl: that's a standard software clause...doesn't Everquest say the same thing? for that matter, doesn't a subscription to Microsoft Encarta (encyclopedia) say that?
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[17:35]  Hollywood Muldoon: this lends to the discussion of the Real or Not Real discussion we were having in lecture... Here we see the crossover of the two worlds, and in the end, real world law is turned to...
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[17:35]  You: Maybe we would like something more like what Jared suggests, where they have to have a reason to terminate the account.
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[17:35]  You: And maybe they should also have to tell you why when they terminate your account.
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[17:36]  Portia Taiyang: So, they could terminate any account for any reason, and not compensate you?
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[17:36]  Tetero Lesse gave you Introduction to Neufreistadt.
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[17:36]  Dancer Morris: they could, but it would be bad business to do that
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[17:36]  Mobile Widget: and what about any rents/sales and other "ownership" in world?
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[17:36]  Tempus Folsom: What about Harvadr's deal for Berkman Island. Is the contract different?
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[17:36]  Chloe Sonic: that appears to be what happened in the person's case filing the suit. And i spoke with another half dozen people whose accounts were terminated but then they were not compentsated
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[17:36]  crislc Amdahl: because second life encourages investment, it seems like the terminatino without compensation is exactly that -- bad business
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[17:36]  You: As far as I understand it, they can terminate for any reason.
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[17:37]  Dancer Morris: in all the cases I've heard of, there were causes -- the question is whether they were sufficient
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[17:37]  You: I think crislc is right.
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[17:37]  You: It is unlikely to be a big problem in the near future because it doesn't benefit them.
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[17:37]  You: But in this case, maybe they could be doing something really evi.
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[17:37]  You: evil.
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[17:37]  Dancer Morris: the person filing the lawsuit found an exploit in the land auction system and used it, according to reports I've seen
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[17:37]  You: (for the record, i don't think they are, but just hypothetically...)
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[17:38]  crislc Amdahl: dancer, do you mean a "code exploit"?
 +
[17:38]  You: what if they only terminate the accounts of a very small number of people who happen to make big land purchases.
 +
[17:38]  Dancer Morris: sort of...
 +
[17:38]  crislc Amdahl: as in, they took advantage of a bug int he software?
 +
[17:38]  Steve Lapointe: Did his actions qualify as hacking?
 +
[17:38]  crislc Amdahl: or just a process exploit?
 +
[17:38]  You: that way they take their money right off the bat but it isn't a big enough scandal for people to get upset about it.
 +
[17:38]  Dancer Morris: some details have been publicly reported, so I can repeat them...
 +
[17:38]  You: We don't actually know what the nature of his exploitation of the system was.
 +
[17:38]  You: We do not think it was a code exploit.
 +
[17:39]  You: He told Chloe that he purchased it through the regular system.
 +
[17:39]  Dancer Morris: what he did was make bids on auctions that weren't supposed to be open yet... they weren't on the web site, but if you could guess their secret codes you could access them
 +
[17:39]  crislc Amdahl: i see
 +
[17:39]  Dancer Morris: he made very low bids, and since the auctions weren't visible to the public, there were no counteroffers
 +
[17:39]  Dancer Morris: so he bought entire sims for US$1
 +
[17:39]  You: Ah, do you know the case Dancer?
 +
[17:39]  Chloe Sonic: what happens if they didn't know they were hacking
 +
[17:40]  crislc Amdahl: so he circumvented the systems that were supposed to keep the public at bay?
 +
[17:40]  Dancer Morris: I followed it back when it was on the forums
 +
[17:40]  You: If that is what he did, then I think the LL user agreement justifies the termination of his account for cause.
 +
[17:40]  Chloe Sonic: that makes sense
 +
[17:40]  crislc Amdahl: i.e. Linden Labs took reasonable precautions, and he just found a hole in the fence?
 +
[17:40]  Dancer Morris: the main perpetrator did know
 +
[17:40]  Dancer Morris: there were some others involved, and it's less clear that they knew they were doing something wrong
 +
[17:41]  Brian Yareach is Online
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[17:41]  Jared Halleck: Is the problem taht the rules aren't clear or that users dont' read the user agreement?
 +
[17:41]  Dancer Morris: his beef in the lawsuit is that LL didn't merely force him to return the sims and wind his account back to the state it was in before the exploit...
 +
[17:41]  You: I think there are several problems.
 +
[17:41]  Dancer Morris: by closing his account, they seized assets that he had BEFORE it all happened
 +
[17:42]  You: The main one that concerns me is that residents don't have any way to give input to LL about what the rules should be.
 +
[17:42]  You: Or, we can give input, but they don't have to listen to us.
 +
[17:42]  Brian Yareach is Offline
 +
[17:42]  crislc Amdahl: so you could look at it as LL assessing punitive damages by seizing the funds he'd invested?
 +
[17:42]  You: That's true, but they only seized assets in SL.
 +
[17:42]  Dancer Morris: people used to do it by posting on the forums, but they closed the areas where residents complained
 +
[17:42]  Mobile Widget: that is the part I was wondering about - and other things like rents and sales inworld - set up prior to the auctions.
 +
[17:42]  Hollywood Muldoon: I could see the possibility of the TOS violation and termination being upheld, but LL having to return monies spent... There seems to be a fuzzy line where virtual and real property cross
 +
[17:42]  crislc Amdahl: and then there's no appeals process?
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[17:42]  You: And that is allowed by the user agreement.
 +
[17:42]  You: How are you doing Pilan?
 +
[17:42]  Jared Halleck: It seems taht LL is treating SL as a subscription service but residents are treating it as a world.
 +
[17:42]  Dancer Morris: it's allowed by the user agreement, but the question is whether the agreement will stand up in court
 +
[17:43]  Dancer Morris: some contracts don't, after all
 +
[17:43]  You: that's true, and we'll have to wait and see about that.
 +
[17:43]  You: What would be the best arguments for upholding the user agreement in this case?
 +
[17:43]  Hollywood Muldoon: malicious intent
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[17:44]  crislc Amdahl: attempting to defraud SL
 +
[17:44]  You: can you elaborate a little hollywood?
 +
[17:44]  Steve Lapointe: Concour
 +
[17:44]  crislc Amdahl: possibly US wire fraud?
 +
[17:44]  You: So, to be clear,
 +
[17:44]  Steve Lapointe: cyber crime?
 +
[17:44]  You: all LL needs is for a court to decide that it was within their rights to terminate the agreement.
 +
[17:44]  Dancer Morris: that might not be enough...
 +
[17:44]  You: Their user agreement has two provisions that seem applicable.
 +
[17:45]  You: First, they have one that gives them the right to terminate anyone anytime.
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[17:45]  Dancer Morris: if the courts decide that L$ are actual money, then seizing them might be unlawful
 +
[17:45]  You: Second, they have one that basically says that if someone exploits the system, they can be terminated for cause.
 +
[17:45]  Dancer Morris: if so, they could terminate his account, but they would have to return the US$ value of his L$
 +
[17:45]  crislc Amdahl: so is it a matter of contract law? simply upholding the validity of the contract?
 +
[17:45]  You: in both cases, the agreement says that they will not give a refund.
 +
[17:46]  You: Hi longhorn62
 +
[17:46]  You: are you a law student?
 +
[17:46]  Hollywood Muldoon: while he may not have violated clearly defined rules and policies, he clearly violated ethics norms which could get him banned as being an "unsavory" character
 +
[17:46]  You: could be your processor.
 +
[17:46]  longhorn62 Student: i am.
 +
[17:46]  You: Welcome!
 +
[17:46]  longhorn62 Student: where are you?
 +
[17:46]  You: Are there any extension students who have not yet given tours who would like to?
 +
[17:46]  Dancer Morris: I think it's clear that LL has the right to remove him from the world. But the question of assets is more difficult
 +
[17:46]  longhorn62 Student: should i be sitting down?
 +
[17:47]  Hollywood Muldoon: so the Termination stands because they can do it with very little cause, but i believe the case he is bringing about the return of "real property" is valid
 +
[17:47]  You: Dancer, you feel strongly about the assets, but it is not just a question of whether it is fair.
 +
[17:47]  You: Sure, come sit!
 +
[17:47]  You: You can sit by right-clicking on a chair.
 +
[17:48]  You: Anyone for being a tour guide?
 +
[17:48]  Dancer Morris: I know, it's more a question of whether it's LEGAL...
 +
[17:48]  Dancer Morris: and I can certainly imagine a court ruling that it is unlawful seizure
 +
[17:48]  Hollywood Muldoon: right
 +
[17:48]  You: we need two tour guides.
 +
[17:48]  You: or one tour guide willing to take two students.
 +
[17:49]  Dancer Morris: LL's position is based on their assertion that L$ and other game assets have no value, but if a court decides otherwise...
 +
[17:49]  You: LL's position is not based on the assertion that L$ have no value.
 +
[17:49]  Tetero Lesse: I can do a tour.
 +
[17:49]  You: Their position is based on a user agreement in which they assert the right to terminate without compensation.
 +
[17:49]  Dancer Morris: LL certainly doesn't want a court making that ruling, since it would probably also require the shutdown of in-world gambling
 +
[17:50]  You: Great, Tetero.
 +
[17:50]  You: Can you take Pilan and longhorn62?
 +
[17:50]  You: Add them to your friends list.
 +
[17:50]  Dancer Morris: but he's not suing for reinstatement; he's suing for return of his assets
 +
[17:50]  You: Show them Berkman Island.
 +
[17:50]  You: And then maybe teleport to one other interesting spot.
 +
[17:50]  You: Even so, if a court upholds the contract, then he will not be compensated.
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[17:51]  longhorn62 Student: yo
 +
[17:51]  You: There is a doctrine by which courts can invalidate contracts.
 +
[17:51]  You: Tetero, can you take Pilan and longhorn62?
 +
[17:51]  You: They do that only very rarely.
 +
[17:52]  You: Because it is usually thought that as adults we have the power to choose whether to sign a contract.
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[17:52]  crislc Amdahl: i have to take care of some class business elsewhere...do we have consents to post a log of these office hours, later?
 +
[17:52]  crislc Amdahl: I hate to miss the rest of this discussion, it's very interesting
 +
[17:52]  You: I'll post a transcript if that's ok with everyone.
 +
[17:52]  Dancer Morris: you always have my permission to post anything I say on this island
 +
[17:53]  Chloe Sonic: that would be really helpful -thanks!
 +
[17:53]  You: So the cases in which contracts can be invalidated are situations in which you are thought not to have any choice about whether to accept them.
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[17:53]  crislc Amdahl: thanks all. have a good one!
 +
[17:53]  You: And also cases in which the terms of them are thought to be unconscionably unfair.
 +
[17:53]  Dancer Morris: I imagine that he'll try to make a case for that one
 +
[17:53]  You: And very rarely cases in which they are thought to be accepted without being read, but that is a very rare situation for them to choose that.
 +
[17:53]  You: Yes, that would be his strongest case, I think.
 +
[17:54]  Dancer Morris: the "no choice" one wouldn't really be possible unless SL were to become a dominant player in social MMOs, in which case you might be able to claim it was a monopoly
 +
[17:54]  You: But I think LL has a strong argument against him for a reason I think crislc brought up.
 +
[17:54]  You: Which is that when they are terminating for cause, they will be given much greater latitude to do what they want.
 +
[17:54]  You: That is, when he has violated the contract, he is in a much weaker position.
 +
[17:54]  You: Because he had the option not to violate it.
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[17:55]  Dancer Morris: There is also the question of whether he actually violated any contract...
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[17:55]  Jared Halleck: But does terminatin for cause give LL the right to keep the money he paid for the land?
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[17:55]  You: We aren't sure about that.
 +
[17:55]  You: Certainly guessing secret codes to get in on auctions before they start sounds like a bad faith thing to do.
 +
[17:55]  Dancer Morris: his exploit consisted of typing URLs into a web browser and responding to them... though he wasn't supposed to know what those URLs were
 +
[17:55]  You: It would be prevented by the spirit of the agreement if not the letter of the agreement.
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[17:56]  Dancer Morris: the auction numbers were assigned sequentially; guessing a possible new one wasn't very difficult
 +
[17:56]  You: Ah!
 +
[17:56]  You: That's a code as law question.
 +
[17:56]  You: Here the code didn't enforce the secrecy.
 +
[17:56]  You: But it was obvious that people weren't supposed to do what he did.
 +
[17:57]  You: There is a question as to whether LL has to enforce its laws by code that can't easily be broken or whether it can just say a rule and expect it to be followed.
 +
[17:57]  You: Or in this case, to just imply a rule perhaps, and expect it to be followed.
 +
[17:57]  You: At this point I am sure they would be much happier if they had just written stronger code.
 +
[17:58]  Steve Lapointe: From a network security angle, if they dont want you to do something, lock it out or secure it
 +
[17:58]  You: yes,
 +
[17:58]  Dagmar Kojishi is Offline
 +
[17:58]  You: but should they be told that they cannot make rules that they can't enforce in code?
 +
[17:59]  Dagmar Kojishi is Online
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[17:59]  You: Just because they can make code act as law in some cases, shouldn't necessarily mean that they have to make all laws that way.
