Difference between revisions of "Jury deliberation Transcript"

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[18:23]  Rebecca Berkman: avatars of the jury, please retire to Austin
+
[18:23]  Rebecca Berkman: avatars of the jury, please retire to Austin Hall to deliberate. Rejoin us when you have reached a verdict.
Hall to deliberate. Rejoin us when you have reached a verdict.
+
 
 
[18:23]  Daisyblue Hefferman: tp please to deliberation site?
 
[18:23]  Daisyblue Hefferman: tp please to deliberation site?
 +
 
[18:23]  Evie Mikazuki is Online
 
[18:23]  Evie Mikazuki is Online
 +
 
[18:23]  Cordelia Moy: THanks.
 
[18:23]  Cordelia Moy: THanks.
 +
 
[18:25]  Cordelia Moy: Hi, everyone.
 
[18:25]  Cordelia Moy: Hi, everyone.
 +
 
[18:25]  Cordelia Moy: Shall we sit?
 
[18:25]  Cordelia Moy: Shall we sit?
 +
 
[18:25]  Nate Grigges: still waiting on DaisyBlue and Teresa
 
[18:25]  Nate Grigges: still waiting on DaisyBlue and Teresa
 +
 
[18:25]  Nate Grigges: hello
 
[18:25]  Nate Grigges: hello
 +
 
[18:25]  Nate Grigges: err, Teresa
 
[18:25]  Nate Grigges: err, Teresa
 +
 
[18:25]  There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot.
 
[18:25]  There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot.
 +
 
[18:25]  Daisyblue Hefferman: sorry got booted.
 
[18:25]  Daisyblue Hefferman: sorry got booted.
 +
 
[18:25]  Nate Grigges: hello DaisyBlue
 
[18:25]  Nate Grigges: hello DaisyBlue
 +
 
[18:25]  The Sojourner is Online
 
[18:25]  The Sojourner is Online
 +
 
[18:26]  Daisyblue Hefferman: ll i swatching lol
 
[18:26]  Daisyblue Hefferman: ll i swatching lol
 +
 
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu: she is relogging
 
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu: she is relogging
 +
 
[18:26]  Cordelia Moy: Not a problem.
 
[18:26]  Cordelia Moy: Not a problem.
 +
 
[18:26]  Cordelia Moy: Is everyone clear about what we need to decide?
 
[18:26]  Cordelia Moy: Is everyone clear about what we need to decide?
 +
 
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu: here T
 
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu: here T
 +
 
[18:26]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes thank you
 
[18:26]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes thank you
 +
 
[18:26]  Daisyblue Hefferman: do we need a foreperson?
 
[18:26]  Daisyblue Hefferman: do we need a foreperson?
 +
 
[18:26]  Nate Grigges nods to Chinadoll.
 
[18:26]  Nate Grigges nods to Chinadoll.
 +
 
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu: we do
 
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu: we do
 +
 
[18:26]  Nate Grigges: Cordelia is it.
 
[18:26]  Nate Grigges: Cordelia is it.
 +
 
[18:26]  No room to sit here, try another spot.
 
[18:26]  No room to sit here, try another spot.
 +
 
[18:26]  Daisyblue Hefferman: ok
 
[18:26]  Daisyblue Hefferman: ok
 +
 
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu: go ahead cor
 
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu: go ahead cor
 +
 
[18:27]  Chinadoll Lulu: and she link dead
 
[18:27]  Chinadoll Lulu: and she link dead
 +
 
[18:27]  Chinadoll Lulu: oops she is here
 
[18:27]  Chinadoll Lulu: oops she is here
[18:27]  Cordelia Moy: Okay Well, first of all, does anyone want to offer any
+
 
thoughts before we take up the question?
+
 
 +
[18:27]  Cordelia Moy: Okay Well, first of all, does anyone want to offer any thoughts before we take up the question?
 +
 
 
[18:27]  Nate Grigges: did Rebecca leave?
 
[18:27]  Nate Grigges: did Rebecca leave?
 +
 
[18:28]  Cordelia Moy: Soory Yuu.
 
[18:28]  Cordelia Moy: Soory Yuu.
 +
 
[18:28]  Yuu Nakamichi: no problem..
 
[18:28]  Yuu Nakamichi: no problem..
 +
 
[18:28]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no, let's vote on 1 first
 
[18:28]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no, let's vote on 1 first
 +
 
[18:28]  Chinadoll Lulu: mmhmmm
 
[18:28]  Chinadoll Lulu: mmhmmm
 +
 
[18:28]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes becca left
 
[18:28]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes becca left
 +
 
[18:28]  Nate Grigges: is there no discussion on #1?
 
[18:28]  Nate Grigges: is there no discussion on #1?
 +
 
[18:28]  Cordelia Moy: Tetero, Chuch, NAte . . . any thoughts?
 
[18:28]  Cordelia Moy: Tetero, Chuch, NAte . . . any thoughts?
 +
 
[18:28]  Chinadoll Lulu: 1. those who agree, say aye...
 
[18:28]  Chinadoll Lulu: 1. those who agree, say aye...
 +
 
[18:28]  Daisyblue Hefferman: aye
 
[18:28]  Daisyblue Hefferman: aye
 +
 
[18:28]  Nate Grigges: I think the question of ownership bears discussion
 
[18:28]  Nate Grigges: I think the question of ownership bears discussion
 +
 
[18:28]  Chuck Commons: aye
 
[18:28]  Chuck Commons: aye
 +
 
[18:28]  Chinadoll Lulu: aye
 
[18:28]  Chinadoll Lulu: aye
 +
 
[18:28]  Alan Lederberg: would someone repeat the question?
 
[18:28]  Alan Lederberg: would someone repeat the question?
[18:29]  Nate Grigges: first: Prior to the exploit, was he the owner
+
 
of the property that he had purchased?
+
[18:29]  Nate Grigges: first: Prior to the exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased?
 +
 
 
[18:29]  Cordelia Moy: Yes. Go ahead Nate. Please rep
 
[18:29]  Cordelia Moy: Yes. Go ahead Nate. Please rep
 +
 
[18:29]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes please I think I missed the questions
 
[18:29]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes please I think I missed the questions
 +
 
[18:29]  Nate Grigges: that was the first question
 
[18:29]  Nate Grigges: that was the first question
[18:29]  Chinadoll Lulu: [18:21] Eon Berkman: first: Prior to the
+
 
exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased?
+
[18:29]  Chinadoll Lulu: [18:21] Eon Berkman: first: Prior to the exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased? [18:21] Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property? [18:22] Chip Midnight is Online [18:22] Eon Berkman: then consider the third: [18:22] Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?\
[18:21] Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then
+
 
consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit
 
improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?
 
[18:22] Chip Midnight is Online [18:22] Eon Berkman: then consider the
 
third: [18:22] Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it
 
justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?
 
 
[18:23] Stella Naumova is Online
 
[18:23] Stella Naumova is Online
 +
 
[18:29]  Cordelia Moy: Thanks. Nate, would you like to start discussion?
 
[18:29]  Cordelia Moy: Thanks. Nate, would you like to start discussion?
[18:30]  Nate Grigges: I am somewhat on the fence about number one.
+
 
Yes, I think members have the rights to their Intellectual Property
+
[18:30]  Nate Grigges: I am somewhat on the fence about number one. Yes, I think members have the rights to their Intellectual Property here, and Yes, Rosedale seems to have stated that ownership here means ownership completely. But is it reasonable to think there might be some limitations on that ownership?
here, and Yes, Rosedale seems to have stated that ownership here means
+
 
ownership completely. But is it reasonable to think there might be
 
some limitations on that ownership?
 
 
[18:31]  Nate Grigges: I mean, if SL were to be bankrupt and destroyed tomorrow
 
[18:31]  Nate Grigges: I mean, if SL were to be bankrupt and destroyed tomorrow
 +
 
[18:31]  Lapin Paris is Offline
 
[18:31]  Lapin Paris is Offline
[18:31]  Nate Grigges: could I send them a letter and ask for my
+
 
"house" on a disk?
+
[18:31]  Nate Grigges: could I send them a letter and ask for my "house" on a disk?
[18:31]  Cordelia Moy: I kind of wondered about that as well, Nate. But from a
+
 
different angle.
+
[18:31]  Cordelia Moy: I kind of wondered about that as well, Nate. But from a different angle.
 +
 
 
[18:31]  Daisyblue Hefferman: but we should get our money back
 
[18:31]  Daisyblue Hefferman: but we should get our money back
[18:31]  Yuu Nakamichi:  I think that the notion of property in sl is
+
 
a fallacy - it is a concept that facilitates exchange in-world but it
+
[18:31]  Yuu Nakamichi:  I think that the notion of property in sl is a fallacy - it is a concept that facilitates exchange in-world but it has no bearing on the fact that the lab owns the asset servers
has no bearing on the fact that the lab owns the asset servers
+
 
[18:32]  Chinadoll Lulu: pardon me, Nate, the question was if he is
+
[18:32]  Chinadoll Lulu: pardon me, Nate, the question was if he is the owner of the property that he had purhcased, not about limitations.... so would it be fair to say that he is the owner of the property that he had purhcased with limitations then?
the owner of the property that he had purhcased, not about
+
 
limitations.... so would it be fair to say that he is the owner of the
 
property that he had purhcased with limitations then?
 
 
[18:32]  Nate Grigges: I think that would be reasonable Chinadoll
 
[18:32]  Nate Grigges: I think that would be reasonable Chinadoll
[18:32]  Tetero Lesse: My feeling is that in RL there are parallel
+
 
limitations on ownership. After you die, you can't own something, for
+
[18:32]  Tetero Lesse: My feeling is that in RL there are parallel limitations on ownership. After you die, you can't own something, for ex.
ex.
+
 
[18:32]  Cordelia Moy: If our friend Bragg is kicked out of 2nd life, what
+
[18:32]  Cordelia Moy: If our friend Bragg is kicked out of 2nd life, what would he do with the propoerty. It's meaningless outside of SL, right?
would he do with the propoerty. It's meaningless outside of SL, right?
+
 
[18:32]  Yuu Nakamichi: / so I would say that he was the owner only
+
[18:32]  Yuu Nakamichi: / so I would say that he was the owner only for the in-wrold purposes
for the in-wrold purposes
+
 
 
[18:33]  Cordelia Moy: Yuu I think I would afree.
 
[18:33]  Cordelia Moy: Yuu I think I would afree.
 +
 
[18:33]  Alan Lederberg: did he purchase any of his property with US$?
 
