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[17:00]  GeneKoo Li is Online
[17:00]  Vivox-Campus Microphone: BorisFederal will join the conversation in a moment
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[17:00]  GeneKoo Li: thanks, good chatting as well!
[17:00]  GeneKoo Li: was rebecca just here?
[17:00]  Marty Mehring is Online
[17:00]  Teresa Cinquetti  =^.^=
[17:00]  Teresa Cinquetti: Hi Hi
[17:00]  Aphilo Aarde: I just came in world, and haven't seen her.
[17:00]  You: hello!
[17:01]  GeneKoo Li: just saw her disappear
[17:01]  GeneKoo Li: oh there you are
[17:01]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Rebecca!
[17:01]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Teresa
[17:01]  Teresa Cinquetti  =^.^=
[17:01]  Teresa Cinquetti: Hi Hi
[17:01]  You: i just got in from a berkman center event at my parents' house.
[17:01]  GeneKoo Li: hi teresa
[17:01]  Aphilo Aarde: Was someone presenting?
[17:01]  Aphilo Aarde: What was the topic?
[17:01]  Mobile Widget is Online
[17:02]  You: there is no presentation set up, as far as i know.
[17:02]  Aphilo Aarde: at your parent's house?
[17:02]  You: although i was hoping we could try out the empathic argument idea for ourselves.
[17:02]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Marty
[17:02]  You: oh, i see what you mean.
[17:02]  Aphilo Aarde: You are so tall.
[17:03]  You: yes, Oren Bracha and Terry Fisher are leading a conversation about the Rise of Amateurism.
[17:03]  Aphilo Aarde: You mean a 2 1/2 minute empathic argument?
[17:03]  You: I'm not quite sure what they mean by that, but I had to cut out for this.
[17:03]  You: yeah, that's what I had in mind.
[17:03]  Aphilo Aarde: Sounds like a topic that has a lot in common with Benkler's thesis.
[17:03]  You: I'm not sure if today's lecture has been posted online yet, but it was very interesting to see the law students attempt to do that for their projects.
[17:04]  You: it seems that empathic argument is a pretty hard concept to grasp.
[17:04]  You: I think that the process of trying to do it does help clear it up a lot.
[17:04]  Aphilo Aarde: Now we have a lot of opportunity to post empathic arguments online for the world.
[17:04]  You: (i wouldn't limit us to 2.5 mins here b/c of th time it takes to type)
[17:04]  You: indeed we do.
[17:05]  Mobile Widget is Offline
[17:05]  Aphilo Aarde: The word argument seems like it might contradict empathy, as it seems confrontational.
[17:05]  You: and i would definitely encourage you to do an empathic argument podcast and post it on our blog.
[17:05]  Aphilo Aarde: The lecture is online.
[17:05]  You: I think that is an essential part of the idea, but one that takes a bit of sorting out.
[17:05]  You: I didn't really understand myself what my father meant until a few days ago.
[17:05]  You: I think when he read the first attempts by the law students it helped clear up his idea of what he meant too.
[17:06]  Mobile Widget is Online
[17:06]  Aphilo Aarde: If argument in a broad philosophical sense includes a concept of proposition, then I think it's easier to grasp.
[17:06]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Tetero.
[17:06]  You: well, let me see if i can explain what he tried to explain to the law students.
[17:06]  Aphilo Aarde: But in a legal sense, argument seems to have an adversarial quality.
[17:07]  You: when he first presented the idea of empathic argument he said that in order to persuade someone you would have to
[17:07]  Mobile Widget is Offline
[17:07]  You: first begin by convincing them that you understand their point of view.
[17:07]  Mobile Widget is Online
[17:07]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes, please.
[17:07]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes.
[17:07]  You: because if they don't believe that you understand their point of view, they will not be open to listening to you.
[17:07]  You: you will not have established credibility with them.
[17:08]  You: of course, in order to demonstrate that you understand their point of view, you have to actually understand their point of view.
[17:08]  Aphilo Aarde: And the persuasion part, - introducing one's own point of view, so others parties come to share it?
[17:08]  You: so we gave the assignment to the law students to state the case for the opposition to their own positions.
[17:08]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes.
[17:09]  You: The law students did this, but in many cases they actually took the role of the other side and just acted as if they were the lawyer for the other side.
[17:09]  You: it turns out that that was not really what my father wanted to ask them to do.
[17:09]  Aphilo Aarde: I see.
[17:09]  Aphilo Aarde: Ok
[17:09]  You: what he really meant for them to do was to state the problem--the facts of the case and the points of dispute--in such a way that the opposition would listen to it
[17:09]  You: and say that it was a fair statement of the issues.
[17:10]  You: and they would also acknowledge that you understand the issue.
[17:10]  You: but that in order to do that, you don't have to give up your own position.
[17:10]  You: you are still arguing your own position, but you are starting from a point that acknowledges the strongest arguments for the other side.
[17:11]  Aphilo Aarde: Isn't empathic argument a kind of synthesis of two sides, where one comes to a reasoned, better position, but not necessarily in a legal sense, but where empathy is essential.
[17:11]  You: in lecture, and recently in SL, my father gave a very good example of this.
[17:11]  You: his example was from the Eminem movie 8 Mile.
[17:11]  You: Did people see this movie?
[17:11]  You: If not, you can see the relevant scene in our lecture video.
[17:11]  Teresa Cinquetti: no I didnt
[17:11]  You: But the basics of it is that Eminem is in a rap battle with a guy who is the reigning champion in the rap battle.
[17:12]  Hart Zhao is Online
[17:12]  You: He gets to go first in the battle.
[17:12]  Aphilo Aarde: Giving up one's own point of view involves a an exclusive understanding of another's point of view.
[17:12]  Aphilo Aarde: I saw the eminem movie in the lecture.
[17:12]  Teresa Cinquetti smiles at Logan and waves
[17:12]  You: So he what he does is he starts off by acknowledging all of the weaknesses that he has and that he thinks that his opponent will use against thim.
[17:12]  Logan Linden: hi teresa
[17:12]  You: Hello Logan, welcome.
[17:12]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Logan and Hart
[17:12]  You: So he says, "yes i live in a trailer park"
[17:13]  You: "yes i am white"
[17:13]  Hart Zhao: Good evening..
[17:13]  You: "yes this guy slept with my girlfriend"
[17:13]  You: he acknowledges all his own weaknesses.
[17:13]  You: and then he goes on to take apart the other guy.
[17:13]  Aphilo Aarde: There are risks involved in doing so.
[17:14]  You: the convincing part of the argument is that he acknowledges his weaknesses and then he stands tall and continues.
[17:14]  Aphilo Aarde: acknowledging one's weaknesses.
[17:14]  You: I agree, there are risks involved.
[17:14]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes.
[17:14]  You: Butthe basic idea is that in order to convince someone, you have to start from where they are--from their point of view--and then try to move them from that position.
[17:14]  Mobile Widget is Offline
[17:15]  You: That's what we're asking all of our students--law, extension, and at-large-to do this week in a podcast.
[17:15]  Aphilo Aarde: One has to trust a kind of process, and shared set of - ethics, perhaps. Not also easy in a charged situation.
[17:15]  You: Basically pick an issue--for extension students it should be your project topic--and try to make an empathic argument that is intended to persuade your opposition.
[17:15]  Aphilo Aarde: Can you be more explicit please.
[17:16]  Aphilo Aarde: OK
[17:16]  Teresa Cinquetti: That could be a good tactic to identify your own weaknesses before the opposition has a chance to that way you could expose what you expect them to counter with and thereby build a case that states you are credible
[17:16]  You: More explicit about which aspect. (I'd be happy to elaborate on any part)
[17:16]  You: yes, exactly Teresa.
[17:16]  You: That is it exactly.
[17:16]  Teresa Cinquetti smiles
[17:17]  Aphilo Aarde: I think the extension students have a specific project on which to base an argument.
[17:17]  You: So the first question to ask yourself is "What is the position I am arguing for?" that is, what do I believe and want to convince people of.
[17:17]  You: The next question to ask yourself is "Who disagrees with me and why?"
[17:17]  You: And then once you know why there is opposition, you try to acknowledge the position of your opponent while still maintaining your own identity, and then move them to your position.
[17:18]  Aphilo Aarde: I th ink some of us might need a context in which to shape an argument.
[17:18]  Aphilo Aarde: I see
[17:18]  You: it is challenging for the at-large participants because you haven't picked issues.
[17:18]  You: But I will give you the advice my father gave to the law students.
[17:18]  You: Pick an issue that you are passionate about.
[17:18]  Aphilo Aarde: What is that?
[17:18]  Aphilo Aarde: Sounds sensible.
[17:18]  You: Something that you want to change in the world.
[17:19]  You: Or something that you think is changing and you want it to stay the same.
[17:19]  You: (Coudl be in RL or SL)
[17:20]  You: Like, i know Marty is passionate about the management of the domain name system of the Internet.
[17:20]  You: I am sure there are quite a few disputes facing ICANN right now on which people are on both sides.
[17:20]  You: So Marty could pick one he really cares about, and then really think hard about the point of view of the people who disagree with him.
[17:21]  Marty Mehring: heh. that's a lot Rebecca. :) I have plenty to choose from. :)
[17:21]  You: Rather than starting right off with arguments about why his position is right, he could start by letting his opposition know that he understands why they hold their position.
[17:21]  You: But not in a snarky way that doesn't really express their view.