 +
[17:59]  You: Hi Wolfbuzz.
 +
[17:59]  Chloe Sonic: i'm interested does their user agreement and their right to terminate at any time and without property contradict the fact that they also say that residents retain full ip rights to everything they make, cash they generate through commercial ventures
 +
[17:59]  Steve Lapointe: They should be able to make whatever rules they want
 +
[17:59]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: hello, what's goin on?
 +
[17:59]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: oooo
 +
[17:59]  You: we
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[18:00]  Chloe Sonic: or are they separate issues?
 +
[18:00]  You: we're just having office hours for CyberOne
 +
[18:00]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: awsome
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[18:00]  You: check out the video behind me if you don't know what cyberone is.
 +
[18:00]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: yeah, I've seen it
 +
[18:00]  You: oh, cool.
 +
[18:00]  You: welcome.
 +
[18:01]  You: we're talking about a situation in which a guy gamed the SL land auction system to buy a lot of land for cheap and had his account terminated without his $$ being refunded.
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[18:01]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: hmm
 +
[18:02]  You: So, more than the specifics of what will happen to this guy, I'm pretty interested in the issue of how we can have a say in what goes in that user agreement.
 +
[18:02]  You: I am not terribly happy with the situation if LL can kick any of us out for any time and for no reason.
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[18:02]  You: But some people have said it doesn't bother them because LL is unlikely to abuse the power.
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[18:02]  You: Any thoughts?
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[18:03]  Dancer Morris: LL is a pretty benevolent dictator, but dictators still make me uncomfortable
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[18:03]  Jared Halleck: Is there anything in law that gives users the right to have input into user agreements?
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[18:03]  You: What might you be willing to do in order to try to change the agreement?
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[18:03]  You: And, Jared, no there isn't.
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[18:03]  You: Basically we exercise our power by deciding whether or not to enter into the contract.
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[18:03]  You: If we don't like it, we can take our business elsewhere.
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[18:04]  Jared Halleck: Then the only recourse may be to petition SL to change the agreement.
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[18:04]  You: ok, a petition.
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[18:04]  You: that's one concrete idea.
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[18:04]  Dancer Morris: right now, there really isn't any elsewhere to take it, but that could change with time
 +
[18:05]  You: maybe we can think of other ways we could influence LL?
 +
[18:05]  You: (Not that a petition wouldn't be a good way, but just to brainstorm some other ideas.)
 +
[18:06]  Ironman28 Tenjin: civil disobedience within SL?
 +
[18:06]  Dagmar Kojishi is Offline
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[18:06]  You: For instance, a radical thing a group could do would be to start a competing metaverse with a democratic government using open source metaverse software.
 +
[18:06]  You: What kind of civil disobedience could you think of?
 +
[18:06]  You: Perhaps the attack yesterday was a form of that.
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[18:06]  Dancer Morris: if any such software existed that was close to working, it would be more effective
 +
[18:06]  You: And those people are likely to get terminated.
 +
[18:06]  Ironman28 Tenjin: sit-ins?
 +
[18:06]  You: good point dancer.
 +
[18:06]  Ironman28 Tenjin: marches?
 +
[18:07]  You: SL has us for at least a few more years while that stuff catches up....
 +
[18:07]  You: A sit in or a march.
 +
[18:07]  Dancer Morris: sit-ins and marches in-world have been done; it's not clear whether they had any effect on LL
 +
[18:07]  You: is a good idea.
 +
[18:07]  Jared Halleck: Civil disobedience may be counterproductive. SL coud argue civil disobdience is abuse and terminat the agreement.
 +
[18:07]  You: why do you think they didn't have an effect?
 +
[18:07]  You: Or rather, how could you tell?
 +
[18:07]  Ironman28 Tenjin: it's not always clear they have an effect in RL either
 +
[18:07]  Dancer Morris: I don't know how you would tell!
 +
[18:07]  You: true.
 +
[18:07]  Dancer Morris: There were protests against the dropping of the credit card requirement...
 +
[18:08]  Ironman28 Tenjin: the important thing might be the creation of social organizations within SL that understand themselves to be empowered to affect their SL society
 +
[18:08]  Dancer Morris: LL didn't reinstate it, but they did add the ability for scripts and land permissions to check for users with no payment info
 +
[18:08]  You: has anyone checked out democracy island?
 +
[18:08]  Dancer Morris: People also protested the closing of the general areas of the SL forums; so far, LL hasn't budged on their resolve to keep them closed
 +
[18:08]  You: they are trying to start a court system in SL.
 +
[18:08]  Ironman28 Tenjin: these would be most effective if they were coextensive with RL organizations (maybe)
 +
[18:09]  You: So it seems that they don't have much incentive to listen to protest.
 +
[18:09]  You: At least peaceful protest.
 +
[18:09]  You: And they can terminate non-peaceful protestors.
 +
[18:09]  Ironman28 Tenjin: only if they are threatened in some way that matters
 +
[18:09]  You: I guess it is hard to overthrow a dictatorship...
 +
[18:09]  You: Not that we necessarily want to do that.
 +
[18:09]  You: But it is an interesting problem.
 +
[18:10]  You: Well, maybe we've had enough on this topic!
 +
[18:10]  You: Does anyone want to raise any other questions about the course?
 +
[18:10]  You: Or topics for discussion?
 +
[18:11]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: So this isn't the actuall 'course'?
 +
[18:11]  You: Nope.
 +
[18:11]  You: This is just informal office hours.
 +
[18:11]  You: Time to talk freely.
 +
[18:11]  Chloe Sonic: thanks so much for hashing it out-- so helpful and fun to sit in on office hourse
 +
[18:11]  You: Great!
 +
[18:11]  You: Thanks for joining us!
 +
[18:11]  Tempus Folsom: Are we supposed to meet this Thursday again?.It wasn;t on the original list of dates and I might
 +
[18:11]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: So when are the official classes?
 +
[18:11]  Jared Halleck: I'm an at large student and watching the lectures on video. When will the week four lectures be posted?
 +
[18:11]  Tempus Folsom: have a conflict
 +
[18:11]  Ironman28 Tenjin: I have to leave, too -- thanks, Rebecca!
 +
[18:12]  Dancer Morris: There is another in-person meeting scheduled, Tempus
 +
[18:12]  You: Tempus, we do have a meeting scheduled for this Thursday, but we're sensitive to the fact that it wasn't on the original list of dates.
 +
[18:12]  Eon Berkman is Online
 +
[18:12]  Tempus Folsom: ok, I'll do my best
 +
[18:12]  You: So if you have to miss it we'll find a way for you to make it up.
 +
[18:12]  Tempus Folsom: wilkl a transcript be made available?
 +
[18:12]  You: Generally we'll keep having meetings on Thursdays at 9, I think.
 +
[18:12]  You: It is so helpful to get everyone together.
 +
[18:12]  crislc Amdahl: what will be the focus of those meetings?
 +
[18:13]  You: And more of the class meetings are going to be discussions of topics from the lectures, like this discussion, starting after this week.
 +
[18:13]  crislc Amdahl: I'd actually been counting on those weeks of no-Thu mtg, after we formed our groups
 +
[18:13]  You: This week's meeting will be especially cool though.
 +
[18:13]  Aphilo Aarde: Hi Rebecca - what are your thoughts about at-large participants attending these office hours? We can IM, if you like. There was another meeting which was just for one group.
 +
[18:13]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: So then these classes are on Thursday's at 9pm,, or am?
 +
[18:13]  You: Gene is leading a workshop on how to do good interviews (like the one he leads for lawyers learning to interview clients)
 +
[18:13]  crislc Amdahl: ah, that does sound interesting
 +
[18:14]  You: And then you will all have a chance to go interview some interesting SL residents.
 +
[18:14]  You: catching up on questions here...
 +
[18:14]  Dancer Morris: Wolfbuzz: the class meetings we're talking about are limited to registered students
 +
[18:14]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: ahh, I see. OK
 +
[18:14]  You: Hmm.
 +
[18:14]  Dancer Morris: it's not that we're trying to keep people out; it's a sim capacity issue
 +
[18:14]  You: counting on no thurs 9pm meeting: gene and I will consider that.
 +
[18:15]  You: if a lot of people are in that situation we'll try to move the discussions to the small groups instead.
 +
[18:15]  Chloe Sonic: good night all! any chance you could email the transcript Rebecca? Unless you are posting after office hours tonight. Thanks!
 +
[18:15]  You: office hours are open to at-large participants.
 +
[18:15]  You: in fact, we like it very much when you come.
 +
[18:16]  Aphilo Aarde: Great. Thanks. I'll come as often as I can.
 +
[18:16]  Mobile Widget: me too
 +
[18:16]  Jared Halleck: Me too.
 +
[18:16]  You: Chloe, I'll email you the transcript.
 +
[18:16]  crislc Amdahl: i know a few more were planned, but wasn't counting on every thu. out of curiosity, is there actually a way to only allow students onto the island?
 +
[18:16]  Chloe Sonic: great-thanks!!
 +
[18:16]  crislc Amdahl: i.e. restrict it to group members?
 +
[18:16]  You: we use the groups as a way to restrict who can come on the island.
 +
[18:17]  Dancer Morris: yes, you can do that
 +
[18:17]  You: because the island can only support about 45 people and we have 40 students plus me gene ansible and eon.
 +
[18:17]  You: Hi Eon!
 +
[18:17]  You: (Eon is Prof. Nesson for those who don't know)
 +
[18:17]  You: But in here he's more inexperienced than all of you!
 +
[18:17]  Eon Berkman: hi becc
 +
[18:18]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: This whole thing is just blowing my mind away.
 +
[18:18]  You: For at-large participants, we are looking for someone interested in representing us for the CBS evening news piece on the course.
 +
[18:18]  You: As per the email from today.
 +
[18:18]  You: Just thought I'd mention in case that's appealing to some of you.
 +
[18:18]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm happy to do this, although I didn't get the e-mail.
 +
[18:18]  You: (National TV, no less!)
 +
[18:19]  You: Aphilo, are you on our mailing list?
 +
[18:19]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm on some e-mail lists.
 +
[18:19]  You: http://groups.google.com/group/cyberone
 +
[18:19]  Aphilo Aarde: i thought so.
 +
[18:19]  You: that's where I sent the email about it.
 +
[18:19]  You: same one as telling about these office hours.
 +
[18:20]  Dancer Morris: I imagine you've already found people to represent HLS and Extension
 +
[18:20]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm actually have not been checking that new account that regularly yet. I shall.
 +
[18:20]  Mobile Widget: haha - just like the Linden agreement... I don't think I made it to the end!
 +
[18:20]  Mobile Widget: :)
 +
[18:20]  Eon Berkman: hey crisic
 +
[18:20]  You: So are there any issues or ideas from the lectures that you'd like to discuss while Eon is here?
 +
[18:21]  You: Actually, CBS is most interested in the at-large participants.
 +
[18:21]  You: They are excited that the course is open to anyone who wants to participate.
 +
[18:21]  Eon Berkman: crisis, i appreciate the work you did on the wiki
 +
[18:21]  You: Sort of a different angle than some of the other news articles.
 +
[18:21]  Aphilo Aarde: Why is that?
 +
[18:21]  Dancer Morris: it will be interesting to see what they do with it
 +
[18:21]  Dancer Morris: SL has gotten a lot of press... some good, some bad
 +
[18:21]  You: so far the press about our course has been quite good.
 +
[18:22]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: I learned about it from Pop Sci
 +
[18:22]  Dancer Morris: Here in Boston, we're lucky; The Phoenix has done a couple of very good articles, including one about this class
 +
[18:22]  You: I think a couple more law students are on the way...
 +
[18:23]  crislc Amdahl: my pleasure, eon
 +
[18:23]  crislc Amdahl: the course wiki is probably my favorite aspect
 +
[18:24]  You: that's interesting, crislc
 +
[18:24]  Eon Berkman: keep it up. your work makes it better for everyone
 +
[18:24]  You: what do you think about the comparison between wikipedia and SL?
 +
[18:24]  You: To me they are quite similar in some interesting ways.
 +
[18:24]  crislc Amdahl: there are similarities, but I think that the course wiki is only one aspect
 +
[18:25]  Dancer Morris: one essential difference is that SL gives you property rights over specific areas (land and owned objects)
 +
[18:25]  You: oh, that's interesting.
 +
[18:25]  You: in wikipedia you never get total ownership of anything.
 +
[18:25]  crislc Amdahl: the idea of communally shared knowledge is the idea behind study groups...which have been around for awhile ;-)
 +
[18:25]  You: you can exert some control, but you can't own.
 +
[18:25]  crislc Amdahl: which is true on the course wiki
 +
[18:25]  Aphilo Aarde: Both are expressions of open information exchange, and collaboration, but SL is potentially market oriented, while wikipedia is a very good example of Benkler's nonmarket information production.
 +
[18:25]  crislc Amdahl: even for the weeks pages, which someone is accountable for
 +
[18:25]  crislc Amdahl: right on, aphilo
 +
[18:26]  Tempus Folsom: Good noght all--gotta run
 +
[18:26]  Aphilo Aarde: However, both allow for nonmarket information exchange.
