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Larry Peterson Deposition, in MPAA v. 2600

NY; July 10, 2000

See related files:
http://www.eff.org/IP/Video (EFF Archive)
http://jya.com/cryptout.htm#DVD-DeCSS (Cryptome Archive)
http://www.2600.com/dvd/docs (2600 Archive)
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/dvd/ (Harvard DVD OpenLaw Project)


        2       00 Civ. 0277 (LAK)
        3       UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC.,      :
        5       PICTURES INDUSTRIES, INC., TIME    :
                WARNER ENTERTAINMENT CO., L.P.,    
        6       DISNEY ENTERPRISES, INC., and      :
                TWENTIETH CENTURY FOX FILM         
        7       CORPORATION,                       :
        8                  Plaintiffs,             :
                                                 DEPOSITION OF:
        9            vs.                         LARRY PETERSON 
       10       SHAWN C. REIMERDES, ERIC CORLEY,      
                a/k/a "EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN" and     :
       11       ROMAN KAZAN and 2600 ENTERPRISES, 
                INC.,                              :
                           Defendants.             :
       13       ------------------------------------
                      TRANSCRIPT of the stenographic notes of 
       15       the videotape proceedings in the above-entitled 
                matter, as taken by and before JOMANNA CASTANO, a 
       16       Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, 
                held at the offices of PROSKAUER ROSE, LLP
       17       1585 Broadway, New York, New York, on Monday,
                July 10, 2000, commencing at 10:30 in the
       18       morning. 
                          245 Park Avenue
       24                   39th Floor
                      New York, New York  10167
       25        (212) 792-5623  Fax: (212) 792-5624



                A P P E A R A N C E S:
                     PROSKAUER ROSE, LLP
        3            BY:  WILLIAM M. HART, ESQ.
                     1585 Broadway
        4            New York, New York 10036-8299
                     (212) 969-3095
        5            Attorneys for Plaintiffs
        6            FRANKFURT, GARBUS, KLEIN & SELZ, P.C.
                     BY:  MARTIN GARBUS, ESQ.
        7            488 Madison Avenue
                     New York, New York 10022
        8            (212) 826-5582
                     Attorneys for Defendant Eric Corley
                ALSO PRESENT:  Eileen Dougherty, Videographer












                            245 Park Avenue
       24                     39th Floor
                       New York, New York  10167
       25        (212) 792-5623  Fax: (212) 792-5624



        1                          I N D E X

        2                   E X A M I N A T I O N S

        3       WITNESS                BY                 PAGE  

        4       LARRY PETERSON       MR. HART               4
        7                       E X H I B I T S
        8       NUMBER         DESCRIPTION                PAGE
        9       1              A Document                   4
                2              Declaration                  4
                3              Table of contents           20
       12             (Exhibits were retained by counsel)
















        2                  (Whereupon, Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 are 

        3       marked for identification.)

        4                  THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Eileen Dougherty, 

        5       member of the National Legal Video Association for 

        6       New York Reporting.  We're on the record at 10:29 

        7       a.m. on July 10th, 2000.  We're here for the case 

        8       Universal versus Reimerdes.  The witness today is 

        9       Larry Peterson.  We're at the location of 1835 

       10       Broadway, New York, New York -- 1585 Broadway, New 

       11       York, New York. 

       12                  Will the attorneys please state their 

       13       appearances for the record.

       14                  MR. HART:  I'm Bill Hart from Proskauer 

       15       Rose for the plaintiffs.

       16                  MR. GARBUS:  Martin Garbus for the 

       17       defendants.

       18                  THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  And will the court 

       19       reporter please administer the oath.






       25            Q.    Good morning, Professor.  How would you 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       prefer that I address you?

        3            A.    Professor is fine.

        4            Q.    Professor?  Okay.  Thank you. 

        5                  Would you give us your home address for 

        6       the record, please.

        7          			   CONFIDENTIAL 


        9            Q.    Thank you.  Are you employed, sir?

       10            A.    Yes.

       11            Q.    By whom?

       12            A.    Princeton University.

       13            Q.    How long have you been employed by 

       14       Princeton?

       15            A.    Two years.

       16            Q.    And what is your job at Princeton?

       17            A.    I'm a full professor.  I teach classes 

       18       and advise students, conduct research.

       19            Q.    Do you also consult?

       20            A.    Some, yes.

       21            Q.    Have you ever testified in any court 

       22       proceedings before?

       23            A.    No.

       24            Q.    Have you ever been deposed in 

       25       connection with any court proceedings before?



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            A.    No.

        3            Q.    Do you have a current copy of your 

        4       curriculum vitae?

        5            A.    I sent one by e-mail at one point.

        6                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.  Did we not forward 

        7       it to you?  I understood we had as part of the 

        8       affidavit.

        9            Q.    Okay.  Let me mark Exhibits 1 and 2 and 

       10       ask you if you can tell me whether your curriculum 

       11       vitae is among either of the exhibits I've just 

       12       handed you.

       13            A.    No, I don't see it. 

       14                  MR. HART:  Could we ask you to contact 

       15       your office and zip that over to us?

       16                  MR. GARBUS:  Sure.

       17            Q.    I don't want to take a long time 

       18       getting your track record, but where were you 

       19       before Princeton?

       20            A.    I was at the University of Arizona for 

       21       13 years on the faculty.

       22            Q.    On the faculty?

       23            A.    Yes.

       24            Q.    Are there any areas of specialization 

       25       that you have as a professor?



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            A.    Broadly, computer systems, computer 

        3       software.  And more narrowly, computer networks 

        4       and operating systems.

        5            Q.    And how long have you been focused, as 

        6       you say, "more narrowly" on computer systems and 

        7       networks?

        8            A.    Since my graduate student days.  I was 

        9       at the -- a student at Purdue University.  I 

       10       started working on networking-related things back 

       11       in 1980.  I've been basically on that area since.

       12            Q.    Just so we start out on the same page, 

       13       can you tell me what you mean when you say 

       14       "computer network" or "network-related 

       15       activities."

       16            A.    Primarily, I have focused on the 

       17       Internet since the very early days of the 

       18       Internet.  So, it's not the telephone system, it's 

       19       not the cable system in particular, but it's the 

       20       Internet as it's evolved.

       21            Q.    Okay.  And is there any special meaning 

       22       to the word "network" in the context of the 

       23       Internet?

       24            A.    I'm not sure I understand the question.  

       25       The Internet is a network.



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            Q.    Is there more than one kind of network 

        3       in computer science?

        4            A.    Yes, you could say that there are 

        5       different specialized networks.  The telephone 

        6       network is a network.  It's evolved over the 

        7       years.  It's much different than it used to be.

        8            Q.    Why is that?

        9            A.    As they have attempted to accommodate 

       10       all the data that's being transmitted and the 

       11       Internet, they have adapted to that.

       12            Q.    How have they adapted to that?

       13            A.    Trying to bring the Internet technology 

       14       into the way they deliver -- trying to integrate 

       15       voice and data, essentially.

       16            Q.    How is that done technically, without 

       17       getting too technical?

       18            A.    You would like a single set of physical 

       19       resources linked, transmission cables and switches 

       20       and routers, to be able to deliver both the data 

       21       that computers want to exchange and the voice that 

       22       typical users at home want to use.

       23            Q.    Do improvements in telephone network 

       24       systems include such things as digitized signals, 

       25       compression, and high-speed switching?



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            A.    Those are all elements of it, yes.

        3            Q.    Are there any other elements?

        4            A.    What was the original question again? 

        5            Q.    We were talking about the improvements, 

        6       if you will, to accommodate more data and talking 

        7       about some of the technical things that facilitate 

        8       that.  And my last question was whether 

        9       digitization of content, whether compression 

       10       technology and whether high-speed switching 

       11       improved the data transmission, and you said, yes, 

       12       and you said those were some of the factors. 

       13                  And my question now -- I apologize for 

       14       being so laborious, but my question now is what 

       15       are the other factors or considerations?

       16            A.    So, there is both the technology 

       17       required to deliver content, which includes the 

       18       rate at which I can transmit data and it includes 

       19       the switches.  Those are called various things 

       20       depending on technical circumstances, hubs, 

       21       switches, routers, there's nuances there. 

       22                  And then there's the content, whatever 

       23       it is you want to deliver, and some technologies 

       24       have made -- so you're trying to match the 

       25       content, in essence, with the capabilities of the 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       delivery system.  Some technologies, like 

        3       compression, help bring the content closer to what 

        4       the technology is able to deliver. 

        5                  So, you asked for other things.

        6            Q.    Yes.

        7            A.    The other thing is the control of all 

        8       of that technology.  And the hard problem there is 

        9       that the transmission facilities and the switches 

       10       are all shared resources, many different people's 

       11       data is being transmitted over them.  And the 

       12       management of who gets to transmit their data 

       13       when, who gets to achieve this bandwidth and who 

       14       gets to achieve that bandwidth, is probably the 

       15       single greatest conditional ingredient.

       16            Q.    How is that management function 

       17       performed?  Is that a technological function, is 

       18       that something that involves human interaction, or 

       19       both?

       20            A.    At different levels it's both technical 

       21       and human.  At the very highest level, people 

       22       decide we need a new trunk between San Francisco 

       23       and Boston.  So, the very high-level decisions 

       24       like that are made.  But on a packet-by-packet 

       25       basis, there is software, in essence, that 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       controls whose packet gets to go next, and that, 

        3       in the end, influences whose content is delivered 

        4       and what rate.

        5            Q.    Just so the record is clear, when you 

        6       say "packet," you're referring to -- 

        7            A.    "Packet" is a fragment or a chunk of 

        8       whatever data you're trying to transmit.