[17:22]  You: Rather in a way that they would listen to and say, "that's a fair representation of my point of view"
[17:22]  You: So, for instance, in class today one law student argued about street cleaning and towing cars in Cambridge MA for street cleaning.
[17:23]  Mobile Widget is Online
[17:23]  You: She believes that towing cars for street cleaning doesn't make sense and should stop.
[17:23]  You: But she started her argument by giving all of the reasons that street cleaning is a good idea.
[17:23]  Aphilo Aarde: SL froze.
[17:23]  You: And then she proceeded to take the rug out from under each of the different arguemnts for street clearning.
[17:23]  You: I can try to replicate her argument if that would be helpful.
[17:24]  Marty Mehring: sure.
[17:24]  You: or one of you could give it a try on a differnet issue if anyone would be brave enough to volunteer!
[17:24]  Marty Mehring: im trying to get snarky in check first! :)
[17:24]  You: any volunteers, or should i go first?
[17:25]  Marty Mehring: you go first then Ill think of one to volunteer for if you have time and want to continue. :)
[17:25]  Hart Zhao: I missed the begining what are we volunteeering for ?
[17:25]  Aphilo Aarde: I think it might be interesting to argue for introducing democracy, or more avatar-centered 'process' into second life.
[17:25]  You: (just waiting in case anyone wants to go first)
[17:26]  You: oh, the volunteering is for trying to make an empathic argument on an issue of your choice.
[17:26]  Mobile Widget is Offline
[17:26]  You: this is the assignment for this week for all students.
[17:26]  You: we want everyone to do it in a podcast--today's video gives explicit instructions on how to do it.
[17:26]  You: but i wanted to try it here.
[17:26]  You: i will go first to try to give the idea.
[17:27]  You: i am going to channel mary weld, the student who made this argument in class.
[17:27]  You: you will see her on the video when you watch it.
[17:27]  Aphilo Aarde: I think the reason that SL might not want to introduce democracy is that it isn't very efficient in constructing a world, and it makes programming more of a challenge, and costly as well - an empathic argument.
[17:27]  You: ok, here goes.
[17:27]  You: (Aphilo, maybe you can go after this.)
[17:27]  Aphilo Aarde: Sounds good.
[17:28]  You: I'm a resident of Cambridge, MA, and, like most residents, my car gets towed maybe once or twice a year when I forget to move it on street cleaning day.
[17:28]  You: It is very frustrating when it happens because you come home to find your car missing and at first you aren't sure if it is stolen or what.
[17:29]  You: You call the police, find that it was towed and then somehow have to get to the tow place where you pay $90 (at least) to get your car back.
[17:29]  You: Street cleaning happens once a month in June-December, so it seems like it comes around all the time.
[17:29]  You: Of course street cleaning is important for several reasons.
[17:29]  You: First, it is nice to have clean streets that are free of debris.
[17:30]  You: It keeps our city looking nice and it keeps the property values up.
[17:30]  You: Second, it keeps people from abandoning cars for long periods of time on the streets.
[17:30]  You: Third, it raises revenue for the city.
[17:30]  Mobile Widget is Online
[17:30]  Aphilo Aarde: OK
[17:30]  You: And, really, it is my fault when I get towed, because the street cleaning dates are clearly posted and announced by loud speaker each time they come around.
[17:31]  You: It is easy to figure out where to get my car back because the police post a number to call and tell you which tow company towed your car.
[17:31]  You: They also have a cop present when your car is towed to make sure it is towed safely.
[17:31]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes.
[17:31]  You: But in spite of all of this, I still think towing for street cleaning is a bad idea.
[17:32]  Sariah Chihuly: creates jobs
[17:32]  You: First, the city contracts with tow companies, and out of the $90 I pay for my car towing, $70 goes to the tow company.
[17:32]  You: So onl $20 goes to the city to do other public service.
[17:33]  You: Second, they could get abandoned cars off the street just by having people report them and regularly checking for them and towing those cars.
[17:33]  You: Third, there is little visible improvement in the looks of the street after street cleaning, so they could do it less often.
[17:33]  You: Fourth, they could probably do the same cleaning just by cleaning around the few cars people forget to move or by towing those cars out of the way and then putting them back and just giving them a ticket.
[17:34]  You: The actual towing only serves the purpose of enriching these few tow companies, while greatly inconveniencing the residents of Cambridge.
[17:34]  Aphilo Aarde: But perhaps, pragmatically, the 2nd and 3rd points aren't true, or are arguable.
[17:34]  Sariah Chihuly: problem with this argument is that the supposition is that the reason for the towing has to do with the goal of having clean streets.
[17:35]  You: For that reason, I think that street cleaning should happen without towing and with other less severe penalties for failing to move your car.
[17:35]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes, sariah
[17:35]  Sariah Chihuly: we are probably not supposed to interrupt. sorry.
[17:35]  Aphilo Aarde: It's a logical empathic argument, in some ways.
[17:35]  You: For instance, the tickets could be slightly larger, like $40 , for forgetting to move your car and the money could be used for paying the tow companies to move your car slightly and then move it back or for putting a boot on your car instead of towing it
[17:35]  You: Ok. Done.
[17:36]  Marty Mehring: nice rebecca
[17:36]  You: So we can talk about the substance of the argument, but I really want to focus on the empathic element of the argument.
[17:36]  Sariah Chihuly: who is she empathic with?
[17:36]  You: The question is whether I stated teh case of my opposition in a way that they would feel was fair.
[17:36]  Aphilo Aarde: I think so.
[17:36]  You: Good question Sariah.
[17:36]  You: What do you think?
[17:36]  You: Who was I empathizing with in this argument?
[17:37]  Marty Mehring: you were empathizing with people who forget to move ther cars
[17:37]  You: (in the technical sense meant by the term "empathic argument"?)
[17:37]  You: right, marty.
[17:37]  Sariah Chihuly: probably her, although I think she is empathising with the home owners who think the reasons for towing are the ones she stated.
[17:37]  You: my position is that I am empathizing with with the people who are frustrated.
[17:37]  Aphilo Aarde: I think your argument is empathic with institution of towing as a penalty for parking at times when it's prohibited.
[17:37]  You: But actually, in the technical sense, the empathic argument was as Aphilo says: with the people who think towing should keep happening.
[17:38]  Sariah Chihuly: And perhaps she is empathizing with the city who is hoping to get paid a little for the presence of the cop and the discomfort caused the street cleaner,
[17:38]  You: I was arguing that towing should stop, and in doing that I had to empathize with the people who think towing should continue.
[17:38]  Teresa Cinquetti: but wouldnt the empathsis be towards the reasoning of why the street cleaning takes place and then presenting the argument of why its not a good idea
[17:38]  Aphilo Aarde: Initially, but the argument part reflects the car owners.
[17:38]  Sariah Chihuly: but i'd say $20 doesn't even cover the cops time.
[17:38]  You: As Sariah says, i was trying to state the position of the city.
[17:38]  You: Yes, Teresa.
[17:38]  You: This is what is confusing.
[17:39]  Hart Zhao: actually end up convincing for an increase in the fines and motive for more cars to be towed
[17:39]  You: The empathy is with the people who disagree with me.
[17:39]  Teresa Cinquetti: mmhmm
[17:39]  You: So I am trying to convince people in favor of towing that they should no longer be in favor of towing.
[17:39]  Aphilo Aarde: with The city, the institution of car towing, with the reasoning for street cleaning, and car towing?
[17:39]  Sariah Chihuly: i actually thougth the idea of having a moving truck instead of a towing truck was a really great one -- that actually empathizes and solves the problems.
[17:39]  You: Right, Sariah.
[17:40]  You: Because I state all of the reasons that the city wants to tow.
[17:40]  You: And then I propose a solution that still satisfies all of those goals but takes away the bad parts of the towing.
[17:40]  You: So I say, towing is good because it earns money for the city.
[17:40]  You: And then I propose a solution that earns more for the city while still costing less to the person who gets the car towed.
[17:41]  You: I say that towing means cleaner streets, and then I propose a solution that keeps the streets just as clean without towing.
[17:41]  Aphilo Aarde: OK
[17:41]  You: I say that towing means fewer abandoned cars, and then I propose a solution that doesn't cost more for the city but still gets rid of teh abandoned cards.
[17:41]  You: (cars)
[17:41]  You: when I am done, there are no reasons for towing that I haven't countered.
[17:42]  crislc Amdahl is Online
[17:42]  You: And if I have done a good job empathizing, then I will have countered all of the reasons!
[17:42]  Teresa Cinquetti: I couldn't see the point of the earning money since as I think Sariah stated the cost of the police and the cost of the cleaner and tuck and all that is far greater. I would have centered more onthe beautification of the city. Cleaning is cleanin to me
[17:42]  Sariah Chihuly: which you did. except the one that is very punitive.
[17:42]  You: Right, so I propose a solution that keeps things just as clean.
[17:42]  Teresa Cinquetti: mmhmm
[17:43]  Sariah Chihuly: there are people who think that if the penalty is too light, you end up repeating the offense.
[17:43]  You: But the towing model requires lots of tow trucks to tow all the cars, and one cop to oversee.
[17:43]  You: The new model still requires one cop but only requires one tow truck to slightly move the cars and then move them back.
[17:43]  You: So the new model is cheaper.
[17:43]  Marty Mehring: are we debating this?
[17:43]  Teresa Cinquetti: So that is interesting since it has captured multiple points that could be argued against and therefore invovles mutliple POV's
[17:43]  Dagmar Kojishi is Offline
[17:43]  You: And I suggest that the tickets could be bigger, earning more for the city by not gving the tow companies such a big windfall.