 +
[18:26]  crislc Amdahl: 'nite tempus
 +
[18:26]  You: it seems like a lot of the stuff produced in LL is also non-market production.
 +
[18:26]  Dancer Morris: indeed -- have you looked at the script library?
 +
[18:27]  crislc Amdahl: actually, i think the DRM is the stronger difference
 +
[18:27]  crislc Amdahl: not the market potential, but the ability of the source to control the content throughout its lifecycle.
 +
[18:27]  You: can you say more crislc?
 +
[18:27]  Portia Taiyang: I have also got to go. Good night, I had a good time. Very interesting topics.
 +
[18:27]  crislc Amdahl: in wikipedia, you can't control the content after you create it
 +
[18:27]  You: Good night portia.
 +
[18:27]  crislc Amdahl: in SL, you can create rules that others are bound to follow
 +
[18:27]  Dancer Morris: the control is incomplete though
 +
[18:27]  crislc Amdahl: it's not absolute
 +
[18:27]  crislc Amdahl: but it's present
 +
[18:28]  Eon Berkman: hey violet
 +
[18:28]  crislc Amdahl: in wikipedia, your information is manageable by anyone
 +
[18:28]  crislc Amdahl: in SL, your scripts/skins/etc can act as their own agents
 +
[18:28]  Eon Berkman: have a seat
 +
[18:28]  Dancer Morris: Some people would really like to have the ability to set a maximum price on things
 +
[18:28]  You: you can control, but takes a lot of time to do it.
 +
[18:28]  crislc Amdahl: you can empower them to defend against modification, for example
 +
[18:28]  Dancer Morris: so you could give them away but not sell them
 +
[18:28]  Jared Halleck: I have to go now. Good night to all. I hope to see you at another session.
 +
[18:28]  Pilan Tamale: i had sme truble today
 +
[18:28]  Eon Berkman: put your pointer on a seat and right click
 +
[18:28]  You: goodnight jared.
 +
[18:28]  You: thanks for coming!
 +
[18:29]  Aphilo Aarde: SL froze.
 +
[18:29]  Dancer Morris: I'm having a rez problem; I'm going to relog. See you in a minute or two
 +
[18:29]  Egon Spengler is Online
 +
[18:29]  You: how was your tour pilan?
 +
[18:29]  OWENIMATIONS DUO DANCER: OWENIMATIONS DUO DANCER v3.4 -- type /99help for instructions
 +
[18:29]  crislc Amdahl: it's true that it's hard to control in SL, but it's impossible to control in wikipedia. you end up with problems like vandalism
 +
[18:29]  Eon Berkman: hey violet, do you read me
 +
[18:29]  You: but wikipedia actually has the vandalism pretty well controlled.
 +
[18:30]  Pilan Tamale: i think i need to try it again on a better computer
 +
[18:30]  You: so they are controlling it in spite of the lack of ownership.
 +
[18:30]  crislc Amdahl: because of the community
 +
[18:30]  You: using community policing.
 +
[18:30]  crislc Amdahl: someone is acting against the vandals
 +
[18:30]  Pilan Tamale: next time
 +
[18:30]  You: well thanks for giving it a good try pilan!
 +
[18:30]  You: Hi Violet!
 +
[18:30]  crislc Amdahl: as opposed to an article automatically rolling itself back, if certain key words are inserted
 +
[18:30]  Dancer Morris: something weird is going on... I can hear crislc and Eon, but I can't see either of them
 +
[18:31]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: happens to me sometimes
 +
[18:31]  crislc Amdahl: some wikis have simple defenses against bots -- you have to listen to a word, then type it in to prove that you're human
 +
[18:31]  crislc Amdahl: dancer -- it might be a lag problem. happened to me yesterday evening
 +
[18:31]  You: Violet is a law student, new to SL tonight!
 +
[18:31]  You: Would anyone like to give her a tour?
 +
[18:31]  Aphilo Aarde: Has someone generated Hello
 +
[18:31]  You: Perhaps around the island and to some other location?
 +
[18:31]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Violet.
 +
[18:32]  crislc Amdahl: I only have about fifteen minutes, but I could do a quick one. unless someone else with more time wants to volunteer?
 +
[18:32]  Pilan Tamale: I thiknI am going to head out and try again later
 +
[18:32]  Pilan Tamale: thanks everyone
 +
[18:33]  You: I think 15 mins would be plenty!
 +
[18:33]  You: Good night Pilan.
 +
[18:33]  You: Thanks for coming.
 +
[18:33]  Aphilo Aarde: Good night Pilan.
 +
[18:33]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: afk
 +
[18:33]  You: crislc, you can add Violet to your friends list and take her on a short tour.
 +
[18:33]  crislc Amdahl: okay, i can do the tour then
 +
[18:33]  You: Definitely check out Austin.
 +
[18:34]  crislc Amdahl: as in Austin hall, next to here?
 +
[18:34]  Dancer Morris: yes, it's always a good place to start
 +
[18:34]  You: yeah, since it is a replica of a building she knows in RL, it is fun to see!
 +
[18:34]  crislc Amdahl: violet, are you getting any of the IMs I sent?
 +
[18:35]  Violet Flax: i'm here
 +
[18:35]  Eon Berkman accepted your inventory offer.
 +
[18:35]  Steve Lapointe: Did someone say tour?
 +
[18:35]  You: Yes steve!
 +
[18:35]  Violet Flax: i'm ready for the tour
 +
[18:35]  You: Another law student is coming momentarily.
 +
[18:35]  You: Diane Luke.
 +
[18:35]  Steve Lapointe: Cool!
 +
[18:35]  crislc Amdahl: great! violet and I will head out, then
 +
[18:36]  Violet Flax: cool, another friend is coming now can we wait one second
 +
[18:36]  You: Hi Jem
 +
[18:36]  You: Are you a law student?
 +
[18:37]  Violet Flax: here she is
 +
[18:37]  crislc Amdahl: did you want to do a joint tour, violet?
 +
[18:37]  Violet Flax: we're ready
 +
[18:37]  Diane Luke: of course
 +
[18:37]  Diane Luke: aren't i cute?
 +
[18:37]  You: jem, are you a law student?
 +
[18:37]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Jem
 +
[18:38]  You: Steve, can you give Diane Luke a tour?
 +
[18:38]  Diane Luke: ok
 +
[18:38]  You: Can you take her around Berkman island and maybe somewhere else?
 +
[18:38]  Diane Luke: YES!
 +
[18:38]  Steve Lapointe: Yes!
 +
[18:38]  Dancer Morris: you're both in one of the outfits that is available at signup
 +
[18:39]  You: Hi Jem,
 +
[18:39]  You: are you a law student?
 +
[18:39]  Jem Welch: yes i'm a law student
 +
[18:39]  You: great!
 +
[18:39]  Eon Berkman: hi dianee
 +
[18:39]  Diane Luke: hi
 +
[18:39]  Diane Luke: ok!
 +
[18:39]  Eon Berkman: like your tunic
 +
[18:39]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Diane
 +
[18:39]  Diane Luke: hi!
 +
[18:39]  You: why don't you join the tour that Steve Lapointe is leading?
 +
[18:39]  Diane Luke: im ready
 +
[18:39]  Jem Welch: oh, ok - thanks
 +
[18:39]  You: Steve, can you take Jem with you too?
 +
[18:40]  Jem Welch: hi steve i'm joining your tour if that's ok
 +
[18:40]  Steve Lapointe: Wlcome Jem!
 +
[18:40]  Jem Welch: thanks!
 +
[18:40]  You: ok, steve, you guys can head out.
 +
[18:40]  Steve Lapointe: Lets head through the arch..
 +
[18:41]  Stephan DuPont: Hi Rebecca, I am have a lot of problems tonight with my connection.
 +
[18:41]  You: Hi Stephan.
 +
[18:41]  You: Sorry for the mild chaos!
 +
[18:41]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Stephan
 +
[18:42]  Stephan DuPont: I am not sure this would be a goof time to host a tour.
 +
[18:42]  You: why not?
 +
[18:42]  You: Something happening?
 +
[18:42]  Stephan DuPont: My connection is a bit unstable
 +
[18:42]  You: Ah, well you don't need to!
 +
[18:42]  You: No worries.
 +
[18:42]  Aphilo Aarde: My connection is also tenuous.
 +
[18:43]  Tetero Lesse gave you Introduction to Neufreistadt.
 +
[18:43]  You: I don't think any more law students are coming.
 +
[18:43]  Stephan DuPont: Ok we can give it a shot.
 +
[18:43]  You: There is no one to give a tour to right now!
 +
[18:43]  Stephan DuPont: Oh.
 +
[18:44]  Stephan DuPont: I can give a tour tomorrow anytime during the day or evening
 +
[18:44]  You: No need for more tours.
 +
[18:44]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm curious how is the course taking shape relative to what you envisioned, Rebecca?
 +
[18:44]  You: Although if you want to join one in progress, join the people over in the library area.
 +
[18:44]  You: There is another tour leader, so it won't matter if your connection isn't great.
 +
[18:45]  Stephan DuPont: Ok, I would like to debug this problem, I have to contact my ISP. I believe the problem is on their side.
 +
[18:45]  You: Well it seems like our substantive conversation is winding down.
 +
[18:45]  You: Anyone have more stuff to talk about or should we just hang out?
 +
[18:45]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes.
 +
[18:46]  You: Ah, what's up?
 +
[18:46]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm curious what the arrangement between Harvard and SL is.
 +
[18:46]  Stephan DuPont: I am going to sign off nowand resolve my connectivity problems.
 +
[18:46]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm not sure whether you can talk about it.
 +
[18:46]  You: We bought the island and we pay rent for it, just like any other land owners here.
 +
[18:46]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: I was wondering that too.
 +
[18:46]  Aphilo Aarde: Bye Stephan.
 +
[18:46]  Stephan DuPont: Bye for now.
 +
[18:46]  You: But we have no official arrangement with them beyond that.
 +
[18:47]  You: BY stephan.
 +
[18:47]  You: bye, i meant.
 +
[18:47]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: Is Berkman a selectable last name?
 +
[18:47]  You: No, Berkman is associated with our land.
 +
[18:47]  You: I think when you buy a private island you get your own last name.
 +
[18:47]  You: Is that right, Dancer?
 +
[18:47]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: Ohhh, that's cool.
 +
[18:48]  Aphilo Aarde: Do you envision developing more courses here in SL?
 +
[18:48]  You: We have spoken with the education people here (Pathfinder Linden) but they weren't interested in actively supporting us in any way.
 +
[18:48]  You: I was a little surprised by that, but actually it goes well with the ethos of the place and the goal of the course.
 +
[18:48]  You: To be able to do this without a lot of capital.
 +
[18:48]  Dancer Morris: I don't know if a special last name comes automatically with an island, but it is certainly something that LL has done for some customers
 +
[18:49]  Aphilo Aarde: It seems like buying land here would make one less likely to get kicked out, vis-a-vis the earlier conversation.
 +
[18:49]  You: I am interested in developing more SL courses and the Berkman Center is actively researching using virtual worlds in education.
 +
[18:49]  You: of course the guy who got kicked out got kicked out FOR buying land!
 +
[18:49]  Aphilo Aarde: It's far sighted.
 +
[18:49]  Aphilo Aarde: :)
 +
[18:49]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: That's it? Buying land?
 +
[18:49]  Dancer Morris: but Anshe isn't likely to get kicked out -- she represents too much revenue for LL
 +
[18:50]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: I missed most of that last conversation.
 +
[18:50]  Dancer Morris: buying land in auctions that weren't supposed to be open, and getting it for way-below-market prices
 +
[18:50]  You: who is Anshe?
 +
[18:50]  Dancer Morris: Anshe Chung -- SL's biggest land baroness
 +
[18:50]  You: I was just being a little to clever.
 +
[18:50]  Dancer Morris: she runs the Dreamland sims -- over 100 of them now, plus she buys and sells land on the mainland
 +
[18:50]  You: I'm not really sure how much protection owning land affords us.
 +
[18:51]  You: But it does let us make this environment the way we want.
 +
[18:51]  You: We got the name because we own the land.
 +
[18:51]  You: I think that was the answer, Wolfbuzz.
 +
[18:51]  Dancer Morris: because you own the entire island, not just a small plot
 +
[18:51]  You: right.
 +
[18:52]  You: a whole private island.
 +
[18:52]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm interested in developing courses in SL, as well.
 +
[18:52]  You: (a public private island, in this case)
 +
[18:52]  You: It is very interesting to try to do it.
 +
[18:52]  Tetero Lesse: Are there any real advantages to a private person becoming a land owner, or is it just an ego thing?
 +
[18:52]  You: I have found that certain things work a lot better than I expected and others work less well.
 +
[18:52]  Dancer Morris: owning land lets you build something that you have control over...
 +
[18:52]  Aphilo Aarde: How easy is it to just program more land, should you run out? Is the topography 'fixed' in this virtual world?
 +
[18:52]  You: It turns out that people learn to use SL very quickly and that the quality of group discussions is very good.