        9            Q.    Is it characteristic of modern 

       10       telecommunications and content delivery systems 

       11       that data is broken up -- a particular set of data 

       12       to be transmitted is broken up into packets and 

       13       those packets are transmitted separately and at 

       14       different times or at different rates?

       15            A.    That is the chief philosophy behind the 

       16       Internet, and what, in some sense, distinguishes 

       17       it from the earlier telephone networks.  It is a 

       18       packet switch network, so that's the key idea.

       19            Q.    Do you have any specialized knowledge, 

       20       background, or expertise in the area of video 

       21       codex?

       22            A.    Not in particular.

       23            Q.    Do you have any specialized knowledge 

       24       or expertise in the area of transmission of 

       25       audiovisual content over the Internet?



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            A.    I know a little bit about MPEG-2, 

        3       MPEG-1 compression.

        4            Q.    Okay.  What do you know?

        5            A.    And then my chief focus is on the 

        6       interplay between compression and the transmission 

        7       capabilities, so the interplay between compressing 

        8       a piece of video, for example, and then 

        9       transmitting it. 

       10                  To your question, I know, at some level 

       11       of detail, how MPEG-2 works in terms of a video is 

       12       a sequence of frames, still images.  There is a -- 

       13       different ways that you compress each one.  Some 

       14       frames are compressed relative to earlier frames 

       15       because the content didn't change much, you can 

       16       just give the differences.

       17            Q.    Right.

       18            A.    Other frames are called reference 

       19       frames, and they're compressed in a different way.

       20            Q.    Have you ever used any video 

       21       compression devices or software?

       22            A.    My students have implemented MPEG-2 

       23       decompression in software.

       24            Q.    Decompression.

       25            A.    Decompression.  We have done a little 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       bit of work in the compression, but not very much.

        3            Q.    In answering that you referred to your 

        4       students.

        5            A.    My students and I, right.

        6            Q.    My question is have you personally, 

        7       Professor, had experience using video codex?

        8            A.    Not codex.

        9            Q.    I'm sorry, video compression.

       10            A.    Compression?

       11            Q.    Devices or software.

       12            A.    Define "personally."  I've watched MPEG 

       13       videos.  I have looked at pieces of the software.  

       14       I have talked with my students and we've drawn 

       15       diagrams on the board explaining how things 

       16       worked.

       17            Q.    Okay.  Have you ever taken a data file 

       18       containing audiovisual content and caused it to be 

       19       compressed using some kind of video compression 

       20       software?

       21            A.    No, not that I can recall.

       22            Q.    Do you know what DivX is? 

       23            A.    I know of two DivX's.

       24            Q.    The second one, sir. 

       25            A.    My understanding is that DivX is a  



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       program that will do MPEG-4 video compression.

        3            Q.    Have you ever used DivX or MPEG-4 

        4       compression tools?

        5            A.    No.

        6            Q.    Have you ever seen the picture that 

        7       results from a video file that has been compressed 

        8       using DivX or MPEG-4?

        9            A.    By "picture" you mean?

       10            Q.    Display, screen display.  Have you ever 

       11       seen the resulting --

       12            A.    I have not seen a video.  What I have 

       13       seen is a still image, a snapshot of a video on a 

       14       DivX site.  I was curious and I went and looked at 

       15       what was there.  They have some trailers that they 

       16       had compressed and they were still shots.

       17            Q.    Do you remember what site that was?

       18            A.    Divx.ctw.cc, I believe.

       19            Q.    And does that site provide DivX 

       20       software utilities for download?

       21            A.    As I recall, it does.

       22            Q.    Does it also provide instructions to 

       23       users on how to use such software?

       24            A.    I don't -- I didn't look that far.

       25            Q.    Can you tell me, to the best of your 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       recollection, why you looked at that site?

        3            A.    Because I had seen an earlier 

        4       deposition or declaration that referred to DivX 

        5       and wanted to find out a little bit about it.

        6            Q.    When did you first get involved in this 

        7       case?

        8            A.    It was very near the end of June.  I 

        9       forget the exact day.

       10            Q.    And how did that come to occur?

       11            A.    Someone from the firm was visiting 

       12       Andrew Appel, who was going to be deposed, Ed 

       13       Hernstadt, and he was at Princeton.  The subject 

       14       of networking must have come up because Andrew 

       15       brought him by my office.  I saw him for five 

       16       minutes.

       17            Q.    Okay.  And you talked with 

       18       Mr. Hernstadt during that five minutes?

       19            A.    Yes.

       20            Q.    And he talked to you?

       21            A.    Yes.

       22            Q.    Can you give us the gist of that 

       23       conversation?

       24            A.    He said something to the effect that he 

       25       was involved in a case, and the issue of network 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       capabilities had come up, did I know anything 

        3       about networking or what did I know about 

        4       networking.

        5            Q.    And what did you say?

        6            A.    I said I do research in that area, I 

        7       teach in that area, I wrote a book in that area.  

        8       I know a little bit about it.

        9            Q.    Now you recently revised your book.  Is 

       10       that right?

       11            A.    That's right.

       12            Q.    And the revised edition was published 

       13       in October of '99.  Is that correct?

       14            A.    That's correct.

       15            Q.    And how extensive was that revised 

       16       edition compared -- how extensive were the 

       17       revisions in the revised edition, if you will, 

       18       compared to the first edition?

       19            A.    We estimated, my coauthor and I 

       20       estimated that we changed about a third of it.

       21            Q.    Okay.  And can you tell me, in general, 

       22       what the subject matters of the changes were?

       23            A.    If I had a copy in front of me, I could 

       24       thumb through and give you a better answer here.

       25            Q.    You don't have a copy of your book with 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       you; do you?

        3            A.    No, I don't.

        4                  MR. HART:  Mr. Garbus, I had requested 

        5       one.  I don't know if defendants --

        6                  MR. GARBUS:  And you can buy it.  The 

        7       only copy that I have in my office is a copy with 

        8       my notes on it.  If you want to continue the 

        9       deposition to some other day, which I don't think 

       10       you want to do, we will certainly get it for you.  

       11       It's also orderable on Amazon.  It's orderable on 

       12       several networks.  I don't know what else to tell 

       13       you.

       14                  THE WITNESS:  I can give you a -- so, 

       15       as I sit here thinking a little bit more, I can 

       16       say a little bit more, if it would help. 

       17            Q.    Sure.

       18            A.    Mostly we did two things to the second 

       19       edition.  One, we took out a specific piece of 

       20       software that caused people not to adopt the book 

       21       because they were afraid they had to use our 

       22       software to use the book.  We had used a system 

       23       that my research group had developed over the 

       24       years to implement network protocols as an 

       25       illustrative technique, so we had used little 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       snippets of software throughout the book, and 

        3       people were under the impression that they had to 

        4       adopt my software to use the book, that the book 

        5       would be useless to them otherwise.  So, we 

        6       changed how we did the software in the book.

        7                  And the second thing we did --

        8            Q.    Wait.  Let's stop right there.  What 

        9       software did you then refer to in the book?

       10            A.    Well, this was mostly a matter of 

       11       removing a chapter that described the software 

       12       system.  We left all the code fragments as they 

       13       were except making very small changes to make it a 

       14       little bit more generic.

       15            Q.    Okay.  I'm sorry to interrupt you.  Go 

       16       ahead.

       17            A.    The second major change is that we 

       18       focused a little bit more on applications that we 

       19       had originally, some applications of the 

       20       protocols.

       21            Q.    If you could explain that?

       22            A.    Well, as I recall now, we included a 

       23       little bit of information about a protocol that 

       24       is, in fact, used to deliver video and audio over 

       25       the Internet.



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            Q.    And what is that protocol?

        3            A.    That protocol is called RTP.

        4            Q.    What does RTP stand for?

        5            A.    RTP stands for real-time protocol.

        6            Q.    Is that used for streaming video 

        7       content over the Net?

        8            A.    Yes.

        9            Q.    Is it also used to transmit content for 

       10       downloading by the recipient?

       11            A.    If by "downloading" you mean pulling a 

       12       file across the network which contains a video so 

       13       that I can play it as opposed to streaming where 

       14       the video is arriving as I'm watching it, it's not 

       15       used for downloading.

       16            Q.    Got it.  Now, does streaming save 

       17       network resources in terms of consuming bandwidth 

       18       time and space?

       19            A.    No.

       20                  MR. GARBUS:  Object to the question. 

       21                  MR. HART:  Let me mark as Exhibit 3 

       22       what I'll show you in a moment, after the reporter 

       23       marks it.

       24                  (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 3 is marked for 

       25       identification.)



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            Q.    I ask you if you can identify what 

        3       we've just marked as Exhibit 3, Professor.

        4            A.    This is the table of contents of my 

        5       book pulled off the publisher's web site.  I'm 

        6       just trying to verify that it's the second 

        7       edition.  And it is.

        8            Q.    Based on a quick review of Exhibit 3, 

        9       are there any other --

       10                  MR. GARBUS:  May I have a copy?

       11                  MR. HART:  You do.  You were talking on 

       12       the cell phone when I gave it to you.

       13            Q.    Based on your review of Exhibit 3, are 

       14       there any other areas of subject matters of your 

       15       book that were changed or updated between the 

       16       first and second editions?

       17            A.    Well, there were certainly small 

       18       updates throughout.  So, I'll just focus on the 

       19       bigger stuff. 

       20                  Section 2.8 on wireless was new.  

       21       Actually, if you look closely, the changes are 

       22       there.

       23            Q.    How so?

       24            A.    The boxes.  The publisher included the 

       25       changes so that adopters could see what had 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       changed.