[17:44]  Marty Mehring: the argument parts made sense to me.
[17:44]  Aphilo Aarde: And might aggravate car owners much less, and benefit the city, - a kind of win win solution
[17:44]  You: We are discussing this not because towing in cambridge is so important, but rather as an example of making an empathic argument more generally.
[17:44]  You: I'm hoping that now one of you might be willing to try making one about an issue that you are interested in.
[17:44]  GeneKoo Li: Can I suggest that one crucial element of empathetic argument isn't so much that it acknowledges other people's arguments so much as it acknowledges other people's (legitimate) interests
[17:45]  You: Note that it is probably a good idea to choose something small and fairly concrete because it is easier to get your mind around the arguemnts.
[17:45]  Marty Mehring: GKL: that's an important comment re: legitimate
[17:45]  crislc Amdahl is Offline
[17:45]  Marty Mehring: or legitimacy
[17:45]  GeneKoo Li: (Yes I mention legitimate because one interest that might be driving the argument for towing is sweetheart deals with towing companies)
[17:46]  You: yes, but i think you actually have to counter the arguments that have force with people, even if sometimes they aren't legit seemign to you.
[17:46]  crislc Amdahl is Online
[17:46]  You: right, so i'm never going to convince the tow companies.
[17:46]  GeneKoo Li: but put aside legitimacy, the point I'm making is that you need to get to why the other party cares, not just the form of their argument
[17:46]  You: because they have a strong self-interest that goes against reason.
[17:46]  You: What gene brings up really makes it clear that you have to think about who your audience is: who you are trying to convince.
[17:46]  Chianti Carmichael: "legitimate" can be subjective, depending who is making the argument? No?
[17:47]  Teresa Cinquetti: Can I ask what may be a silly question, since I am not familiar, but is the argument a one sided statement. By that I mean it is not a debate or a discussion.
[17:47]  Chianti Carmichael: To the tow companies, a need to make money would be legitimate.
[17:47]  GeneKoo Li: you might therefore, in an actual resolution to the situation, find a solution that meets those interests, aside from the formal logic of the arguments
[17:47]  Aphilo Aarde: In empathy, there is a recognition of how people feel in relation to reasoning, with an interest in trying to change both.
[17:47]  Sariah Chihuly: but you might convince the towing companies if you make them moving companies.
[17:47]  You: right chianti.
[17:47]  GeneKoo Li: Teresa, I think that's an important point in that you aren't making up the other POV
[17:47]  GeneKoo Li: I would imagine the best way to get the other POV is to actually go and find out what it is
[17:47]  You: but their interest may not be a good enough reason for the city to back their point of view.
[17:48]  You: they may be more interest in figuring out what is beneficial to the citizens more generally.
[17:48]  You: good point gene.
[17:48]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes, Gene
[17:48]  GeneKoo Li: IMHO empathetic argument isn't an abstract thing you do in your head, it's a very active process of going out and talking to ppl
[17:48]  You: you definitely really have to understand the point of view of the opposition to empathize.
[17:48]  You: and that is not easy.
[17:48]  GeneKoo Li: the logic of your own opinions can't match the reality of other people's real interests and framing of those interests
[17:48]  You: you have to go find out waht their arguments are and what their reasons are behind their arguments.
[17:49]  GeneKoo Li: empathy without dialogue is not empathy, it's imagination
[17:49]  You: it takes work to figure out how to empathize well.
[17:49]  You: i could do it here because mary put in work to figure out the arguments for towing.
[17:49]  Aphilo Aarde: But empathy still requires a hypothetical 'as if' understanding.
[17:49]  Aphilo Aarde: which is enhanced by dialogue.
[17:50]  You: it does not mean adopting the other point of view, just really understanding it.
[17:50]  You: so would anyone like to give it a try
[17:50]  You: ?
[17:50]  You: Gene and I will be more gentle than my father was with Mary in class today!
[17:50]  GeneKoo Li: you also don't have to be as long or as formal as Rebecca just was
[17:50]  Aphilo Aarde: It seems as if 'democracy in SL' is too large a topic, perhaps.
[17:50]  You: right.
[17:50]  Sariah Chihuly: oh, well that's encouraging :(
[17:51]  You: yes, I think that is a big topic to try out first!
[17:51]  Teresa Cinquetti smiles thinking of how her mother would use empathic arguments in setting rules
[17:51]  You: maybe something smaller and more concrete would be good to start.
[17:51]  GeneKoo Li: Teresa can you do that?
[17:51]  GeneKoo Li: I think that is a great idea
[17:52]  Teresa Cinquetti: hmm I might be able to but my problem is I let emotion get in my way
[17:52]  You: emotion is an asset in this.
[17:52]  GeneKoo Li: well what is an example of somehting your mom wanted you to do?
[17:52]  Teresa Cinquetti: Well lets take boing out with friends
[17:53]  You: (we can work on the empathic argument all together too)
[17:53]  You: (we can come up with the views of both sides together)
[17:53]  You: ok, good one.
[17:53]  Teresa Cinquetti: She would state how much fun its going to be etc...
[17:53]  You: we all have experience with that fight, i'm sure! from one side or the other...
[17:53]  Chianti Carmichael: Distracting from schoolwork/classwork can be done (even if in bits and pieces) over coffee at Denny's
[17:54]  Chianti Carmichael: neg/pos
[17:54]  GeneKoo Li: ah yes, good, so try with YOUR argument first
[17:54]  You: hmm, i'm confused.
[17:54]  Teresa Cinquetti: me too :P
[17:54]  Sariah Chihuly: i think many of the things my mother told me were based on the principles of empathic argument even if she didn't always spell them out
[17:54]  You: so we want to argue that we can go out with friends.
[17:54]  Sariah Chihuly: how would you feel if your brother hit you?
[17:55]  GeneKoo Li: e.g., Mom: "I know you've said in the past that you think going out with my friends is boring"
[17:55]  You: no, wait!
[17:55]  GeneKoo Li: oh am I picking the wrong side of the argument?
[17:55]  You: yeah, i think so.
[17:55]  You: I think we're trying to be the mom.
[17:55]  GeneKoo Li: right, yes
[17:55]  You: We want the kid not to go out.
[17:55]  GeneKoo Li: so wouldn't the mom
[17:55]  You: So we try to be empathic about why the kid wants to go out.
[17:55]  You: So we say "I know it is fun"
[17:55]  GeneKoo Li: oh, sorry, wrong scenario
[17:55]  Marty Mehring: thank you folx! My group is meetnig now. Goodbye!
[17:55]  Sariah Chihuly: well, then you are trying to imagine and counter the kids arguments
[17:55]  You: by marty!
[17:55]  Hart Zhao: bye
[17:55]  Sariah Chihuly: if everyone walked off a cliff would you?
[17:55]  You: right sariah.
[17:56]  Aphilo Aarde: Bye Marty
[17:56]  Teresa Cinquetti: hehe heard that one a few times
[17:56]  GeneKoo Li: mom: "I know that you really enjoy hanging out with your friend Guido"
[17:56]  You: hmm, that one never convinced me Sariah, but you are getting at something.
[17:56]  You: she might also say, "I know you think it is important in order to maintain your friendships"
[17:56]  DrHoward Idler is Online
[17:56]  GeneKoo Li: OK so teresa what are your best arguments for hanging out with your friends, start with that (right Becca?)
[17:56]  You: or whatever that lemming argument is trying to get at.
[17:56]  You: right gene.
[17:56]  You: The mom is trying to come up with the best arguments that the kid has for going out.
[17:57]  You: Stating them clearly.
[17:57]  You: And then countering them.
[17:57]  Chianti Carmichael: Building important social skills
[17:57]  You: Good on Chianti.
[17:57]  Sariah Chihuly: i just used to hear my brother say things like eveyrone else is going to the park/school/club/whatever.
[17:57]  Teresa Cinquetti: my arguements for hanging out with friends was just having a food time and my independence
[17:57]  Sariah Chihuly: and my dad would say, if everyone walked off a cliff...
[17:57]  You: How about because it is boring to stay home and I'm already done with my hoemwork and I'm old enough to take care of myself and I'm always responsible.
[17:57]  Chianti Carmichael: TCs argument is really storng, independence.
[17:58]  Sariah Chihuly: ok, so your mom isn't trying to say you should never hang out with your friends, right, just that there might be a time/place for that?
[17:58]  GeneKoo Li: mom: "I know you feel at your age that you are ready to make decisions about hanging out with friends by yourself without my input or involvement"
[17:58]  Hart Zhao: its 2 am here am falling asleep at the wheel.. Excellent SL class.. Bye of now. looking forward to reading this discussion log.
[17:58]  Chinadoll Lulu is Online
[17:58]  Hart Zhao is Offline
[17:58]  You: let me say that this is good what we are doing now.
[17:58]  Teresa Cinquetti: Tthats true Sairah
[17:59]  You: we are brainstorming the issue trying to figure out hte arguments from both sides.
[17:59]  You: we are discovering that maybe we need a more specific situation.
[17:59]  Sariah Chihuly: so you are trying to argue why this time is the right time, then Rebecca's arguments are very good.
[17:59]  GeneKoo Li: mom: "Last time we talked you expressed to me how important it is to maintain your friendships by spending time every night with them"
[17:59]  You: it would be difficult for a mom to argue that you should never go out with your friends.
[17:59]  Chianti Carmichael: Sunday night, always a tough one.
[17:59]  You: right gene.