[18:33]  Alan Lederberg: did he purchase any of his property with US$?
 +
 
[18:33]  Cordelia Moy: agree
 
[18:33]  Cordelia Moy: agree
[18:33]  Daisyblue Hefferman: I own property here. I consider myself
+
 
the owner of that property until such time as i abandon or sell it
+
[18:33]  Daisyblue Hefferman: I own property here. I consider myself the owner of that property until such time as i abandon or sell it
[18:33]  Nate Grigges: isn't the question whether Mark Bragg owned the
+
 
property though?
+
[18:33]  Nate Grigges: isn't the question whether Mark Bragg owned the property though?
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: purchase any with ot without US$ is not
+
 
really the issue here... sorry to say
+
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: purchase any with ot without US$ is not really the issue here... sorry to say
 +
 
 
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: it can be purchase with japanese yen
 
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: it can be purchase with japanese yen
[18:34]  Chuck Commons: I would tend to agree with Yuu's point, though
+
 
I would imagine that there are parallels to ownership in RL for
+
[18:34]  Chuck Commons: I would tend to agree with Yuu's point, though I would imagine that there are parallels to ownership in RL for facillitating exchange.
facillitating exchange.
+
 
 
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: or Hong kong dollar
 
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: or Hong kong dollar
 +
 
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: or a candy
 
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: or a candy
 +
 
[18:34]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no, all leagal tender
 
[18:34]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no, all leagal tender
[18:35]  Tetero Lesse: It was Linden Labs that promoted the idea of
+
 
property, rather than fee for use.
+
[18:35]  Tetero Lesse: It was Linden Labs that promoted the idea of property, rather than fee for use.
[18:35]  Alan Lederberg: well, its seems it gets to the issue of
+
 
owning it in SL or RL
+
[18:35]  Alan Lederberg: well, its seems it gets to the issue of owning it in SL or RL
 +
 
 
[18:35]  Cordelia Moy: Yes, Tetero? Meaning what?
 
[18:35]  Cordelia Moy: Yes, Tetero? Meaning what?
 +
 
[18:35]  Chinadoll Lulu: ok guys, ooc, we have a tiem limiatation here
 
[18:35]  Chinadoll Lulu: ok guys, ooc, we have a tiem limiatation here
 +
 
[18:35]  Chinadoll Lulu: can we stick to question 1
 
[18:35]  Chinadoll Lulu: can we stick to question 1
[18:35]  Chuck Commons: I see the limitations, but would still think
+
 
of this as a "yea". Both sides agree to it as does vast majority of SL
+
[18:35]  Chuck Commons: I see the limitations, but would still think of this as a "yea". Both sides agree to it as does vast majority of SL users.
users.
+
 
 
[18:35]  Chinadoll Lulu: please?
 
[18:35]  Chinadoll Lulu: please?
 +
 
[18:36]  Cordelia Moy: Chinadoll, thanks. I'd like to hear the rest of the discussion.
 
[18:36]  Cordelia Moy: Chinadoll, thanks. I'd like to hear the rest of the discussion.
 +
 
[18:36]  Cordelia Moy: It will only take a minute or two.
 
[18:36]  Cordelia Moy: It will only take a minute or two.
[18:36]  Nate Grigges: alright, I think I've made my decision,
+
 
everyone else prepared to vote?
+
[18:36]  Nate Grigges: alright, I think I've made my decision, everyone else prepared to vote?
 +
 
 
[18:36]  Daisyblue Hefferman: yes
 
[18:36]  Daisyblue Hefferman: yes
[18:36]  Tetero Lesse: Well, on that basis I'd say Bragg was justified
+
 
in thinking he owned property in SL and I would agree with that
+
[18:36]  Tetero Lesse: Well, on that basis I'd say Bragg was justified in thinking he owned property in SL and I would agree with that construct based on LL's pronouncemtns
construct based on LL's pronouncemtns
+
 
 
[18:36]  Cordelia Moy: Everyone ready to vote please say "yes"
 
[18:36]  Cordelia Moy: Everyone ready to vote please say "yes"
 +
 
[18:36]  Daisyblue Hefferman: yes
 
[18:36]  Daisyblue Hefferman: yes
 +
 
[18:36]  Nate Grigges: yes
 
[18:36]  Nate Grigges: yes
 +
 
[18:36]  Tetero Lesse: yes
 
[18:36]  Tetero Lesse: yes
 +
 
[18:36]  Cordelia Moy: yes
 
[18:36]  Cordelia Moy: yes
 +
 
[18:36]  Yuu Nakamichi: yes
 
[18:36]  Yuu Nakamichi: yes
 +
 
[18:37]  Alan Lederberg: yes
 
[18:37]  Alan Lederberg: yes
 +
 
[18:37]  Lapin Paris is Online
 
[18:37]  Lapin Paris is Online
 +
 
[18:37]  Cordelia Moy: chuch?
 
[18:37]  Cordelia Moy: chuch?
 +
 
[18:37]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes
 
[18:37]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes
 +
 
[18:37]  Chuck Commons: yeah
 
[18:37]  Chuck Commons: yeah
 +
 
[18:37]  Cordelia Moy: Okay. Did Bragg own property prior to the exploit?
 
[18:37]  Cordelia Moy: Okay. Did Bragg own property prior to the exploit?
 +
 
[18:37]  Daisyblue Hefferman: yes
 
[18:37]  Daisyblue Hefferman: yes
 +
 
[18:37]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes
 
[18:37]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes
 +
 
[18:37]  Alan Lederberg: yes
 
[18:37]  Alan Lederberg: yes
 +
 
[18:37]  Chuck Commons: yes
 
[18:37]  Chuck Commons: yes
 +
 
[18:37]  Tetero Lesse: yes
 
[18:37]  Tetero Lesse: yes
 +
 
[18:37]  Yuu Nakamichi: no
 
[18:37]  Yuu Nakamichi: no
 +
 
[18:37]  Nate Grigges: yes
 
[18:37]  Nate Grigges: yes
 +
 
[18:38]  Cordelia Moy: yes
 
[18:38]  Cordelia Moy: yes
 +
 
[18:38]  Chinadoll Lulu: yes
 
[18:38]  Chinadoll Lulu: yes
 +
 
[18:38]  Cordelia Moy: Okay so majority vote on 1 is yes, in favor of the plaintiff.
 
[18:38]  Cordelia Moy: Okay so majority vote on 1 is yes, in favor of the plaintiff.
 +
 
[18:38]  Cordelia Moy: Question 2 --Chinadoll, can you call up the text again?
 
[18:38]  Cordelia Moy: Question 2 --Chinadoll, can you call up the text again?
 +
 
[18:38]  JJ Drinkwater is Offline
 
[18:38]  JJ Drinkwater is Offline
[18:39]  Nate Grigges: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was
+
 
justified in taking his property?
+
[18:39]  Nate Grigges: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?
 +
 
 
[18:39]  Nate Grigges: (that was #2)
 
[18:39]  Nate Grigges: (that was #2)
 +
 
[18:39]  Cordelia Moy: Thanks. Thoughts?
 
[18:39]  Cordelia Moy: Thanks. Thoughts?
 +
 
[18:39]  Daisyblue Hefferman: i don't think LL proved it was improper
 
[18:39]  Daisyblue Hefferman: i don't think LL proved it was improper
[18:39]  Nate Grigges: I think it was clearly improper, although I
+
 
think LL did a horrific job of protecting their system
+
[18:39]  Nate Grigges: I think it was clearly improper, although I think LL did a horrific job of protecting their system
[18:39]  Daisyblue Hefferman: they said he knew it was wrong, but
+
 
didn't prove it
+
[18:39]  Daisyblue Hefferman: they said he knew it was wrong, but didn't prove it
[18:40]  Chinadoll Lulu: [18:21] Eon Berkman: first: Prior to the
+
 
exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased?
+
[18:40]  Chinadoll Lulu: [18:21] Eon Berkman: first: Prior to the exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased? [18:21] Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property? [18:22] Chip Midnight is Online [18:22] Eon Berkman: then consider the third: [18:22] Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?
[18:21] Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then
+
 
consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit
 
improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?
 
[18:22] Chip Midnight is Online [18:22] Eon Berkman: then consider the
 
third: [18:22] Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it
 
justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?
 
 
[18:40]  Teresa Cinquetti: I agree with Nate
 
[18:40]  Teresa Cinquetti: I agree with Nate
 +
 
[18:40]  Cordelia Moy: I think it was improper, too.
 
[18:40]  Cordelia Moy: I think it was improper, too.
 +
 
[18:40]  Cordelia Moy: Thanks, China.
 
[18:40]  Cordelia Moy: Thanks, China.
 +
 
[18:40]  Yuu Nakamichi: / I agree. Bragg behaved like a black hat (hacker)
 
[18:40]  Yuu Nakamichi: / I agree. Bragg behaved like a black hat (hacker)
 +
 
[18:40]  Yuu Nakamichi: / by finding and exploiting a flaw
 
[18:40]  Yuu Nakamichi: / by finding and exploiting a flaw
[18:40]  Nate Grigges: You are right that they didn't really do much
+
 
to prove it Daisy
+
[18:40]  Nate Grigges: You are right that they didn't really do much to prove it Daisy
[18:40]  Daisyblue Hefferman: I am an expert google or anything
+
 
searcher. If i came upon such an auction, hell, yes, I'd bid
+
[18:40]  Daisyblue Hefferman: I am an expert google or anything searcher. If i came upon such an auction, hell, yes, I'd bid
[18:40]  Chinadoll Lulu: does not matter how bad the security is/was,
+
 
stealing is stealing
+
[18:40]  Chinadoll Lulu: does not matter how bad the security is/was, stealing is stealing
 +
 
 
[18:40]  Yuu Nakamichi: / instead of a white hat
 
[18:40]  Yuu Nakamichi: / instead of a white hat
[18:40]  Tetero Lesse: I think 2 is really about whether LL was
+
 
justified in taking property illegally gained.
+
[18:40]  Tetero Lesse: I think 2 is really about whether LL was justified in taking property illegally gained.
 +
 
 
[18:40]  Nate Grigges: I am surprised you say that, as a property owner, Daisy
 
[18:40]  Nate Grigges: I am surprised you say that, as a property owner, Daisy
 +
 
[18:41]  Tetero Lesse: Question 3 is about taking property legally purchased.
 