        3            Q.    When you say "adopters," what do you 

        4       mean?

        5            A.    The book is primarily targeted as a 

        6       textbook, so universities will adopt it.

        7            Q.    Is this a basic text?  Is it an 

        8       advanced text?

        9            A.    This is used either in upper division, 

       10       senior level, undergrad classes or graduate 

       11       classes.  So it is for more advanced students.

       12            Q.    It is for more advanced students?

       13            A.    It is for advanced students, but it's 

       14       typically the first class they've taken in 

       15       networking.

       16            Q.    Now, a little bit earlier I had asked 

       17       you about different kinds of networks, and I 

       18       believe you had talked about telecommunications as 

       19       an example, you talked about the Internet as one 

       20       big network, I believe.  I would like to get a 

       21       little bit more specific in terms of the different 

       22       kinds of networks that currently exist. 

       23                  For example, tell me what you know 

       24       about the network or networks at Princeton, just 

       25       to use an illustration.



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2                  MR. GARBUS:  Let me just object to 

        3       these questions.  I will not stop the witness from 

        4       answering.  Basically, what Mr. Hart is doing is 

        5       using this as a lecture so that he can understand 

        6       the situation involved in the case, that he is not 

        7       asking questions about the witness's testimony, 

        8       although I'm sure he will claim that it's 

        9       relevant.  The witness is here for a specific 

       10       purpose, which is to deal with the issues raised 

       11       in his affidavit and not to bring Mr. Hart up to 

       12       date either by furnishing his books or a general 

       13       lecture on how the Internet works, presumable 

       14       Mr. Hart knows that or can get it from his own 

       15       witnesses.

       16                  MR. HART:  Thank you, Mr. Garbus.  I'm 

       17       sorry for the interruption.

       18            Q.    The question was:  Tell me about 

       19       Princeton's network or networks as an illustrative 

       20       example.

       21            A.    Princeton -- a typical campus will have 

       22       a campus backbone which connects the buildings.  

       23       Each building is then typically wired with a local 

       24       area network or a collection of local area 

       25       networks.  Princeton, in the computer science 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       department, we primarily have a 100-megabit 

        3       ethernet within the department into every office.  

        4       We have a smattering of 1-gigabit lengths; those 

        5       are still typically used for research and not part 

        6       of our production network.  We are then connected 

        7       to the campus backbone, as all the other 

        8       departments are.  I believe Princeton's campus is 

        9       still in the 100 megabit neighborhood.

       10            Q.    When you say "still," you're suggesting 

       11       that that's been superseded?

       12            A.    That's a little -- "still" as in that's 

       13       potentially upgradeable in the not too distant 

       14       future.  I don't know any specifics, but.

       15            Q.    Potentially upgradeable to what?

       16            A.    155 megabits, possibly a 622 megabits, 

       17       those are some of the next steps that are 

       18       sometimes taken.  I actually have no specific 

       19       knowledge of what the backbone at Princeton is in 

       20       detail.

       21            Q.    Or its plans to grade it in the near 

       22       future?

       23            A.    Or its plans to upgrade. 

       24                  So, generically, 100-megabit, 

       25       10-megabit ethernet are the two chief technologies 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       within a campus.

        3            Q.    And is that true with respect to dorm 

        4       rooms and other facilities within the campus where 

        5       students have access to the networks?

        6            A.    It is typically the case that the dorms 

        7       are a little behind what would generally be 

        8       available.  I do happen to know that Princeton's 

        9       dorms are connected by 10-megabit ethernet.  At 

       10       the current time, each dorm share one 10-megabit 

       11       amongst all the students in that dorm.  So we're 

       12       talking in the neighborhood of 200 students 

       13       sharing a 10-megabit ethernet.

       14            Q.    And that's for an entire dorm building 

       15       or per floor?

       16            A.    I believe that's dorm, but I couldn't 

       17       say for sure. 

       18            Q.    Apart from the declaration which we've 

       19       marked as Exhibit 2, have you prepared any 

       20       materials in connection with your involvement in 

       21       this case?  By "materials," I mean whether it's in 

       22       the form of an English writing or computer 

       23       software or demonstrations or anything like that?

       24            A.    I worked through some numbers of how 

       25       long it would take to transmit a file if given 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       different technologies.  That's all I've done.

        3            Q.    And when you say you "worked through 

        4       some numbers," how did you do that?  On a 

        5       computer?  On a notepad with a pen?

        6            A.    Basically, for my own collecting my 

        7       thoughts, wrote or just typed it into a file the 

        8       numbers, used a calculator to make sure I had the 

        9       numbers right, and stated what my assumptions 

       10       were.

       11            Q.    And do you have that document with you 

       12       here today?

       13            A.    No, I do not.

       14            Q.    Can you access it from a computer?

       15            A.    Yes, I should be able to.

       16            Q.    Can we take a break and let me ask you 

       17       to get on-line here and hook up to your computer 

       18       in your office or wherever this data is resident 

       19       and get me a copy of your notes?

       20            A.    That's fine.

       21                  MR. GARBUS:  Well, I would get a copy 

       22       of the notes, if you can, and I will see it first 

       23       before he sees it, and then I will see whether or 

       24       not there are any objections with respect to it.  

       25       You and I will discuss it.



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2                  THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Off the record at 

        3       10:53. 

        4                  (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

        5                  THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Back on the record 

        6       at 11:00.

        7                  MR. HART:  We took a quick break to see 

        8       if Professor Peterson could locate his notes. 

        9       There were some technical difficulties which my 

       10       information specialist is going to try and help 

       11       on, and we're going to try and proceed now.  We 

       12       may get interrupted.

       13                  MR. GARBUS:  And what happens then?  

       14       Professor Peterson goes back to the machine and 

       15       tries to get the document?

       16                  MR. HART:  Well, Marty, I haven't 

       17       figured out the mechanics of it.

       18                  MR. GARBUS:  In other words, we see the 

       19       document before you see the document.

       20                  MR. HART:  Marty, I'm not going to see 

       21       it before you see it.  Okay?  Let's proceed, 

       22       Professor.  Sorry for the interruption.

       23            Q.    Can you tell me, to the best of your 

       24       recollection, as you sit here right now, what 

       25       kinds of assumptions you made in the calculations 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       you were describing.

        3            A.    I had assumed that we were going to do 

        4       a large file transfer independent of its content.

        5            Q.    And how large a file?

        6            A.    I did the math for both 6 gigabytes and 

        7       650 megabytes.

        8            Q.    Okay.

        9            A.    I assumed for first calculations --

       10            Q.    By the way, I'm sorry to interrupt you, 

       11       what's the relative size difference between those 

       12       two files that you mentioned?

       13            A.    It's a factor of 10 in order of 

       14       magnitude.

       15            Q.    Okay.  Go ahead.

       16            A.    And how long that would take on a 

       17       1-megabit-per-second link using 1 megabit as an 

       18       example of what one might have into the home. 

       19                  My recollection is the numbers worked 

       20       out that the 6-gigabyte file took 11 hours and the 

       21       650 megabytes took a tenth of that, it was an hour 

       22       and a half or something, an hour 20 minutes.

       23            Q.    So, does that mean that if one had a 

       24       650-megabyte file using the type of Internet 

       25       bandwidth that one might find in a home that one 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       could effectively transfer that entire file in how 

        3       long?

        4                  MR. GARBUS:  I'll object if there are 

        5       any other variables.

        6            A.    So, what I said was how fast could you 

        7       download at one megabit per second.

        8            Q.    Right.

        9            A.    And I had came up with the number 1 

       10       megabit because that is an example of what people 

       11       are claiming you can do into the home.

       12            Q.    Okay.  And how long did that take 

       13       again?

       14            A.    An hour 20 minutes, an hour and a half, 

       15       I forget exactly.

       16            Q.    Wouldn't you say that that's a fair 

       17       reflection of file transfer time for a file of 

       18       that size over a network connection of that size?

       19                  MR. GARBUS:  I'll object to the 

       20       question.

       21            A.    Depends.

       22            Q.    All right.  What are the factors?

       23            A.    The factors are do I actually get the 

       24       whole megabit.  Let's suppose that I have 1 

       25       megabit into my home, that's what's been 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       advertised to me.  I'm only going to achieve that 

        3       if I can, in fact, get the 1 megabit from where 

        4       the data started into my home.  So, I know that 

        5       the last piece runs at 1 megabit, the Internet is 

        6       in the middle, and there's going to be the -- what 

        7       would be called the upload or uplink at the other 

        8       end, the connection at the other side as into the 

        9       Internet.  So, if that were a megabit and I could 

       10       get a whole megabit through the Internet and I 

       11       could get a megabit across that last link into my 

       12       home, then I could do it in that time.

       13            Q.    Did you actually run that as an 

       14       experiment?

       15            A.    I measured -- no, I did not do that as 

       16       an experiment.

       17            Q.    Now, were there any other scenarios 

       18       that you postulated in --

       19            A.    So, another scenario is that the uplink 

       20       wasn't a megabit.  And I thought about that 

       21       scenario a little bit because much of the 

       22       technology out there, cable modem in particular, 

       23       ADSL is a second example, are asymmetric, and I 

       24       upload at different speed than I can download.

       25            Q.    Higher or lower?



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            A.    Much lower, quite a bit lower.

        3                  (Whereupon, the requested portion of 

        4       the testimony is read back by the reporter.)

        5                  (Whereupon, a discussion takes place 

        6       off the record.)

        7            Q.    What was the outcome of your 

        8       contemplating that scenario?