[17:59]  Aphilo Aarde: Kids also need to learn on their own, and through experience, independent of their parents.
[18:00]  You: right, aphilo.
[18:00]  Teresa Cinquetti: Thats true she would more or less show me how to pick the times when it was more constructive or benficial for me
[18:00]  Sariah Chihuly: sunday night family time, unless you are jewish, then it is saturday or something else...
[18:00]  You: chance to make their own mistakes.
[18:00]  GeneKoo Li: mom: "I seem to hear you saying that if you don't hang out with your friends tonight that everyone tomorrow will be talking about the movie and you'll feel left out..."
[18:00]  Aphilo Aarde: It's a form of networking, and, depending on the group you hang out with, can lead to interesting discussions, and information exchanges.
[18:00]  You: good one gene! you are very good at channeling an empathic mom!
[18:01]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes, Gene.
[18:01]  You: so do you think we could role play?
[18:01]  You: maybe gene could be the mom and Teresa could be the kid?
[18:01]  GeneKoo Li: do you want to try a role reversal?
[18:01]  Chinadoll Lulu: (Happy Halloween!!!)
[18:01]  Sariah Chihuly: fun
[18:01]  GeneKoo Li: oh ok maybe let's do the role play un-reversed first?
[18:01]  You: Happy HalloweeN!
[18:01]  GeneKoo Li: hi chinadoll
[18:02]  You: (which way is that?)
[18:02]  Chinadoll Lulu: i am going to trick or treating as a ninja girl
[18:02]  GeneKoo Li: i have to run soon for dinner but I can do a quickie
[18:02]  Aphilo Aarde: That would add a rich element to empathisizing, b ringing out new aspects through dialogue
[18:02]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Chinadoll
[18:02]  You: Teresa, are you up for that?
[18:02]  GeneKoo Li: btw one really good tool for this kind of thing is role reversal
[18:02]  Chinadoll Lulu  =^.^=
[18:02]  Chinadoll Lulu: Hi Hi all
[18:02]  GeneKoo Li: have a friend play you, and you play the other person
[18:02]  Teresa Cinquetti: I can try
[18:02]  You: Great!
[18:02]  Chinadoll Lulu: save a seat for me, T
[18:02]  GeneKoo Li: and you "correct" your friend when she says something you wouldn't say
[18:03]  GeneKoo Li: OK, so Teresa I'm your mom oK/
[18:03]  You: Ok, everyone else, let's listen...
[18:03]  Chinadoll Lulu sits down on the ground.
[18:03]  Teresa Cinquetti: restate what we are doing so I know what to do please
[18:03]  You: gene is your mom.
[18:03]  You: she doesn't want you to go out.
[18:03]  You: you want to go out with friends.
[18:03]  GeneKoo Li: Ready?
[18:03]  Teresa Cinquetti: kk yes
[18:03]  You: she is going to try to argue empathically with you.
[18:03]  Chinadoll Lulu: (sorry what are we doing)
[18:03]  GeneKoo Li: Teresa, so let's talk about your asking to go out tonight
[18:04]  Sariah Chihuly: (watching an empathic argument demo)
[18:04]  Chinadoll Lulu: uh oh, you sure you want T to role play that...
[18:04]  Teresa Cinquetti: Yes mom. I was going to go out to the mall with my gf's. It s Friday night
[18:04]  Mobile Widget is Online
[18:04]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Joe
[18:05]  GeneKoo Li: OK, can you tell me a little bit about what you'll be doing at the mall?
[18:05]  Chinadoll Lulu: mmhmmm let her go please T's mom... we need her to shop with us! please please please
[18:05]  Teresa Cinquetti: Just hang out with friends
[18:05]  GeneKoo Li: (Since I don't actually know T's reasons, I need to ask, I suppose if I were really her mom I would know)
[18:05]  Teresa Cinquetti: Wea re going to meet in front of the Pizza place
[18:06]  Chinadoll Lulu: mmmhmmm (over the cell phone)
[18:06]  You: (you can improvise a bit--T already did to her advantage: no boys, friday night)
[18:06]  Teresa Cinquetti: (lies)
[18:06]  Chianti Carmichael: mom: Which friends? I would like to find out if I can carpool with another mom.
[18:06]  GeneKoo Li: OK, so I know that hanging out with your friends tonight is very important to you
[18:06]  Chinadoll Lulu: (i know you lie, T hehe)
[18:07]  Teresa Cinquetti: It is everyone is going to be there and its gonna be a lot of fun.
[18:07]  GeneKoo Li: From our conversations about this in the past, it sounds like a lot of your friends like to hang out on Friday nights together
[18:07]  Teresa Cinquetti: You know where I will be
[18:07]  GeneKoo Li: You've also told me that you feel really left out when you aren't there and people are talking about all the fun stuff they did without you
[18:08]  GeneKoo Li: Is that how you feel about hanging out on Friday nights?
[18:08]  Teresa Cinquetti: I miss that and they think Im dont like them
[18:08]  GeneKoo Li: OK, so you're saying that when you don't go out with yoru friends on Friday nights, they feel like you are snubbing them
[18:08]  Teresa Cinquetti: You know Linda. She will be there.
[18:09]  GeneKoo Li: In other words, they take it personally, is that right?
[18:09]  Teresa Cinquetti: Yeah a little bit
[18:09]  GeneKoo Li: You also feel like my not letting you go out is a sign that I don't trust you.
[18:09]  Teresa Cinquetti: I am getting good grades.
[18:10]  Teresa Cinquetti: I know you trust me Mom. So can I go please?
[18:10]  GeneKoo Li: You also feel like going out on Friday nights should be a reward for doing well in school
[18:10]  Teresa Cinquetti: mmhmm
[18:10]  GeneKoo Li: So, am I understanding you right about why you should be allowed to go out on Friday nights?
[18:10]  Teresa Cinquetti: Yes
[18:10]  GeneKoo Li: OK, well I definitely hear what you are saying
[18:11]  Teresa Cinquetti: yay so I can go?
[18:11]  GeneKoo Li: It's very important for you to spend time with your friends so you can feel like part of the group
[18:11]  Chinadoll Lulu: YAY
[18:11]  Aphilo Aarde: Empathic argument can go in more than two directions . . .
[18:11]  Chinadoll Lulu: (over the cell phone: pssttt.. hurry T)
[18:11]  GeneKoo Li: So let me share with you some of my reasons why I would prefer that you stay home tonight
[18:11]  Teresa Cinquetti: (I think Gene is doing pretty good here comes the killer)
[18:12]  GeneKoo Li: I understand that you feel like you get left out of the group if you miss time with them.
[18:12]  Aphilo Aarde: Which views people come to, depends a lot on what?
[18:12]  You: (heh heh--mom's always know...)
[18:12]  GeneKoo Li: But we both know, and have talked about, the fact that you can't spend EVERY MINUTE with them.
[18:12]  GeneKoo Li: so we also know that sometimes, you'll need to miss something because of other things that are more important.
[18:13]  GeneKoo Li: Also, you're on that cell phone 24-7 so I know that even if you're not there, you're going to find out everythign that happens in real time anyway
[18:13]  GeneKoo Li: You're also right that you are getting good grades, and I am very proud of you for that.
[18:13]  GeneKoo Li: Part of the reason why you are getting such great grades is that we have a policy that you need to do all your homework when you come home from school.
[18:13]  GeneKoo Li: And now that you are in a more advanced grade, that takes more time.
[18:14]  GeneKoo Li: So Friday nights are for finishing your homework, and then when you're done with that, you've got all of Saturday or Sunday to hang out.
[18:14]  GeneKoo Li: And from past experience, we both know that your friends are availble to hang out on both days.
[18:14]  Teresa Cinquetti: Woot Mom. I love you :)
[18:14]  GeneKoo Li: Finally, as far as your feeling that I don't trust you, I'm afraid that for now there is some truth to that.
[18:15]  GeneKoo Li: I know that at your age there is a big temptation to hang out with boys and do more than just flirt, and I know you've done that in the past when you've told me you haven't.
[18:15]  Chinadoll Lulu: (=D )
[18:16]  GeneKoo Li: So I want to trust you very much, but at this moment I'm afraid we have to rebuild that trust.
[18:16]  Teresa Cinquetti: ouch that hurt.
[18:16]  GeneKoo Li: * cut ? *
[18:16]  GeneKoo Li: * whew *
[18:16]  Chianti Carmichael: Does seem a difficult balance between empathic and patronizing.... (with due respect)
[18:16]  Aphilo Aarde: How much are you empathizing with Teresa's need to go out with her friends, Gene, and the value of it?
[18:16]  GeneKoo Li: Was I at all on target with respect to your mom's POV?
[18:16]  GeneKoo Li: Aphilo, that's a good question.
[18:16]  Chianti Carmichael: Is that a problem of our current medium, or a common problem in argument?
[18:16]  Teresa Cinquetti: you were in the first parts of the argument
[18:16]  GeneKoo Li: I'm not sure of T's mom's real reason for not letting her go out
[18:16]  GeneKoo Li: I am just making it up
[18:17]  You: Yes, this dispute is a bit abstract.
[18:17]  You: There are lots of situations in which this dispute could take place, and lots of different possible reasons.
[18:17]  GeneKoo Li: but I'm trying to show how I understand her interests, and how we can try to meet her interests (e.g. by going out later) while also meeting mine (by doing homework first)
[18:17]  You: But I think you both did a great job.
[18:17]  Teresa Cinquetti: Where you lost me and made me defensive was onthe last 3 sentences
[18:17]  GeneKoo Li: I'm actually filling in by channeling my own mom :)
[18:17]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes.