 +
[18:53]  Dancer Morris: and it lets you exclude people from your land if you wish
 +
[18:53]  Dancer Morris: LL keeps adding more land to the world
 +
[18:53]  Dancer Morris: each sim (land area) runs on a separate server (well, one CPU in a dual-CPU dual-core box), so adding land also means adding servers
 +
[18:53]  You: We can have about 40 people on this island at once, so that gives you an idea of how much land you might need.
 +
[18:53]  Aphilo Aarde: I agree that SL adds an element to discussions, because everyone can chat when they want, and read concurrently.
 +
[18:54]  You: And SL has great potential for adding other elements.
 +
[18:54]  You: I am very interested in teaching a programming course in here.
 +
[18:54]  Tetero Lesse: Interesting. Thanks.
 +
[18:54]  Aphilo Aarde: Potentially a vast number of innovative elements.
 +
[18:54]  You: Anything you can build...
 +
[18:54]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes.
 +
[18:54]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: Some people have used SL's potential very well.
 +
[18:55]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: I've been to a Space Flight Museum here in SL.
 +
[18:55]  Aphilo Aarde: Waht would be helpful about SL for teaching a programming course?
 +
[18:55]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: Have scale versions of toms of rockets.
 +
[18:55]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: *tons
 +
[18:55]  You: We thought we would be trying some more out there stuff, but at this point I'm less sure about it because the value of the class seems to be increased most by real person-to-person discussion and interaction.
 +
[18:56]  You: It's not that surprising really....
 +
[18:56]  You: I'm really having a great time learning to build stuff.
 +
[18:57]  Aphilo Aarde: Speaking of programming, I'm assuming that scratch is relatively imprecise time-wise in its beta version.
 +
[18:57]  You: I've gotten quite stuck on my latest project.
 +
[18:57]  Aphilo Aarde: What are you working on?
 +
[18:57]  Eon Berkman is Offline
 +
[18:57]  You: Hmm, what do you mean by imprecise?
 +
[18:57]  You: Like if you wanted to use it for music or something?
 +
[18:58]  You: If we go out on the lawn I can show you my build.
 +
[18:58]  Aphilo Aarde: Vis-a-vis the Bach "invention" I mentioned I was trying to program, a second in one script doesn't execute the same way in another script.
 +
[18:58]  You: Dancer has already seen an earlier version.
 +
[18:58]  Aphilo Aarde: I'd like to see your build.
 +
[18:58]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: I would like to see.
 +
[18:59]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: That's awsome.
 +
[18:59]  Aphilo Aarde: Is that a block paint brush?
 +
[18:59]  You: try walking on it...
 +
[18:59]  You: or flying over it.
 +
[18:59]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: That is way cool.
 +
[19:00]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: So you scripted this yourself?
 +
[19:00]  You: taking a long time to rez for me...
 +
[19:00]  Dancer Morris: it's getting a bit laggy as it lays down more and more prims
 +
[19:00]  Tetero Lesse: Is that all done using the visual interface (Create in the pie menu)?
 +
[19:00]  Dancer Morris: probably too many scripts running now
 +
[19:01]  Aphilo Aarde: very nice dance floor.
 +
[19:01]  Dancer Morris: Tetero -- that's a scripted object; a lot of what it does is in that form
 +
[19:01]  Dance Floor Tile 3 big: Touched.
 +
[19:01]  You: hmm.
 +
[19:01]  You: well.
 +
[19:01]  You: that's it.
 +
[19:01]  Tetero Lesse: Hey it's Saturday Night Fever!
 +
[19:01]  Dance Floor Tile 3 big: Touched.
 +
[19:02]  You: now i just need a dance club to put it in...
 +
[19:02]  Dancer Morris: it's pretty though, and very interactive
 +
[19:02]  You: yeah, i got help making it from someone named Brian Yareach.
 +
[19:03]  You: Actually, he just gave me the idea from something he made.
 +
[19:03]  You: I built it myself!
 +
[19:03]  Aphilo Aarde: Could you create similar walls, and lighting?
 +
[19:03]  You: Now I am trying to learn to build some flexi hair.
 +
[19:03]  Aphilo Aarde: It's beautiful.
 +
[19:03]  You: it costs too much.
 +
[19:03]  Dancer Morris: yes, you could do the same sort of effect with any object
 +
[19:03]  You: yeah, you could create walls like this.
 +
[19:04]  Dancer Morris: but you probably want to try to do more with texture animation, rather than having a separate color on each prim
 +
[19:04]  You: i don't know anything about texture animation.
 +
[19:04]  You: I should say, office hours are officially over.
 +
[19:04]  You: Now it is just hanging out, truly.
 +
[19:04]  Mobile Widget is Online
 +
[19:04]  Dancer Morris: something new to learn then!
 +
[19:04]  You: indeed.
 +
[19:05]  Dancer Morris: you can set up textures that rotate or shift sideways automatically
 +
[19:05]  You: oh, that's cool.
 +
[19:05]  You: I think I am going to have to go back to RL.
 +
[19:05]  Dancer Morris: OK -- good to see you, Rebecca
 +
[19:05]  You: Good to see you all too!
 +
[19:05]  Aphilo Aarde: Rebecca, I have one further question. Do you know if it is possible to archive actions in SL, in the same way that one might save dialogues, for future study?
 +
[19:05]  Aphilo Aarde: Ah, ok.
 +
[19:05]  Wolfbuzz Goheen: Nice meeting you Rebecca.
 +
[19:06]  You: You mean archive gestures and things?
 +
[19:06]  Dancer Morris: There isn't any general way, no
 +
[19:06]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes.
 +
[19:06]  You: It seems like it would be a lot of data.
 +
[19:06]  Aphilo Aarde: For a library? A Kind of film-like archive?
 +
[19:06]  Aphilo Aarde: Enormous large ifles.
 +
[19:06]  You: Oh, you can do machinima.
 +
[19:06]  Aphilo Aarde: files.
 +
[19:06]  You: Video of what is happening in world!
 +
[19:06]  Aphilo Aarde: machinima?
 +
[19:06]  You: Like in our trailer.
 +
[19:07]  Aphilo Aarde: yes.
 +
[19:07]  You: It is built in to the client or you can use 3d party software.
 +
[19:07]  You: Under the file menu (start/stop movie to disk).
 +
[19:07]  Dancer Morris: I've heard that the built-in capability is broken though
 +
[19:07]  You: It takes a lot of disk space and a lot of skill to make it look nice.
 +
[19:07]  You: Oh, I haven't tried it.
 +
[19:07]  Dancer Morris: I've never tried it; I don't have a fast enough computer
 +
[19:07]  You: Our machinimist uses 3d party software.
 +
[19:07]  You: Tao Takashi
 +
[19:08]  Aphilo Aarde: I see. But there's no way to go back, if one wanted to re-visit and interesting time or interaction, I assume.
 +
[19:08]  Dancer Morris: some makers use a second computer, or a video recorder, to capture the video
 +
[19:08]  You: Not if you didn't record it...
 +
[19:08]  Aphilo Aarde: Thanks. And thanks for office hours.
 +
[19:09]  You: You're welcome.
 +
[19:09]  You: See you soon.
 +
[19:11]  Autopilot canceled
 +
[19:11]  Aphilo Aarde: Making an oriental carpet could be very fun.

Latest revision as of 15:00, 4 October 2006

Here's a page for office hours-related content, including occasional transcripts.


Here is a transcript from Tuesday evening, October 3, 2006:


[16:43] TheChaddling Kuu: on your spine [16:43] TheChaddling Kuu: thats fucking awesome [16:43] MissTake Xi: YEA [16:44] MissTake Xi: JUST 45 L [16:44] MissTake Xi: NOT TO SHABBY [16:44] TheChaddling Kuu: dood [16:44] MissTake Xi: BRB GOTTA ROLL ONE [16:44] MissTake Xi: AFK [16:44] TheChaddling Kuu: i either got my stipind today or ive made money from the shop [16:44] MissTake Xi: HOW WOULD YOUMAKE MONEY FROM THE SHOP WITH NOTHING IN IT YET? [16:45] TheChaddling Kuu: i got 3 outfits in there now [16:45] MissTake Xi: OHHHH [16:45] TheChaddling Kuu: and you didnt take off your boots for the photoshoot [16:45] MissTake Xi: WILL YOU PUT SOME OF MINE IN THERE? [16:45] TheChaddling Kuu: lets start making your boxes [16:45] MissTake Xi: K HOLD ON [16:45] TheChaddling Kuu: ill be in the sandbox [16:50] MissTake Xi: HI REBECCA!!! [16:50] You: Hello. [16:50] You: Are you here for CyberOne office hours? [16:50] MissTake Xi: IM A FRIEND OF THE CHADDLINGS [16:50] You: Or just visiting Berkman? [16:50] You: oh, cool. [16:50] MissTake Xi: JUST VISITING [16:51] You: I'm trying out flexible paths. [16:51] MissTake Xi: KOOL [16:51] MissTake Xi: HOPE ALL GOES WELL [16:51] MissTake Xi: SEEYAS [16:51] You: see you. [16:52] Dagmar Kojishi is Offline [16:58] You: Hello everyone! [16:58] Portia Taiyang: Hi! [16:58] Ironman28 Tenjin: hello [16:58] Borgus Dorn: Hi! [16:59] You: I was so absorbed in trying to learn how to build flexi-hair that I didn't notice you arrive! [16:59] You: Are any of you law students here for tours? [16:59] Borgus Dorn: How do you get it to say CyberOne student? [16:59] Borgus Dorn: yeah, that's what im here for [16:59] You: CyberOne student is for Extension School students. [16:59] Borgus Dorn: ahhhhh [16:59] Borgus Dorn: ok [16:59] You: There is a separate group for law students. [17:00] You: But it isn't important for anything. [17:00] Borgus Dorn: ok [17:00] Borgus Dorn: well, then i won't worry about it [17:00] You: We just use the groups in case we have to restrict the island to just our class. [17:00] You: Portia, have you given a tour yet? [17:00] Portia Taiyang: No [17:00] You: Would you like to give Borgus a tour? [17:01] You: Since there aren't too many people on the island, you could show him the island and then some other places you've been. [17:01] Steve Lapointe: Hello All [17:01] You: Ironman, you're an at-large participant, right? [17:01] Ironman28 Tenjin: yes! [17:01] You: Great! [17:01] You: This is so cool. [17:01] Borgus Dorn: haha [17:01] Borgus Dorn: this is crazy [17:02] Portia Taiyang: I 'd be happy to. Was there a group meeting here tonight? i thought there was... [17:02] You: Law students, extension students, and at-large participants all together! [17:02] Borgus Dorn: I think there are a few more law school students coming [17:02] You: My office hours are now (5-7 SLT) [17:02] You: And there may be (should be) a small group meeting of extension students at 8:30pm. [17:02] You: I mean, 5:30 SLT. [17:02] You: So if you are in that group, you probably have time to give a tour and come back. [17:03] Portia Taiyang: Okay...So should i just show Borgus around the island? [17:03] You: Good, I think there are a few more extension students coming to give tours too. [17:03] Steve Lapointe: I can give a tour [17:03] You: Please show him the island as well as at least one place you visited on your scavenger hunt. [17:03] Ironman28 Tenjin: So something special is happening at 5:30/8:30? [17:03] Borgus Dorn: I like Austin, it's a nice replica [17:04] You: And please add each other to your friends lists before you go so that if someone crashes or gets lost, you'll be able to find each other. [17:04] You: (In case anyone doesn't know, try hitting the "History" button.) [17:04] You: Ironman, the extension students have small groups that they are working with. [17:04] You: But they'll be having a private meeting. [17:04] Steve Lapointe: Hello Borgus [17:04] Borgus Dorn: hey [17:04] Ironman28 Tenjin: cool [17:04] Borgus Dorn: so you are giving the tour? [17:05] Borgus Dorn: sweet [17:05] Portia Taiyang: What do i do after I hit the History button? [17:05] You: Just in case you didn't know you could get the chat history that way. [17:05] Steve Lapointe: I can give a tour.. [17:05] You: It makes it a lot easier to follow the conversation! [17:05] Portia Taiyang: Thanks! [17:05] Steve Lapointe: yes [17:05] You: Steve, let's wait for another law student to come for you to give a tour to. [17:05] You: Portia will give Borgus a tour. [17:05] You: OK? [17:06] Portia Taiyang: Sure! [17:06] You: Portia, you can add Borgus as a friend by right-clicking on him and choosing "add friend" [17:06] Portia Taiyang: I think Borgus already offered friendship [17:06] You: ok, great. [17:06] You: Then you guys are free to go. [17:06] You: It doesn't need to be long. [17:06] Borgus Dorn: excellent [17:07] You: And it is a good chance for you to talk about whatever you want to about SL or the class. [17:07] You: Hi Mobile. [17:07] You: Are you here for CyberOne office hours? [17:07] Mobile Widget: hi rebecca [17:07] You: Or just visiting? [17:07] Portia Taiyang: Ok, so do you know how to fly yet? [17:07] Borgus Dorn: yeah [17:07] Mobile Widget: I have been following along online [17:07] Borgus Dorn: well, hitting fly [17:07] You: cool. [17:07] Portia Taiyang: Did you want to fly around or walk? [17:07] You: nice slippers. [17:07] Mobile Widget: and thought I would stop in [17:07] Mobile Widget: :) [17:07] Mobile Widget: ty [17:08] Borgus Dorn: yeah, sure, let's fly around [17:08] Portia Taiyang: Okay [17:08] You: So I think a few more law students will show up wanting tours. [17:09] Steve Lapointe: Good [17:09] You: In the meantime we can discuss anything about the course that you'd like. [17:09] You: Or, if you haven't got stuff you want to discuss, I can propose things! [17:09] You: Shall we sit? [17:09] Tetero Lesse: I had a little trouble teleporting here, which may be why there aren't more of us. [17:09] Mobile Widget is Online [17:10] You: I wonder why you were having trouble. [17:10] You: Do you have any idea? [17:10] Tetero Lesse: No, but serveral times it told me to try again later. [17:10] You: Hmm. [17:10] You: That's very odd. [17:10] You: I hope it doesn't happen to a lot of people. [17:10] Mobile Widget: what happened? [17:11] crislc Amdahl is Online [17:11] Tetero Lesse: Said something about not being able to resolve coordinates as I recall. [17:11] Mobile Widget: < I hope it doesn't happen to me!