        9            A.    I reran the numbers again for 128 

       10       kilobits as an example of what an uplink might be.

       11            Q.    Using both a 6-gig file and a 650-meg 

       12       file?

       13            A.    That's right, and that's an order of 

       14       magnitude less bandwidth and so you would multiply 

       15       those times by roughly 10 to get the total 

       16       transfer time.

       17            Q.    Any other scenarios that you had 

       18       contemplated?

       19            A.    If you had 10 megabits, so going in the 

       20       other direction, instead of 1 megabit if you had 

       21       10 megabits, then you would basically divide the 

       22       time by 10.

       23            Q.    Okay.  Which means that our 

       24       hypothetical 650-meg size file over a 10-meg 

       25       Internet connection would yield us what in terms 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       of transfer time?

        3                  MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question. 

        4            A.    So, let me be clear that I am, at this 

        5       point, just doing the math.  "If" I can get 10 

        6       megabits, "if" I can get 100 megabits, whatever 

        7       the number is.

        8            Q.    And I'm asking you what your math 

        9       yielded based on the assumption that you had a 

       10       10-megabit Internet connection?

       11            A.    If you had a 10-megabit link to the 

       12       data, it would transfer -- the 6 gigabytes would 

       13       transfer in an hour, roughly.

       14            Q.    Right.  And the 650-meg file?

       15            A.    In a tenth of an hour, six minutes.

       16            Q.    Six minutes.

       17            A.    Well, it would be 10 minutes, in there 

       18       somewhere, because it was a little more than an 

       19       hour before.

       20            Q.    Okay.  Did you study, contemplate, or 

       21       do the math for any other scenarios?

       22            A.    Not that I recall.

       23            Q.    Have we just exhausted, to the best of 

       24       your recollection, the content of the notes that 

       25       you referred to a moment ago?



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            A.    No.

        3            Q.    What else was in there?

        4            A.    So, the chief other point made that I 

        5       jotted down in my notes is that looking just at 

        6       the uplink speed or the downlink speed was a 

        7       little simplistic because the Internet is going to 

        8       be in the middle.  And it's quite likely that the 

        9       speed that you see would be limited by what the 

       10       Internet could deliver.

       11            Q.    Can you give me what your fair 

       12       approximation is of how that would factor into 

       13       these numbers?

       14            A.    It's very difficult to say.  And the 

       15       reason is the Internet is a shared resource and 

       16       millions of people are using it constantly, and 

       17       the rate that you see at any given time depends on 

       18       exactly what set of links the data had to traverse 

       19       and what other users were using that.  So, it's 

       20       difficult to say.

       21            Q.    When you say "what set of links," are 

       22       links the same as hops?

       23            A.    Sure.

       24            Q.    Can you give me an average for the 

       25       average Internet connection, number of hops?



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            A.    I'm not sure if I can give you an 

        3       average, but you tend to see 10 to 16 hops between 

        4       source and destination.  That's not untypical.

        5            Q.    And in terms of traffic, which I 

        6       believe you said was another variable when you're 

        7       looking at the Internet in the middle, are there, 

        8       in your experience, ways to optimize the speed or 

        9       time which it takes to send something in light of 

       10       traffic problems?

       11                  MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

       12       question.  It's not understandable.

       13                  MR. HART:  Do you -- I can rephrase it 

       14       if you don't understand it.

       15                  THE WITNESS:  Let's try it again.

       16            Q.    Given what you said about traffic on 

       17       the Internet as another variable, are there ways 

       18       to optimize delivery time in light of such 

       19       traffic, and if so, what ways are there?

       20                  MR. GARBUS:  You say other ways to 

       21       optimize?  Excuse me, go ahead.

       22            A.    There's two possible solutions to the 

       23       traffic.  This problem is often called congestion, 

       24       it's exactly the kind of thing you experience on 

       25       the road.



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            Q.    Right.

        3            A.    And either you have a -- shall I stop 

        4       here? 

        5                  (Whereupon, a discussion takes place 

        6       off the record.)

        7                  (Whereupon, the answer is read back by 

        8       the reporter.)

        9                  THE WITNESS:  I do an analogy to the 

       10       congestion on the roadways.

       11                  MR. HART:  Okay.  We'll just continue 

       12       from there.

       13                  THE WITNESS:  Could we go ahead and do 

       14       this.  I've already --

       15                  MR. HART:  You've switched gears.

       16                  THE WITNESS:  I've already switched 

       17       gears. 

       18                  MR. HART:  Okay.  Sure.  Then we'll 

       19       stop.  And I apologize for the distraction. 

       20                  THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Off the record, 

       21       11:10.

       22                  THE WITNESS:  It's on my account I need 

       23       to tell it to my account so I can put it 

       24                  TECHNICAL PERSON:  It's on a local PC?  

       25                  THE WITNESS:  It's on the Net.  I need 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       some way of remotely logging into it.  The file is 

        3       not in a place that's accessible from the web.

        4                  MR. HART:  I don't -- I want to go off 

        5       the record at this point.

        6                  MR. GARBUS:  I insist that we stay on 

        7       the record.

        8                  MR. HART:  I don't know what the point 

        9       of this is.  I think this should be off the 

       10       record.  It's my deposition. 

       11                  MR. GARBUS:  I would like this on the 

       12       record.  He had no idea.

       13                  MR. HART:  I resent your slighting me, 

       14       and I ask you to apologize.  I think it's totally 

       15       unnecessary.

       16                  MR. GARBUS:  I apologize for saying you 

       17       know nothing.

       18                  MR. HART:  I think it's rude and 

       19       unprofessional and a lawyer of your stature should 

       20       help me because you didn't bring what you should 

       21       have to the deposition. 

       22                  THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Back on the record, 

       23       11:13.

       24                  MR. HART:  We were interrupted to see 

       25       if we could retrieve this document from your 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       computer at Princeton, and apparently it's 

        3       complicated, and I don't want to belabor this 

        4       anymore, so I just want to proceed with the 

        5       deposition.  So, we're going to kind of shift 

        6       gears back to the questioning.

        7                  (Whereupon, the last question is read 

        8       back by the reporter.)

        9            A.    So you can do one of two things.  One 

       10       is you can add more capacity.  It's like adding 

       11       additional lanes, I suppose, and that's typically 

       12       how these problems are solved, more users come on 

       13       to the Internet, they get higher speed links, you 

       14       have to add more capacity at the backbone. 

       15                  The second possibility is that you give 

       16       some traffic preferential treatment, that one 

       17       packet is somehow more important, so you create a 

       18       carpool lane, to continue the analogy.  That sort 

       19       of technology is in I would call the research 

       20       stages right now, people are trying to understand 

       21       how to do that.  The problem is complex because 

       22       it's a huge distributed network.

       23            Q.    "It" being the Internet?

       24            A.    "It" being the Internet.  And 

       25       coordinating that sort of agreement that this is 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       an important packet across all those hops is a 

        3       very difficult problem.

        4            Q.    Is there a third solution, to borrow 

        5       from your road traffic analogy, and that is don't 

        6       drive at rush hour?

        7            A.    Certainly, don't drive at rush hour.

        8            Q.    In your experience, is that often how 

        9       users get around network traffic problems, they 

       10       choose to send data over the Internet at off 

       11       hours?

       12            A.    I can't say in my experience because I 

       13       don't typically send data at off hours.

       14            Q.    If there is network congestion because 

       15       of the intervention of the Internet as part of the 

       16       series of links or hops that you described, and 

       17       someone attempts to send packets of data and 

       18       congestion is slowing that down, does that data 

       19       get queued or sort of stored someplace until it 

       20       can get fully transmitted through the process?

       21            A.    The way the Internet works, the sender, 

       22       the software running at the source of the data, is 

       23       paced by the receiver's successful receipt of 

       24       data, and basically the data then is buffered back 

       25       at the sender.  It's just not transmitted until 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       the sender has detected there's enough capacity.

        3            Q.    And are there other technological ways 

        4       that are employed to buffer the data in between 

        5       the sender and receiver to take account of 

        6       congestion?

        7            A.    Not data now.  We're now dealing with 

        8       packets.

        9            Q.    Okay.

       10            A.    Individual packets are queued at the 

       11       routers -- at each hop along the Internet, but 

       12       that's very limited how much is queued there.  

       13       It's just temporary storage until the link becomes 

       14       accessible.  So, we're dealing in milliseconds of 

       15       time. 

       16            Q.    I see.  Now, taking all of that into 

       17       account in terms of what you know and what you're 

       18       prepared to testify to under oath in connection 

       19       with this case, can you give me any fair estimates 

       20       of -- and they could be in a range from low to 

       21       high -- of the transfer time involved when one is 

       22       transferring a file the size of a 650-meg file 

       23       over the Internet?

       24            A.    If a single person wants to transmit a 

       25       650-megabyte file, so we're not talking about now 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       the whole world is also transferring 650-megabyte 

        3       files, it could take anywhere from two to ten 

        4       times what you thought based on your end, your 

        5       last link that you should have seen.  So, if you 

        6       had a megabit, you might get a tenth of -- 

        7       somewhere between a half and a tenth of that in 

        8       practice.

        9            Q.    Just so the record is clear here, could 

       10       you state that rather than as a fraction of the 

       11       lead time, then just express it in terms of hours 

       12       or minutes?

       13            A.    So, back to the 650 megabytes -- so if 

       14       I have a 1-megabit link into my home and I'm 

       15       transferring 650 megabits, that would, at a 

       16       megabit, take, let's say the number, and again I'm 

       17       approximating here, an hour and 20 minutes, then 

       18       that take anywhere from two hours and 40 minutes 

       19       to ten hours.