[18:41]  Tetero Lesse: Question 3 is about taking property legally purchased.
 +
 
[18:41]  Nate Grigges: that's #3 Tetero
 
[18:41]  Nate Grigges: that's #3 Tetero
[18:41]  Daisyblue Hefferman: nowhere did the page say it was wrong,
+
 
and it accepted the bid
+
[18:41]  Daisyblue Hefferman: nowhere did the page say it was wrong, and it accepted the bid
[18:41]  Chuck Commons: I'm on the line. It didn't seem clear that
+
 
exploiting google was really stealing.
+
[18:41]  Chuck Commons: I'm on the line. It didn't seem clear that exploiting google was really stealing.
[18:41]  Cordelia Moy: So is the problem that despite our feelings, we don't
+
 
have evidence he was deliberate in the exploitatio?
+
[18:41]  Cordelia Moy: So is the problem that despite our feelings, we don't have evidence he was deliberate in the exploitatio?
 +
 
 
[18:41]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no, chuck, it didn't
 
[18:41]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no, chuck, it didn't
 +
 
[18:41]  Lorelei Junot is Online
 
[18:41]  Lorelei Junot is Online
[18:41]  Chinadoll Lulu: knowing that you can beat the system with an
+
 
unfair advantage is an exploit
+
[18:41]  Chinadoll Lulu: knowing that you can beat the system with an unfair advantage is an exploit
 +
 
 
[18:41]  Cordelia Moy: I wish that had been more fully discussed.
 
[18:41]  Cordelia Moy: I wish that had been more fully discussed.
[18:41]  Chinadoll Lulu: it does not matter if you are the first one
+
 
who discover it
+
[18:41]  Chinadoll Lulu: it does not matter if you are the first one who discover it
 +
 
 
[18:41]  Daisyblue Hefferman: did he know it was?
 
[18:41]  Daisyblue Hefferman: did he know it was?
 +
 
[18:42]  Cordelia Moy: I agree, China. But did he know he was?
 
[18:42]  Cordelia Moy: I agree, China. But did he know he was?
[18:42]  Nate Grigges: I don't think the google method was hacking,
+
 
but I think Bragg realized he would be bidding with no competition
+
[18:42]  Nate Grigges: I don't think the google method was hacking, but I think Bragg realized he would be bidding with no competition
 +
 
 
[18:42]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no one proved he did
 
[18:42]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no one proved he did
[18:42]  Yuu Nakamichi: / I think it is hard to make a distinction
+
 
between googlin gna dhacking when it comes to url spoffing
+
[18:42]  Yuu Nakamichi: / I think it is hard to make a distinction between googlin gna dhacking when it comes to url spoffing
 +
 
 
[18:42]  Yuu Nakamichi: *spoofing*
 
[18:42]  Yuu Nakamichi: *spoofing*
[18:42]  Chuck Commons: If I figured this out, I would have assumed it
+
 
was a decently known secret.
+
[18:42]  Chuck Commons: If I figured this out, I would have assumed it was a decently known secret.
[18:42]  Teresa Cinquetti: I personally think that it was wrong and he
+
 
may or may not have known it was wrong. LL was not diligent in
+
[18:42]  Teresa Cinquetti: I personally think that it was wrong and he may or may not have known it was wrong. LL was not diligent in protecting the system
protecting the system
+
 
 
[18:42]  Daisyblue Hefferman: googling is not hacking
 
[18:42]  Daisyblue Hefferman: googling is not hacking
 +
 
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: that is monopoly
 
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: that is monopoly
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: he clearly know that he can gain the land
+
 
with a low price when everyone else could not beat against him
+
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: he clearly know that he can gain the land with a low price when everyone else could not beat against him
 +
 
 
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: creating a bid that only you can bid on it
 
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: creating a bid that only you can bid on it
 +
 
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: that is purely greedy
 
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: that is purely greedy
 +
 
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: and selfish
 
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: and selfish
 +
 
[18:42]  Daisyblue Hefferman: we don't know that
 
[18:42]  Daisyblue Hefferman: we don't know that
[18:42]  Cordelia Moy: Teresa, I suspect he knew, but I didn't see the evidence
+
 
he knew. That's the rubl
+
[18:42]  Cordelia Moy: Teresa, I suspect he knew, but I didn't see the evidence he knew. That's the rubl
 +
 
[18:43]  Daisyblue Hefferman: it was not proven, his intent or knowledge
 
[18:43]  Daisyblue Hefferman: it was not proven, his intent or knowledge
 +
 
[18:43]  Cordelia Moy: rub!
 
[18:43]  Cordelia Moy: rub!
[18:43]  Nate Grigges: if it was a known issue, nobody would
+
 
participate in the regular auctions
+
[18:43]  Nate Grigges: if it was a known issue, nobody would participate in the regular auctions
 +
 
 
[18:43]  Teresa Cinquetti: I agree Cordelia
 
[18:43]  Teresa Cinquetti: I agree Cordelia
 +
 
[18:43]  Yuu Nakamichi: I agree, Cordelia, unforotunaely it si not clear
 
[18:43]  Yuu Nakamichi: I agree, Cordelia, unforotunaely it si not clear
 +
 
[18:43]  Cordelia Moy: Teteroo, Alan, Chuck?
 
[18:43]  Cordelia Moy: Teteroo, Alan, Chuck?
[18:43]  Chuck Commons: I'm not saying what he did was good. Just that
+
 
it wasn't clearly a illegal exploit
+
[18:43]  Chuck Commons: I'm not saying what he did was good. Just that it wasn't clearly a illegal exploit
 +
 
 
[18:43]  Cordelia Moy: This is where the law binds us, I think.
 
[18:43]  Cordelia Moy: This is where the law binds us, I think.
[18:43]  Daisyblue Hefferman: so we can give our opinion based on the
+
 
evidence given only
+
[18:43]  Daisyblue Hefferman: so we can give our opinion based on the evidence given only
[18:44]  Nate Grigges: I think you can give your opinion based on any
+
 
knowledge you have
+
[18:44]  Nate Grigges: I think you can give your opinion based on any knowledge you have
 +
 
 
[18:44]  Daisyblue Hefferman: well i don't have knowledge he id it maliciously
 
[18:44]  Daisyblue Hefferman: well i don't have knowledge he id it maliciously
[18:44]  Tetero Lesse: In this trial, I think Bragg said or intimated
+
 
that he knew it was wrong - regardless of what the real Bragg thought.
+
[18:44]  Tetero Lesse: In this trial, I think Bragg said or intimated that he knew it was wrong - regardless of what the real Bragg thought.
 +
 
 
[18:44]  Cordelia Moy: Can you remind us where?
 
[18:44]  Cordelia Moy: Can you remind us where?
[18:44]  Nate Grigges: the trial is intended to bring out any relevant
+
 
info, but in this case it seems to have left some out
+
[18:44]  Nate Grigges: the trial is intended to bring out any relevant info, but in this case it seems to have left some out
 +
 
 
[18:45]  Tetero Lesse: Can we get the court steno to read back the transcript?
 
[18:45]  Tetero Lesse: Can we get the court steno to read back the transcript?
 +
 
[18:45]  Cordelia Moy: It would be great to have evidence for what we feel.
 
[18:45]  Cordelia Moy: It would be great to have evidence for what we feel.
[18:45]  Daisyblue Hefferman: i kept waiting for the lawyers to ask
+
 
the right questions
+
[18:45]  Daisyblue Hefferman: i kept waiting for the lawyers to ask the right questions
 +
 
 
[18:45]  Yuu Nakamichi: I am lookigng at the trasncript now
 
[18:45]  Yuu Nakamichi: I am lookigng at the trasncript now
[18:45]  Teresa Cinquetti: my opinion is that LL was not justified in
+
 
taking anything. They had the right to suspend his account but not
+
[18:45]  Teresa Cinquetti: my opinion is that LL was not justified in taking anything. They had the right to suspend his account but not take his holdings since it was not against any Tos that was proven out in the court
take his holdings since it was not against any Tos that was proven out
+
 
in the court
 
 
[18:45]  Cordelia Moy: Thanks, Yuu (and everyone). I'll look too
 
[18:45]  Cordelia Moy: Thanks, Yuu (and everyone). I'll look too
 +
 
[18:45]  Nate Grigges: me too Daisy
 
[18:45]  Nate Grigges: me too Daisy
[18:45]  Chuck Commons: Of course if the property is gained via an
+
 
undocumented activity, I suppose it can fairly be taken away in a
+
[18:45]  Chuck Commons: Of course if the property is gained via an undocumented activity, I suppose it can fairly be taken away in a similar way.
similar way.
+
 
 
[18:45]  Daisyblue Hefferman: i agreee Theresa
 
[18:45]  Daisyblue Hefferman: i agreee Theresa
 +
 
[18:45]  Lorelei Junot is Offline
 
[18:45]  Lorelei Junot is Offline
 +
 
[18:46]  Teresa Cinquetti: morally wrong yes technically wrong no
 
[18:46]  Teresa Cinquetti: morally wrong yes technically wrong no
[18:46]  Chinadoll Lulu: true, i am sure that he violate the TOS, but
+
 
it was NOT proven out in the court, the defendent did a horrible job
+
[18:46]  Chinadoll Lulu: true, i am sure that he violate the TOS, but it was NOT proven out in the court, the defendent did a horrible job
[18:46]  Nate Grigges: do you think he should have kept the land he
+
 
got through the exploit, Teresa?
+
[18:46]  Nate Grigges: do you think he should have kept the land he got through the exploit, Teresa?
[18:46]  Tetero Lesse: Theresa, is there a difference between
+
 
suspending his account and taking his holdings?
+
[18:46]  Tetero Lesse: Theresa, is there a difference between suspending his account and taking his holdings?
[18:46]  Teresa Cinquetti: fromt he lessons that Eon taought the
+
 
purpose of the court is to provide not what is fair but what the
+
[18:46]  Teresa Cinquetti: fromt he lessons that Eon taought the purpose of the court is to provide not what is fair but what the society can tolerate and believe is just
society can tolerate and believe is just
+
 
 
[18:46]  Cordelia Moy: I thought the defendant was excellent. Oh well.
 
[18:46]  Cordelia Moy: I thought the defendant was excellent. Oh well.
 +
 
[18:47]  Chinadoll Lulu: holding = property that can be convert to RL cash
 
[18:47]  Chinadoll Lulu: holding = property that can be convert to RL cash
 +
 
[18:47]  Chinadoll Lulu: suspending his account = no access to the system
 
[18:47]  Chinadoll Lulu: suspending his account = no access to the system
[18:47]  Daisyblue Hefferman: he should at least been allowed to seel
+
 
his prior holdings
+
[18:47]  Daisyblue Hefferman: he should at least been allowed to seel his prior holdings
 +
 
 
[18:47]  Daisyblue Hefferman: sell
 
[18:47]  Daisyblue Hefferman: sell
 +
 
[18:47]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes
 
[18:47]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes
[18:47]  Yuu Nakamichi: I think the plaintiff did not admit to
+
 
exploitative behaviour but it is quite strongly implied
+
[18:47]  Yuu Nakamichi: I think the plaintiff did not admit to exploitative behaviour but it is quite strongly implied
[18:47]  Tetero Lesse: Can it be converted to cash even if someone's
+
 
acct is suspended? Can you participate in an auction w/ a suspended
+
[18:47]  Tetero Lesse: Can it be converted to cash even if someone's acct is suspended? Can you participate in an auction w/ a suspended
 
acct?
 
acct?
[18:47]  Yuu Nakamichi: a day passed and nothing happende, then on may
+
 
2 i received a message...
+
[18:47]  Yuu Nakamichi: a day passed and nothing happende, then on may 2 i received a message...
 +
 
 
[18:47]  Daisyblue Hefferman: and no one asked him!!!!
 