[18:17]  Teresa Cinquetti: at that point I sort of withdrew
[18:18]  GeneKoo Li: OK, sure, that last bit was very improv and can't really be done unless it were "real"
[18:18]  You: my mom used to do it with me in a very interesting way.
[18:18]  GeneKoo Li: neways my wife is yelling at me to eat dinner!
[18:18]  You: she used to say, give me your 3 best reasons why you want to go.
[18:18]  Aphilo Aarde: How, Rebecca?
[18:18]  You: And I'll give you my 3 best reasons that you shouldn't go.
[18:18]  You: And then you can decide.
[18:18]  GeneKoo Li: sorry i gotta run :(
[18:18]  Teresa Cinquetti: bye Gene thanks
[18:18]  You: Thanks for participating Gene!
[18:18]  GeneKoo Li: teresa, hope I didn't totally offend you or your mom!
[18:18]  GeneKoo Li: bye!
[18:18]  Chinadoll Lulu: bye pen pen
[18:18]  You: You will be a good mom some day!
[18:18]  Aphilo Aarde: Bye, Gene. Thanks for coming.
[18:18]  Teresa Cinquetti: ohhh no
[18:18]  Teresa Cinquetti: it was fun
[18:18]  GeneKoo Li: yes penguin chicks are really demanding ;)
[18:19]  Teresa Cinquetti: lol
[18:19]  Sariah Chihuly: bye gene, thanks.
[18:19]  Chinadoll Lulu: lol
[18:19]  GeneKoo Li is Offline
[18:19]  Sphere Gasser: happy halloween everyone
[18:19]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello Sphere
[18:19]  You: Well I think it might be good to try another role play.
[18:19]  You: Hello Sphere.
[18:19]  Chinadoll Lulu: weeee
[18:19]  Teresa Cinquetti: but that brought out an important point to me and I didnt realize it until it happened.
[18:19]  You: what was that Teresa?
[18:19]  Chinadoll Lulu: what is it, T
[18:20]  Teresa Cinquetti: That to empathize and get the persuasion to take place you have to be careful not to dienfranchise
[18:20]  Teresa Cinquetti: -5sp
[18:20]  You: yes, definitely.
[18:20]  Chianti Carmichael: or patronize, which I think is hard to avoid.
[18:20]  You: because if you don't make the other person really feel that you understand, you just alienate them and they stop listening.
[18:20]  Chianti Carmichael: Or at least to avoid the appearance of.
[18:20]  You: So here's the next role play I'd like to try.
[18:20]  You: A couple of weeks ago at office hours we had a really interesting debate about teens in SL.
[18:21]  Teresa Cinquetti: mmhmm
[18:21]  You: The basic probelm is that without credit card verification anyone can come into SL, even if they are quite young.
[18:21]  Aphilo Aarde: Is it posted, by any chance?
[18:21]  You: And they can go to mature areas which might be appropriate for adults but not for kids.
[18:21]  You: Chinadoll has strong feelings that this is a bad thing.
[18:21]  You: But Linden Labs has decided to get rid of credit card verification.
[18:22]  Chinadoll Lulu: mmhmmm
[18:22]  You: I wonder if we could get someone to be a Linden who has the power to decide whether to have credit card verification
[18:22]  You: and we could get Chinadoll to try to persuade that person to change teh rule.
[18:22]  You: but not by just arguing for changing the rule.
[18:22]  Chinadoll Lulu: muhahaha
[18:22]  You: rather, by first making teh Linden understand that she knows why they've made the choice.
[18:22]  Aphilo Aarde: Sounds interesting.
[18:22]  You: Does that sound good?
[18:23]  Chinadoll Lulu: sure thing
[18:23]  Teresa Cinquetti: I cant do that since I am for the age verification. It might be hard for me to play the opposition
[18:23]  You: Does anyone want to volunteer to be the Linden?
[18:23]  Chinadoll Lulu: hehe if you do that i lost already, T :P
[18:23]  Chianti Carmichael: TC, that might be all the better.
[18:23]  Aphilo Aarde: Or a good opportunity to practice empathy, Teresa.
[18:23]  You: I agree, it would be interesting to try to take a poistion that you don't hold.
[18:23]  Chinadoll Lulu: uh oh
[18:24]  Chinadoll Lulu: chi vs t
[18:24]  You: But maybe we could get someone who has't role played yet to be the Linden?
[18:24]  Chinadoll Lulu: this will be fun
[18:24]  You: So we get more people involved.
[18:24]  Aphilo Aarde: I'll try.
[18:24]  You: Ok, good.
[18:24]  Chinadoll Lulu: weee
[18:24]  Teresa Cinquetti smiles
[18:24]  You: So the tricky part here is for Chinadoll to truly empathize with the Linden position when she states the problem.
[18:24]  Chinadoll Lulu: *paging linden support*
[18:25]  You: She has to make Aphilo Linden really believe that she understands his point of view.
[18:25]  Chinadoll Lulu: mmm
[18:25]  Chinadoll Lulu: without getting upset?
[18:25]  Chinadoll Lulu: :D
[18:25]  Chinadoll Lulu: :P
[18:25]  Chinadoll Lulu stands up.
[18:25]  You: (you can ask for backup/help whenever you want...)
[18:25]  Dagmar Kojishi is Online
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu: then i will ask T as my backup ^_^
[18:26]  Aphilo Aarde: At LL, we've instituted a policy of restricting teens from mature areas, and are considering how we can enforce this.
[18:26]  Aphilo Aarde: Hello chinadoll.
[18:26]  You: Aphilo, you're backwards.
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu  =^.^=
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu: Hi Hi
[18:26]  You: you've instituted the opposite policy.
[18:26]  You: No credit card verification.
[18:26]  Aphilo Aarde: I'm Linden Labs.
[18:26]  Chinadoll Lulu: he is charmed by my beauty already
[18:26]  Aphilo Aarde: ok
[18:26]  You: yes, LL has taken away credit card verification.
[18:27]  You: (can you imagine why?)
[18:27]  Aphilo Aarde: But we still want to restrict teens from these areas, don't we?
[18:27]  You: (that question is for everyone)
[18:27]  Teresa Cinquetti: They are not restricting
[18:27]  Aphilo Aarde: ok
[18:27]  Chinadoll Lulu: well policy wise, they are
[18:27]  Chinadoll Lulu: in writing
[18:27]  You: you prefer teens not to go, and you say they shouldn't go, but you aren't enforcing that anymore.
[18:27]  You: it is all on an honor system now.
[18:28]  Chianti Carmichael: Still enforcing.
[18:28]  Constanza Corleone is Online
[18:28]  You: maybe Chinadoll's role playing will give you an idea of why you are doing this.
[18:28]  Aphilo Aarde: Teens are a rich customer base. Get them involved early, and they may participate for years.
[18:28]  You: Go to it Chinadoll.
[18:28]  Aphilo Aarde: Ok
[18:28]  Tetero Lesse: I think I read that it had to do with international issues. Ev'one in US has c cards Not so elsewhere.
[18:28]  You: Tell him why he has removed the restrictions...
[18:28]  Chinadoll Lulu  =^.^=
[18:28]  Chinadoll Lulu: Hi Hi Liden, i am a concerned customer of SL
[18:28]  Aphilo Aarde: Hi Chinadoll
[18:29]  Aphilo Aarde: What's your concern?
[18:29]  Chinadoll Lulu: i have been a customer for years however i have a suggestion in terms of your recent policy change
[18:29]  Aphilo Aarde: What's that?
[18:29]  Chinadoll Lulu: it is my understand that linden labs respect the safty of minor to a highest degree
[18:29]  Chinadoll Lulu: that i am greatly appreciate
[18:30]  Aphilo Aarde: It's very important to us.
[18:30]  Chinadoll Lulu: however, we do not understand why recently LL has removed the CC verification requirement at the reg process
[18:30]  Chinadoll Lulu: would you please explain why
[18:30]  You: chinadoll, you explain that you understand why.
[18:30]  You: let him know hat you understand his reasons.
[18:30]  You: (don't make him give the reasons)/
[18:30]  Chinadoll Lulu: let me introduce myself, i am the chairperson of a group of concerned parents in SL
[18:30]  You: we can help you.
[18:31]  Chinadoll Lulu: (huh)
[18:31]  You: for instance, you might give the reason "we understand taht credit card verification is difficult because not everyone has on"
[18:31]  Aphilo Aarde: We try to do a lot to discourage teens from mature areas, but teens are an important part of our customer base, and contribute in many ways to LL.
[18:31]  Chianti Carmichael: Trying to allow teens, since they don't ordinarily have ccars
[18:31]  Teresa Cinquetti overhears the conversation and steps closer "May I join your conversation pleae"
[18:31]  Chinadoll Lulu: (i do not get it)
[18:32]  You: "we understand that credit card verification is also difficult because it causes some people to be reluctant to join SL"
[18:32]  You: OK, let's pause for a minute.
[18:32]  Aphilo Aarde: What might I explain to you?
[18:32]  Chinadoll Lulu: (but i do not want to take that aproach)
[18:32]  You: Let me go back over the empathic argument idea again.
[18:32]  Chinadoll Lulu: (that is a weak approach)
[18:32]  You: The basic idea is that in order to persuade someone of something, you have to first convince them that you understand where they are coming from.
[18:33]  Chinadoll Lulu: (i sort of did)
[18:33]  You: So you have to state the problem in a way that is very fair to their point of view and shows that you get their point of ivew.