       20            Q.    Gotcha.

       21            A.    And that's actually presuming that in 

       22       that time the connection didn't die for some 

       23       reason, which is also a possibility.  It's a long 

       24       time, much longer than connections typically are 

       25       asked to stay alive transferring data.



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            Q.    Is it common practice to your 

        3       experience to break such files into even smaller 

        4       file sizes to make them smaller and to make them 

        5       transfer faster.  So, take your 650-megabyte file, 

        6       cutting it in half, for example, and sending it in 

        7       two pieces, is that another way to optimize -- 

        8            A.    That is done.  That doesn't optimize 

        9       anything except helping you survive the 

       10       possibility that the link failed during any one 

       11       transfer. 

       12            Q.    Now, you said a few minutes ago that 

       13       that assumes one transfer occurring at a given 

       14       point in time, but that it doesn't account for 

       15       everyone in the whole world transferring the same 

       16       size file at the same time.

       17            A.    That's right.

       18            Q.    I would just like to spend a few 

       19       minutes on that subject, if you would.

       20                  Are there congestion problems on the 

       21       Internet today?

       22            A.    Yes.

       23            Q.    And is that attributed to the fact that 

       24       there are a lot of people sending and receiving 

       25       stuff all over the world?



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            A.    Absolutely.

        3            Q.    Do we have any idea how many millions 

        4       of people are on the Internet at a given time?

        5            A.    There are all kinds of estimates, 30 or 

        6       40 million maybe.

        7            Q.    At any one point?

        8            A.    Oh, I'm sorry.  At any given point int 

        9       time?  I've never heard a number like that. 

       10                  MR. HART:  Okay, Marty, I'm going ask 

       11       you to stop playing with your cell phone.

       12                  MR. GARBUS:  Well, will you just give 

       13       me a moment so that I can call my office?

       14                  MR. HART:  Well, you know -- sure I'll 

       15       give you a moment to call your office.

       16                  MR. GARBUS:  Just let the record 

       17       indicate that it relates to scheduling the 

       18       Marshall King deposition because -- 

       19                  MR. HART:  One of the reasons why we're 

       20       taking so long is because you keep doing 

       21       distracting things, including making telephone 

       22       calls while we're on the record in the course of 

       23       testimony.

       24                  MR. GARBUS:  I have no objection to you 

       25       continuing the deposition right now.



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2                  MR. HART:  It's distracting and it's 

        3       inappropriate and I've complained about it before.

        4                  (Whereupon, a discussion takes place 

        5       off the record.)

        6                  MR. HART:  Are we ready to resume, Mr. 

        7       Garbus?

        8                  MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

        9                  MR. HART:  I would prefer in the 

       10       future, I don't want to get into arguments with 

       11       you, Marty, but if you need to make a telephone 

       12       call, just indicate for the record that you are 

       13       going to do that and step out and we'll stop the 

       14       deposition, because I find it very distracting  

       15       for you to be pressing things that make beeping 

       16       noises while I'm trying to ask the witness a 

       17       question or think about his answer.  Thank you. 

       18            Q.    So, we don't have an estimate of, to 

       19       your knowledge -- 

       20            A.    I can't say that I've ever heard an 

       21       estimate like that.

       22            Q.    Is there anything else that you 

       23       postulated, considered, or analyzed mathematically 

       24       or otherwise in connection with your testimony in 

       25       this case?



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            A.    You're talking specifically about my 

        3       notes? 

        4            Q.    Well, let's finish the notes first.  

        5       Have we exhausted what you think was in your 

        6       notes?

        7            A.    I'm pretty sure we've exhausted that.

        8            Q.    Now, leaving aside the notes, are there 

        9       any other scenarios that you contemplated or 

       10       assumptions that you made where you did math or 

       11       calculations or projections that relate to 

       12       testimony that you may give in connection with 

       13       this case?

       14            A.    I gave some thought to the possibility 

       15       of 650 megabyte or 6-gigabyte transfers being 

       16       commonplace and what kind of stress that would put 

       17       on the Internet. 

       18                  One of the things I did in relation to 

       19       that was look at what was available on the web 

       20       today.  In particular I went to the @Home web 

       21       site.  @Home is a company that sells cable modem 

       22       service, one of the first to do that.  @Home is 

       23       now teamed with Excite, which is a web portal, I 

       24       guess you could say. 

       25                  And at the @Home page, they were 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       bragging about "Get @Home and you can download all 

        3       of this wonderful content.  See Excite."  So, I 

        4       went to the Excite page and looked around and I 

        5       found some high-end data.

        6            Q.    When you say "high-end data," what do 

        7       you mean?

        8            A.    By "high-end data" I simply mean it was 

        9       video, audio, their high resolution, their good 

       10       stuff.  In fact, they had several grades, as I 

       11       recall, that you could download this -- this high 

       12       resolution thing or if you don't have enough 

       13       capacity, you could download this low resolution 

       14       thing.  So, looking at the high resolution, the 

       15       biggest file that I could find was 8 megabytes, 

       16       approximately. 

       17                  So, I interpreted that as buy cable 

       18       modem and you, too, can download 8-megabyte files.  

       19       That is all the bigger they put up, and the reason 

       20       I believe that's the case is that if everyone 

       21       started downloading 8 megabytes or larger than 8 

       22       megabytes, they would have trouble in the 

       23       backbone.

       24            Q.    "They" being?

       25            A.    @Home or whoever the service provider 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       is.

        3            Q.    Gotcha. 

        4            A.    So, I conclude from that, that 8 

        5       megabytes is what one might, as a high-end user, 

        6       get off the Internet today, and that's consistent 

        7       with what I've seen elsewhere as well.  We're 

        8       basically talking two orders of magnitude to get 

        9       to 650 megabytes, a factor of 100. 

       10                  So, one conclusion you can draw from 

       11       that is it's going to take something on the order 

       12       or two orders of magnitude improvement in the 

       13       Internet's infrastructure to make 650-megabyte 

       14       transfers as possible as 8 megabytes is today.

       15            Q.    Do you know how big an MP3 audio file 

       16       of a song or of a record album is in file size?

       17            A.    About a megabyte a minute, so 3 or 4 

       18       megabytes.

       19            Q.    That's for a single song?

       20            A.    I believe so.

       21            Q.    And an album would be, what, a function 

       22       10 times that if we assume 10 songs are on an 

       23       album?

       24            A.    Sure.

       25            Q.    Are you familiar with Napster as a 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       phenomenon?

        3            A.    I am.

        4            Q.    Has Napster contributed, to your 

        5       knowledge, to system congestion on the Internet?

        6            A.    I can't say whether it has or not.

        7            Q.    Are you aware of any universities or 

        8       colleges that have banned Napster because it has 

        9       overloaded their services?

       10            A.    I saw stories in the press, nothing 

       11       first hand.

       12            Q.    Hasn't happened at Princeton, for 

       13       example?

       14            A.    They have not banned Napster at 

       15       Princeton.

       16            Q.    Do you know if you have a Napster 

       17       problem at Princeton?

       18            A.    I don't know.

       19            Q.    Do you have any idea of the volume of 

       20       so-called file-sharing activity taking place on 

       21       the Internet today involving MP3 music files, like 

       22       how many users and how many files are exchanged? 

       23            A.    I haven't seen any numbers like that.

       24            Q.    Is it immense, to your knowledge?

       25            A.    My impression is that it's not immense, 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       but I couldn't say for sure. 

        3            Q.    What do you base that impression on, 

        4       sir?

        5            A.    How I haven't heard within the Internet 

        6       research community, the people thinking about the 

        7       new problems cropping up, Napster being a 

        8       particular problem.  Or I should say Napster being 

        9       singled out as a particular problem.

       10            Q.    Leaving aside Napster, same question 

       11       generally with respect to MP3 audio so-called file 

       12       sharing as a problem, have you --

       13            A.    Not that I've heard of. 

       14                  Reflecting on that, make sure that I'm 

       15       being specific enough here, that's in reference to 

       16       the Internet as a whole or a particular campus? 

       17            Q.    I understood that your testimony 

       18       related to the Internet as a whole.  Is that how 

       19       you meant your testimony?

       20            A.    Yes. 

       21            Q.    Is there any kind of number or figure 

       22       that you can give me as an approximation which 

       23       would indicate the saturation point for the 

       24       Internet in terms of the number of files or the 

       25       amount of files, the amount of users sharing 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       certain amount of files that would cause the 

        3       Internet to reach saturation?

        4            A.    I'm not sure what you mean by 

        5       "saturation."  One way to look at it is that the 

        6       Internet is today as big as it needs to be, has 

        7       the capacity that it needs to have.  And because 

        8       it's expensive to put these facilities in, it's no 

        9       bigger than it needs to be.  Which is to say it's 

       10       running very near saturation.  Incrementally, 

       11       things get add -- capacity gets added and then it 

       12       gets consumed and it gets added, it gets consumed.  

       13       So, we're always running near full capacity with 

       14       the current facilities.

       15            Q.    But things still manage to get through.  

       16       Right?

       17            A.    Eventually.

       18            Q.    Let's turn to campus life for a couple 

       19       of minutes and talk now about the kinds of 

       20       networks that exist on a college campus like 

       21       Princeton's, and I'm going to have several 

       22       questions about that. 

       23                  First, is it fair to treat such a 

       24       system as sort of a closed system in the sense 

       25       that you don't need to make the Internet part of 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       the chain to transfer files from one computer on a 

        3       university network to another computer on a 

        4       university network?

        5            A.    You do not -- those files need not go 

        6       out into the Internet to do that.  They will pass 

        7       through a point within the campus that's connected 

        8       to both the Internet and the campus, so there is a 

        9       piece of equipment there, a router, that's the 

       10       bridge between the two. 