[18:47]  Daisyblue Hefferman: and no one asked him!!!!
[18:48]  Chinadoll Lulu: selling is not via an auction, but asking LL
+
 
to convert the Linden into real dollar
+
[18:48]  Chinadoll Lulu: selling is not via an auction, but asking LL to convert the Linden into real dollar
[18:48]  Teresa Cinquetti: even is it was exploitive, which it was, it
+
 
is still not succinctly a hack per se
+
[18:48]  Teresa Cinquetti: even is it was exploitive, which it was, it is still not succinctly a hack per se
 +
 
 
[18:48]  Yuu Nakamichi: from the lindens end quote
 
[18:48]  Yuu Nakamichi: from the lindens end quote
[18:48]  Cordelia Moy: So the "nothing happened" suggests that he knew he was
+
 
circumventing, Yuu?
+
[18:48]  Cordelia Moy: So the "nothing happened" suggests that he knew he was circumventing, Yuu?
 +
 
 
[18:48]  Daisyblue Hefferman: not a hack
 
[18:48]  Daisyblue Hefferman: not a hack
 +
 
[18:48]  Yuu Nakamichi: I think it could
 
[18:48]  Yuu Nakamichi: I think it could
 +
 
[18:48]  Daisyblue Hefferman: linden's error making the auction available
 
[18:48]  Daisyblue Hefferman: linden's error making the auction available
 +
 
[18:48]  Chinadoll Lulu: exploit or hack, it is an unfair advantage
 
[18:48]  Chinadoll Lulu: exploit or hack, it is an unfair advantage
 +
 
[18:49]  Chinadoll Lulu: does not matter how he did it
 
[18:49]  Chinadoll Lulu: does not matter how he did it
 +
 
[18:49]  Teresa Cinquetti: Walmart is an unfair advantage
 
[18:49]  Teresa Cinquetti: Walmart is an unfair advantage
[18:49]  Daisyblue Hefferman: shouldn't be held responsible for
+
 
Linden's miistake
+
[18:49]  Daisyblue Hefferman: shouldn't be held responsible for Linden's miistake
[18:49]  Chinadoll Lulu: but he did something that will harm the rest
+
 
of the resident of SL
+
[18:49]  Chinadoll Lulu: but he did something that will harm the rest of the resident of SL
 +
 
 
[18:49]  Cordelia Moy: Okay. guys, I'm getting IMs from Becca that we finish by 7 pm.
 
[18:49]  Cordelia Moy: Okay. guys, I'm getting IMs from Becca that we finish by 7 pm.
 +
 
[18:49]  Teresa Cinquetti: we can't take walMart to court
 
[18:49]  Teresa Cinquetti: we can't take walMart to court
[18:49]  Chuck Commons: I'm ready to vote on #2 but imagine we'll have
+
 
a big discusion on #3
+
[18:49]  Chuck Commons: I'm ready to vote on #2 but imagine we'll have a big discusion on #3
 +
 
 
[18:49]  Chinadoll Lulu: that is different
 
[18:49]  Chinadoll Lulu: that is different
 +
 
[18:49]  Chinadoll Lulu: walmart still has to obey the monopoly law
 
[18:49]  Chinadoll Lulu: walmart still has to obey the monopoly law
 +
 
[18:49]  Chinadoll Lulu: in this case
 
[18:49]  Chinadoll Lulu: in this case
[18:49]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no, it hurt ll's pocketbook aout a few
+
 
measly dollars
+
[18:49]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no, it hurt ll's pocketbook aout a few measly dollars
 +
 
 
[18:49]  Tetero Lesse also ready to vote
 
[18:49]  Tetero Lesse also ready to vote
 +
 
[18:49]  Cordelia Moy: Well, based on Yuu's transcript search, I could vote.
 
[18:49]  Cordelia Moy: Well, based on Yuu's transcript search, I could vote.
 +
 
[18:50]  Evie Mikazuki is Offline
 
[18:50]  Evie Mikazuki is Offline
 +
 
[18:50]  Daisyblue Hefferman: 1 L$- .oo3688 USD
 
[18:50]  Daisyblue Hefferman: 1 L$- .oo3688 USD
[18:50]  Chinadoll Lulu: that guy set up a bid prior to the legal time
+
 
and be the only bidder
+
[18:50]  Chinadoll Lulu: that guy set up a bid prior to the legal time and be the only bidder
 +
 
 
[18:50]  Cordelia Moy: Okay, then. All those who believe Bragg did exploit, say yes.
 
[18:50]  Cordelia Moy: Okay, then. All those who believe Bragg did exploit, say yes.
 +
 
[18:50]  Chinadoll Lulu: i do no tknow.
 
[18:50]  Chinadoll Lulu: i do no tknow.
 +
 
[18:50]  Nate Grigges: I am ready to vote
 
[18:50]  Nate Grigges: I am ready to vote
 +
 
[18:50]  Chuck Commons: Yo
 
[18:50]  Chuck Commons: Yo
 +
 
[18:50]  Chuck Commons: Yes
 
[18:50]  Chuck Commons: Yes
 +
 
[18:50]  Yuu Nakamichi: I am ready as well.
 
[18:50]  Yuu Nakamichi: I am ready as well.
 +
 
[18:50]  Tetero Lesse: yes
 
[18:50]  Tetero Lesse: yes
 +
 
[18:50]  Alan Lederberg: yes
 
[18:50]  Alan Lederberg: yes
 +
 
[18:50]  Nate Grigges: wow Daisy, lindens are cheaper than I thought
 
[18:50]  Nate Grigges: wow Daisy, lindens are cheaper than I thought
 +
 
[18:50]  Chinadoll Lulu: yes
 
[18:50]  Chinadoll Lulu: yes
 +
 
[18:50]  Teresa Cinquetti: are we coting now?
 
[18:50]  Teresa Cinquetti: are we coting now?
 +
 
[18:50]  Nate Grigges: yes Cordelia
 
[18:50]  Nate Grigges: yes Cordelia
 +
 
[18:50]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no
 
[18:50]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no
 +
 
[18:50]  Cordelia Moy: Yes.
 
[18:50]  Cordelia Moy: Yes.
 +
 
[18:51]  Daisyblue Hefferman: yup
 
[18:51]  Daisyblue Hefferman: yup
 +
 
[18:51]  Chinadoll Lulu: 1000 linden is $4 USD
 
[18:51]  Chinadoll Lulu: 1000 linden is $4 USD
 +
 
[18:51]  Cordelia Moy: Yes, Teresa.
 
[18:51]  Cordelia Moy: Yes, Teresa.
 +
 
[18:51]  Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such
 
[18:51]  Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such
 
that Linden was justified in taking his property?
 
that Linden was justified in taking his property?
 +
 
[18:51]  Yuu Nakamichi: yes
 
[18:51]  Yuu Nakamichi: yes
 +
 
[18:51]  Teresa Cinquetti: are we ready
 
[18:51]  Teresa Cinquetti: are we ready
 +
 
[18:51]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no
 
[18:51]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no
 +
 
[18:51]  Cordelia Moy: Is that 3 Teresa?
 
[18:51]  Cordelia Moy: Is that 3 Teresa?
 +
 
[18:51]  Daisyblue Hefferman: ready
 
[18:51]  Daisyblue Hefferman: ready
 +
 
[18:51]  Chinadoll Lulu: that is 2
 
[18:51]  Chinadoll Lulu: that is 2
 +
 
[18:51]  Cordelia Moy: sorry.
 
[18:51]  Cordelia Moy: sorry.
[18:51]  Chinadoll Lulu: [18:21] Eon Berkman: first: Prior to the
+
 
exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased?
+
[18:51]  Chinadoll Lulu: [18:21] Eon Berkman: first: Prior to the exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased? [18:21] Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property? [18:22] Chip Midnight is Online [18:22] Eon Berkman: then consider the third: [18:22] Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?
[18:21] Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then
+
 
consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit
+
[18:51]  Nate Grigges: wait, I thought that last was are we ready to vote, no what is our vote
improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?
+
 
[18:22] Chip Midnight is Online [18:22] Eon Berkman: then consider the
+
[18:52]  Chinadoll Lulu: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?
third: [18:22] Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it
+
 
justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?
 
[18:51]  Nate Grigges: wait, I thought that last was are we ready to
 
vote, no what is our vote
 
[18:52]  Chinadoll Lulu: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it
 
justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?
 
 
[18:52]  Teresa Cinquetti: thats why I asked Nate
 
[18:52]  Teresa Cinquetti: thats why I asked Nate
 +
 
[18:52]  Cordelia Moy: Hold on@
 
[18:52]  Cordelia Moy: Hold on@
 +
 
[18:52]  Cordelia Moy: Okay. On the count of three, vote. One, two,
 
[18:52]  Cordelia Moy: Okay. On the count of three, vote. One, two,
 +
 
[18:52]  Nate Grigges nods to Teresa.
 
[18:52]  Nate Grigges nods to Teresa.
 +
 
[18:52]  Cordelia Moy: three now
 
[18:52]  Cordelia Moy: three now
 +
 
[18:52]  Daisyblue Hefferman: did we vote on #2?
 
[18:52]  Daisyblue Hefferman: did we vote on #2?
 +
 
[18:52]  Tetero Lesse: on q2 or q3?
 
[18:52]  Tetero Lesse: on q2 or q3?
 +
 
[18:52]  Chinadoll Lulu: aye
 
[18:52]  Chinadoll Lulu: aye
 +
 
[18:52]  Yuu Nakamichi: yes
 
[18:52]  Yuu Nakamichi: yes
[18:52]  Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such
+
 
that Linden was justified in taking his property?
+
[18:52]  Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?
 +
 
 
[18:52]  Nate Grigges: #2 I vote yes, it was improper
 
[18:52]  Nate Grigges: #2 I vote yes, it was improper
 +
 
[18:52]  Teresa Cinquetti: no
 
[18:52]  Teresa Cinquetti: no
 +
 
[18:52]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no
 
[18:52]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no
 +
 
[18:52]  Yuu Nakamichi: #2 yes it was improper
 
[18:52]  Yuu Nakamichi: #2 yes it was improper
 +
 
[18:53]  Chinadoll Lulu: yes it was improper
 
[18:53]  Chinadoll Lulu: yes it was improper
 +
 
[18:53]  Cordelia Moy: QUestion 2. I vote yes
 
[18:53]  Cordelia Moy: QUestion 2. I vote yes
 +
 
[18:53]  Tetero Lesse: on 2 I vote yes
 
[18:53]  Tetero Lesse: on 2 I vote yes
[18:53]  Chuck Commons: my Vote: yes, it was improper, Linden
+
 
justified in taking this property
+
[18:53]  Chuck Commons: my Vote: yes, it was improper, Linden justified in taking this property
 +
 
 
[18:53]  Cordelia Moy: Okay. So majority on question 2.
 