[18:33]  Annie Ely is Offline
[18:33]  Ipenda Keynes: ahh
[18:33]  Chinadoll Lulu: (by agreeing that they hold the policy to the high standard)
[18:33]  You: in this case, Linden Labs has lots of reasons for removing credit card verification.
[18:33]  You: If you want them to restrict teen access to mature areas, you have to address their concerns.
[18:33]  Annie Ely is Online
[18:33]  You: SO perhaps we can try this.
[18:33]  Aphilo Aarde: We try to lower barriers to entry to SL.
[18:34]  You: Perhaps I can try to convince you that it is a good idea to get rid of credit card verification.
[18:34]  You: Would you be up for that Chinadoll?
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: mmm ok
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: but the real issue is not just CC
[18:34]  You: (Of course I don't necessarily expect to convince you, but I can demonstrate the empathic argunent idea.)
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: the real issue is the loophole to allow teens in
[18:34]  Chinadoll Lulu: CC is only one of many points
[18:34]  You: OK, so here goes.
[18:35]  You: Hello Chinadoll.
[18:35]  Chinadoll Lulu: hi
[18:35]  You: I understand that you are the leader of a group of concerned parents in SL who are upset that we are not doing a good job of restricting teen access to mature areas.
[18:35]  Mobile Widget is Offline
[18:35]  You: This is very reasonable because SL has a lot of extreme adult content that is totally inappropriate for teens and children.
[18:36]  Chinadoll Lulu: well to be exact, not just teens but those who are under 13 yr old
[18:36]  You: Even the extreme stuff may not be appropriate for them.
[18:36]  You: I mean, even the non-extreme stuff.
[18:36]  Chinadoll Lulu: uh huh.
[18:36]  You: And as adult users of SL, it is important that people be able to enjoy the adult aspects of SL without feeling like you are corrupting children at the same time.
[18:37]  Chianti Carmichael: goods one.
[18:37]  Dagmar Kojishi is Offline
[18:37]  You: We used to have creidt card verification, and because people under 13 don't have credit cards, it was a pretty good way of keeping teens out.
[18:37]  You: So we could have mature areas without feeling like it was immoral.
[18:37]  You: Those who wanted to avoid them could avoid them.
[18:38]  You: And we could be sure that those who were there were old enough to be there.
[18:38]  You: But we decided to remove teh credit card verification for several reasons, even though we are very committed to the same protections for minors that youare.
[18:38]  Chianti Carmichael: (that might not be too strong, since there isn't _really_ a way to know for sure...)
[18:38]  You: We couldn't keep up the credit card verification because it was discouraging many people from joining SL.
[18:38]  Chinadoll Lulu: many people such as who
[18:39]  You: And because it also was a pretty rough way of telling what age people are.
[18:39]  You: many people such as those who were concerned about providing their credit card number online, and those who did not have credit cards.
[18:39]  You: so perhaps we can find a solution that will satisfy us both.
[18:40]  Chinadoll Lulu: well in respond to your last statement, LL
[18:40]  Chinadoll Lulu: it is true that by removing the CC procedure, you may invite more user in
[18:40]  Chinadoll Lulu: however at what cost
[18:40]  Chinadoll Lulu: now it is not just the underage
[18:40]  Chinadoll Lulu: it may not be a wise business decision as well
[18:41]  You: i mostly see what you are saying about cost.
[18:41]  Chinadoll Lulu: by removing the CC verification process, you are inviting people to create unauthroize mult accounts
[18:41]  You: certainly we do not want to do this at the expense of the safety of young people.
[18:41]  Chinadoll Lulu: which violate your rules as stated in the Terms of Service Agreement
[18:41]  Chinadoll Lulu: also
[18:41]  You: hmm, interesting point.
[18:41]  Chinadoll Lulu: those who do not have credit card, they are not a business drivers
[18:41]  You: i am not sure what the reason is for barring multiple accounts.
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: i.e. they do not create profit for your company
[18:42]  You: i personally think it is a very good thing to allow people to have multiple accounts.
[18:42]  Teresa Cinquetti: (only multiple free accounts are barred)
[18:42]  You: but really i want to talk to you about the protection of teens.
[18:42]  Chinadoll Lulu: (barring multi account = first account is free, second one is $10)
[18:42]  You: i would like to convince you that we can satisfy your goal of protecting teens and protecting adults from adding to the corruption of teens by means other than credit card verification.
[18:43]  Chinadoll Lulu: right, i just do not see why by removing the cc verification is helping and reinfocing the policy LL has set up
[18:43]  You: by removing the credit card verification we have opened the door for more accurate ways of doing age verification that do not require people to reveal sensitive financial data.
[18:43]  Chinadoll Lulu: such as?
[18:43]  You: we can still protect youth without requiring cc verification.
[18:44]  You: hmm, good questions...
[18:44]  You: i don't actually know the answer, because this is impromptu and i haven't really researched it.
[18:44]  You: but i can try to throw something together.
[18:44]  Chinadoll Lulu: are there back up plan should plan A fails
[18:44]  You: but actually, i think it will be just as good to stop here.
[18:44]  Teresa Cinquetti: (they have asked for reverse age verification onthe Teen grid)
[18:44]  Chinadoll Lulu: what if a teen that is really good at masking him or herself from the net
[18:45]  You: the key thing that i want to demonstrate here is that before i can convince you, i have to make sure that you think that i understand your point of view.
[18:45]  Chinadoll Lulu: yeah you did a great job rebecca
[18:45]  You: that gets you to a point where you will be willing to seriously discuss it with me.
[18:45]  You: so i do that by trying to state teh strongest points of your argument ina very fair way.
[18:45]  You: then i try to counter them.
[18:45]  Aphilo Aarde: Interesting points, Rebecca.
[18:45]  Chinadoll Lulu: but before, when you ask me to try to empathy LL, it does not work, because the parent group would complain, not to empathy a company
[18:46]  You: in this case i might counter them by saying that we could require a third-party age verifier before someone signs up for an account.
[18:46]  Ipenda Keynes: Very interesting, tactic.
[18:46]  You: perhaps that verifier could offer different modes of verification, only one of which is credit card.
[18:46]  Chinadoll Lulu: honestly there is none
[18:46]  Teresa Cinquetti: I was trying to think of ways to empathize with LL in order to make my argument
[18:46]  Chinadoll Lulu: besides social security or bank verification
[18:46]  You: or i might argue for an in-world solution in which we adopt a system of age verification so taht as an adult i can choose to only patronize establishments that have good verification.
[18:47]  Chinadoll Lulu: that is why pay pal uses that 2 verification methods
[18:47]  Chianti Carmichael: What if LL gave a "cheat" answer like "No matter what, someone will find a way around verification, so we decided to drop it altogether?
[18:47]  Chinadoll Lulu: or faxing a driver licence or government issues ID
[18:47]  Chianti Carmichael: "
[18:47]  You: that way i coudl avoid contributing to corruption of youth as an individual but it wouldn't protect all youth system wide.
[18:47]  Teresa Cinquetti: That was why I stated duringthe original argument that one would not let a teen into a XXX club in RL
[18:47]  You: right, that sort of thing could work chinadoll.
[18:47]  Chinadoll Lulu: that will not work chianti
[18:47]  Ipenda Keynes: Could you be *invited* by someone who *did* have credit card verification, perhaps?
[18:48]  Teresa Cinquetti: ahhh that is a great point
[18:48]  You: so the diea would be that i could state your argument to you, so that we get the main points of contention on the table, and then i could propose an alternate solution that solves your objections.
[18:48]  Chinadoll Lulu: that will only piss the parent group more
[18:48]  Teresa Cinquetti: Yes you can
[18:48]  You: or i could show how your objections are not well-founded.
[18:48]  Chianti Carmichael: But LL isn't trying to please parent group,
[18:48]  You: right, ipenda, something like that could work. though it still might not satisfy parents b/c pedophiles might be quick to make that offer to kids.
[18:48]  Sariah Chihuly: i think one of the issues this brings up is legislating against the problem people/criminals vs. trusting the public to be more or less who they say they are.
[18:48]  Chinadoll Lulu: what is a group point
[18:48]  You: right Chianti.
[18:48]  You: LL is trying to protect the bottom line.
[18:48]  Ipenda Keynes: Ack, didn't think of that...
[18:49]  You: They don't want to discourage users, so they don't want to require credit cards.
[18:49]  Chinadoll Lulu: yes i know what you were doing rebecca, to focus on the issue in this case
[18:49]  You: but i hope they would protect kids if they could do it without a bit bite out of the bottom line.
[18:49]  Sariah Chihuly: and don't they have a pretty good way of monitoring stuff/avatars, w/out the cc's?
[18:49]  Teresa Cinquetti: absolutley and whoheard about the ruling today against Philip Morris at 90x damages
[18:49]  Sariah Chihuly: and what about the kids with credit cards?
[18:49]  You: so there is room to come up with an alternate solution.
[18:50]  You: (this is not so much like the towing. with the towing, i could give reasons why their reasons were bad. here chinadoll's reasons are very good.
[18:50]  You: so i can't just take out her reasons. but i can try to find a solution that suits us both).
[18:50]  Chinadoll Lulu: kids do not have credit cards
[18:50]  Teresa Cinquetti: Another point for China to present to LL might be that its not LL job to police the children it is the families responsiblity
[18:50]  Chinadoll Lulu: there is a min age of sub cards
[18:51]  Chinadoll Lulu: by law that is
[18:51]  You: that's true, Teresa.