       11            Q.    Now, have you done any reflection, 

       12       studies, mathematical extrapolations of transfer 

       13       times based on a university system that does not 

       14       involve passing data through the Internet?

       15            A.    We did the 10 megabit number a little 

       16       earlier, which is reflective of what one might 

       17       find on the campus.

       18            Q.    Have you done any studies, mathematical 

       19       calculations, or contemplated what the load factor 

       20       would be, if that's a word, on the campus network 

       21       if people were transferring 650-meg files on that 

       22       network?

       23            A.    Well, not specifically.  If you have a 

       24       shared 10-megabit-per-second ethernet, then the 

       25       numbers we talked about earlier for 10 megabits 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       will apply if only one person is doing it and you 

        3       will get in the ballpark of half of that if two 

        4       people are trying to transfer at the same time and 

        5       so on.

        6            Q.    So, just, again, to be clear, I'm sorry 

        7       to be painstaking about this, I need to make the 

        8       record, this is assuming people are transferring 

        9       the 650-meg file at the same time or 

       10       simultaneously.  Right?

       11            A.    Right.

       12            Q.    And if, as you said, 10 people are 

       13       doing it, you would get an effective transfer time 

       14       that looked more like the 1-megabit connection in 

       15       that scenario. 

       16            A.    The first approximation, yes. 

       17            Q.    Now, aside from shared networks, is it 

       18       also common to have switch networks at university 

       19       campuses?

       20            A.    Yes.

       21            Q.    And does your answer, again, going back 

       22       to this hypothetical of one person over a 10-meg 

       23       line or 10 people over a 10-meg line, differ in 

       24       any way based on whether it's a shared network or 

       25       a switch network?



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            A.    Typically, the switch network -- I 

        3       have -- I'm the only one that can use the link 

        4       between my computer and the switch.  The switch is 

        5       now shared in the same way that the cable was 

        6       before.  So, I would have 10 megabits for my use 

        7       and all of the other people plugged into that 

        8       switch would have 10 megabits, in this example, 

        9       for their use.  It's possible there's still 

       10       contention on the switch.

       11            Q.    I'm sorry, it's possible there's 

       12       still --

       13            A.    Contention is still possible, so let me 

       14       just --

       15            Q.    "Contention" is the word you used?

       16            A.    "Contention" is the word I used.  This 

       17       is what happens when multiple people share the 

       18       same link or switch. 

       19            Q.    Okay. 

       20            A.    So, if it's the case that -- it depends 

       21       on the extent to which these parties are operating 

       22       independently.  If it were to happen that one user 

       23       was providing data, and he has a 

       24       10-megabit-per-second link to the switch, and the 

       25       other nine users each had their own 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       10-megabit-per-second connection to the switch, 

        3       but they all wanted to download this one file, 

        4       then the link, that one 10-megabit link, even 

        5       though I'm the only one using it, connected to it, 

        6       would still be shared between all nine people 

        7       trying to download from it.

        8            Q.    But if there were a one-to-one 

        9       relationship between two 10-megabit switch users 

       10       on the network within the university, how many 

       11       different simultaneous one-to-one transfers could 

       12       be occurring given the university backbone?

       13            A.    So, in this simple scenario, we'll stay 

       14       with that for now, A could talk to B and C could 

       15       talk to D and those would be independent of each 

       16       other. 

       17            Q.    Correct.

       18            A.    That will typically depend on how many 

       19       users I could connect to that one switch, so a 

       20       common switch is maybe 16, 32, 64 ports, 

       21       independent connections.  There still, depending 

       22       on how the system is architected, the possibility 

       23       of contention within the switch.  It may, in fact, 

       24       not have the capacity to simultaneously switch 64 

       25       connections because the designs engineered it in 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       such a way that they didn't expect that to happen. 

        3            Q.    And we're talking about people with 

        4       10-meg connections right now in this scenario?

        5            A.    Right.

        6            Q.    And just remind me again, I'm not 

        7       trying to be difficult here, I know you answered 

        8       it, but I just forgot the answer, what is the file 

        9       transfer time of a 650-meg file over a 10-megabit 

       10       connection?

       11            A.    650 megabytes at 10 megabits was 

       12       somewhere between 6 and 10 minutes.

       13            Q.    Okay, fine.  So, is it fair to say that 

       14       it's at least theoretically possible on a switch 

       15       network with, I believe what you said was, up to 

       16       64 ports for our example, that you could have 64 

       17       different simultaneous transmissions of that 

       18       hypothetical 650-meg file occurring, assuming 

       19       there were no contention problems at the switch?

       20            A.    It is possible. 

       21            Q.    Okay.

       22            A.    I'm sorry, 32 because -- 

       23            Q.    Sending and receiving.

       24            A.    Yeah, right.

       25            Q.    Okay.  So, in that scenario, we would 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       be contemplating 32 effective file transfers of a 

        3       650-meg file within roughly 6 to 10 minutes?

        4                  MR. GARBUS:  In a theoretical concept.

        5            A.    It's possible.

        6            Q.    And if that were being done, would that 

        7       overload the university network?

        8            A.    It would completely saturate that 

        9       portion of the network.

       10            Q.    And when you say "that portion," we're 

       11       talking about in relation to those computers 

       12       hooked up to that network talking to each other at 

       13       the same time?

       14            A.    That particular switch.  There are more 

       15       than 64 users within a university.  So, the 

       16       university has switches connected not just to end 

       17       users but to other switches and to other switches 

       18       still.  So, depending on how isolated this 

       19       particular load was, it might totally load one 

       20       switch.  It may not impact the rest of the campus, 

       21       possibly. 

       22            Q.    And that problem could be meliorated in 

       23       a number of ways.  Right?  For example, we don't 

       24       necessarily have to have 32 senders and 32 users 

       25       sending a 650-meg file simultaneously on the same 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       switch network.  Right?  It could be fewer users 

        3       and fewer senders?

        4            A.    Certainly could be fewer, right.

        5                  MR. GARBUS:  Just note my objection 

        6       that we're continuing to talk about theoretical. 

        7       And I think it would be helpful if you phrase that 

        8       each time in your question so that we don't lose 

        9       sight of it in the transcript.  

       10            Q.    And it would also meliorate the 

       11       situation if we took the 650-meg file and cut it 

       12       in half so that we're dealing with two packages 

       13       rather than one larger one?

       14            A.    Not really, because I still -- assuming 

       15       that I want to get the whole file, I still have to 

       16       transfer both of them.

       17            Q.    What if you added additional servers to 

       18       that mix, would that change your analysis in any 

       19       way?

       20            A.    That doesn't really change it because 

       21       I'm talking about sources.  Whether you call them 

       22       servers or they're students in their dorm rooms, 

       23       they're still the sources of the data.

       24            Q.    Now, have you done any real world tests 

       25       taking into account some of these file transfer 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       times that we've been talking about in a 

        3       university context?

        4            A.    In the context of this case since I've 

        5       been thinking about it? 

        6            Q.    Well, I'll take that as the first 

        7       question, sure. 

        8            A.    The only experiment I ran since hearing 

        9       about this case was to see how much I could get at 

       10       home off my DSL line.  So, I transferred 30-some 

       11       megabytes just to try it, and I got 1 megabit in 

       12       one direction and 2 megabits in the other 

       13       direction.  That's the only experiment I've run.  

       14       That was between my home and the department at the 

       15       other end.  So, I didn't go out on the Internet.  

       16       That was just into my office.

       17            Q.    And you're at 1 meg at home?

       18            A.    I downloaded at 2 meg, I uploaded at 1 

       19       meg.

       20            Q.    Do you recall what the file contained?  

       21       Was it audiovisual material?

       22            A.    It didn't matter.  I can't even recall 

       23       what it was now.

       24            Q.    Did you look at the result?

       25            A.    The result is guaranteed to be the same 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       that I transmitted.

        3            Q.    Are there any other areas that you have 

        4       considered for possible testimony in connection 

        5       with this case, and if so, what are they?

        6            A.    Are we talking areas now broader than 

        7       networking? 

        8            Q.    Either within the networking topic or 

        9       outside of the networking area.

       10            A.    I'm not sure what I am going to be 

       11       asked to testify on.  I mostly concentrated on 

       12       networking.

       13            Q.    And were you asked to consider any 

       14       other subjects outside of networking by Mr. Garbus 

       15       or his firm?

       16            A.    I think the only question I can recall 

       17       outside of that domain was if I knew anything 

       18       about Linux.

       19            Q.    Do you?

       20            A.    I use it on my desktop.  We use it in 

       21       my research lab.

       22            Q.    Have you ever used DeCSS?

       23            A.    No.

       24            Q.    Do you know what it is?

       25            A.    Yes.



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            Q.    How do know what it is.

        3            A.    Just through my own investigations 

        4       after having talked to Ed.

        5            Q.    And what did your investigations 

        6       consist of?

        7            A.    I think I got a pointer to crytome.org, 

        8       which I believe is posting some of the depositions 

        9       or declarations.  Went through those a little bit 

       10       but not in any detail.

       11            Q.    When you say you got a "pointer," what 

       12       do you mean?

       13            A.    It came up in conversation that there 

       14       was material relating to this case on crytome.org.

       15            Q.    Someone told you to go to crytome.org?

       16            A.    No.  It just came up in conversation 

       17       that -- I picked up in the conversation that this 

       18       was a place that had -- I didn't want to look 

       19       foolish not knowing anything about this case.