[18:53]  Cordelia Moy: Okay. So majority on question 2.
 +
 
[18:53]  Usu Ventura is Online
 
[18:53]  Usu Ventura is Online
 +
 
[18:53]  Nate Grigges: that's 2 separate questions Chuck
 
[18:53]  Nate Grigges: that's 2 separate questions Chuck
 +
 
[18:53]  Cordelia Moy: yes on 1, yes on 2.
 
[18:53]  Cordelia Moy: yes on 1, yes on 2.
 +
 
[18:53]  Cordelia Moy: NOw 3.
 
[18:53]  Cordelia Moy: NOw 3.
 +
 
[18:53]  Daisyblue Hefferman: 2 is really 2 questions
 
[18:53]  Daisyblue Hefferman: 2 is really 2 questions
[18:53]  Chinadoll Lulu: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it
+
 
justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?
+
[18:53]  Chinadoll Lulu: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?
 +
 
 
[18:53]  Nate Grigges: I think we only got 8 total votes on #2
 
[18:53]  Nate Grigges: I think we only got 8 total votes on #2
 +
 
[18:53]  Alan Lederberg: i agree daiselyblue
 
[18:53]  Alan Lederberg: i agree daiselyblue
 +
 
[18:53]  Cordelia Moy: I know, Daisy. We're being rushed by Becca.
 
[18:53]  Cordelia Moy: I know, Daisy. We're being rushed by Becca.
 +
 
[18:53]  Chinadoll Lulu: nae: it is majority
 
[18:53]  Chinadoll Lulu: nae: it is majority
 +
 
[18:54]  Chinadoll Lulu: nate: so it does not matter
 
[18:54]  Chinadoll Lulu: nate: so it does not matter
 +
 
[18:54]  Nate Grigges: Alan, what was your vote on #2
 
[18:54]  Nate Grigges: Alan, what was your vote on #2
[18:54]  Teresa Cinquetti: lets vote again with just a yes or no
+
 
please on number 2 with no other caht
+
[18:54]  Teresa Cinquetti: lets vote again with just a yes or no please on number 2 with no other caht
 +
 
 
[18:54]  Cordelia Moy: Thoughts on 3?
 
[18:54]  Cordelia Moy: Thoughts on 3?
 +
 
[18:54]  Chuck Commons: 2: Yes
 
[18:54]  Chuck Commons: 2: Yes
 +
 
[18:54]  Alan Lederberg: it was a vaguely worded questions I think
 
[18:54]  Alan Lederberg: it was a vaguely worded questions I think
 +
 
[18:54]  Chinadoll Lulu: Q2 YEs
 
[18:54]  Chinadoll Lulu: Q2 YEs
 +
 
[18:54]  Teresa Cinquetti: 2 No
 
[18:54]  Teresa Cinquetti: 2 No
 +
 
[18:54]  Daisyblue Hefferman: 2. no
 
[18:54]  Daisyblue Hefferman: 2. no
 +
 
[18:54]  Alan Lederberg: 2 yes
 
[18:54]  Alan Lederberg: 2 yes
 +
 
[18:54]  Cordelia Moy: OKAY EVERYONE.
 
[18:54]  Cordelia Moy: OKAY EVERYONE.
 +
 
[18:54]  Cordelia Moy: 2 YES
 
[18:54]  Cordelia Moy: 2 YES
 +
 
[18:54]  Tetero Lesse: 2 yes
 
[18:54]  Tetero Lesse: 2 yes
 +
 
[18:54]  Yuu Nakamichi: 2 yes
 
[18:54]  Yuu Nakamichi: 2 yes
 +
 
[18:55]  Yuu Nakamichi: now to q3
 
[18:55]  Yuu Nakamichi: now to q3
[18:55]  Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified
+
 
in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the
+
[18:55]  Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?
exploit?
+
 
 
[18:55]  Cordelia Moy: 3: thoughts?
 
[18:55]  Cordelia Moy: 3: thoughts?
 +
 
[18:55]  Nate Grigges: I guess this asks whether LL can punish residents of SL
 
[18:55]  Nate Grigges: I guess this asks whether LL can punish residents of SL
[18:56]  Chuck Commons: That seemed like a substanially harder point
+
 
to prove and I wasn't convinced that it was made.
+
[18:56]  Chuck Commons: That seemed like a substanially harder point to prove and I wasn't convinced that it was made.
[18:56]  Nate Grigges: in RL I think the answer would be yes, but in
+
 
SL, I think it's harder to argue
+
[18:56]  Nate Grigges: in RL I think the answer would be yes, but in SL, I think it's harder to argue
 +
 
 
[18:56]  Nate Grigges: I am leaning towards no
 
[18:56]  Nate Grigges: I am leaning towards no
 +
 
[18:56]  Lapin Paris is Offline
 
[18:56]  Lapin Paris is Offline
 +
 
[18:56]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no, and we'd have to impeach the tos, not our job
 
[18:56]  Daisyblue Hefferman: no, and we'd have to impeach the tos, not our job
 +
 
[18:56]  Cordelia Moy: Chuck, I agree. What does TOS say?
 
[18:56]  Cordelia Moy: Chuck, I agree. What does TOS say?
 +
 
[18:56]  Chuck Commons: Would an in-life parallel be "insider trading"
 
[18:56]  Chuck Commons: Would an in-life parallel be "insider trading"
[18:56]  Chinadoll Lulu: if LL put in TOS on that issue, and their
+
 
lawyer said it is, then they certainly have the right, right?
+
[18:56]  Chinadoll Lulu: if LL put in TOS on that issue, and their lawyer said it is, then they certainly have the right, right?
 +
 
 
[18:57]  Daisyblue Hefferman: we should have all been given a copy of tos
 
[18:57]  Daisyblue Hefferman: we should have all been given a copy of tos
[18:57]  Teresa Cinquetti: if its like drugs then they can take the
+
 
entire properties used to commit hte crime
+
[18:57]  Teresa Cinquetti: if its like drugs then they can take the entire properties used to commit hte crime
[18:57]  Nate Grigges: or at least the lawyers should have quoted the
+
 
relevant parts to us
+
[18:57]  Nate Grigges: or at least the lawyers should have quoted the relevant parts to us
 +
 
 
[18:57]  Teresa Cinquetti: lol we did we said yes I accept ::smiles :: sorry
 
[18:57]  Teresa Cinquetti: lol we did we said yes I accept ::smiles :: sorry
 +
 
[18:57]  Cordelia Moy: Daisy, I agree. I think we should have had exhibits.
 
[18:57]  Cordelia Moy: Daisy, I agree. I think we should have had exhibits.
 +
 
[18:57]  Daisyblue Hefferman: I think it's an arbitrary dictatorship
 
[18:57]  Daisyblue Hefferman: I think it's an arbitrary dictatorship
[18:57]  Alan Lederberg: its hard to see that LL could confiscate
+
 
several thousand dollars of real (US) money)
+
[18:57]  Alan Lederberg: its hard to see that LL could confiscate several thousand dollars of real (US) money)
 +
 
 
[18:57]  Lapin Paris is Online
 
[18:57]  Lapin Paris is Online
[18:57]  Yuu Nakamichi: I think the TOS is extremely worded and allows
+
 
the lab almost everything
+
[18:57]  Yuu Nakamichi: I think the TOS is extremely worded and allows the lab almost everything
 +
 
 
[18:57]  Cordelia Moy: We have to come back guys.
 
[18:57]  Cordelia Moy: We have to come back guys.
[18:57]  Tetero Lesse: I have a feeling they didn't use the TOS
+
 
because it would not have helped their case. The LL lawyers that is.
+
[18:57]  Tetero Lesse: I have a feeling they didn't use the TOS because it would not have helped their case. The LL lawyers that is.
 +
 
 
[18:57]  Chinadoll Lulu: also the copy of the TOS is in digital form
 
[18:57]  Chinadoll Lulu: also the copy of the TOS is in digital form
 +
 
[18:58]  Chinadoll Lulu: it is in your PC as you installed the game
 
[18:58]  Chinadoll Lulu: it is in your PC as you installed the game
[18:58]  Daisyblue Hefferman: sitting back on their tos, they can do
+
 
whatever they want
+
[18:58]  Daisyblue Hefferman: sitting back on their tos, they can do whatever they want
 +
 
 
[18:58]  Chinadoll Lulu: program
 
[18:58]  Chinadoll Lulu: program
 +
 
[18:58]  Cordelia Moy: Shall we say we didn't get to the third?
 
[18:58]  Cordelia Moy: Shall we say we didn't get to the third?
 +
 
[18:58]  Teresa Cinquetti: lets vote fast
 
[18:58]  Teresa Cinquetti: lets vote fast
 +
 
[18:58]  Daisyblue Hefferman: they make the rules, they enforce em
 
[18:58]  Daisyblue Hefferman: they make the rules, they enforce em
 +
 
[18:58]  Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified
 
[18:58]  Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified
 
in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the
 
in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the
 
exploit?
 
exploit?
 +
 
[18:58]  Daisyblue Hefferman: 3. no
 
[18:58]  Daisyblue Hefferman: 3. no
 +
 
[18:58]  Teresa Cinquetti: 3 yes
 
[18:58]  Teresa Cinquetti: 3 yes
 +
 
[18:58]  Chinadoll Lulu: 3. yes
 
[18:58]  Chinadoll Lulu: 3. yes
 +
 
[18:58]  Alan Lederberg: 3 no
 
[18:58]  Alan Lederberg: 3 no
 +
 
[18:58]  Chuck Commons: no
 
[18:58]  Chuck Commons: no
 +
 
[18:58]  Nate Grigges: 3 no
 
[18:58]  Nate Grigges: 3 no
 +
 
[18:58]  Tetero Lesse: 3 no
 
[18:58]  Tetero Lesse: 3 no
 +
 
[18:58]  Yuu Nakamichi: 3 no
 
[18:58]  Yuu Nakamichi: 3 no
 +
 
[18:58]  Cordelia Moy: yes
 
[18:58]  Cordelia Moy: yes
 +
 
[18:58]  Nate Grigges: cordelia?
 