[18:51]  Chinadoll Lulu: yeah, rebecca, it is a hard example
[18:51]  You: But if i care about the children, i won't care about whose responsibility it is. I'll care about making sure the protection happens.
[18:51]  Sariah Chihuly: it seems to me that we are as a society basically holding everyone else to the standard of in loco parentis to make up for the parents not being there.
[18:51]  Teresa Cinquetti: ahhh that is true
[18:51]  Aphilo Aarde: Yes, Teresa, as a LL rep, we do ask, but don't verify, because we want to know.
[18:51]  Ipenda Keynes: But LL has no control over whether the parents actually police or not.
[18:52]  Teresa Cinquetti: See that is the odd part about LL
[18:52]  Teresa Cinquetti: Can I say one thing that I knwo to be true since I had this conversationwith LL
[18:52]  You: so right now LL is basically saying it cares about the kids but not doing anything to back that up.
[18:52]  You: just like they are saying they care about multiple free accounts but not doing anything to back that up.
[18:52]  Chianti Carmichael: (actually, I think LL doesn't want to know, lessens the liability)
[18:52]  You: i agree chianti.
[18:52]  Teresa Cinquetti: very true chianti
[18:52]  Chinadoll Lulu: actually, yes and no, it is true that family is the one should police the children, however, if anything happen because of this media and LL cannot proven to try all the possible way to ban children to the adult area, LL is at fault no matter what.
[18:53]  Aphilo Aarde: WE are working on a Third Party verification system
[18:53]  Teresa Cinquetti: they have utilized the reverse age verification
[18:53]  You: Right, Aphilo!
[18:53]  You: LL shoudl not have a problem w/ 3d party verification if they are really telling the truth about caring.
[18:53]  Teresa Cinquetti: Theay had teens submit proof of age to remain on the teen grid
[18:53]  You: That does not conflict with their interests.
[18:53]  Ipenda Keynes: What type of proof did they use, Teresa?
[18:53]  You: So fi you are arguing with LL, you migth acknowledge all of their concerns and then propose a 3d party verification as an alternative to cc verification.
[18:53]  Teresa Cinquetti: that proof could be in the form of passport Birth cetificate
[18:54]  You: If they are really telling the truth about caring, they will have a hard time objecting to that.
[18:54]  Teresa Cinquetti: lol theyeven said drivers license
[18:54]  Teresa Cinquetti: true and I was glad to hear that actually
[18:54]  Chianti Carmichael: Can we deduct then that if they oppose they really DON'T care?
[18:54]  Chianti Carmichael: That seems dangerous.
[18:54]  You: well, maybe they don't have a 3d party verification available that actually solves their problem.
[18:54]  Chinadoll Lulu: that is exposing more RL identity
[18:55]  You: And maybe they don't have the incentive to go find one.
[18:55]  Chinadoll Lulu: just the opposite of not using CC verification
[18:55]  Chianti Carmichael: Ah.
[18:55]  Mobile Widget is Online
[18:55]  Aphilo Aarde: We're also interested in other solutions.
[18:55]  Teresa Cinquetti: they also however know that Teens can get Main grid accounts and friend the Teen account to transfer Main grid items to the Teen grid
[18:55]  You: but if someone else put one together and it wasnt' too cumbersome, it might be hard for them to defend not adopting it.
[18:55]  Chinadoll Lulu: honestly, there is no cost effective way for a 3rd party solution
[18:55]  Aphilo Aarde: We're interested in your suggestions, as well.
[18:55]  Chinadoll Lulu: as i have stated
[18:55]  Teresa Cinquetti: ohhh kaching great idea Rebecca
[18:55]  Chinadoll Lulu: paypal only use 2 things
[18:55]  Chinadoll Lulu: bank verification
[18:55]  Chinadoll Lulu: or
[18:55]  Chinadoll Lulu: cc
[18:55]  Chinadoll Lulu: there is no other way
[18:55]  You: it would be nice if people could use one of a variety of things to verify.
[18:56]  Chianti Carmichael: Every system of "proof" has a fault,
[18:56]  You: like people could use a cc, or a paypal account, or a fax of a driver's license, or maybe some other things.
[18:56]  Ipenda Keynes: They even used to have text-message verification (how I signed up for my account)
[18:56]  Chianti Carmichael: and that might keep LL protecting their interests.
[18:56]  You: yes, but people might be happier if they could choose which fault they want to use...
[18:56]  Chianti Carmichael: Unlike using a stolen card at Amazon,
[18:56]  You: or perhaps they could do something in-between.
[18:56]  Chinadoll Lulu: lol
[18:57]  You: like have areas of SL that you can only go if you are verified.
[18:57]  Chianti Carmichael: there isn't anything to red flag identity abuse in SL.
[18:57]  Chinadoll Lulu: it is a tough issue
[18:57]  Chianti Carmichael: but now I'm arguing the wrong thing. ;)
[18:57]  Teresa Cinquetti: it is
[18:57]  You: a very tough issue.
[18:57]  You: but hopefully we got the empathic argument idea across a bit.
[18:57]  Chinadoll Lulu: right now you can sign up with a cell phone number, which could be used by a 8 yr old with a cell phone
[18:57]  You: it is an extremely difficult skill to develop.
[18:57]  Chinadoll Lulu: the idea is definately across
[18:57]  You: and it takes a lot of research on an issue to do it well.
[18:57]  Chianti Carmichael: Seems like experience as a mom is a strong start.
[18:57]  Chinadoll Lulu: i know what you mean
[18:57]  You: i am certainly not a master of it.
[18:57]  Chinadoll Lulu: hehe
[18:58]  Aphilo Aarde: I think you've given some great examples about what empathic argument is.
[18:58]  Chinadoll Lulu: rebecca, i am not from that background that need to use that skill at all
[18:58]  You: yes, mom-hood is good experience for lots of things...
[18:58]  Teresa Cinquetti: I think I can understand what is meant by an empathic argument now
[18:58]  Chinadoll Lulu: so it is very hard for me to do that
[18:58]  Chinadoll Lulu: usually what we say, goes
[18:58]  You: anyeon who needs to persuade people can benefit from learning this skill.
[18:58]  Chinadoll Lulu: hehe
[18:58]  Chianti Carmichael: It is far more difficult than it appeared on the surface.
[18:58]  Teresa Cinquetti: mmhmm
[18:58]  You: so let me tell you a bit about what we're asking people to do this week.
[18:58]  You: it is, of course, totally optional for at-large participants.
[18:58]  You: but it could be fun/interesting for you.
[18:59]  You: we've asked people to select a topic that you really care about.
[18:59]  Aphilo Aarde: Please . . .
[18:59]  You: and to record a 2.5 minute podcast in which you make an empathic argument to your opposition on that topic.
[18:59]  You: and then upload it to our cyberonepodcast blog.
[18:59]  You: all of the law students are doing it.
[18:59]  You: all of the extension school students are doing it.
[18:59]  You: and hopefully some of the at-large participants will do it too.
[18:59]  Chianti Carmichael: Are we back at lemmings? ;)
[18:59]  You: it is pretty easy to do.
[19:00]  You: today's lecture video, which is posted on the course website, has all of the instructions on how to do it.
[19:00]  Aphilo Aarde: Sounds interesting.
[19:00]  Chinadoll Lulu: :P
[19:00]  You: all you need to have is access to a computer with a built-in microphone, which most computers have.
[19:00]  Ipenda Keynes: It does.
[19:00]  Chianti Carmichael: Thank you, Rebecca.
[19:00]  Teresa Cinquetti: How does one make a podcast?
[19:00]  Marty Mehring is Offline
[19:00]  Teresa Cinquetti: kk
[19:00]  You: and you can download some free open-access software called "audacity" to do the recording.
[19:01]  You: All fo the instructions and 4 examples of doing it happened in the lecture video from class today.
[19:01]  You: It is very easy.
[19:01]  You: Basically you just record an mp3 and upload it to the blog.
[19:01]  You: In order to upload to the blog you need a username for the blog.
[19:01]  Aphilo Aarde: Sounds very easy.
[19:01]  Chinadoll Lulu: yeah sounds
[19:01]  Ipenda Keynes: Can it be the same as our sl name?
[19:01]  You: So if you want one, IM me your email address so that I can add you to the authors of the blog.
[19:01]  Chinadoll Lulu: :)
[19:01]  Chinadoll Lulu: i had a hard time doing it on text already
[19:01]  Ipenda Keynes: ah, n/m
[19:02]  You: if you want a particular username, IM me that too.
[19:02]  You: it is easier to record because it is so much easier to talk than to type.
[19:02]  Sariah Chihuly: i barely have time to listen to them.
[19:02]  Chinadoll Lulu: actually for my case is the opposite
[19:02]  Chinadoll Lulu: i do better in writing than speaking
[19:02]  You: and you can practice it or re-record it if you don't like how it comes out the first time.
[19:02]  Constanza Corleone is Offline
[19:02]  Chinadoll Lulu: (ESL)
[19:02]  You: 4 law students did it in class today, so if you watch the video, you can see them try it out.
[19:03]  Chinadoll Lulu: ok
[19:03]  You: I think today's video was pretty easy to follow.
[19:03]  Sariah Chihuly: rebecca, can we ask other questions?
[19:03]  You: My dad was a bit hard on the students, but he meant to be nicer to them!
[19:03]  You: And they did a really good job.
[19:03]  Chinadoll Lulu: poor students
[19:03]  You: Lots of talk about empathic argument.
[19:04]  You: yes, please ask other qeustions.