       20            Q.    I understand.  I didn't mean to sound 

       21       accusatory.  I was just trying to differentiate 

       22       between someone told you versus you found it 

       23       through a search engine.  When you said you got a 

       24       pointer, I didn't know it that was a term of art.  

       25       That's all. 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2                  Are you getting paid for your testimony 

        3       in this case?

        4            A.    No.

        5            Q.    And is it your intention to appear at 

        6       the trial in this case?

        7            A.    If I can schedule it, yes.

        8            Q.    Is there anything that you're aware of 

        9       presently that would impede your ability to appear 

       10       at the trial of this case?

       11            A.    I promised to take my kids to a Yankees 

       12       game on the 20th.

       13            Q.    And other than that?

       14            A.    Other than that, that's the only thing 

       15       I can think of.  I've got tickets.

       16            Q.    Now, back within the networking area, 

       17       are there any other subjects that you have 

       18       contemplated for possible testimony in this case 

       19       regarding networking, if I can use that term as 

       20       generally as possible, that we have not already 

       21       covered here today?

       22                  THE WITNESS:  Can I talk to Marty for a 

       23       second? 

       24                  MR. HART:  If you need to, sure.

       25                  THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Off the record, 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       11:33.

        3                  (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)

        4                  THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Back on the record, 

        5       11:43 a.m.

        6                  MR. HART:  Let the record reflect that 

        7       we're waiting for Mr. Garbus to get off the phone 

        8       even though he was summoned. 

        9                  (Whereupon, the last question is read 

       10       back by the reporter.)

       11            A.    So, the answer is the big question that 

       12       I've been thinking about in the last few days is 

       13       how practical is it to download 650-megabit files 

       14       or 6-gigabyte files over Internet.

       15            Q.    Over the Internet as opposed to through 

       16       university campus networks?

       17            A.    Over the Internet. 

       18            Q.    Okay, because if you look at your 

       19       declaration, and I think we marked that as Exhibit 

       20       2, take a look at paragraph No. 3 you say that one 

       21       of the areas that you've been asked to testify 

       22       about in this case is "the theoretical and 

       23       practical transfer speeds available on college and 

       24       university local area networks."  Do you see that?

       25            A.    Yes.



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            Q.    And my question is:  When you referred 

        3       to -- 

        4                  MR. GARBUS:  Excuse me, don't I see 

        5       paragraph 3 "and to the public generally"?  

        6       Haven't I read that correctly?

        7                  MR. HART:  Okay.  I'm sorry, I would 

        8       really like to ask the questions and not have you 

        9       testify. 

       10                  MR. GARBUS:  Well, I don't want you to 

       11       misstate.  

       12                  THE WITNESS:  No, I'm fine.

       13                  MR. HART:  Okay.  I haven't asked the 

       14       question yet, Marty.  If you have an objection --

       15                  MR. GARBUS:  You've read selectively 

       16       from the affidavit and you've implicated --

       17                  MR. HART:  Are you done?

       18                  MR. GARBUS:  -- and implied to the 

       19       witness -- 

       20                  MR. HART:  Are you done testifying?

       21                  MR. GARBUS:  No, I'm not. 

       22                  MR. HART:  Are you done coaching? 

       23                  MR. GARBUS:  And you have implied to 

       24       the witness --

       25                  MR. HART:  I haven't implied anything.  



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       I haven't asked the question yet.

        3                  MR. GARBUS:  -- what he said with 

        4       respect to the affidavit.  What I'm asking for is 

        5       an accurate reading of what the man has signed his 

        6       name to.

        7                  MR. HART:  Are you done now? 

        8                  MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead. 

        9                  MR. HART:  Thanks.  Sorry for that 

       10       again. 

       11            Q.    Paragraph 3.  We talked about 

       12       university networks in the sense that they weren't 

       13       connected through the Internet or the Internet was 

       14       not part of the intermediate chain in the transfer 

       15       process.  Right?

       16            A.    Right.

       17            Q.    And then separately we talked about 

       18       using the Internet.

       19            A.    That's right. 

       20            Q.    Right. 

       21            A.    And you asked me if I had any more to 

       22       say about networks defined generally.

       23            Q.    Right.  And you said you had been 

       24       contemplating the issue of transferring a 650-meg 

       25       file over the Internet in practical terms. 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            A.    In practical terms.

        3            Q.    Right.  And I guess the question that I 

        4       was trying to get to there was, have you also 

        5       contemplated the practical transfer times involved 

        6       with university local area networks not using the 

        7       Internet as part of the chain?

        8            A.    Some, but not beyond what we've already 

        9       covered, that there are shared networks and there 

       10       are switches within universities.  Nothing to add 

       11       to that.

       12            Q.    Okay.  Fair enough. 

       13                  Now, let's turn to the question about 

       14       what you've been contemplating in terms of the 

       15       practical transfer speeds available on the 

       16       Internet for a 650-meg file?

       17            A.    We touched on this earlier.  I observed 

       18       that what was considered a big transfer on the 

       19       Internet now was this file in the neighborhood of 

       20       8 megabytes, and that is a pretty sizable transfer 

       21       on the Internet today.

       22            Q.    And that's based on your earlier 

       23       testimony about looking at @Home and making 

       24       assumptions about why their file sizes are 8 meg?

       25            A.    Not making assumptions about, but 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       finding that was the biggest file I could find for 

        3       them to demonstrate their cable service.

        4            Q.    Okay. 

        5            A.    And as I said, that number is 

        6       consistent with what I would expect people to be 

        7       able to transfer over the Internet today.

        8                  So, the point here is that, and I think 

        9       I made this earlier, that it's two orders of 

       10       magnitude to get to 650 megabytes, a factor of 

       11       100.  That's restating what we've already talked 

       12       about. 

       13            Q.    Fair enough.

       14            A.    A number -- set of data consistent with 

       15       that is that today most people still have 28 

       16       kilobit modems, maybe they've got 56 kilobits.  

       17       It's a relatively few number of people that 

       18       actually have this megabit-per-second connection 

       19       that we're talking about some of us having.  So, 

       20       the majority of the people that are on the 

       21       Internet still have two orders of magnitude to 

       22       catch up with the high end. 

       23                  So, I asked myself the question:  Even 

       24       assuming that 1 megabit is enough to do a 

       25       650-megabyte download, again, that's an hour's 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       plus transfer, which is a sizable transfer, the 

        3       question, then, is how -- I've got two pieces of 

        4       data that suggest to me we need to have two orders 

        5       of magnitude improvement in the Internet's 

        6       backbone core capacity to accommodate commonplace 

        7       transfers of 650-megabytes files.  How long is it 

        8       going to be before we get to that point?  What 

        9       kind of changes is going to be necessary?

       10            Q.    On the Internet generally.

       11            A.    Yes, generally.  The only way I can 

       12       answer that question is to go back in time and see 

       13       how long did it take to do the two previous orders 

       14       of magnitude improvement.

       15            Q.    And how long did that take?

       16            A.    That was a ten-year process.

       17            Q.    In your experience, have improvements 

       18       increased in speed over time on the Internet? 

       19                  Let me rephrase that question because I 

       20       don't confuse speed with transfer time.

       21                  MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

       22       question.

       23                  MR. HART:  I just said that I would 

       24       rephrase it.  Thank you. 

       25            Q.    You were looking backwards to look at 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       how long certain levels of improvement took on the 

        3       Internet, and I guess my question in simple terms 

        4       is the rate of change that's appearing in 

        5       technology --

        6            A.    Is it getting faster, faster? 

        7            Q.    Yes.  That's my question. 

        8            A.    It's hard to say.  If you go back and 

        9       try to divide that time out, you find that in 

       10       1990, the backbone was made up mostly of -- 

       11       actually, let's go back a little farther than 

       12       that.  No, let's not do that. 

       13                  If you go back to 1990, the backbone 

       14       consisted mostly of 1-megabit-per-second links, 

       15       order of magnitude 1 megabit per second.  If you 

       16       go to 1995, you measured backbone capacity in the 

       17       10-megabit-per-second range, and now we're 

       18       measuring in the 100-megabit-per-second range.

       19            Q.    For backbone?

       20            A.    For the backbone.  So, we're seeing, at 

       21       least across -- with the intermediate point of 

       22       five years, a fairly steady increase in capacity.

       23            Q.    Do you have any understanding of what 

       24       projections are for backbone bandwidth increases, 

       25       say, over the next year to five years on the 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       Internet?

        3            A.    So, looking out, the gigabit is the 

        4       next one order of magnitude change and then we go 

        5       to 10 megabits, just to project out.  The 

        6       10-megabit-per-second work is in, I would call it, 

        7       the research advance development stage.  It's 

        8       still years out before that's going to be 

        9       commonplace.

       10            Q.    You mean commonplace in the home?

       11            A.    No, not in the home, in the backbone.

       12                  MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

       13       question. 

       14                  MR. HART:  Okay.  

       15                  THE WITNESS:  Could you restate the 

       16       question?  

       17                  MR. HART:  Read it back.  I'm sorry. 

       18                  (Whereupon, the last question is read 

       19       back by the reporter.)

       20                  MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Hart, if you want to 

       21       testify, swear yourself in.  Otherwise, allow the 

       22       witness to answer the question.

       23                  MR. HART:  Thank you, Mr. Garbus. 

       24                  Go ahead.

       25            A.    No, not in the home, in the backbone.



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            Q.    In the backbone on the Internet as 

        3       people use it in their homes today?

        4            A.    The backbone that people in their homes 

        5       connect to.

        6            Q.    Right.  As distinguished, for example, 

        7       from the local area networks that we were talking 

        8       about within universities and colleges?