> [17:12] Steve Lapointe: COuld this be fallout from the hacking incident? [17:12] You: Hi crislc [17:12] crislc Amdahl: hi all [17:12] You: Did any of you experience the hacking incident yesterday? [17:12] Mobile Widget: yes [17:12] Tetero Lesse: nope [17:12] Ironman28 Tenjin: no...what hacking incident? [17:12] crislc Amdahl: i actually unplugged just before, I guess [17:12] crislc Amdahl: I heard about it from the discussions today [17:12] Steve Lapointe: No [17:12] Steve Lapointe: heard a lot about it [17:12] You: Do you think it would make sense to think of it as a form of SL terrorism? [17:12] You: Or is that too strong a label for it? [17:13] crislc Amdahl: is it terrorism if you crash a chat network? [17:13] Steve Lapointe: I would classify it with website defacing [17:13] crislc Amdahl: I don't think it's any worse than most cyberterrorism...I don't think that the whole idea of "cyberterrorism" is taken seriously enough, tho [17:13] Mobile Widget: hmmm... it is a strong label for sure. [17:13] crislc Amdahl: i agree with steve [17:13] You: it definitely isn't threatening actual human life, so that's a big difference. [17:14] You: oh the other hand, if you try to think what it means to do a terrorist act in-world, it is hard to see the difference. [17:14] Ironman28 Tenjin: what happened, exactly? [17:14] You: i guess it doesn't create fear. [17:14] You: we had some discussion from students in the class that said that it basically involved broadcasting threatening messages to large portions of the world. [17:15] crislc Amdahl: i could see it as something like the IRC server/room wars of the early 90's [17:15] You: and having objects create objects and give themselves to people in a way that was pretty cumbersome. [17:15] Tetero Lesse: If they did it to Rupert, I'd probably secretly cheer. Does that make me a supporter of terrorism? [17:15] crislc Amdahl: rupert? [17:15] Tetero Lesse: mURDOCH. mYsPACE [17:15] You: I guess I was trying to compare it to the previous hack. [17:16] crislc Amdahl: ah [17:16] You: That one was credit card data, so it had more real-world effect. [17:16] You: But it had no in-world effect. [17:16] You: Except all of us being shut out. [17:16] crislc Amdahl: which linden did to themselves, on the first day of this class [17:16] You: This one had no real-world effect but it had more of the feel of a terrorist attack because it felt like someone was taking control of the world against the power of the government/gods. [17:17] You: When something like one of these attacks happens, what do you expect Linden to do? [17:17] You: Would you be upset if they terminated the accounts of the people who did it? [17:17] Tetero Lesse: I'm impressed that they recovered so quickly. [17:17] You: Would you be upset if they didn't terminate them? [17:18] Ironman28 Tenjin: would it make a difference to know the motivations of the hackers? [17:18] crislc Amdahl: i'd be a little surprised...I'm sure they violated the TOS [17:18] Tetero Lesse: Termination seems like an approriate response. [17:18] You: Would you be upset if they shut down all of the aspects of SL that people could use to make an attack or started spying on us while we were on to make sure we weren't planning an attack? [17:18] Mobile Widget: i think that is a big piece - the motivation. [17:18] Steve Lapointe: There are rules in effect whose violation can get you kicked out right? [17:18] You: Well Steve, only sort of. [17:18] crislc Amdahl: although they have the capacity, I do think that curtailing the abilities of residents would be an overreaction [17:18] crislc Amdahl: for example, outlawing sandboxes [17:18] Ironman28 Tenjin: right...although there are rules, SL prides itself on being built and maintained by residents [17:19] You: You can get kicked out for violating a rule, but you can also get kicked out just because Linden Labs wants to kick you out. [17:19] Ironman28 Tenjin: does Linden kick people out capriciously, though? [17:19] You: They have total power, according to the user agreements we all signed. [17:19] Tetero Lesse: Is there any sort of a judicial system (I'd be surprised if so) [17:19] You: I haven't heard of any instance where they kicked someone out capriciously. [17:19] Ironman28 Tenjin: I think of them as benevolent dictators [17:19] You: It doesn't seem to be in their interest to do that. [17:19] Ironman28 Tenjin: rigtht [17:19] Steve Lapointe: True [17:20] crislc Amdahl: if they did, it seems like the nature of SL would encourage word of it to sprad [17:20] crislc Amdahl: ~spread [17:20] You: But tonight a report from Business Week may visit office hours to ask our opinions about a case that someone is bringing against LL. [17:20] You: He was kicked out for reasons that are a little fuzzy to me right now. [17:20] You: That is, the reasons aren't fuzzy, the story is fuzzy. [17:20] Ironman28 Tenjin: I think there could be a place for productive hacking in the culture of an online world [17:21] You: What I'm wondering is what we would do if LL started making decisions we thought were wrong. [17:21] Ironman28 Tenjin: creative hacking that draws attention to aspects of the virtual community [17:21] crislc Amdahl: i don't think that virtual worlds are immune to the hostile hacking of opposing groups. but do we have an obligation as residents of SL to defend it? [17:21] Mobile Widget: I found an old blog post re: an earlier attack that was similar: http://www.3pointd.com/20060920/60-second-life-users-banned-over-grid-attack/ [17:21] crislc Amdahl: or is that LInden's job? [17:21] You: But LL allows us to do creative hacking, just not hacking that is destructive to the experience of others. [17:21] Ironman28 Tenjin: there is good precedent for that in other networked communities [17:21] crislc Amdahl: and if it's linden's job, how are we willing to support them? [17:21] Ironman28 Tenjin: the Facebook rebellion of 2006 for example [17:22] Tetero Lesse: It would also be different if Second Life were controlled by a major corporation, say Microsoft. [17:22] crislc Amdahl: how would that be different? [17:22] You: and how much are we willing to trust what they tell us about what is necessary for security. [17:22] Tetero Lesse: It would feel more oppressive, like there were fewer options. [17:23] You: If second life keeps growing, LL will be a major corporation! [17:23] Ironman28 Tenjin: right, these are issues that are co-extensive with real life freedom and control [17:23] You: hi jared [17:23] You: are you a law student? [17:24] Jared Halleck: no, i'm an at large student who just wandered in. Is tonight resrved for law students? [17:24] Hollywood Muldoon: hi rebecca! [17:24] You: no, but we're expecting some law student newbies. [17:24] You: feel free to join us over in the amphitheater if yu like. [17:24] You: hi hollywood. [17:24] Jared Halleck: I will. [17:24] You: i'm going to go back and sit down again. [17:25] You: sorry to run out. [17:25] You: I wanted to welcome the newcomers. [17:25] Tetero Lesse: Something about this sounds familiar. We're concerned about terrorists but don't trust the government not to overrespond. [17:25] You: ah, exactly. [17:26] You: or maybe we aren't even worried about terrorists. [17:26] You: so far they don't seem to be doing any really serious damage. [17:26] You: but we might get worried about LL getting to be too big a corporation. [17:26] Ironman28 Tenjin: I think terrorist is the wrong word -- it's too loaded culturally right now [17:26] Tetero Lesse: but if SL wend down for three days we'd get concerned. [17:26] You: or abusing its power by acting capriciously. [17:26] You: yes, it would defintely cause a problem if SL went down . [17:26] You: Hello Chloe! [17:27] You: Welcome. [17:27] Chloe Sonic: thanks! finally found my way here! [17:27] You: We're talking about the power that LL wields over the residents. [17:27] Steve Lapointe: brb [17:27] Hollywood Muldoon: hi all [17:28] You: Chloe, do you want to come tell everyone about the case you are interested in? [17:28] Mobile Widget: hi Hollywood [17:28] Chloe Sonic: sure.. [17:28] Chloe Sonic: i'm a bit slow still on sl--where are you rebecca? [17:28] Dagmar Kojishi is Online [17:28] You: (that's why i've been steering our discussion this way) [17:28] You: Chloe is a reporter w/ business week. [17:29] You: She's working on a story about a person whose account was terminated by LL> [17:29] Chloe Sonic: yes. [17:29] Steve Lapointe: hello [17:29] You: I'm in front of you. [17:29] You: walk to forward and a bit to your left. [17:29] crislc Amdahl: welcome, chloe [17:29] Chloe Sonic: gotcha. [17:29] You: I'm in a green t-shirt sitting on the table. [17:29] Chloe Sonic: ah yea [17:29] You: My avatar is rebecca berkman. [17:30] You: you can sit by right-clicking on a seat and choosing "sit here" [17:30] You: Hi Chuck. [17:30] Chuck Commons: Hello [17:30] You: I'll try to give a little background on Chloe's dilemma. [17:30] You: I'm interested to see what you all think. [17:30] You: Here's the story. [17:31] Chloe Sonic: me too! [17:31] You: A guy who was a resident of Sl found a way to buy a lot of property for cheap. [17:31] You: Some kind of a loophole in the property buyindg arrangement. [17:31] You: So he bought quite a lot using a bunch of US dollars. [17:31] Chloe Sonic: he claims it was through the regular land auction system. [17:31] You: He then wanted to auction it, but SL terminated his account. [17:32] Chloe Sonic: but yes, he found a way to buy land below market value. [17:32] You: SL did not refund his money or compensate him in any way. [17:32] Chloe Sonic: exactly [17:32] You: Now he is suing SL. [17:32] crislc Amdahl: is this similar to Eminent Domain? [17:32] Hollywood Muldoon: I think I would have grounds to sue [17:32] You: For those who don't know, eminent domain is a constitutional doctrine in US law. [17:33] You: It gives the government power to take land if it has a governmental purpose. [17:33] Steve Lapointe: Not for individuals right? [17:33] You: This is similar in some ways. [17:33] You: Because SL is like our government in here. [17:33] Jared Halleck: What was the basis for the termination? Was he violating the subscription agreement? [17:33] You: But we have a democratic government and a constitution that controls how the government treats us. [17:33] crislc Amdahl: right, sorry -- here's the wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain [17:33] You: Here we just have a user agreement with Linden Labs. [17:34] You: So we looked at the user agreement this afternoon to see what rights we have. [17:34] Chloe Sonic: They haven't told him why they terminated the agreement. [17:34] You: And we found that LL reserves the right to terminate anyone's account at any time for any reason without any compensation. [17:34] You: We all agreed to that when we signed up. [17:34] You: But there are two big questions about that. [17:34] You: First, is that legal? [17:35] You: Maybe the contract is void because it is so unfair and because we were unlikely to read that fine print. [17:35] You: Second, should it be that way. [17:35] You: ? [17:35] crislc Amdahl: that's a standard software clause...doesn't Everquest say the same thing? for that matter, doesn't a subscription to Microsoft Encarta (encyclopedia) say that? [17:35] Hollywood Muldoon: this lends to the discussion of the Real or Not Real discussion we were having in lecture... Here we see the crossover of the two worlds, and in the end, real world law is turned to... [17:35] You: Maybe we would like something more like what Jared suggests, where they have to have a reason to terminate the account. [17:35] You: And maybe they should also have to tell you why when they terminate your account. [17:36] Portia Taiyang: So, they could terminate any account for any reason, and not compensate you? [17:36] Tetero Lesse gave you Introduction to Neufreistadt. [17:36] Dancer Morris: they could, but it would be bad business to do that [17:36] Mobile Widget: and what about any rents/sales and other "ownership" in world? [17:36] Tempus Folsom: What about Harvadr's deal for Berkman Island. Is the contract different? [17:36] Chloe Sonic: that appears to be what happened in the person's case filing the suit. And i spoke with another half dozen people whose accounts were terminated but then they were not compentsated [17:36] crislc Amdahl: because second life encourages investment, it seems like the terminatino without compensation is exactly that -- bad business [17:36] You: As far as I understand it, they can terminate for any reason. [17:37] Dancer Morris: in all the cases I've heard of, there were causes -- the question is whether they were sufficient [17:37] You: I think crislc is right. [17:37] You: It is unlikely to be a big problem in the near future because it doesn't benefit them. [17:37] You: But in this case, maybe they could be doing something really evi. [17:37] You: evil. [17:37] Dancer Morris: the person filing the lawsuit found an exploit in the land auction system and used it, according to reports I've seen [17:37] You: (for the record, i don't think they are, but just hypothetically...) [17:38] crislc Amdahl: dancer, do you mean a "code exploit"? [17:38] You: what if they only terminate the accounts of a very small number of people who happen to make big land purchases. [17:38] Dancer Morris: sort of... [17:38] crislc Amdahl: as in, they took advantage