[19:04]  Chinadoll Lulu: but how does one aruge
[19:04]  You: we'll stop the programmed stuff now.
[19:04]  Chianti Carmichael: Be well everyone, and goodnight. Thank you again Rebecca.
[19:04]  Sariah Chihuly: i listened to the first lecture on prx
[19:04]  You: Good night Chianti.
[19:04]  You: Thanks for coming.
[19:04]  Aphilo Aarde: Thanks very much, Rebecca.
[19:04]  Ipenda Keynes: See ya Chianti
[19:04]  Chianti Carmichael: my pleasure....
[19:04]  Sariah Chihuly: and i am wondering where their funding comes from?
[19:04]  Teresa Cinquetti: night
[19:04]  Teresa Cinquetti: oops too late
[19:04]  Chinadoll Lulu: huh
[19:04]  Aphilo Aarde: Hope to see you soon.
[19:04]  Chinadoll Lulu: what funding
[19:04]  Aphilo Aarde: Good night, everyone.
[19:05]  Chinadoll Lulu: Rebecca, i would like to ask another question after sariah
[19:05]  Teresa Cinquetti: Night
[19:05]  Chinadoll Lulu: are you saying LL fudning?
[19:05]  Teresa Cinquetti: Nice to meet you Apjilio
[19:05]  You: hmm, I dont know the answer Sariah.
[19:05]  Teresa Cinquetti: ops sorry
[19:05]  You: I wonder if it says on their website.
[19:05]  Aphilo Aarde: And you teresa
[19:05]  Ipenda Keynes: Take care, Aphilo
[19:05]  Chinadoll Lulu: nite nite aphilo
[19:05]  Aphilo Aarde: Bye Ipenda.
[19:05]  Sariah Chihuly: ok.
[19:05]  You: I suspect they get part of their funding from the member radio stations.
[19:06]  You: But I don't know how they got started.
[19:06]  Sariah Chihuly: it just sounds like such a great thing -- but someone has to pay the bills.
[19:06]  Chinadoll Lulu: sorry what funding for who, i am a bit lost
[19:06]  You: I will write to Jake and ask him that.
[19:06]  Sariah Chihuly: ok.
[19:06]  You: (feel free to ask other questions too)
[19:06]  Chinadoll Lulu: yes i have questions, rebecca
[19:06]  Sariah Chihuly: I need to log out now too, thanks a ton for tonight.
[19:06]  You: (PRX is a cool Internet radio project)
[19:06]  You: (Lecture on Monday was about it)
[19:06]  Teresa Cinquetti: I guess I havent gotten far enough into the website yet to see whaere the video's are
[19:06]  You: Good night Sariah.
[19:06]  You: Thanks for coming.
[19:06]  Ipenda Keynes: Nite Sariah
[19:06]  Chinadoll Lulu: i have not been to the web site yet
[19:06]  Sariah Chihuly: goodnight all.
[19:06]  You: Oh, let me get the link for you.
[19:07]  crislc Amdahl is Offline
[19:07]  You: It is a bit hard to find...
[19:07]  You: one sec...
[19:07]  Teresa Cinquetti: I joined the State of Play site
[19:07]  Chinadoll Lulu: what is state of play, T
[19:07]  Teresa Cinquetti: and the google groups Cyberone
[19:08]  Chinadoll Lulu: gosh i need all those links
[19:08]  Chinadoll Lulu: i only watched all the vid in SL
[19:08]  Teresa Cinquetti: http://stateofplayacademy.com/login/index.php
[19:08]  Teresa Cinquetti: http://groups.google.com/group/cyberone?msg=pending
[19:09]  Chinadoll Lulu: these are 2 things?
[19:09]  You: it is hard for me to get into my browser while I'm running SL.
[19:09]  You: You can get the videos by going to the course website: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/cyberone
[19:09]  You: Then click on "Lecture videos" on the side bar.
[19:09]  You: It gives you a few places to go to get them.
[19:09]  Chinadoll Lulu: i went there and i do not see the vid
[19:09]  Ipenda Keynes: Wasn't there a notecard someplace...I thought I got something.
[19:09]  You: The best place is "The Weeks Pages".
[19:09]  You: There is a page for each week fo the course with the lectures from taht week.
[19:10]  You: And also all of the readings, and class notes, and other resources for that week.
[19:10]  Chinadoll Lulu: i will find out
[19:10]  Teresa Cinquetti: what about the weekly discussions that were supposed to be entered?
[19:10]  You: Can anyone open a browser and grab a link to the Weeks pages now?
[19:11]  You: Well, there are a few kinds of weekly discussion.
[19:11]  Teresa Cinquetti: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/cyberone/course-materials/lecture-videos/
[19:11]  You: There is this, which is the best weekly discussion.
[19:11]  Teresa Cinquetti: I found it
[19:11]  Chinadoll Lulu: rebecca, may i ask about before
[19:11]  You: And then there are journal entries where studnets write their impressions of the vidoes and readings for the week.
[19:11]  You: yes, please ask any questions.
[19:11]  Teresa Cinquetti: thats what I meant to say the journals
[19:12]  Chinadoll Lulu: before when i tried to talk to LL
[19:12]  DrHoward Idler is Offline
[19:12]  Chinadoll Lulu: i did state that i understand their strict policy
[19:12]  Chinadoll Lulu: how come that is not empathy
[19:12]  Chinadoll Lulu: i know in that situation parent group will never use empathy arguement
[19:12]  Teresa Cinquetti: may I try to answer that
[19:12]  Chinadoll Lulu: to a company
[19:13]  Chinadoll Lulu: cuz i was not able to finish what i lay out
[19:13]  Chinadoll Lulu: i wanted them to admit fault
[19:13]  Chinadoll Lulu: then ask why lower the standard
[19:13]  Teresa Cinquetti: You did empathize but only to one point. There are many points that LL has as to why they do what they do.
[19:13]  You: yes, please do teresa.
[19:14]  You: it seems to me that you stated their surface policy about protecting teens.
[19:14]  Chinadoll Lulu: right, what i wanted to do is let them talk and i can attack the points
[19:14]  Chinadoll Lulu: right
[19:14]  Teresa Cinquetti: So you have to ge them listening to you and then sawy them to your POV
[19:14]  Chinadoll Lulu: and use it to my advantage
[19:14]  You: But if I ask you why they really do what they do, you would tell me that it is because they want to make more money.
[19:14]  Teresa Cinquetti: sway*
[19:14]  You: To empathize you have to empathize with their real reasons.
[19:14]  You: You are trying to persuade them.
[19:14]  Chinadoll Lulu: mmm
[19:15]  Chinadoll Lulu: but in that case empathize is weak
[19:15]  You: Exactly T.
[19:15]  Chinadoll Lulu: you do not empathize a company
[19:15]  You: It is not weak because if they don't think you understand them, they will not listen to you at all.
[19:15]  Chinadoll Lulu: mmm
[19:16]  Chinadoll Lulu: i guess i am too used to being on the client side
[19:16]  You: Think of it as a situation in which they do not have to listen to you, so you have to make them want to listen to you.
[19:16]  Chinadoll Lulu: and everyone must listen to us
[19:16]  Chinadoll Lulu: or they do not get paid
[19:16]  You: You have to convince them that you have something valuable to offer them.
[19:16]  Teresa Cinquetti: One way to put them on the defensive after youhave them listening might be to inform them of the ruling on the Philip Morris case and the damages awarded at 90x
[19:16]  You: And you can only do that if they think you understand what they have at stake in the issue.
[19:16]  Chinadoll Lulu: i see
[19:16]  Chinadoll Lulu: so i should think as a vendor side
[19:16]  Chinadoll Lulu: trying to convince the client that whatever we are doing is a good idea
[19:17]  You: i think you could envision it from either side of a negotiation or argument.
[19:17]  Chinadoll Lulu: i do not know who phlip morris is
[19:17]  Chinadoll Lulu: so i have no idea what it is
[19:17]  You: whenever your point of view is different from someone else, you need to really understand where they are comign from if you want to persuade them.
[19:17]  Teresa Cinquetti: and maybe putting them on the defensive might be incorrect since they will stop listening just as I did
[19:17]  You: unfortunately, i have to go back to RL now.
[19:18]  You: but this was a wonderful evening.
[19:18]  You: I really enjoyed it.
[19:18]  Chinadoll Lulu: i agree
[19:18]  Teresa Cinquetti: night I neeed to run also
[19:18]  Chinadoll Lulu: i learned something new for my job
[19:18]  Ipenda Keynes: Thanks Rebecca. Glad I ran into you earlier! This was great.
[19:18]  Chinadoll Lulu: thank you Rebecca
[19:18]  You: It is really nice to have so many people interested in getting into ideas like this.
[19:18]  You: Good night everyone.
[19:18]  Chinadoll Lulu: hehe
[19:18]  Teresa Cinquetti: night
[19:18]  Ipenda Keynes: Take care, Rebecca.
[19:18]  Chinadoll Lulu: night
[19:18]  Teresa Cinquetti: Chi I need to run I am really super late
[19:18]  Chinadoll Lulu: go home first please?
[19:18]  Ipenda Keynes: And Teresa. Take care.
[19:18]  Chinadoll Lulu: oh ok
[19:19]  Teresa Cinquetti: you too Ipenda
[19:19]  Chinadoll Lulu: we talk tomorrow T
[19:19]  Chinadoll Lulu: muuwah
[19:19]  Teresa Cinquetti: yes
[19:19]  Chinadoll Lulu: we have a lot to talk about