        9            A.    That's correct.  Either you use the 

       10       Internet or you're limited to those set of people 

       11       that are connected to that local area network.

       12            Q.    Gotcha.

       13                  MR. GARBUS:  I would appreciate if 

       14       you'd stop saying "gotcha" after each question.  I 

       15       find it as disruptive as you found my use of the 

       16       telephone.

       17                  MR. HART:  Boy, you really are surly 

       18       this morning, Marty. 

       19            Q.    Any other observations on your 

       20       practical views of transfer speeds on the Internet 

       21       and what the future holds in that regard?

       22            A.    Nothing in particular.

       23            Q.    I would like to go back to the 

       24       university scenario for a couple of minutes with 

       25       the university networks that don't depend on the 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       Internet as part of the chain.  Okay?

        3            A.    Okay.

        4            Q.    If, for example, a whole bunch of 

        5       people were hypothetically transferring 650-meg 

        6       files over networks at Princeton, would that have 

        7       any effect, say, on the bandwidth or traffic on a 

        8       network, let's say, up at MIT or in Palo Alto at 

        9       another university where people might also be 

       10       engaged in the same thing?

       11            A.    No.

       12            Q.    Do you know how many university or 

       13       college students and other people that are around 

       14       universities and colleges and have access to 

       15       university and college networks there are in the 

       16       United States?

       17            A.    I don't know. 

       18            Q.    What?

       19            A.    I have no idea how many students or 

       20       faculty there are. 

       21            Q.    Now, the @Home/Excite portal that you 

       22       were talking about, that, to your knowledge, is a 

       23       commercial, legitimate portal.  Right? 

       24            A.    That's a commercial entity, yeah.

       25            Q.    Do you have any knowledge whatsoever 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       about the Internet practices of people that engage 

        3       in sharing unauthorized copies of content?

        4            A.    Do I have any practical knowledge?

        5                  MR. HART:  Let me read it back, because 

        6       I may have misphrased the question.  I apologize 

        7       if I did.

        8                  (Whereupon, the last question is read 

        9       back by the reporter.)

       10                  MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form.

       11            A.    I'm not sure what it means to be an 

       12       "Internet practice." 

       13            Q.    Let me try it this way:  Are you aware 

       14       that there are people that use the Internet that 

       15       are fairly sophisticated computer users?

       16                  MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

       17       question. 

       18                  Go ahead, if you can answer it.

       19            A.    Am I aware of their being sophisticated 

       20       computer users? 

       21            Q.    Yes. 

       22            A.    Yes.

       23            Q.    Are you aware whether there are people 

       24       that are sophisticated computer users that can 

       25       take advantage of the latest technologies in terms 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       of bandwidth and computational power of computers?

        3                  MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

        4       the question.  It's so silly. 

        5                  The witness can answer.

        6            A.    If they can afford to.

        7            Q.    Do you have any knowledge whatsoever 

        8       about pirated content files being transferred on 

        9       the Internet?

       10            A.    None first hand.

       11            Q.    What do you know anecdotally?

       12            A.    Pirated files.  I guess I don't know of 

       13       any pirated files.  Apparently, something is 

       14       happening in that the MPA has taken action, but 

       15       that's the extent of it. 

       16            Q.    Are you aware of the legal 

       17       controversies surrounding the so-called file 

       18       sharing of MPEG-3 files involving audio 

       19       recordings?

       20                  MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  It has no 

       21       relationship to this case.

       22                  (Whereupon, the last question is read 

       23       back by the reporter.)

       24            A.    I'm aware of it.

       25            Q.    Are you aware whether there is any kind 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       of traffic, say, in illegitimate copies of 

        3       computer software application programs via the 

        4       Internet?

        5            A.    Not that I'm aware of. 

        6            Q.    Do you have any knowledge that there 

        7       exists, essentially, an underground market on the 

        8       Internet through which people trade copyrighted 

        9       content by so-called file sharing or file 

       10       transfer?

       11                  MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

       12       the question.  It's not an appropriate way to ask 

       13       the question.  If you want to testify as a witness  

       14       and you want to swear yourself in, I'll allow the 

       15       witness to answer the question.

       16            A.    I'm not aware.

       17            Q.    Now, given what you said about 

       18       increases in Internet backbone bandwidth, do 

       19       advances in compression technology offer a partial 

       20       solution, in your estimation?

       21                  MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

       22       question.

       23            A.    Partial solution to what? 

       24            Q.    To traffic -- in other words --

       25                  MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       the question.

        3                  MR. HART:  Fine, Marty. 

        4            A.    To the extent compression can reduce 

        5       the size of the data, that would mean there's less 

        6       data to transmit, it can be transmitted in less 

        7       time.

        8            Q.    Excellent.  That was precisely what I 

        9       was asking.  I thank you for that.  That was 

       10       eloquent.

       11                  MR. HART:  I want to take five minutes 

       12       and just see if I have -- what I have left, I want 

       13       to consolidate it.

       14                  MR. GARBUS:  I have a 12:30 lunch that 

       15       I have to leave for at 12:15.  I advised 

       16       Mr. Cooper of that beforehand.

       17                  MR. HART:  Right.  And given the fact 

       18       that I was taking this deposition, you didn't see 

       19       fit to advise me of it, but that's okay, Marty.

       20                  MR. GARBUS:  My memory is I did advise 

       21       you at the beginning that there was a 12:30 lunch, 

       22       and I think it's on the record.

       23                  THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Off the record, 

       24       12:07.

       25                  (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.)



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2                  THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Back on the record, 

        3       12:12.

        4            Q.    Do you have any knowledge of what the 

        5       projections are for improvements in video 

        6       compression technology as we sit here today?

        7            A.    No.

        8            Q.    Do you own a DVD player?

        9            A.    Yes, I do.

       10            Q.    Is it a computer-based DVD player?

       11            A.    No.

       12            Q.    Or a set top box?

       13            A.    It sits next to my television. 

       14            Q.    Have you ever tried to copy a movie 

       15       from your DVD player?

       16            A.    No.

       17            Q.    Would you know how to do that?

       18            A.    With the help of my 17-year-old son I 

       19       could probably do it.

       20            Q.    Why do you say that?

       21                  MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  It's obvious. 

       22       It's a silly question.  Go ahead.

       23            Q.    Do you adopt Mr. Garbus's statement 

       24       that it's obvious?

       25            A.    Yes.



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2            Q.    Okay.  Why is that so?

        3            A.    Because it's only 17-year-old kids that 

        4       understand how to run my stereo system.

        5            Q.    Have you written or published anything 

        6       that's inconsistent with any of the testimony that 

        7       you've given us here today?

        8            A.    Not that I know of.

        9            Q.    Assuming that the electronic transfer 

       10       of movies in digital form were feasible, do you 

       11       regard that as something that would be harmful to 

       12       the copyright owners of movies?

       13                  MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

       14       the question.  That's not for this witness to 

       15       decide.  He can answer it, if he wants.  He's not 

       16       a lawyer and he's not a judge.

       17            A.    I wouldn't consider it not necessarily 

       18       harmful.

       19            Q.    Why is that?

       20            A.    I'm sure there is a wealth of business 

       21       opportunities in delivering movies over the 

       22       Internet.

       23            Q.    You mean with authority of the 

       24       copyright owners?

       25                  MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       the question.  If you want to testify, Mr. Hart, 

        3       why don't you swear yourself in.

        4                  MR. HART:  Thank you, Judge Garbus.

        5                  THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, the question 

        6       again was?

        7            Q.    You're last answer was, and we can have 

        8       it read back, that there were a wealth of business 

        9       opportunities.  And my question was in light of 

       10       that last answer, is that based on the assumption 

       11       that that would involve the authority of the 

       12       copyright owner?

       13            A.    I'm not sure what it means to involve 

       14       the authority of the copyright owner.

       15            Q.    What did you mean by a "wealth of 

       16       business opportunities," then?

       17            A.    My only point was that the Internet is 

       18       another way of delivering content and surely 

       19       someone will figure out how to take advantage of 

       20       that.

       21                  MR. HART:  I don't have any further 

       22       questions.  Thank you for your candor and your 

       23       time, Professor.

       24                  THE WITNESS:  You're welcome.

       25                  THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Off the record, 



        1                    LARRY PETERSON

        2       12:15.

        3                  (Whereupon, the deposition 

        4       of LARRY PETERSON is concluded at 12:15p.m.)






       10                          o O o



















        2                      J U R A T


        4              I DO HEREBY CERTIFY that I have read 

        5       the foregoing transcript of my deposition 

        6       testimony and I certify that it is true and 

        7       correct to the best of my knowledge, subject
        8       to the changes, if any, shown on the attached
        9       page(s).



       12                       ___________________________
                                         LARRY PETERSON




       17       BEFORE ME ON THIS ________

       18       DAY OF _______________, 2000.

       20       _____________________________                                  
                        NOTARY PUBLIC








        2                 C E R T I F I C A T E


        4           I, JOMANNA CASTANO, a Certified Shorthand 

        5       Reporter and Notary Public, do hereby certify

        6       that prior to the commencement of the 

        7       examination LARRY PETERSON was sworn by me

        8       to testify to the truth, the whole truth

        9       and nothing but the truth.

       10           I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing is a 

       11       true and accurate transcript of the testimony as 

       12       taken stenographically by and before me at the 

       13       time, place and on the date hereinbefore set 

       14       forth.

       15            I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither of 

       16       counsel nor attorney for any party in this action 

       17       and that I am not interested in the event nor 

       18       outcome of this litigation.



       22                      JOMANNA CASTANO
                     Certification Number 2216930
       23            My Commission Expires August 19, 2003


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