of a bug int he software? [17:38] Steve Lapointe: Did his actions qualify as hacking? [17:38] crislc Amdahl: or just a process exploit? [17:38] You: that way they take their money right off the bat but it isn't a big enough scandal for people to get upset about it. [17:38] Dancer Morris: some details have been publicly reported, so I can repeat them... [17:38] You: We don't actually know what the nature of his exploitation of the system was. [17:38] You: We do not think it was a code exploit. [17:39] You: He told Chloe that he purchased it through the regular system. [17:39] Dancer Morris: what he did was make bids on auctions that weren't supposed to be open yet... they weren't on the web site, but if you could guess their secret codes you could access them [17:39] crislc Amdahl: i see [17:39] Dancer Morris: he made very low bids, and since the auctions weren't visible to the public, there were no counteroffers [17:39] Dancer Morris: so he bought entire sims for US$1 [17:39] You: Ah, do you know the case Dancer? [17:39] Chloe Sonic: what happens if they didn't know they were hacking [17:40] crislc Amdahl: so he circumvented the systems that were supposed to keep the public at bay? [17:40] Dancer Morris: I followed it back when it was on the forums [17:40] You: If that is what he did, then I think the LL user agreement justifies the termination of his account for cause. [17:40] Chloe Sonic: that makes sense [17:40] crislc Amdahl: i.e. Linden Labs took reasonable precautions, and he just found a hole in the fence? [17:40] Dancer Morris: the main perpetrator did know [17:40] Dancer Morris: there were some others involved, and it's less clear that they knew they were doing something wrong [17:41] Brian Yareach is Online [17:41] Jared Halleck: Is the problem taht the rules aren't clear or that users dont' read the user agreement? [17:41] Dancer Morris: his beef in the lawsuit is that LL didn't merely force him to return the sims and wind his account back to the state it was in before the exploit... [17:41] You: I think there are several problems. [17:41] Dancer Morris: by closing his account, they seized assets that he had BEFORE it all happened [17:42] You: The main one that concerns me is that residents don't have any way to give input to LL about what the rules should be. [17:42] You: Or, we can give input, but they don't have to listen to us. [17:42] Brian Yareach is Offline [17:42] crislc Amdahl: so you could look at it as LL assessing punitive damages by seizing the funds he'd invested? [17:42] You: That's true, but they only seized assets in SL. [17:42] Dancer Morris: people used to do it by posting on the forums, but they closed the areas where residents complained [17:42] Mobile Widget: that is the part I was wondering about - and other things like rents and sales inworld - set up prior to the auctions. [17:42] Hollywood Muldoon: I could see the possibility of the TOS violation and termination being upheld, but LL having to return monies spent... There seems to be a fuzzy line where virtual and real property cross [17:42] crislc Amdahl: and then there's no appeals process? [17:42] You: And that is allowed by the user agreement. [17:42] You: How are you doing Pilan? [17:42] Jared Halleck: It seems taht LL is treating SL as a subscription service but residents are treating it as a world. [17:42] Dancer Morris: it's allowed by the user agreement, but the question is whether the agreement will stand up in court [17:43] Dancer Morris: some contracts don't, after all [17:43] You: that's true, and we'll have to wait and see about that. [17:43] You: What would be the best arguments for upholding the user agreement in this case? [17:43] Hollywood Muldoon: malicious intent [17:44] crislc Amdahl: attempting to defraud SL [17:44] You: can you elaborate a little hollywood? [17:44] Steve Lapointe: Concour [17:44] crislc Amdahl: possibly US wire fraud? [17:44] You: So, to be clear, [17:44] Steve Lapointe: cyber crime? [17:44] You: all LL needs is for a court to decide that it was within their rights to terminate the agreement. [17:44] Dancer Morris: that might not be enough... [17:44] You: Their user agreement has two provisions that seem applicable. [17:45] You: First, they have one that gives them the right to terminate anyone anytime. [17:45] Dancer Morris: if the courts decide that L$ are actual money, then seizing them might be unlawful [17:45] You: Second, they have one that basically says that if someone exploits the system, they can be terminated for cause. [17:45] Dancer Morris: if so, they could terminate his account, but they would have to return the US$ value of his L$ [17:45] crislc Amdahl: so is it a matter of contract law? simply upholding the validity of the contract? [17:45] You: in both cases, the agreement says that they will not give a refund. [17:46] You: Hi longhorn62 [17:46] You: are you a law student? [17:46] Hollywood Muldoon: while he may not have violated clearly defined rules and policies, he clearly violated ethics norms which could get him banned as being an "unsavory" character [17:46] You: could be your processor. [17:46] longhorn62 Student: i am. [17:46] You: Welcome! [17:46] longhorn62 Student: where are you? [17:46] You: Are there any extension students who have not yet given tours who would like to? [17:46] Dancer Morris: I think it's clear that LL has the right to remove him from the world. But the question of assets is more difficult [17:46] longhorn62 Student: should i be sitting down? [17:47] Hollywood Muldoon: so the Termination stands because they can do it with very little cause, but i believe the case he is bringing about the return of "real property" is valid [17:47] You: Dancer, you feel strongly about the assets, but it is not just a question of whether it is fair. [17:47] You: Sure, come sit! [17:47] You: You can sit by right-clicking on a chair. [17:48] You: Anyone for being a tour guide? [17:48] Dancer Morris: I know, it's more a question of whether it's LEGAL... [17:48] Dancer Morris: and I can certainly imagine a court ruling that it is unlawful seizure [17:48] Hollywood Muldoon: right [17:48] You: we need two tour guides. [17:48] You: or one tour guide willing to take two students. [17:49] Dancer Morris: LL's position is based on their assertion that L$ and other game assets have no value, but if a court decides otherwise... [17:49] You: LL's position is not based on the assertion that L$ have no value. [17:49] Tetero Lesse: I can do a tour. [17:49] You: Their position is based on a user agreement in which they assert the right to terminate without compensation. [17:49] Dancer Morris: LL certainly doesn't want a court making that ruling, since it would probably also require the shutdown of in-world gambling [17:50] You: Great, Tetero. [17:50] You: Can you take Pilan and longhorn62? [17:50] You: Add them to your friends list. [17:50] Dancer Morris: but he's not suing for reinstatement; he's suing for return of his assets [17:50] You: Show them Berkman Island. [17:50] You: And then maybe teleport to one other interesting spot. [17:50] You: Even so, if a court upholds the contract, then he will not be compensated. [17:51] longhorn62 Student: yo [17:51] You: There is a doctrine by which courts can invalidate contracts. [17:51] You: Tetero, can you take Pilan and longhorn62? [17:51] You: They do that only very rarely. [17:52] You: Because it is usually thought that as adults we have the power to choose whether to sign a contract. [17:52] crislc Amdahl: i have to take care of some class business elsewhere...do we have consents to post a log of these office hours, later? [17:52] crislc Amdahl: I hate to miss the rest of this discussion, it's very interesting [17:52] You: I'll post a transcript if that's ok with everyone. [17:52] Dancer Morris: you always have my permission to post anything I say on this island [17:53] Chloe Sonic: that would be really helpful -thanks! [17:53] You: So the cases in which contracts can be invalidated are situations in which you are thought not to have any choice about whether to accept them. [17:53] crislc Amdahl: thanks all. have a good one! [17:53] You: And also cases in which the terms of them are thought to be unconscionably unfair. [17:53] Dancer Morris: I imagine that he'll try to make a case for that one [17:53] You: And very rarely cases in which they are thought to be accepted without being read, but that is a very rare situation for them to choose that. [17:53] You: Yes, that would be his strongest case, I think. [17:54] Dancer Morris: the "no choice" one wouldn't really be possible unless SL were to become a dominant player in social MMOs, in which case you might be able to claim it was a monopoly [17:54] You: But I think LL has a strong argument against him for a reason I think crislc brought up. [17:54] You: Which is that when they are terminating for cause, they will be given much greater latitude to do what they want. [17:54] You: That is, when he has violated the contract, he is in a much weaker position. [17:54] You: Because he had the option not to violate it. [17:55] Dancer Morris: There is also the question of whether he actually violated any contract... [17:55] Jared Halleck: But does terminatin for cause give LL the right to keep the money he paid for the land? [17:55] You: We aren't sure about that. [17:55] You: Certainly guessing secret codes to get in on auctions before they start sounds like a bad faith thing to do. [17:55] Dancer Morris: his exploit consisted of typing URLs into a web browser and responding to them... though he wasn't supposed to know what those URLs were [17:55] You: It would be prevented by the spirit of the agreement if not the letter of the agreement. [17:56] Dancer Morris: the auction numbers were assigned sequentially; guessing a possible new one wasn't very difficult [17:56] You: Ah! [17:56] You: That's a code as law question. [17:56] You: Here the code didn't enforce the secrecy. [17:56] You: But it was obvious that people weren't supposed to do what he did. [17:57] You: There is a question as to whether LL has to enforce its laws by code that can't easily be broken or whether it can just say a rule and expect it to be followed. [17:57] You: Or in this case, to just imply a rule perhaps, and expect it to be followed. [17:57] You: At this point I am sure they would be much happier if they had just written stronger code. [17:58] Steve Lapointe: From a network security angle, if they dont want you to do something, lock it out or secure it [17:58] You: yes, [17:58] Dagmar Kojishi is Offline [17:58] You: but should they be told that they cannot make rules that they can't enforce in code? [17:59] Dagmar Kojishi is Online [17:59] You: Just because they can make code act as law in some cases, shouldn't necessarily mean that they have to make all laws that way. [17:59] You: Hi Wolfbuzz. [17:59] Chloe Sonic: i'm interested does their user agreement and their right to terminate at any time and without property contradict the fact that they also say that residents retain full ip rights to everything they make, cash they generate through commercial ventures [17:59] Steve Lapointe: They should be able to make whatever rules they want [17:59] Wolfbuzz Goheen: hello, what's goin on? [17:59] Wolfbuzz Goheen: oooo [17:59] You: we [18:00] Chloe Sonic: or are they separate issues? [18:00] You: we're just having office hours for CyberOne [18:00] Wolfbuzz Goheen: awsome [18:00] You: check out the video behind me if you don't know what cyberone is. [18:00] Wolfbuzz Goheen: yeah, I've seen it [18:00] You: oh, cool. [18:00] You: welcome. [18:01] You: we're talking about a situation in which a guy gamed the SL land auction system to buy a lot of land for cheap and had his account terminated without his $$ being refunded. [18:01] Wolfbuzz Goheen: hmm [18:02] You: So, more than the specifics of what will happen to this guy, I'm pretty interested in the issue of how we can have a say in what goes in that user agreement. [18:02] You: I am not terribly happy with the situation if LL can kick any of us out for any time and for no reason. [18:02] You: But some people have said it doesn't bother them because LL is unlikely to abuse the power. [18:02] You: Any thoughts? [18:03] Dancer Morris: LL is a pretty benevolent dictator, but dictators still make me uncomfortable [18:03] Jared Halleck: Is there anything in law that gives users the right to have input into user agreements? [18:03] You: What might you be willing to do in order to try to change the agreement? [18:03] You: And, Jared, no there isn't. [18:03] You: Basically we exercise our power by deciding whether or not to enter into the contract. [18:03] You: If we don't like it, we can take our business elsewhere. [18:04] Jared Halleck: Then the only recourse may be to petition SL to change the agreement. [18:04] You: ok, a petition. [18:04] You: that's one concrete idea. [18:04] Dancer Morris: right now, there really isn't any elsewhere to take it, but that could change with time [18:05] You: maybe we can think of other ways we could influence LL? [18:05] You: (Not that a petition wouldn't be a good way, but just to brainstorm some other ideas.) [18:06] Ironman28 Tenjin: civil disobedience within SL? [18:06] Dagmar Kojishi is Offline [18:06] You: For instance, a radical thing a group could do would be to start a competing metaverse with a democratic government using open source metaverse software. [18:06] You: What kind of civil disobedience could you think of? [18:06] You: Perhaps the attack