[18:58]  Nate Grigges: cordelia?
 +
 
[18:59]  Cordelia Moy: So the amjority is for no (3)
 
[18:59]  Cordelia Moy: So the amjority is for no (3)
 +
 
[18:59]  Daisyblue Hefferman: hot damn. good work guys!!!!!!!
 
[18:59]  Daisyblue Hefferman: hot damn. good work guys!!!!!!!
 +
 
[18:59]  Teresa Cinquetti: heh Daisy
 
[18:59]  Teresa Cinquetti: heh Daisy
 +
 
[19:00]  Eon Berkman: order in the court
 
[19:00]  Eon Berkman: order in the court
 +
 
[19:00]  Rebecca Berkman: wow, i'm nervous!
 
[19:00]  Rebecca Berkman: wow, i'm nervous!
 +
 
[19:00]  Eon Berkman: the jury is returning
 
[19:00]  Eon Berkman: the jury is returning
 +
 
[19:00]  Eon Berkman: jury fore-avatar
 
[19:00]  Eon Berkman: jury fore-avatar
 +
 
[19:00]  Eon Berkman: has the jury reached its verdicts
 
[19:00]  Eon Berkman: has the jury reached its verdicts
 +
 
[19:00]  Cordelia Moy: Yes your honor
 
[19:00]  Cordelia Moy: Yes your honor
 +
 
[19:00]  Teresa Cinquetti sits up on the edge of her seat
 
[19:00]  Teresa Cinquetti sits up on the edge of her seat
 +
 
[19:01]  Cordelia Moy: Yes we have, your honor.
 
[19:01]  Cordelia Moy: Yes we have, your honor.
 +
 
[19:01]  Chinadoll Lulu smacks T's behind
 
[19:01]  Chinadoll Lulu smacks T's behind
 +
 
[19:01]  Eon Berkman: would you please deliver the verdict
 
[19:01]  Eon Berkman: would you please deliver the verdict
 +
 
[19:01]  Lapin Paris is Offline
 
[19:01]  Lapin Paris is Offline
 +
 
[19:01]  Teresa Cinquetti winces
 
[19:01]  Teresa Cinquetti winces
 +
 
[19:01]  MyNameIs Burton: the suspense
 
[19:01]  MyNameIs Burton: the suspense
[19:01]  Cordelia Moy: Yes,. On the first question, did Bragg own property, wer
+
 
concludede yes.
+
[19:01]  Cordelia Moy: Yes,. On the first question, did Bragg own property, wer concludede yes.
 +
 
 
[19:02]  Cordelia Moy: Majority, not unanimity.
 
[19:02]  Cordelia Moy: Majority, not unanimity.
 +
 
[19:02]  Rebecca Berkman bites fingernails
 
[19:02]  Rebecca Berkman bites fingernails
 +
 
[19:02]  Eon Berkman: thank you
 
[19:02]  Eon Berkman: thank you
 +
 
[19:02]  Eon Berkman: proceed
 
[19:02]  Eon Berkman: proceed
 +
 
[19:02]  Cordelia Moy: On the 2nd question, which w as . . . (sorry )
 
[19:02]  Cordelia Moy: On the 2nd question, which w as . . . (sorry )
[19:03]  Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the
+
 
affirmative then consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman:
+
[19:03]  Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?
Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his
+
 
property?
 
 
[19:03]  Eon Berkman: thank you. proceed.
 
[19:03]  Eon Berkman: thank you. proceed.
[19:04]  Cordelia Moy: And as to the third, was Linden justiied in takin gthe
+
 
property beofre
+
[19:04]  Cordelia Moy: And as to the third, was Linden justiied in takin gthe property beofre
 +
 
 
[19:04]  Cordelia Moy: the exploit (acuqired), we voted no.
 
[19:04]  Cordelia Moy: the exploit (acuqired), we voted no.
 +
 
[19:04]  Cordelia Moy: we voted yes: that the exploit was impropoer
 
[19:04]  Cordelia Moy: we voted yes: that the exploit was impropoer
 +
 
[19:05]  Cordelia Moy: That was the toughest.
 
[19:05]  Cordelia Moy: That was the toughest.
 +
 
[19:05]  Chinadoll Lulu: (ooc 6 to 3 vote)
 
[19:05]  Chinadoll Lulu: (ooc 6 to 3 vote)
 +
 
[19:05]  Cordelia Moy: That's it.
 
[19:05]  Cordelia Moy: That's it.
[19:05]  Eon Berkman: avatars of the jury, has your fore-avatar
+
 
accurately stated your verdict
+
[19:05]  Eon Berkman: avatars of the jury, has your fore-avatar accurately stated your verdict
 +
 
 
[19:06]  Chinadoll Lulu: aye
 
[19:06]  Chinadoll Lulu: aye
 +
 
[19:06]  Tetero Lesse: Yes
 
[19:06]  Tetero Lesse: Yes
 +
 
[19:06]  Alan Lederberg: yes
 
[19:06]  Alan Lederberg: yes
 +
 
[19:06]  Teresa Cinquetti smiles and nods yes
 
[19:06]  Teresa Cinquetti smiles and nods yes
 +
 
[19:06]  Yuu Nakamichi: yes, your honor
 
[19:06]  Yuu Nakamichi: yes, your honor
 +
 
[19:06]  Daisyblue Hefferman: Yes, Your Honor. Judge Eon, great wig bty.
 
[19:06]  Daisyblue Hefferman: Yes, Your Honor. Judge Eon, great wig bty.
 +
 
[19:06]  Chuck Commons: Yes, your honor.
 
[19:06]  Chuck Commons: Yes, your honor.
 +
 
[19:06]  Rebecca Berkman: Yvette Kumsung = wig maker
 
[19:06]  Rebecca Berkman: Yvette Kumsung = wig maker
 +
 
[19:06]  Eon Berkman: thank you for your service.
 
[19:06]  Eon Berkman: thank you for your service.

Latest revision as of 15:56, 22 January 2007

[18:23] Rebecca Berkman: avatars of the jury, please retire to Austin Hall to deliberate. Rejoin us when you have reached a verdict.

[18:23] Daisyblue Hefferman: tp please to deliberation site?

[18:23] Evie Mikazuki is Online

[18:23] Cordelia Moy: THanks.

[18:25] Cordelia Moy: Hi, everyone.

[18:25] Cordelia Moy: Shall we sit?

[18:25] Nate Grigges: still waiting on DaisyBlue and Teresa

[18:25] Nate Grigges: hello

[18:25] Nate Grigges: err, Teresa

[18:25] There is no suitable surface to sit on, try another spot.

[18:25] Daisyblue Hefferman: sorry got booted.

[18:25] Nate Grigges: hello DaisyBlue

[18:25] The Sojourner is Online

[18:26] Daisyblue Hefferman: ll i swatching lol

[18:26] Chinadoll Lulu: she is relogging

[18:26] Cordelia Moy: Not a problem.

[18:26] Cordelia Moy: Is everyone clear about what we need to decide?

[18:26] Chinadoll Lulu: here T

[18:26] Teresa Cinquetti: yes thank you

[18:26] Daisyblue Hefferman: do we need a foreperson?

[18:26] Nate Grigges nods to Chinadoll.

[18:26] Chinadoll Lulu: we do

[18:26] Nate Grigges: Cordelia is it.

[18:26] No room to sit here, try another spot.

[18:26] Daisyblue Hefferman: ok

[18:26] Chinadoll Lulu: go ahead cor

[18:27] Chinadoll Lulu: and she link dead

[18:27] Chinadoll Lulu: oops she is here


[18:27] Cordelia Moy: Okay Well, first of all, does anyone want to offer any thoughts before we take up the question?

[18:27] Nate Grigges: did Rebecca leave?

[18:28] Cordelia Moy: Soory Yuu.

[18:28] Yuu Nakamichi: no problem..

[18:28] Daisyblue Hefferman: no, let's vote on 1 first

[18:28] Chinadoll Lulu: mmhmmm

[18:28] Teresa Cinquetti: yes becca left

[18:28] Nate Grigges: is there no discussion on #1?

[18:28] Cordelia Moy: Tetero, Chuch, NAte . . . any thoughts?

[18:28] Chinadoll Lulu: 1. those who agree, say aye...

[18:28] Daisyblue Hefferman: aye

[18:28] Nate Grigges: I think the question of ownership bears discussion

[18:28] Chuck Commons: aye

[18:28] Chinadoll Lulu: aye

[18:28] Alan Lederberg: would someone repeat the question?

[18:29] Nate Grigges: first: Prior to the exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased?

[18:29] Cordelia Moy: Yes. Go ahead Nate. Please rep

[18:29] Teresa Cinquetti: yes please I think I missed the questions

[18:29] Nate Grigges: that was the first question

[18:29] Chinadoll Lulu: [18:21] Eon Berkman: first: Prior to the exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased? [18:21] Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property? [18:22] Chip Midnight is Online [18:22] Eon Berkman: then consider the third: [18:22] Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?\

[18:23] Stella Naumova is Online

[18:29] Cordelia Moy: Thanks. Nate, would you like to start discussion?

[18:30] Nate Grigges: I am somewhat on the fence about number one. Yes, I think members have the rights to their Intellectual Property here, and Yes, Rosedale seems to have stated that ownership here means ownership completely. But is it reasonable to think there might be some limitations on that ownership?

[18:31] Nate Grigges: I mean, if SL were to be bankrupt and destroyed tomorrow

[18:31] Lapin Paris is Offline

[18:31] Nate Grigges: could I send them a letter and ask for my "house" on a disk?

[18:31] Cordelia Moy: I kind of wondered about that as well, Nate. But from a different angle.

[18:31] Daisyblue Hefferman: but we should get our money back

[18:31] Yuu Nakamichi: I think that the notion of property in sl is a fallacy - it is a concept that facilitates exchange in-world but it has no bearing on the fact that the lab owns the asset servers

[18:32] Chinadoll Lulu: pardon me, Nate, the question was if he is the owner of the property that he had purhcased, not about limitations.... so would it be fair to say that he is the owner of the property that he had purhcased with limitations then?

[18:32] Nate Grigges: I think that would be reasonable Chinadoll

[18:32] Tetero Lesse: My feeling is that in RL there are parallel limitations on ownership. After you die, you can't own something, for ex.

[18:32] Cordelia Moy: If our friend Bragg is kicked out of 2nd life, what would he do with the propoerty. It's meaningless outside of SL, right?

[18:32] Yuu Nakamichi: / so I would say that he was the owner only for the in-wrold purposes

[18:33] Cordelia Moy: Yuu I think I would afree.

[18:33] Alan Lederberg: did he purchase any of his property with US$?

[18:33] Cordelia Moy: agree

[18:33] Daisyblue Hefferman: I own property here. I consider myself the owner of that property until such time as i abandon or sell it

[18:33] Nate Grigges: isn't the question whether Mark Bragg owned the property though?

[18:34] Chinadoll Lulu: purchase any with ot without US$ is not really the issue here... sorry to say

[18:34] Chinadoll Lulu: it can be purchase with japanese yen

[18:34] Chuck Commons: I would tend to agree with Yuu's point, though I would imagine that there are parallels to ownership in RL for facillitating exchange.

[18:34] Chinadoll Lulu: or Hong kong dollar

[18:34] Chinadoll Lulu: or a candy

[18:34] Daisyblue Hefferman: no, all leagal tender

[18:35] Tetero Lesse: It was Linden Labs that promoted the idea of property, rather than fee for use.

[18:35] Alan Lederberg: well, its seems it gets to the issue of owning it in SL or RL

[18:35] Cordelia Moy: Yes, Tetero? Meaning what?

[18:35] Chinadoll Lulu: ok guys, ooc, we have a tiem limiatation here

[18:35] Chinadoll Lulu: can we stick to question 1

[18:35] Chuck Commons: I see the limitations, but would still think of this as a "yea". Both sides agree to it as does vast majority of SL users.

[18:35] Chinadoll Lulu: please?

[18:36] Cordelia Moy: Chinadoll, thanks. I'd like to hear the rest of the discussion.

[18:36] Cordelia Moy: It will only take a minute or two.

[18:36] Nate Grigges: alright, I think I've made my decision, everyone else prepared to vote?

[18:36] Daisyblue Hefferman: yes

[18:36] Tetero Lesse: Well, on that basis I'd say Bragg was justified in thinking he owned property in SL and I would agree with that construct based on LL's pronouncemtns

[18:36] Cordelia Moy: Everyone ready to vote please say "yes"

[18:36] Daisyblue Hefferman: yes

[18:36] Nate Grigges: yes

[18:36] Tetero Lesse: yes

[18:36] Cordelia Moy: yes

[18:36] Yuu Nakamichi: yes

[18:37] Alan Lederberg: yes

[18:37] Lapin Paris is Online

[18:37] Cordelia Moy: chuch?

[18:37] Teresa Cinquetti: yes

[18:37] Chuck Commons: yeah

[18:37] Cordelia Moy: Okay. Did Bragg own property prior to the exploit?

[18:37] Daisyblue Hefferman: yes

[18:37] Teresa Cinquetti: yes

[18:37] Alan Lederberg: yes

[18:37] Chuck Commons: yes

[18:37] Tetero Lesse: yes

[18:37] Yuu Nakamichi: no

[18:37] Nate Grigges: yes

[18:38] Cordelia Moy: yes

[18:38] Chinadoll Lulu: yes

[18:38] Cordelia Moy: Okay so majority vote on 1 is yes, in favor of the plaintiff.

[18:38] Cordelia Moy: Question 2 --Chinadoll, can you call up the text again?

[18:38] JJ Drinkwater is Offline

[18:39] Nate Grigges: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?

[18:39] Nate Grigges: (that was #2)

[18:39] Cordelia Moy: Thanks. Thoughts?

[18:39] Daisyblue Hefferman: i don't think LL proved it was improper

[18:39] Nate Grigges: I think it was clearly improper, although I think LL did a horrific job of protecting their system

[18:39] Daisyblue Hefferman: they said he knew it was wrong, but didn't prove it

[18:40] Chinadoll Lulu: [18:21] Eon Berkman: first: Prior to the exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased? [18:21] Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property? [18:22] Chip Midnight is Online [18:22] Eon Berkman: then consider the third: [18:22] Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?

[18:40] Teresa Cinquetti: I agree with Nate

[18:40] Cordelia Moy: I think it was improper, too.

[18:40] Cordelia Moy: Thanks, China.

[18:40] Yuu Nakamichi: / I agree. Bragg behaved like a black hat (hacker)

[18:40] Yuu Nakamichi: / by finding and exploiting a flaw

[18:40] Nate Grigges: You are right that they didn't really do much to prove it Daisy

[18:40] Daisyblue Hefferman: I am an expert google or anything searcher. If i came upon such an auction, hell, yes, I'd bid

[18:40] Chinadoll Lulu: does not matter how bad the security is/was, stealing is stealing

[18:40] Yuu Nakamichi: / instead of a white hat

[18:40] Tetero Lesse: I think 2 is really about whether LL was justified in taking property illegally gained.

[18:40] Nate Grigges: I am surprised you say that, as a property owner, Daisy

[18:41] Tetero Lesse: Question 3 is about taking property legally purchased.

[18:41] Nate Grigges: that's #3 Tetero

[18:41] Daisyblue Hefferman: nowhere did the page say it was wrong, and it accepted the bid

[18:41] Chuck Commons: I'm on the line. It didn't seem clear that exploiting google was really stealing.

[18:41] Cordelia Moy: So is the problem that despite our feelings, we don't have evidence he was deliberate in the exploitatio?

[18:41] Daisyblue Hefferman: no, chuck, it didn't

[18:41] Lorelei Junot is Online

[18:41] Chinadoll Lulu: knowing that you can beat the system with an unfair advantage is an exploit

[18:41] Cordelia Moy: I wish that had been more fully discussed.

[18:41] Chinadoll Lulu: it does not matter if you are the first one who discover it

[18:41] Daisyblue Hefferman: did he know it was?

[18:42] Cordelia Moy: I agree, China. But did he know he was?

[18:42] Nate Grigges: I don't think the google method was hacking, but I think Bragg realized he would be bidding with no competition

[18:42] Daisyblue Hefferman: no one proved he did

[18:42] Yuu Nakamichi: / I think it is hard to make a distinction between googlin gna dhacking when it comes to url spoffing

[18:42] Yuu Nakamichi: *spoofing*

[18:42] Chuck Commons: If I figured this out, I would have assumed it was a decently known secret.

[18:42] Teresa Cinquetti: I personally think that it was wrong and he may or may not have known it was wrong. LL was not diligent in protecting the system

[18:42] Daisyblue Hefferman: googling is not hacking

[18:42] Chinadoll Lulu: that is monopoly

[18:42] Chinadoll Lulu: he clearly know that he can gain the land with a low price when everyone else could not beat against him

[18:42] Chinadoll Lulu: creating a bid that only you can bid on it

[18:42] Chinadoll Lulu: that is purely greedy

[18:42] Chinadoll Lulu: and selfish

[18:42] Daisyblue Hefferman: we don't know that

[18:42] Cordelia Moy: Teresa, I suspect he knew, but I didn't see the evidence he knew. That's the rubl

[18:43] Daisyblue Hefferman: it was not proven, his intent or knowledge

[18:43] Cordelia Moy: rub!

[18:43] Nate Grigges: if it was a known issue, nobody would participate in the regular auctions

[18:43] Teresa Cinquetti: I agree Cordelia

[18:43] Yuu Nakamichi: I agree, Cordelia, unforotunaely it si not clear

[18:43] Cordelia Moy: Teteroo, Alan, Chuck?

[18:43] Chuck Commons: I'm not saying what he did was good. Just that it wasn't clearly a illegal exploit

[18:43] Cordelia Moy: This is where the law binds us, I think.

[18:43] Daisyblue Hefferman: so we can give our opinion based on the evidence given only

[18:44] Nate Grigges: I think you can give your opinion based on any knowledge you have

[18:44] Daisyblue Hefferman: well i don't have knowledge he id it maliciously

[18:44] Tetero Lesse: In this trial, I think Bragg said or intimated that he knew it was wrong - regardless of what the real Bragg thought.

[18:44] Cordelia Moy: Can you remind us where?

[18:44] Nate Grigges: the trial is intended to bring out any relevant info, but in this case it seems to have left some out

[18:45] Tetero Lesse: Can we get the court steno to read back the transcript?

[18:45] Cordelia Moy: It would be great to have evidence for what we feel.

[18:45] Daisyblue Hefferman: i kept waiting for the lawyers to ask the right questions

[18:45] Yuu Nakamichi: I am lookigng at the trasncript now

[18:45] Teresa Cinquetti: my opinion is that LL was not justified in taking anything. They had the right to suspend his account but not take his holdings since it was not against any Tos that was proven out in the court

[18:45] Cordelia Moy: Thanks, Yuu (and everyone). I'll look too

[18:45] Nate Grigges: me too Daisy

[18:45] Chuck Commons: Of course if the property is gained via an undocumented activity, I suppose it can fairly be taken away in a similar way.

[18:45] Daisyblue Hefferman: i agreee Theresa

[18:45] Lorelei Junot is Offline

[18:46] Teresa Cinquetti: morally wrong yes technically wrong no

[18:46] Chinadoll Lulu: true, i am sure that he violate the TOS, but it was NOT proven out in the court, the defendent did a horrible job

[18:46] Nate Grigges: do you think he should have kept the land he got through the exploit, Teresa?

[18:46] Tetero Lesse: Theresa, is there a difference between suspending his account and taking his holdings?

[18:46] Teresa Cinquetti: fromt he lessons that Eon taought the purpose of the court is to provide not what is fair but what the society can tolerate and believe is just

[18:46] Cordelia Moy: I thought the defendant was excellent. Oh well.

[18:47] Chinadoll Lulu: holding = property that can be convert to RL cash

[18:47] Chinadoll Lulu: suspending his account = no access to the system

[18:47] Daisyblue Hefferman: he should at least been allowed to seel his prior holdings

[18:47] Daisyblue Hefferman: sell

[18:47] Teresa Cinquetti: yes

[18:47] Yuu Nakamichi: I think the plaintiff did not admit to exploitative behaviour but it is quite strongly implied

[18:47] Tetero Lesse: Can it be converted to cash even if someone's acct is suspended? Can you participate in an auction w/ a suspended acct?

[18:47] Yuu Nakamichi: a day passed and nothing happende, then on may 2 i received a message...

[18:47] Daisyblue Hefferman: and no one asked him!!!!

[18:48] Chinadoll Lulu: selling is not via an auction, but asking LL to convert the Linden into real dollar

[18:48] Teresa Cinquetti: even is it was exploitive, which it was, it is still not succinctly a hack per se

[18:48] Yuu Nakamichi: from the lindens end quote

[18:48] Cordelia Moy: So the "nothing happened" suggests that he knew he was circumventing, Yuu?

[18:48] Daisyblue Hefferman: not a hack

[18:48] Yuu Nakamichi: I think it could

[18:48] Daisyblue Hefferman: linden's error making the auction available

[18:48] Chinadoll Lulu: exploit or hack, it is an unfair advantage

[18:49] Chinadoll Lulu: does not matter how he did it

[18:49] Teresa Cinquetti: Walmart is an unfair advantage

[18:49] Daisyblue Hefferman: shouldn't be held responsible for Linden's miistake

[18:49] Chinadoll Lulu: but he did something that will harm the rest of the resident of SL

[18:49] Cordelia Moy: Okay. guys, I'm getting IMs from Becca that we finish by 7 pm.