yesterday was a form of that. [18:06] Dancer Morris: if any such software existed that was close to working, it would be more effective [18:06] You: And those people are likely to get terminated. [18:06] Ironman28 Tenjin: sit-ins? [18:06] You: good point dancer. [18:06] Ironman28 Tenjin: marches? [18:07] You: SL has us for at least a few more years while that stuff catches up.... [18:07] You: A sit in or a march. [18:07] Dancer Morris: sit-ins and marches in-world have been done; it's not clear whether they had any effect on LL [18:07] You: is a good idea. [18:07] Jared Halleck: Civil disobedience may be counterproductive. SL coud argue civil disobdience is abuse and terminat the agreement. [18:07] You: why do you think they didn't have an effect? [18:07] You: Or rather, how could you tell? [18:07] Ironman28 Tenjin: it's not always clear they have an effect in RL either [18:07] Dancer Morris: I don't know how you would tell! [18:07] You: true. [18:07] Dancer Morris: There were protests against the dropping of the credit card requirement... [18:08] Ironman28 Tenjin: the important thing might be the creation of social organizations within SL that understand themselves to be empowered to affect their SL society [18:08] Dancer Morris: LL didn't reinstate it, but they did add the ability for scripts and land permissions to check for users with no payment info [18:08] You: has anyone checked out democracy island? [18:08] Dancer Morris: People also protested the closing of the general areas of the SL forums; so far, LL hasn't budged on their resolve to keep them closed [18:08] You: they are trying to start a court system in SL. [18:08] Ironman28 Tenjin: these would be most effective if they were coextensive with RL organizations (maybe) [18:09] You: So it seems that they don't have much incentive to listen to protest. [18:09] You: At least peaceful protest. [18:09] You: And they can terminate non-peaceful protestors. [18:09] Ironman28 Tenjin: only if they are threatened in some way that matters [18:09] You: I guess it is hard to overthrow a dictatorship... [18:09] You: Not that we necessarily want to do that. [18:09] You: But it is an interesting problem. [18:10] You: Well, maybe we've had enough on this topic! [18:10] You: Does anyone want to raise any other questions about the course? [18:10] You: Or topics for discussion? [18:11] Wolfbuzz Goheen: So this isn't the actuall 'course'? [18:11] You: Nope. [18:11] You: This is just informal office hours. [18:11] You: Time to talk freely. [18:11] Chloe Sonic: thanks so much for hashing it out-- so helpful and fun to sit in on office hourse [18:11] You: Great! [18:11] You: Thanks for joining us! [18:11] Tempus Folsom: Are we supposed to meet this Thursday again?.It wasn;t on the original list of dates and I might [18:11] Wolfbuzz Goheen: So when are the official classes? [18:11] Jared Halleck: I'm an at large student and watching the lectures on video. When will the week four lectures be posted? [18:11] Tempus Folsom: have a conflict [18:11] Ironman28 Tenjin: I have to leave, too -- thanks, Rebecca! [18:12] Dancer Morris: There is another in-person meeting scheduled, Tempus [18:12] You: Tempus, we do have a meeting scheduled for this Thursday, but we're sensitive to the fact that it wasn't on the original list of dates. [18:12] Eon Berkman is Online [18:12] Tempus Folsom: ok, I'll do my best [18:12] You: So if you have to miss it we'll find a way for you to make it up. [18:12] Tempus Folsom: wilkl a transcript be made available? [18:12] You: Generally we'll keep having meetings on Thursdays at 9, I think. [18:12] You: It is so helpful to get everyone together. [18:12] crislc Amdahl: what will be the focus of those meetings? [18:13] You: And more of the class meetings are going to be discussions of topics from the lectures, like this discussion, starting after this week. [18:13] crislc Amdahl: I'd actually been counting on those weeks of no-Thu mtg, after we formed our groups [18:13] You: This week's meeting will be especially cool though. [18:13] Aphilo Aarde: Hi Rebecca - what are your thoughts about at-large participants attending these office hours? We can IM, if you like. There was another meeting which was just for one group. [18:13] Wolfbuzz Goheen: So then these classes are on Thursday's at 9pm,, or am? [18:13] You: Gene is leading a workshop on how to do good interviews (like the one he leads for lawyers learning to interview clients) [18:13] crislc Amdahl: ah, that does sound interesting [18:14] You: And then you will all have a chance to go interview some interesting SL residents. [18:14] You: catching up on questions here... [18:14] Dancer Morris: Wolfbuzz: the class meetings we're talking about are limited to registered students [18:14] Wolfbuzz Goheen: ahh, I see. OK [18:14] You: Hmm. [18:14] Dancer Morris: it's not that we're trying to keep people out; it's a sim capacity issue [18:14] You: counting on no thurs 9pm meeting: gene and I will consider that. [18:15] You: if a lot of people are in that situation we'll try to move the discussions to the small groups instead. [18:15] Chloe Sonic: good night all! any chance you could email the transcript Rebecca? Unless you are posting after office hours tonight. Thanks! [18:15] You: office hours are open to at-large participants. [18:15] You: in fact, we like it very much when you come. [18:16] Aphilo Aarde: Great. Thanks. I'll come as often as I can. [18:16] Mobile Widget: me too [18:16] Jared Halleck: Me too. [18:16] You: Chloe, I'll email you the transcript. [18:16] crislc Amdahl: i know a few more were planned, but wasn't counting on every thu. out of curiosity, is there actually a way to only allow students onto the island? [18:16] Chloe Sonic: great-thanks!! [18:16] crislc Amdahl: i.e. restrict it to group members? [18:16] You: we use the groups as a way to restrict who can come on the island. [18:17] Dancer Morris: yes, you can do that [18:17] You: because the island can only support about 45 people and we have 40 students plus me gene ansible and eon. [18:17] You: Hi Eon! [18:17] You: (Eon is Prof. Nesson for those who don't know) [18:17] You: But in here he's more inexperienced than all of you! [18:17] Eon Berkman: hi becc [18:18] Wolfbuzz Goheen: This whole thing is just blowing my mind away. [18:18] You: For at-large participants, we are looking for someone interested in representing us for the CBS evening news piece on the course. [18:18] You: As per the email from today. [18:18] You: Just thought I'd mention in case that's appealing to some of you. [18:18] Aphilo Aarde: I'm happy to do this, although I didn't get the e-mail. [18:18] You: (National TV, no less!) [18:19] You: Aphilo, are you on our mailing list? [18:19] Aphilo Aarde: I'm on some e-mail lists. [18:19] You: http://groups.google.com/group/cyberone [18:19] Aphilo Aarde: i thought so. [18:19] You: that's where I sent the email about it. [18:19] You: same one as telling about these office hours. [18:20] Dancer Morris: I imagine you've already found people to represent HLS and Extension [18:20] Aphilo Aarde: I'm actually have not been checking that new account that regularly yet. I shall. [18:20] Mobile Widget: haha - just like the Linden agreement... I don't think I made it to the end! [18:20] Mobile Widget: :) [18:20] Eon Berkman: hey crisic [18:20] You: So are there any issues or ideas from the lectures that you'd like to discuss while Eon is here? [18:21] You: Actually, CBS is most interested in the at-large participants. [18:21] You: They are excited that the course is open to anyone who wants to participate. [18:21] Eon Berkman: crisis, i appreciate the work you did on the wiki [18:21] You: Sort of a different angle than some of the other news articles. [18:21] Aphilo Aarde: Why is that? [18:21] Dancer Morris: it will be interesting to see what they do with it [18:21] Dancer Morris: SL has gotten a lot of press... some good, some bad [18:21] You: so far the press about our course has been quite good. [18:22] Wolfbuzz Goheen: I learned about it from Pop Sci [18:22] Dancer Morris: Here in Boston, we're lucky; The Phoenix has done a couple of very good articles, including one about this class [18:22] You: I think a couple more law students are on the way... [18:23] crislc Amdahl: my pleasure, eon [18:23] crislc Amdahl: the course wiki is probably my favorite aspect [18:24] You: that's interesting, crislc [18:24] Eon Berkman: keep it up. your work makes it better for everyone [18:24] You: what do you think about the comparison between wikipedia and SL? [18:24] You: To me they are quite similar in some interesting ways. [18:24] crislc Amdahl: there are similarities, but I think that the course wiki is only one aspect [18:25] Dancer Morris: one essential difference is that SL gives you property rights over specific areas (land and owned objects) [18:25] You: oh, that's interesting. [18:25] You: in wikipedia you never get total ownership of anything. [18:25] crislc Amdahl: the idea of communally shared knowledge is the idea behind study groups...which have been around for awhile ;-) [18:25] You: you can exert some control, but you can't own. [18:25] crislc Amdahl: which is true on the course wiki [18:25] Aphilo Aarde: Both are expressions of open information exchange, and collaboration, but SL is potentially market oriented, while wikipedia is a very good example of Benkler's nonmarket information production. [18:25] crislc Amdahl: even for the weeks pages, which someone is accountable for [18:25] crislc Amdahl: right on, aphilo [18:26] Tempus Folsom: Good noght all--gotta run [18:26] Aphilo Aarde: However, both allow for nonmarket information exchange. [18:26] crislc Amdahl: 'nite tempus [18:26] You: it seems like a lot of the stuff produced in LL is also non-market production. [18:26] Dancer Morris: indeed -- have you looked at the script library? [18:27] crislc Amdahl: actually, i think the DRM is the stronger difference [18:27] crislc Amdahl: not the market potential, but the ability of the source to control the content throughout its lifecycle. [18:27] You: can you say more crislc? [18:27] Portia Taiyang: I have also got to go. Good night, I had a good time. Very interesting topics. [18:27] crislc Amdahl: in wikipedia, you can't control the content after you create it [18:27] You: Good night portia. [18:27] crislc Amdahl: in SL, you can create rules that others are bound to follow [18:27] Dancer Morris: the control is incomplete though [18:27] crislc Amdahl: it's not absolute [18:27] crislc Amdahl: but it's present [18:28] Eon Berkman: hey violet [18:28] crislc Amdahl: in wikipedia, your information is manageable by anyone [18:28] crislc Amdahl: in SL, your scripts/skins/etc can act as their own agents [18:28] Eon Berkman: have a seat [18:28] Dancer Morris: Some people would really like to have the ability to set a maximum price on things [18:28] You: you can control, but takes a lot of time to do it. [18:28] crislc Amdahl: you can empower them to defend against modification, for example [18:28] Dancer Morris: so you could give them away but not sell them [18:28] Jared Halleck: I have to go now. Good night to all. I hope to see you at another session. [18:28] Pilan Tamale: i had sme truble today [18:28] Eon Berkman: put your pointer on a seat and right click [18:28] You: goodnight jared. [18:28] You: thanks for coming! [18:29] Aphilo Aarde: SL froze. [18:29] Dancer Morris: I'm having a rez problem; I'm going to relog. See you in a minute or two [18:29] Egon Spengler is Online [18:29] You: how was your tour pilan? [18:29] OWENIMATIONS DUO DANCER: OWENIMATIONS DUO DANCER v3.4 -- type /99help for instructions [18:29] crislc Amdahl: it's true that it's hard to control in SL, but it's impossible to control in wikipedia. you end up with problems like vandalism [18:29] Eon Berkman: hey violet, do you read me [18:29] You: but wikipedia actually has the vandalism pretty well controlled. [18:30] Pilan Tamale: i think i need to try it again on a better computer [18:30] You: so they are controlling it in spite of the lack of ownership. [18:30] crislc Amdahl: because of the community [18:30] You: using community policing. [18:30] crislc Amdahl: someone is acting against the vandals [18:30] Pilan Tamale: next time [18:30] You: well thanks for giving it a good try pilan! [18:30] You: Hi Violet! [18:30] crislc Amdahl: as opposed to an article automatically rolling itself back, if certain key words are inserted [18:30] Dancer Morris: something weird is going on... I can hear crislc and Eon, but I can't see either of them [18:31] Wolfbuzz Goheen: happens to me sometimes [18:31] crislc Amdahl: some wikis have simple defenses against bots -- you have to listen to a word, then type it in to prove that you're human [18:31] crislc Amdahl: dancer -- it might be a lag problem. happened to me yesterday evening [18:31] You: Violet is a law student, new to SL tonight! [18:31] You: Would anyone like to give her a tour? [18:31] Aphilo Aarde: Has someone generated Hello [18:31] You: Perhaps around the island and to some other location? [18:31] Aphilo Aarde: Hello Violet. [18:32] crislc Amdahl: I only have about fifteen minutes, but I could do a quick one. unless someone else with more time wants to volunteer? [18:32] Pilan Tamale: I thiknI am going to head out and try again later [18:32] Pilan Tamale: thanks everyone [18:33] You: I think 15 mins would be plenty! [18:33] You: Good night Pilan. [18:33] You: Thanks for coming. [18:33] Aphilo Aarde: Good night Pilan. [18:33] Wolfbuzz Goheen: afk [18:33] You: crislc, you can add Violet to your friends list and take her on a short tour. [18:33] crislc Amdahl: okay, i can do the tour then [18:33] You: Definitely check out Austin. [18:34] crislc Amdahl: as in Austin hall, next to here? [18:34] Dancer Morris: yes, it's always a good place to start [18:34] You: yeah, since it is a replica of a building she knows in RL, it is fun to see! [18:34] crislc Amdahl: violet, are you getting any of the IMs I sent? [18:35] Violet Flax: i'm here [18:35] Eon Berkman accepted your inventory offer. [18:35] Steve Lapointe: Did someone say tour? [18:35] You: Yes steve! [18:35] Violet Flax: i'm ready for the tour [18:35] You: Another law student is coming momentarily. [18:35] You: Diane Luke. [18:35] Steve Lapointe: Cool! [18:35] crislc Amdahl: great! violet and I will head out, then [18:36] Violet Flax: cool, another friend is coming now can we wait one second [18:36] You: Hi Jem [18:36] You: Are you a law student? [18:37] Violet Flax: here she is [18:37] crislc Amdahl: did you want to do a joint tour, violet? [18:37] Violet Flax: we're ready [18:37] Diane Luke: of course [18:37] Diane Luke: aren't i cute? [18:37] You: jem, are you a law student? [18:37] Aphilo Aarde: Hello Jem [18:38] You: Steve, can you give Diane Luke a tour? [18:38] Diane Luke: ok [18:38] You: Can you take her around Berkman island and maybe somewhere else? [18:38] Diane Luke: YES! [18:38] Steve Lapointe: Yes! [18:38] Dancer Morris: you're both in one of the outfits that is available at signup [18:39] You: Hi Jem, [18:39] You: are you a law student? [18:39] Jem Welch: yes i'm a law student [18:39] You: great! [18:39] Eon Berkman: hi dianee [18:39] Diane Luke: hi [18:39] Diane Luke: ok! [18:39] Eon Berkman: like your tunic [18:39] Aphilo Aarde: Hello Diane [18:39] Diane Luke: hi! [18:39] You: why don't you join the tour that Steve Lapointe is leading? [18:39] Diane Luke: im ready [18:39] Jem Welch: oh, ok - thanks [18:39] You: Steve, can you take Jem with you too? [18:40] Jem Welch: hi steve i'm joining your tour if that's ok [18:40] Steve Lapointe: Wlcome Jem! [18:40] Jem Welch: thanks! [18:40] You: ok, steve, you guys can head out. [18:40] Steve Lapointe: Lets head through the arch.. [18:41] Stephan DuPont: Hi Rebecca, I am have a lot of problems tonight with my connection. [18:41] You: Hi Stephan. [18:41] You: Sorry for the mild chaos! [18:41] Aphilo Aarde: Hello Stephan [18:42] Stephan DuPont: I am not sure this would be a goof time to host a tour. [18:42] You: why not? [18:42] You: Something happening? [18:42] Stephan DuPont: My connection is a bit unstable [18:42] You: Ah, well you don't need to! [18:42] You: No worries. [18:42] Aphilo Aarde: My connection is also tenuous. [18:43] Tetero Lesse gave you Introduction to Neufreistadt. [18:43] You: I don't think any more law students are coming. [18:43] Stephan DuPont: Ok we can give it a shot. [18:43] You: There is no one to give a tour to right now! [18:43] Stephan DuPont: Oh. [18:44] Stephan DuPont: I can give a tour tomorrow anytime during the day or evening [18:44] You: No need for more tours. [18:44] Aphilo Aarde: I'm curious how is the course taking shape relative to what you envisioned, Rebecca? [18:44] You: Although if you want to join one in progress, join the people over in the library area. [18:44] You: There is another tour leader, so it won't matter if your connection isn't great. [18:45] Stephan DuPont: Ok, I would like to debug this problem, I have to contact my ISP. I believe the problem is on their side. [18:45] You: Well it seems like our substantive conversation is winding down. [18:45] You: Anyone have more stuff to talk about or should we just hang out? [18:45] Aphilo Aarde: Yes. [18:46] You: Ah, what's up? [18:46] Aphilo Aarde: I'm curious what the arrangement between Harvard and SL is. [18:46] Stephan DuPont: I am going to sign off nowand resolve my connectivity problems. [18:46] Aphilo Aarde: I'm not sure whether you can talk about it. [18:46] You: We bought the island and we pay rent for it, just like any other land owners here. [18:46] Wolfbuzz Goheen: I was wondering that too. [18:46] Aphilo Aarde: Bye Stephan. [18:46] Stephan DuPont: Bye for now. [18:46] You: But we have no official arrangement with them beyond that. [18:47] You: BY stephan. [18:47] You: bye, i meant. [18:47] Wolfbuzz Goheen: Is Berkman a selectable last name? [18:47] You: No, Berkman is associated with our land. [18:47] You: I think when you buy a private island you get your own last name. [18:47] You: Is that right, Dancer? [18:47] Wolfbuzz Goheen: Ohhh, that's cool. [18:48] Aphilo Aarde: Do you envision developing more courses here in SL? [18:48] You: We have spoken with the education people here (Pathfinder Linden) but they weren't interested in actively supporting us in any way. [18:48] You: I was a little surprised by that, but actually it goes well with the ethos of the place and the goal of the course. [18:48] You: To be able to do this without a lot of capital. [18:48] Dancer Morris: I don't know if a special last name comes automatically with an island, but it is certainly something that LL has done for some customers [18:49] Aphilo Aarde: It seems like buying land here would make one less likely to get kicked out, vis-a-vis the earlier conversation. [18:49] You: I am interested in developing more SL courses and the Berkman Center is actively researching using virtual worlds in education. [18:49] You: of course the guy who got kicked out got kicked out FOR buying land! [18:49] Aphilo Aarde: It's far sighted. [18:49] Aphilo Aarde: :) [18:49] Wolfbuzz Goheen: That's it? Buying land? [18:49] Dancer Morris: but Anshe isn't likely to get kicked out -- she represents too much revenue for LL [18:50] Wolfbuzz Goheen: I missed most of that last conversation. [18:50] Dancer Morris: buying land in auctions that weren't supposed to be open, and getting it for way-below-market prices [18:50] You: who is Anshe? [18:50] Dancer Morris: Anshe Chung -- SL's biggest land baroness [18:50] You: I was just being a little to clever. [18:50] Dancer Morris: she runs the Dreamland sims -- over 100 of them now, plus she buys and sells land on the mainland [18:50] You: I'm not really sure how much protection owning land affords us. [18:51] You: But it does let us make this environment the way we want. [18:51] You: We got the name because we own the land. [18:51] You: I think that was the answer, Wolfbuzz. [18:51] Dancer Morris: because you own the entire island, not just a small plot [18:51] You: right. [18:52] You: a whole private island. [18:52] Aphilo Aarde: I'm interested in developing courses in SL, as well. [18:52] You: (a public private island, in this case) [18:52] You: It is very interesting to try to do it. [18:52] Tetero Lesse: Are there any real advantages to a private person becoming a land owner, or is it just an ego thing? [18:52] You: I have found that certain things work a lot better than I expected and others work less well. [18:52] Dancer Morris: owning land lets you build something that you have control over... [18:52] Aphilo Aarde: How easy is it to just program more land, should you run out? Is the topography 'fixed' in this virtual world? [18:52] You: It turns out that people learn to use SL very quickly and that the quality of group discussions is very good. [18:53] Dancer Morris: and it lets you exclude people from your land if you wish [18:53] Dancer Morris: LL keeps adding more land to the world [18:53] Dancer Morris: each sim (land area) runs on a separate server (well, one CPU in a dual-CPU dual-core box), so adding land also means adding servers [18:53] You: We can have about 40 people on this island at once, so that gives you an idea of how much land you might need. [18:53] Aphilo Aarde: I agree that SL adds an element to discussions, because everyone can chat when they want, and read concurrently. [18:54] You: And SL has great potential for adding other elements. [18:54] You: I am very interested in teaching a programming course in here. [18:54] Tetero Lesse: Interesting. Thanks. [18:54] Aphilo Aarde: Potentially a vast number of innovative elements. [18:54] You: Anything you can build... [18:54] Aphilo Aarde: Yes. [18:54] Wolfbuzz Goheen: Some people have used SL's potential very well. [18:55] Wolfbuzz Goheen: I've been to a Space Flight Museum here in SL. [18:55] Aphilo Aarde: Waht would be helpful about SL for teaching a programming course? [18:55] Wolfbuzz Goheen: Have scale versions of toms of rockets. [18:55] Wolfbuzz Goheen: *tons [18:55] You: We thought we would be trying some more out there stuff, but at this point I'm less sure about it because the value of the class seems to be increased most by real person-to-person discussion and interaction. [18:56] You: It's not that surprising really.... [18:56] You: I'm really having a great time learning to build stuff. [18:57] Aphilo Aarde: Speaking of programming, I'm assuming that scratch is relatively imprecise time-wise in its beta version. [18:57] You: I've gotten quite stuck on my latest project. [18:57] Aphilo Aarde: What are you working on? [18:57] Eon Berkman is Offline [18:57] You: Hmm, what do you mean by imprecise? [18:57] You: Like if you wanted to use it for music or something? [18:58] You: If we go out on the lawn I can show you my build. [18:58] Aphilo Aarde: Vis-a-vis the Bach "invention" I mentioned I was trying to program, a second in one script doesn't execute the same way in another script. [18:58] You: Dancer has already seen an earlier version. [18:58] Aphilo Aarde: I'd like to see your build. [18:58] Wolfbuzz Goheen: I would like to see. [18:59] Wolfbuzz Goheen: That's awsome. [18:59] Aphilo Aarde: Is that a block paint brush? [18:59] You: try walking on it... [18:59] You: or flying over it. [18:59] Wolfbuzz Goheen: That is way cool. [19:00] Wolfbuzz Goheen: So you scripted this yourself? [19:00] You: taking a long time to rez for me... [19:00] Dancer Morris: it's getting a bit laggy as it lays down more and more prims [19:00] Tetero Lesse: Is that all done using the visual interface (Create in the pie menu)? [19:00] Dancer Morris: probably too many scripts running now [19:01] Aphilo Aarde: very nice dance floor. [19:01] Dancer Morris: Tetero -- that's a scripted object; a lot of what it does is in that form [19:01] Dance Floor Tile 3 big: Touched. [19:01] You: hmm. [19:01] You: well. [19:01] You: that's it. [19:01] Tetero Lesse: Hey it's Saturday Night Fever! [19:01] Dance Floor Tile 3 big: Touched. [19:02] You: now i just need a dance club to put it in... [19:02] Dancer Morris: it's pretty though, and very interactive [19:02] You: yeah, i got help making it from someone named Brian Yareach. [19:03] You: Actually, he just gave me the idea from something he made. [19:03] You: I built it myself! [19:03] Aphilo Aarde: Could you create similar walls, and lighting? [19:03] You: Now I am trying to learn to build some flexi hair. [19:03] Aphilo Aarde: It's beautiful. [19:03] You: it costs too much. [19:03] Dancer Morris: yes, you could do the same sort of effect with any object [19:03] You: yeah, you could create walls like this. [19:04] Dancer Morris: but you probably want to try to do more with texture animation, rather than having a separate color on each prim [19:04] You: i don't know anything about texture animation. [19:04] You: I should say, office hours are officially over. [19:04] You: Now it is just hanging out, truly. [19:04] Mobile Widget is Online [19:04] Dancer Morris: something new to learn then! [19:04] You: indeed. [19:05] Dancer Morris: you can set up textures that rotate or shift sideways automatically [19:05] You: oh, that's cool. [19:05] You: I think I am going to have to go back to RL. [19:05] Dancer Morris: OK -- good to see you, Rebecca [19:05] You: Good to see you all too! [19:05] Aphilo Aarde: Rebecca, I have one further question. Do you know if it is possible to archive actions in SL, in the same way that one might save dialogues, for future study? [19:05] Aphilo Aarde: Ah, ok. [19:05] Wolfbuzz Goheen: Nice meeting you Rebecca. [19:06] You: You mean archive gestures and things? [19:06] Dancer Morris: There isn't any general way, no [19:06] Aphilo Aarde: Yes. [19:06] You: It seems like it would be a lot of data. [19:06] Aphilo Aarde: For a library? A Kind of film-like archive? [19:06] Aphilo Aarde: Enormous large ifles. [19:06] You: Oh, you can do machinima. [19:06] Aphilo Aarde: files. [19:06] You: Video of what is happening in world! [19:06] Aphilo Aarde: machinima? [19:06] You: Like in our trailer. [19:07] Aphilo Aarde: yes. [19:07] You: It is built in to the client or you can use 3d party software. [19:07] You: Under the file menu (start/stop movie to disk). [19:07] Dancer Morris: I've heard that the built-in capability is broken though [19:07] You: It takes a lot of disk space and a lot of skill to make it look nice. [19:07] You: Oh, I haven't tried it. [19:07] Dancer Morris: I've never tried it; I don't have a fast enough computer [19:07] You: Our machinimist uses 3d party software. [19:07] You: Tao Takashi [19:08] Aphilo Aarde: I see. But there's no way to go back, if one wanted to re-visit and interesting time or interaction, I assume. [19:08] Dancer Morris: some makers use a second computer, or a video recorder, to capture the video [19:08] You: Not if you didn't record it... [19:08] Aphilo Aarde: Thanks. And thanks for office hours. [19:09] You: You're welcome. [19:09] You: See you soon. [19:11] Autopilot canceled [19:11] Aphilo Aarde: Making an oriental carpet could be very fun.