[18:49] Teresa Cinquetti: we can't take walMart to court

[18:49] Chuck Commons: I'm ready to vote on #2 but imagine we'll have a big discusion on #3

[18:49] Chinadoll Lulu: that is different

[18:49] Chinadoll Lulu: walmart still has to obey the monopoly law

[18:49] Chinadoll Lulu: in this case

[18:49] Daisyblue Hefferman: no, it hurt ll's pocketbook aout a few measly dollars

[18:49] Tetero Lesse also ready to vote

[18:49] Cordelia Moy: Well, based on Yuu's transcript search, I could vote.

[18:50] Evie Mikazuki is Offline

[18:50] Daisyblue Hefferman: 1 L$- .oo3688 USD

[18:50] Chinadoll Lulu: that guy set up a bid prior to the legal time and be the only bidder

[18:50] Cordelia Moy: Okay, then. All those who believe Bragg did exploit, say yes.

[18:50] Chinadoll Lulu: i do no tknow.

[18:50] Nate Grigges: I am ready to vote

[18:50] Chuck Commons: Yo

[18:50] Chuck Commons: Yes

[18:50] Yuu Nakamichi: I am ready as well.

[18:50] Tetero Lesse: yes

[18:50] Alan Lederberg: yes

[18:50] Nate Grigges: wow Daisy, lindens are cheaper than I thought

[18:50] Chinadoll Lulu: yes

[18:50] Teresa Cinquetti: are we coting now?

[18:50] Nate Grigges: yes Cordelia

[18:50] Daisyblue Hefferman: no

[18:50] Cordelia Moy: Yes.

[18:51] Daisyblue Hefferman: yup

[18:51] Chinadoll Lulu: 1000 linden is $4 USD

[18:51] Cordelia Moy: Yes, Teresa.

[18:51] Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?

[18:51] Yuu Nakamichi: yes

[18:51] Teresa Cinquetti: are we ready

[18:51] Daisyblue Hefferman: no

[18:51] Cordelia Moy: Is that 3 Teresa?

[18:51] Daisyblue Hefferman: ready

[18:51] Chinadoll Lulu: that is 2

[18:51] Cordelia Moy: sorry.

[18:51] Chinadoll Lulu: [18:21] Eon Berkman: first: Prior to the exploit, was he the owner of the property that he had purchased? [18:21] Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property? [18:22] Chip Midnight is Online [18:22] Eon Berkman: then consider the third: [18:22] Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?

[18:51] Nate Grigges: wait, I thought that last was are we ready to vote, no what is our vote

[18:52] Chinadoll Lulu: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?

[18:52] Teresa Cinquetti: thats why I asked Nate

[18:52] Cordelia Moy: Hold on@

[18:52] Cordelia Moy: Okay. On the count of three, vote. One, two,

[18:52] Nate Grigges nods to Teresa.

[18:52] Cordelia Moy: three now

[18:52] Daisyblue Hefferman: did we vote on #2?

[18:52] Tetero Lesse: on q2 or q3?

[18:52] Chinadoll Lulu: aye

[18:52] Yuu Nakamichi: yes

[18:52] Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?

[18:52] Nate Grigges: #2 I vote yes, it was improper

[18:52] Teresa Cinquetti: no

[18:52] Daisyblue Hefferman: no

[18:52] Yuu Nakamichi: #2 yes it was improper

[18:53] Chinadoll Lulu: yes it was improper

[18:53] Cordelia Moy: QUestion 2. I vote yes

[18:53] Tetero Lesse: on 2 I vote yes

[18:53] Chuck Commons: my Vote: yes, it was improper, Linden justified in taking this property

[18:53] Cordelia Moy: Okay. So majority on question 2.

[18:53] Usu Ventura is Online

[18:53] Nate Grigges: that's 2 separate questions Chuck

[18:53] Cordelia Moy: yes on 1, yes on 2.

[18:53] Cordelia Moy: NOw 3.

[18:53] Daisyblue Hefferman: 2 is really 2 questions

[18:53] Chinadoll Lulu: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?

[18:53] Nate Grigges: I think we only got 8 total votes on #2

[18:53] Alan Lederberg: i agree daiselyblue

[18:53] Cordelia Moy: I know, Daisy. We're being rushed by Becca.

[18:53] Chinadoll Lulu: nae: it is majority

[18:54] Chinadoll Lulu: nate: so it does not matter

[18:54] Nate Grigges: Alan, what was your vote on #2

[18:54] Teresa Cinquetti: lets vote again with just a yes or no please on number 2 with no other caht

[18:54] Cordelia Moy: Thoughts on 3?

[18:54] Chuck Commons: 2: Yes

[18:54] Alan Lederberg: it was a vaguely worded questions I think

[18:54] Chinadoll Lulu: Q2 YEs

[18:54] Teresa Cinquetti: 2 No

[18:54] Daisyblue Hefferman: 2. no

[18:54] Alan Lederberg: 2 yes

[18:54] Cordelia Moy: OKAY EVERYONE.

[18:54] Cordelia Moy: 2 YES

[18:54] Tetero Lesse: 2 yes

[18:54] Yuu Nakamichi: 2 yes

[18:55] Yuu Nakamichi: now to q3

[18:55] Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?

[18:55] Cordelia Moy: 3: thoughts?

[18:55] Nate Grigges: I guess this asks whether LL can punish residents of SL

[18:56] Chuck Commons: That seemed like a substanially harder point to prove and I wasn't convinced that it was made.

[18:56] Nate Grigges: in RL I think the answer would be yes, but in SL, I think it's harder to argue

[18:56] Nate Grigges: I am leaning towards no

[18:56] Lapin Paris is Offline

[18:56] Daisyblue Hefferman: no, and we'd have to impeach the tos, not our job

[18:56] Cordelia Moy: Chuck, I agree. What does TOS say?

[18:56] Chuck Commons: Would an in-life parallel be "insider trading"

[18:56] Chinadoll Lulu: if LL put in TOS on that issue, and their lawyer said it is, then they certainly have the right, right?

[18:57] Daisyblue Hefferman: we should have all been given a copy of tos

[18:57] Teresa Cinquetti: if its like drugs then they can take the entire properties used to commit hte crime

[18:57] Nate Grigges: or at least the lawyers should have quoted the relevant parts to us

[18:57] Teresa Cinquetti: lol we did we said yes I accept ::smiles :: sorry

[18:57] Cordelia Moy: Daisy, I agree. I think we should have had exhibits.

[18:57] Daisyblue Hefferman: I think it's an arbitrary dictatorship

[18:57] Alan Lederberg: its hard to see that LL could confiscate several thousand dollars of real (US) money)

[18:57] Lapin Paris is Online

[18:57] Yuu Nakamichi: I think the TOS is extremely worded and allows the lab almost everything

[18:57] Cordelia Moy: We have to come back guys.

[18:57] Tetero Lesse: I have a feeling they didn't use the TOS because it would not have helped their case. The LL lawyers that is.

[18:57] Chinadoll Lulu: also the copy of the TOS is in digital form

[18:58] Chinadoll Lulu: it is in your PC as you installed the game

[18:58] Daisyblue Hefferman: sitting back on their tos, they can do whatever they want

[18:58] Chinadoll Lulu: program

[18:58] Cordelia Moy: Shall we say we didn't get to the third?

[18:58] Teresa Cinquetti: lets vote fast

[18:58] Daisyblue Hefferman: they make the rules, they enforce em

[18:58] Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: If Linden Labs was justified in 2 was it justified for taking the property acquired prior to the exploit?

[18:58] Daisyblue Hefferman: 3. no

[18:58] Teresa Cinquetti: 3 yes

[18:58] Chinadoll Lulu: 3. yes

[18:58] Alan Lederberg: 3 no

[18:58] Chuck Commons: no

[18:58] Nate Grigges: 3 no

[18:58] Tetero Lesse: 3 no

[18:58] Yuu Nakamichi: 3 no

[18:58] Cordelia Moy: yes

[18:58] Nate Grigges: cordelia?

[18:59] Cordelia Moy: So the amjority is for no (3)

[18:59] Daisyblue Hefferman: hot damn. good work guys!!!!!!!

[18:59] Teresa Cinquetti: heh Daisy

[19:00] Eon Berkman: order in the court

[19:00] Rebecca Berkman: wow, i'm nervous!

[19:00] Eon Berkman: the jury is returning

[19:00] Eon Berkman: jury fore-avatar

[19:00] Eon Berkman: has the jury reached its verdicts

[19:00] Cordelia Moy: Yes your honor

[19:00] Teresa Cinquetti sits up on the edge of her seat

[19:01] Cordelia Moy: Yes we have, your honor.

[19:01] Chinadoll Lulu smacks T's behind

[19:01] Eon Berkman: would you please deliver the verdict

[19:01] Lapin Paris is Offline

[19:01] Teresa Cinquetti winces

[19:01] MyNameIs Burton: the suspense

[19:01] Cordelia Moy: Yes,. On the first question, did Bragg own property, wer concludede yes.

[19:02] Cordelia Moy: Majority, not unanimity.

[19:02] Rebecca Berkman bites fingernails

[19:02] Eon Berkman: thank you

[19:02] Eon Berkman: proceed

[19:02] Cordelia Moy: On the 2nd question, which w as . . . (sorry )

[19:03] Teresa Cinquetti: Eon Berkman: if a majority answers in the affirmative then consider the second question: [18:21] Eon Berkman: Was his exploit improper, such that Linden was justified in taking his property?

[19:03] Eon Berkman: thank you. proceed.

[19:04] Cordelia Moy: And as to the third, was Linden justiied in takin gthe property beofre

[19:04] Cordelia Moy: the exploit (acuqired), we voted no.

[19:04] Cordelia Moy: we voted yes: that the exploit was impropoer

[19:05] Cordelia Moy: That was the toughest.

[19:05] Chinadoll Lulu: (ooc 6 to 3 vote)

[19:05] Cordelia Moy: That's it.

[19:05] Eon Berkman: avatars of the jury, has your fore-avatar accurately stated your verdict

[19:06] Chinadoll Lulu: aye

[19:06] Tetero Lesse: Yes

[19:06] Alan Lederberg: yes

[19:06] Teresa Cinquetti smiles and nods yes

[19:06] Yuu Nakamichi: yes, your honor

[19:06] Daisyblue Hefferman: Yes, Your Honor. Judge Eon, great wig bty.

[19:06] Chuck Commons: Yes, your honor.

[19:06] Rebecca Berkman: Yvette Kumsung = wig maker

[19:06] Eon Berkman: thank you for your service.